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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.07.10 13:59:00 -
[1]
CCP said that this issue has been brought up in the past, but has been rejected due to performance reasons. Moving items around causes a heavy load on the servers and making guns easier to reload might encourage players to do it even more frequently. There are concerns that during large fleet battles, all ammunition will be changed at the call of a fleet commander, which would cause an enormous spike on the servers.
However due to the popularity of this feature, CCP will confer with the server/database teams to see if this feature can be implemented and how it would affect performance.
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email
"It's not worth doing something unless you are doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing." |
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Dakry helios
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:07:00 -
[2]
Must put in my two cents on this one being amarr.
it would be 'nice' to see the feature implemented as currently trying to change crystals can be a pain in the arse where by changing from one to another, plus tryin to avoid the annoying unload to cargo option and various others is a pain. Though i can also see the problem with the spikes the server would suffer from so heres only a suggestion.
Is it possible to have a shortcut for the change of ammo or a form of devision in the cargos of ships for it so you can put your ammo into a form of catagory, e.g. slots for ammo then via short cuts you can chage it. even if you had a sort of multiple slot layout for ammo e.g. every gun being loaded with two or three types of ammo and the player must click on the type for each gun to choose it. Only a suggestion but it could work :D
Dak's |
plummet
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:44:00 -
[3]
a staggered reload would be ok with me as long as i clic switch
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:54:00 -
[4]
If this database excuse was really true, then why can 1400mm artillery only hold 10 rounds of EMP?
_______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Doc Extropy
Gallente Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:56:00 -
[5]
A very welcome feature.
This WILL affect PvE (I guess) more than it does affect PvP, because in PvP you always have a very specific role while running Level 4 missions often really calls for two (or, in my case, three) types of ammunition... Long Range T2, Short Range T2 for taking out those nasty battleship rats and standard / faction ammunition for removing the blobs of cruisers.
How about some "update ... where ... = ..."? ---
Skill queue now! Nerf skillpoint loss and half done skills! WE ARE PAYING CUSTOMERS AND DESERVE MAXIMUM COMFORT! |
Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:23:00 -
[6]
I've given an idea of both reducing client and server overhead in my post here on the Features and Suggestions section. -
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Threv Echandari
K Directorate
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:26:00 -
[7]
I am so supportive of this I just don't have Words. even a staggered "reload all" would be nice. ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
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Denaris Torington
Caldari The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:56:00 -
[8]
Hmmmpphhh.....I love the idea, but maybe they can slightly adjust the idea with an added time, but not quite the full time it would take to normally switch. ya know, instead of 10 seconds for switching per weapon, maybe 20 total, for all weapons.
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Elektrea
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Doc Extropy Edited by: Doc Extropy on 10/07/2008 16:58:23 A very welcome feature.
This WILL affect PvE (I guess) more than it does affect PvP, because in PvP you always have a very specific role while running Level 4 missions often really calls for two (or, in my case, three) types of ammunition... Long Range T2, Short Range T2 for taking out those nasty battleship rats and standard / faction ammunition for removing the blobs of cruisers.
Sorry but no. Most Pvpers carry more then 1 type of ammo, I personally like to carry 3-4 different types
Happy HOur Minning and Industry
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Xaen
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:20:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Xaen on 10/07/2008 18:20:05
Originally by: CCP Wrangler CCP said that this issue has been brought up in the past, but has been rejected due to performance reasons. Moving items around causes a heavy load on the servers and making guns easier to reload might encourage players to do it even more frequently. There are concerns that during large fleet battles, all ammunition will be changed at the call of a fleet commander, which would cause an enormous spike on the servers.
However due to the popularity of this feature, CCP will confer with the server/database teams to see if this feature can be implemented and how it would affect performance.
Sounds like they're confusing the results with the implementation.
We can already switch manually one at a time.
Why not make a function that does that? Right clicking every highslot, the meticulously selecting the the new type is a tedious usability problem. The client could simply request it on the behalf of the user.
Unless shortening the time between change requests would actually cause a performance problems. But I'm already pretty quick at kicking them off.
Not to mention it's infuriating to mis click the wrong type and have to reload that one again.
But not surprisingly, usability takes a huge back seat to everything for some reason. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There are concerns that during large fleet battles, all ammunition will be changed at the call of a fleet commander, which would cause an enormous spike on the servers.
