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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:37:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl Well if you shoot empty wreck concord kills you. If you salvage empty wreck nothing happens. Intresting isnt it?
Indeed. What do you think of my "salvaging job" idea above?
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:38:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Heiwa So I bust your mission with a 4 mil (max) salvage boat. "Steal" "your" salvage and get flagged. You blow up said boat. I then get to come back in my WTFPWNMobile and pop your PvE BS, getting far more than the few million you would have "lost" if you had just let me salvage your wrecks in the first place?
Sounds fine to me.
Cool. As I said above, it is still a matter of choice for the mission runner if they want to take that chance for the sake of a bit of salvage.
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Heiwa
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:49:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
Cool. As I said above, it is still a matter of choice for the mission runner if they want to take that chance for the sake of a bit of salvage.
Regardless of my opinion on the matter, I doubt CCP will really change things regardless of the verbal outcry over this (which has been considerable). The reason requires a history lesson. Back in the day, taking stuff from a can (in this example, a miner's ore) never flagged you. Miners complained that they had no recourse for when this happened, and that the ore thieves had free reign, especially in high sec.
After a great deal of complaining, CCP added flagging to the game so that if you stole from someone's can you were flagged to them and their corp, allowing the formerly helpless miners to fight back.
The result of this wasn't a reduction in theft, but an increase as now the high-sec pirates could take your ore, and, if the miner was "foolish" enough to engage them, the thief could come back in a better ship and pop the miner. Hence the birth of "can flipping".
So now the complaints are about this. It's the same people complaining, mostly because CCP gave them exactly what they said they wanted.
If salvaging wrecks flagged the "theif" to the "owner", I'm pretty sure you'd see exactly the same thing happen. Whether you like it or not, whether it's "fair" or not, mission runners are probably better off with salvaging working exactly as it is now.
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Aphoticus
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:51:00 -
[64]
Everyone makes some valid points (those that are actually making a point).
Perhaps a solution would be something along the lines of permits to salvage.
Regardless of the points made, a wreck really doesn't belong to someone until someone makes a claim.
If you did not have the skill to salvage it, there is no value, why would the salvage skill, in and of it self constitute ownership over something which has no value?
So, my solution would be this, if someone produces a wreck by means of combat and takes the time to rename it, thus assigning rights to said wreck, then we have a permit to salvage (so to speak) and then can be singled out from the rest of the junk that really should be cleaned up by scavangers.
Just an idea.
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Heiwa
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:58:00 -
[65]
A thought occurred to me (sorry to spam the thread), but according to one of the live dev blogs, and I'm sorry I don't remember which, CCP has gone on record saying they are unhappy with the chance-based approach to salvaging.
Right now a salvage "thief" is generally able to get away with a large amount of salvage because they have a fast ship with the high slots filled with Salvager mods, and the mission runner is generally running with either all weapons or maybe a single Salvager.
What CCP said is that they would like to change the Salvaging skill to work thusly (and I may be para-quoting here):
1. Make a Salvage attempt always succeed, but take a fairly long time (like 30 seconds to a minute). 2. Change the Salvaging skill to reduce the cycle time of the Salvager module.
This would put the mission runner and the salvage "thief" on more equal footing, so having six or eight Salvager mods doesn't give you any real advantage except possibly grabbing multiple wrecks at once (which, in my experience, is fairly rare unless you are talking about frig wrecks).
This arrangement might be more palatable to the mission runners, and wouldn't expose them to the "can flipping" problem.
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Shanur
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.15 13:03:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
1. Bounty ū not every ship has a bounty. The only ships that don't have a bounty in my experience are rogue drones. 2. Loot ū not every ship has loot. All ships that don't drop loot have bounties however 3. Salvage ū often salvage is the only thing you get for your expenditure on ammo. If it is, you are running the wrong missions. Drones are one of the worst rat types to salvage because their chance to drop anything of value (or anything better than crap) is so low. Thei only saving grace is that they can indeed drop pretty much any salvage item, but still you'd do better to instead hunt the rat type that has the best chance to drop that salvage item.
Why is it so hard for you to understand that I created the wreck and if you salvage it you are in effect stealing my isk?
Why is it so hard for you to understand that this risk of being stolen from is oftencase the only risk and drawback high security missioning has? You sound as if you feel you have a right to totally unobstructed ISKing. All high reward operations have drawbacks to them, often in the form of player intervention. This is that drawback in your case.
