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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.15 07:11:00 -
[1]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
To counter log-off - the action where you intentionally disconnect to prevent ship loss:
Ship starts to engage warp 15 seconds after disconnect. If it is warp scrambled the ship will not warp away.
Sounds like a fair plan, ships disconnecting randomly will warp off harmlessly and ships intentionally logging off when they see someone in their overview, well then we get a small 15 second window of opportunity to catch him.
So why wasn't this put into the game? The dev blog that quote is from is many years old so I am wondering why it was never put in. Logging pilots makes me sad.
I know, people who say "wahhh, wahhh gate camper" But this is not just gate-camping, people log off when they see something on their overview all the time. I just want a fair shot at a target. In 0.0 I can bring a dictor, but in low sec I do not have this luxury.
Please CCP, why didn't you take out the log-off exploit? --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Karanth
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.15 07:21:00 -
[2]
Because you touch yourself at night.
Lowsec gives you hictors with focused bubbles. Same with highsec.
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MarleWH
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Posted - 2008.07.15 07:41:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Karanth Because you touch yourself at night.
Lowsec gives you hictors with focused bubbles. Same with highsec.
I don't think that stops the logoffski though.
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Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.15 07:54:00 -
[4]
I would like this to be in game. Even a 5 second delay is good. Becasue than you have 5sec + align time.
Maybe a bit unfair for those who have net problems, but % of those who log vs % of those with problems... those who log are in much greater numbers.
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Sniggwaffe is recruiting
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Arana Tellen
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.15 07:56:00 -
[5]
Becuase there is no way to tell if you have intentionally disconnected. ---------------------------------
Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale *moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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Pak Narhoo
Gallente Pacific Starfleet Command
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Posted - 2008.07.15 07:56:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dihania ... but % of those who log vs % of those with problems... those who log are in much greater numbers.
And you found those numbers where?
Originally by: Haakelen That is a terrible idea, you have no idea what you're talking about, please don't do it anymore.
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Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dihania on 15/07/2008 08:10:46 I roam most every day. Low sec and 0.0
I jump in xcv123 0.0 system, 1 in local, puff, gone, his ships is still on scan. oh damn he had a disconnect just when I was about to catch him, oh well, internet problems do happen. Then I move forward, hop in the next system, nobody, than to the next system, 1 in local, puff, gone. Oh another one with net problems, they must be from the same country / isp something
And when this repeats throughout the evening you tend to think it's just incredible how many people have internet problems and disconnect, damn the quality of this thing is bad.
See where I'm comming from?
Also I have done it too, I had another character, long time ago, was in a renter corp in Querios, we were moving haulers and a freighter from one station system with a refinery to our home base system. This operation happened on a regular basis. Roaming gangs were comming our way often and every time we saw them comming on the intel channel we logged off, bar 1 remaining in system or on the intel channel. We sat on TS and waited for the danger to pass. Then we would return to our normal operation.
This is not ok, I did not like it then, thus I moved, and I do not like it now.
Also you will hear this story from every pvp corp in game, along with another story of fitting cloaking devices on ravens.
[hr]
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dihania There is a way to tell if you were disconected or you logged off: 1. The user logges off: this means he uses "ctrl+q", "esc+quit" , can be anything, it does not matter. You just make a call to the server. 2. The user disconnects, signal is lost, but no call to the server.
Because there's no way to fake a disconnect. -
DesuSigs |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Arana Tellen Becuase there is no way to tell if you have intentionally disconnected.
This is true, but can you reasonably believe that someone happened to disconnect right after spotting an enemy on their overview? I have crashed when jumping through a hostile gate before (in non-lagging situations) but really, can you reasonably believe that someone jumped through a gate, sat their watching the enemies for 30 seconds and then happened to disconnect? Please, if said person disconnected, then why don't they log back in? Why is there a mysterious noob corp alt in system within 5 minutes. No it is not reasonable at all to believe that sort of thing happens.
When I used to play RTS games, their used to be a penalty to people who drop games (or did they lol have disconnect problems right before their last unit/structure died?) Full credit goes to the right victor and a penalty is placed on the offender. It is not a bad or anything, but doing it enough times and yeah you will get banned from the matchmaking program or avoided by people who actually play the game for fun and can't handle a simple PvP loss in a PvP game.
Giving a 15 second wait timer means the only time disconnectors will get caught is when they log off when hostiles are on their overview and ready to pounce on them. If players cannot handle the miraculous one PvP loss due to a disconnect in a PvP game then maybe they shouldn't be playing.