Umm, this already happens during fleet battles, the FC will commonly announce 'guys we're warping in at 20km range, load your antimatter/EMP/multifrequency'. The only difference is that currently we have to click each weapon individually to swap out the ammo types, and surely its more of a server load if each player is going through the process of click gun 1 > swap ammo > click gun 2 > swap ammo > click gun 3 > swap ammo.....through a whole rack of guns, rather than a single select all > swap ammo option? -----------
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:32:00 -
[12]
I understand the concerns CCP has, but frankly, I don't care. Making a simple, common action take as much as 8x as long as it should to cut down on lag slightly is a terrible solution, and user-unfriendliness should never be encouraged. The single most overdue UI fix, which is saying quite a lot. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Daelin Blackleaf
The Reclaimed
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:33:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 10/07/2008 18:33:34
Weapon Grouping
One button to fire all weapons grouped together, one button to reload them, one button to change ammunition type.
But....
For turret groups of the same type calculations could be run for one turret and multiplied by the number of turrets in the group. Resulting in 6-7 times less load in many cases. When loading ammo only a single transaction is made. The group grabs X ammo for it's Y turrets, all of whom will have fired the same number of shots, meaning only one transaction takes place.
One issue I can see here is with t2 and faction crystals. This should be solvable by having each crystal loaded to the weapon group take damage simultaneously (balanced to provide the same number of shots/crystal on average as now). Crystals with the same amount of damage could be made to stack, and a weapon group would only load it's turrets with such crystals if there are enough crystals in one stack to load all turrets.
Currently turret firing eight turrets is basically:
Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 1 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 2 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 3 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 4 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 5 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 6 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 7 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 8
I'd have thought server load would be decreased if, when all turrets are the same to have:
Firing and Damage calculation multiplied by 8 and application of stat changes for turret group 1
[tl;dr: add weapon grouping and have it essentially make groups of the same weapon into one big gun with one big ammo hold.]
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 10/07/2008 18:33:34
Weapon Grouping
One button to fire all weapons grouped together, one button to reload them, one button to change ammunition type.
But....
For turret groups of the same type calculations could be run for one turret and multiplied by the number of turrets in the group. Resulting in 6-7 times less load in many cases. When loading ammo only a single transaction is made. The group grabs X ammo for it's Y turrets, all of whom will have fired the same number of shots, meaning only one transaction takes place.
One issue I can see here is with t2 and faction crystals. This should be solvable by having each crystal loaded to the weapon group take damage simultaneously (balanced to provide the same number of shots/crystal on average as now). Crystals with the same amount of damage could be made to stack, and a weapon group would only load it's turrets with such crystals if there are enough crystals in one stack to load all turrets.
Currently turret firing eight turrets is basically:
Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 1 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 2 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 3 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 4 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 5 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 6 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 7 Firing and Damage calculation and application of stat changes for turret 8
I'd have thought server load would be decreased if, when all turrets are the same to have:
Firing and Damage calculation multiplied by 8 and application of stat changes for turret group 1
[tl;dr: add weapon grouping and have it essentially make groups of the same weapon into one big gun with one big ammo hold.]
I could live with that too. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
isAzmodeus
Low Security Military Excursions
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Posted - 2008.07.10 22:10:00 -
[15]
Just multiplying 1 turret's result across all 8 is a horrible idea. Do you want to be on the opposite side of the BS that manages to get 8 wrecking hits all at once?
However, reloading all 8 at once is a great idea. --------------------------------- The Seven- Blowing up someone near you. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.10 22:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: isAzmodeus Just multiplying 1 turret's result across all 8 is a horrible idea. Do you want to be on the opposite side of the BS that manages to get 8 wrecking hits all at once?
However, reloading all 8 at once is a great idea.
Nope, but I'd love to be facing the battleship who gets 8 misses 1 km into falloff. I've got nothing against making damage burstier - it's a good counter to the successive HP buffs. It's not like even 8x 1400mm artys wrecking will actually kill you. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.07.11 00:14:00 -
[17]
No matter what the disconnect is on CCP's end, it has to get resolved. This can't go on. Changing ammo is the most frustratingly bad situation. Sounds to me from Wrangler's minutes that the transactions between modules and the database need to be rethought somewhat.
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.11 01:08:00 -
[18]
Just stagger it, rather than making it simultaneous. When you get used to doing it you can do eight guns in just a few seconds, so whatever load that causes is already present. How fast the ammo changes isn't necessarily the issue, it's the effort involved, so an option that loads the guns over the course of a few seconds would do. -
DesuSigs |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.11 05:33:00 -
[19]
Hmm if it causes to much server lag I think we can do without it.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
ElfeGER
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 07:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There are concerns that during large fleet battles, all ammunition will be changed at the call of a fleet commander, which would cause an enormous spike on the servers.
It has always been that way. It's just an opportunity to handle it better on the server side.
Why is it creating so much load in the first place should be the question.
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Dihania
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: plummet a staggered reload would be ok with me as long as i clic switch
one click is what we want most, not all at once ad literam. so make it one click, but switch the ammo in loop.
. EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs. |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:56:00 -
[22]
Last night I had this dream where I did a close reading of this issue and in this dream it was revealed to me that there was a fearful symmetry to CCP's logic of ammo switching and another, deeply hidden feature: the much requested skill que.
Let me elaborate.
If CCP fears that a skill que is unnecessary or detrimental, we can re-articulate this position as follows: CCP discriminates against features that streamline or enhance mundane tasks because ease of use doesn't encourage players from playing while the opposite is in fact true. Thus if a feature enhances playibility, and if a reload all is a feature that enhances playability, then the only logical conclusion is that we must avoid this feature because in reality it could mean that the fans play less, not more.
QED. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.11 10:09:00 -
[23]
please!
hell even something to fix 50% of my crystals from not loading.....
watching gun 1 load, and then gun 2 load oh and when gun 2 loaded it stole the crystal from gun 1, and then gun 3 loads, then gun 4 loads stealing the crystal from gun 3....
it sucks
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.07.11 10:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: isAzmodeus Just multiplying 1 turret's result across all 8 is a horrible idea. Do you want to be on the opposite side of the BS that manages to get 8 wrecking hits all at once?
However, reloading all 8 at once is a great idea.
You don't just use the current formula and then x 8, you'd pick from the possible damage range using a vitual dice eg 10% chance of doing 50%, 10%75%, 20% for 90%, 20% for 100%, 10% for 105%, 20% 110%, 10% 120%, the allow the client computer work out Which shots were scratches wreakings etc.
It'd save tons of work for the server, but you'd never get 8 wreakings :) --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.11 15:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: darkmancer
It'd save tons of work for the server, but you'd almost never get 8 wreakings :)
Little fix, probabilities will bite you in the ass sometimes.
_______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Ulviirala Vauryndar
Cohortes Stellaris ParadoXon Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.11 16:27:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ulviirala Vauryndar on 11/07/2008 16:27:34
How much of a difference would it be to have one player-issued action to reload all turrets with another type of mission compared to the "Reload All" feature compared to eight player-issued actions to change or reload ammo on all (max 8) turrets one by one?
Items are moved around in either case. Maybe trying to improve the way it is done (code-wise) would help and it would be less of a concern for all the cases above.
The only after-taste I can imagine are Amarr drooling all over the place.
Unfortunately, your signature is not 22239 bytes, it exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches I fail, regards to Cortes - Ulvi |
Ambrosious Martin
Son of Man
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Posted - 2008.07.11 16:41:00 -
[27]
Lulz at CCP for beleiving there fears are not already true... Any good FC should already be commanding fleets to reload on command, and the frustration on the server is accumulated by the some 250+ pilots in battle to switch 8 guns manually. Would the server better handle the process of one command 250+ times or 16 commands times 250+?
And seriouselly why would you ignore your paying customers with a function they have been asking for for almost 5 years? Just to ****y to beleive they wont leave you for something better?
Im personally on the side that CCP is really unwilling to admit and fix there Ruff-Neck coding 10 years ago, with a language that has changed, and evolved into a much better system than it was.
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Kowaii Hitori
StoneDogS Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.11 18:59:00 -
[28]
Lag is going to be generated. Period. Actually the only part that will create lag is in the hard drives or ram of the servers. Reason that this is not an issue is being that the storage medias are gonna store the change. So why does it matter if it happens now or 1 time in the 10 to 15 seconds it's going to take.
Also, everyone's ROF is different. The lag is going to be staggered this way anyhow. Plus the reload time is different as well for each gun.
Actually, if nothing else with some packet optimization, you can actually improve the lag problem.
To summarize, I don't see the problem in implementing the high's ammo charges in a single command. You can actually generate less lag where lag is going to happen.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.11 19:33:00 -
[29]
Sugestion: Allow turrets to be loaded with multiple types of ammo at once, and let people change which is firing all at once.
So for example, my Neutron Blasters would be loaded 50% Null and 50% Gallente Navy Antimatter. And I could choose which one fired with a quick toggle.
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Matalino
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.11 20:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There are concerns that during large fleet battles, all ammunition will be changed at the call of a fleet commander, which would cause an enormous spike on the servers.
Umm, this already happens during fleet battles, the FC will commonly announce 'guys we're warping in at 20km range, load your antimatter/EMP/multifrequency'. The only difference is that currently we have to click each weapon individually to swap out the ammo types, and surely its more of a server load if each player is going through the process of click gun 1 > swap ammo > click gun 2 > swap ammo > click gun 3 > swap ammo.....through a whole rack of guns, rather than a single select all > swap ammo option?
That about sums it up.
Perhaps in their review of adding this feature they might be able to find away to optimize the process so that it is less taxing on the server as a whole, by processing all of the changes together on the server side as well as on the client side.
Anyways, I expect that people will switch ammo types just as often. The main difference will be how fustrating it is to do so.
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