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Squably
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.15 13:05:00 -
[67]
whine whine nag nag blahdiblah
Works as intended, have fun playing WOW Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
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Dexion Slayer
Minmatar Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.15 13:44:00 -
[68]
Oeh please do ! Ill shoot any blinky in my mission! and ill wait for their pwn mobile too. And i will also tell the 2 logistics that are cloaked in my mish to wait patiently..Baiting the baiters since '08.
hehe remember the remote rep phoon Sol? :)
But ont he topic of flagging for salvage i really dun care, it would be a more awesome way to get ppl to shoot me in their missions.. So for that i would agree even I dont agree with any of the points made. I welcome any change that will bring easier pvp(sorta) to my EVE.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.15 13:52:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus We're already compensated, yes?
1. Bounty – not every ship has a bounty. 2. Loot – not every ship has loot.
Irrelevant. You are still compensated. Quote: 3. Salvage – often salvage is the only thing you get for your expenditure on ammo.
Flat out wrong. Quote: Seems we're not always compensated
Flat out wrong. Quote: someone can come along and steal your only compensation with impunity.
The only way this would be the case is if you're ratting, and then we're not talking about ninja salvagers intruding on your mission area any more, so it's completely irrelevant to what's being discussed here. Quote: Why is it so hard for you to understand that I created the wreck and if you salvage it you are in effect stealing my isk?
Because you're wrong. It is not your salvage, so nothing is stolen from you. Why is it so hard for you to understand that you're already being compensated in a number of ways for creating that wreck. If you want more than that – if you want to increase your rewards – you also have to face the nature of the increased risks that come with it. You have to earn it by beating other players to the punch, and you already have every single advantage in that competition.
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General Urlana
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Posted - 2008.07.15 13:58:00 -
[70]
Ahh the salvage whine. I got Angels Extravaganza twice over the weekend and sure enough there's someone in the system scanning for Angels. Sneaky person quickly salvaged the important ships while i was going to get my salvager. Not the biggest issue but considering it's a lvl4 they probably walked off with quite a bit of isk in salvage.
I make enough that i don't really care though. Just depressing to walk into the room and see lots of cans sitting around that weren't there before but rather nice little triangles.
I see in some regards how people complain because your wreck is marked by your corps ticker. Salvaging that leaves a can. It would be fun if this was considered some sort of crime. add some high sec risk to it. See how fast they can salvage before you decide to pop their little ship hehe
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Smantha Dering
Caldari Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.15 14:15:00 -
[71]
It's more work than you realize to find missions, a lot of prep works goes into it. Also for me to find your specific mission, very hard. Finding missions is very much like casting a net and then pulling in what ever you find. We also can't use tractors to take the wrecks. Stop crying and go print more isk in your missions. Like I said, I ran missions before ninja salvaging, you've got it good with just the bounties, and I never bothered to loot or salvage. BTW I ninja salvage for fun, the isk isn't as consistant or as lucrative and I often run my own missions so I can stay rich. So lets be honest here, you just think you should be able to make as much isk with as little risk and effort as possible.
Mostly I do this for exactly the response you're giving by creating this post. Maybe you should join us for a while, you'll see how much fun we have working together, focusing on the career that ccp gave us. You know that right? This was meant to be a viable career.
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Timaios
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.15 14:26:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
Originally by: Night Tripper so what your saying is, if I go along an trash someone else's car, it would then belong to me?
blowing other people's things up, is no legal basis for private property acquisition!
Read the last couple of posts. I agree with you and I was actually thinking about this, but as it stands it seems that if you trash someone elses car it becomes anyones.
Okay.
First, you comment on maritime laws not having to apply in EVE, because this is not real life. Fair enough. But then you must also refrain from "burglar coming to your house" or "wrecking my car and it becomes anyones". No real life morals or analogies here, thank you. Just plain balance viewpoint.
Getting flagged by salvaging might decrease the amount of salvage available on the market and would most likely destroy a mini-profession CCP worked to create. It doesn't seem very constructive. The amount of salvage available has been increased and it's volume decreased so that the rig prices would be where CCP intended them to be. In that light, the system sounds pretty fair. From the income viewpoint the amount of ISK one earns from a mission was simply increased due to introduction of salvaging. I'm assuming that nobody would dare to claim that the missions were utterly unprofitable before salvaging. Adding salvaging as an another risk-free income source to the missions would rather be unbalanced.
There are always mechanisms to hurt the other players, should someone do something you do not like. Sadly, in some cases it may have quite steep consequences, such as having to suicide gank a salvager. But, it's still doable. I can, however, see that hiding in an NPC corp and being impossible to wardec is in a sense abusing the system. But the new players still need a base which keeps them at least somehow safe from random wardecs.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.15 15:04:00 -
[73]
I can't believe I'm not in this thread! OP, in the future, I demand that you send me some type of notification of your failure to post a valid argument to my profession.
We're Recruiting! |
Billy Sastard
Amarr Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2008.07.15 15:13:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Billy Sastard on 15/07/2008 15:20:21
Originally by: Heiwa So I bust your mission with a 4 mil (max) salvage boat. "Steal" "your" salvage and get flagged. You blow up said boat. I then get to come back in my WTFPWNMobile and pop your PvE BS, getting far more than the few million you would have "lost" if you had just let me salvage your wrecks in the first place?
Sounds fine to me.
I support this post.
We went through this years ago when can flagging was added. Yes folks, in the old days anyone could take from any can with impunity, and no aggression flagging occurred! But then miners started whining on the forums about how ore theives were taking all their hard work, so CCP added theft flagging to cans. Immediately afterward the same miners started crying because all the mean 'greifers' started use the can flagging rules to trick them into aggression giving the 'greifer' free kills.
OP, a question to you... When someone takes from your wrecks do you fire on them? I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you do not, because (the limb again) I assume you are a smart player and know that the person is just trying to get you to fire on them so that they can retaliate. So lets say CCP does start flagging wrecks, will you start popping the ninja salvagers so that they can come back in pvp ships and explode your mission running ship? -=^=-
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Ozmodan
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.07.15 16:03:00 -
[75]
Salvage rules are simple and work fine.
Everything belongs to CCP, you really own nothing.
If you are having problems with people salvaging your loot and that bothers you, an intelligent player would get the message that this is not a good area to missions in, perhaps it is time to move to another agent.
All your post is, is a whine because someone is making you change locations. Change is good, you should try it sometime. Learners permit still current |
Jana Cova
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Posted - 2008.07.15 16:08:00 -
[76]
I forgot all about this post, I think I'll head over to Dodixie and practice my ship scanning techniques to join in the fun. I hear salvage makes a nice reward for successfully tracking down a missioner.
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Gatu
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.15 16:21:00 -
[77]
Part of the fun and challenge of playing an MMO is interacting and competing against other people in realtime. This doesn't always take the form of pew pew. And it should rarely take the form of calling mommy (CCP) and whining that someone has broken your toys. Most often what is called for is simply using the existing game mechanics to solve whatever problems you perceive there to be in a new and fun way.
In this particular instance, a variety of solutions have been suggested, ranging from shooting the wrecks ("If I can't have them, no one will!") to doing missions where there are less folks salvaging (psuedo-instances) to missioning in low-sec where you can shoot anyone who enters your mission at your leisure ("I'm a carebear with teeth! Honest!").
Given that there are a host of ways to avoid the problem you find so vexing, and that you've failed completely to employ these or other innovative approaches to solving your problem, I can only conclude that you aren't really interested in a solution so much as a public display of your sweet, sweet tears.
I applaud your courage, sir.
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Druadan
Aristotle Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.15 17:08:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Druadan on 15/07/2008 17:08:17
Originally by: Billy Sastard Edited by: Billy Sastard on 15/07/2008 15:20:21
Originally by: Heiwa So I bust your mission with a 4 mil (max) salvage boat. "Steal" "your" salvage and get flagged. You blow up said boat. I then get to come back in my WTFPWNMobile and pop your PvE BS, getting far more than the few million you would have "lost" if you had just let me salvage your wrecks in the first place?
Sounds fine to me.
I support this post.
We went through this years ago when can flagging was added. Yes folks, in the old days anyone could take from any can with impunity, and no aggression flagging occurred! But then miners started whining on the forums about how ore theives were taking all their hard work, so CCP added theft flagging to cans. Immediately afterward the same miners started crying because all the mean 'greifers' started use the can flagging rules to trick them into aggression giving the 'greifer' free kills.
OP, a question to you... When someone takes from your wrecks do you fire on them? I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you do not, because (the limb again) I assume you are a smart player and know that the person is just trying to get you to fire on them so that they can retaliate. So lets say CCP does start flagging wrecks, will you start popping the ninja salvagers so that they can come back in pvp ships and explode your mission running ship?
This.
If salvage flagging is added, then I might actually be persuaded to steal people's salvage.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.15 17:20:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Druadan If salvage flagging is added, then I might actually be persuaded to steal people's salvage.
Why not just scan them out and steal their loot?
We're Recruiting! |
Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.07.15 17:57:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 15/07/2008 18:01:29
Originally by: Elysarian Since starting playing Eve again (when I last played all you got from wrecks was loot) I've always assumed that the salvage "laws" are similar to maritime salvage laws in that the wreck isn't the property of anyone until someone boards it (in Eve's case: until someone uses a salvager on it).
What does strike me as odd is that looting the wreck gives kill rights - surely the modules/cargo are part of the wreck under salvage laws?
*waits for flame*
That is why I have said in the past that mission runners are lucky that they at least get aggro rights if the can is looted. Are wreck by definition is garbage and therfore open for pludering. If I was not in my corp I would salvage and take loot, so like Dotard said above if you ever see me in your deadspace I will be blinking red shortly...just wait.
Slade
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self" |
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Dosgar
Caldari Rude Boys Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.07.15 18:02:00 -
[81]
I can't believe this thread is still going...
Works as intended. Move to quieter systems if it bugs you all so much.
God, how did people cope when wrecks and salvage weren't even in game?
---
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Druadan
Aristotle Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.15 19:01:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Druadan on 15/07/2008 19:00:59
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Originally by: Druadan If salvage flagging is added, then I might actually be persuaded to steal people's salvage.
Why not just scan them out and steal their loot?
Because my way they will see a rise in harassment after their whine is put through, teaching them that whining like little bftches on the forum doesn't always mean they get the protection they clamour for.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.15 19:04:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Druadan Because my way they will see a rise in harassment after their whine is put through, teaching them that whining like little bftches on the forum doesn't always mean they get the protection they clamour for.
This man knows what he wants.
(See, Self-Gratification Engineers? I'm trying to protect you from people like this!)
We're Recruiting! |
Propex
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.16 08:18:00 -
[84]
Suddenly Ninjas endorses this Product and/or Service.
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Shanur
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.16 14:57:00 -
[85]
Hmm. Somehow i am starting to get curious about ninja salvaging as well. What would be a good ship to do it in? I'm guessing a frigate because with no tracs you have to rely on speed. So should i think inty for the speed or CovOps for the probe bonusses?
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Xaen
Caldari Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.16 15:09:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Marlenus Edited by: Marlenus on 13/07/2008 18:12:03 Not yours. Thus, no theft.
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecksą. This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you wonĘt always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesnĘt matter who just blew it up.
(This quote is kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Reposting the same garbage isn't contributing anything to the argument.
Also, you should realize that GMs have not power to do anything other than follow the rules they're given. So it must be taken as a given that they cannot do anything but parrot the policies they've been told to. In short, they're not capable of contributing anything useful to the discussion either because their powers to not extend to game design or potential changes.
If you're not quoting something said recently uttered by a current game designer, you're contributing nothing to the discussion either. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.16 15:41:00 -
[87]
Your error is thinking your salvage belongs to you and thus that they're stealing. CCP has repeatedly said that salvage belongs to who salvages it first. It is not yours any more than all the asteroids belong to you. If you mine the asteroids, the ore is yours. If you salvage a wreck, the salvage is yours. Not a moment before. |
Kahega Amielden
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Posted - 2008.07.16 15:45:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Shanur Hmm. Somehow i am starting to get curious about ninja salvaging as well. What would be a good ship to do it in? I'm guessing a frigate because with no tracs you have to rely on speed. So should i think inty for the speed or CovOps for the probe bonusses?
Here is a ninjasalvaging guide I wrote, should tell ya everything you need to know. Yes, I'd say an inty + a CovOps would be good. Personally I just use a Slasher. |
Traidor Disloyal
NightCrew
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Posted - 2008.07.16 16:08:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus If someone comes along and tries to salvage it then I should be allowed to shoot them.
I agree.
It is a pain in my rear to probe out a mission runner and only find wreaks with no loot. How am I suppose to get aggro with no loot in the wreaks? Please CCP make it a flagging offense when I salvage a wreak so that the mission runner can take a shot at me.
--------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot |
Calacheng
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.16 16:34:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Calacheng on 16/07/2008 16:34:24
Originally by: Tippia ...you also have to face the nature of the increased risks that come with it.
Where is your risk in it when Concorde is protecting you?
Originally by: Tippia ...and you already have every single advantage in that competition.
Flat out wrong!
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