Rant not directed at you btw :) --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Arana Tellen Becuase there is no way to tell if you have intentionally disconnected.
This is true, but can you reasonably believe that someone happened to disconnect right after spotting an enemy on their overview? I have crashed when jumping through a hostile gate before (in non-lagging situations) but really, can you reasonably believe that someone jumped through a gate, sat their watching the enemies for 30 seconds and then happened to disconnect? Please, if said person disconnected, then why don't they log back in? Why is there a mysterious noob corp alt in system within 5 minutes. No it is not reasonable at all to believe that sort of thing happens.
When I used to play RTS games, their used to be a penalty to people who drop games (or did they lol have disconnect problems right before their last unit/structure died?) Full credit goes to the right victor and a penalty is placed on the offender. It is not a bad or anything, but doing it enough times and yeah you will get banned from the matchmaking program or avoided by people who actually play the game for fun and can't handle a simple PvP loss in a PvP game.
Giving a 15 second wait timer means the only time disconnectors will get caught is when they log off when hostiles are on their overview and ready to pounce on them. If players cannot handle the miraculous one PvP loss due to a disconnect in a PvP game then maybe they shouldn't be playing.
Rant not directed at you btw :)
Because this needs human judge to decide and there are only so many GMs.
I can kill the eve process, I can shut down the outgoing connection on firewall etc. There are many options (some of the can be caught on client side, but most of them not).
Oh and yes. Maybe I am just waiting in gate cloak until the camping ships move a bit so I have nobody near and it happens I get a disconnect just then. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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Varekai Frost
Caldari Serenity Of Lost Souls
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dihania There is a way to tell if you were disconected or you logged off: 1. The user logges off: this means he uses "ctrl+q", "esc+quit" , can be anything, it does not matter. You just make a call to the server. 2. The user disconnects, signal is lost, but no call to the server.
Pull out your network cable or turn your modem off to get option 2
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Karanth Because you touch yourself at night.
Sometimes I logoffski for this express purpose.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.15 08:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dihania
I jump in xcv123 0.0 system, 1 in local, puff, gone, his ships is still on scan. oh damn he had a disconnect just when I was about to catch him, oh well, internet problems do happen.
You jump in system, he log off. So?
A player is allowed to log off at any time, whenever he want. If you have locked, scrambled and aggressed him you will have 15 minutes to kill him. If you don't have a warp scrambler and he is aggressed you have 15 minutes to find him and kill him.
On the flip side you entering a system isn't the equivalent of aggressing someone. It is entering a system. End of the statement. It has no other effects. So people is allowed to do whatever they want when you enter a system and there is nothing stopping them. If it was not so a single AFK cloaker would aggress all the player in a system and block them from logging off forever.
So you "when I see someone in local he should be made incapable of escaping, it is not possible I will lose a prey" people can stuff it. You have no right to pretend that people will not be allowed to log off simply because you are in system.
For the OP: to block your target you need to warp scramble him before he log off. So a bubble in 0.0 work for that. A player seeing that there is danger after jumping in a system could log off and he will do an emergency warp 15 seconds after EVE realize that he is not connected, then he will disappear 2 minutes after EVE realize he is not connected. It is a lame tactic (and in my eyes completely different from logging off when a unknown enter a system and you log off when he is not even in overview) but still allowed.
I think that people like Dihania that try to mix logging off when someone enter the system (essentially the equivalent of going in to hiding in RL when some danger approach) and logging off when the ship enter a new system and find a gatecamp are wilfully muddying the issue, trying to get an advantage for their play style even if it is absurd (the player already in system has several hundred AU of diameter where he can lose himself, it is only the game limitation that block him from doing that, so the log off is a good simulation of hiding in a whole solar system).
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Arana Tellen Becuase there is no way to tell if you have intentionally disconnected.
This is true, but can you reasonably believe that someone happened to disconnect right after spotting an enemy on their overview? I have crashed when jumping through a hostile gate before (in non-lagging situations) but really, can you reasonably believe that someone jumped through a gate, sat their watching the enemies for 30 seconds and then happened to disconnect? Please, if said person disconnected, then why don't they log back in? Why is there a mysterious noob corp alt in system within 5 minutes. No it is not reasonable at all to believe that sort of thing happens.
When I used to play RTS games, their used to be a penalty to people who drop games (or did they lol have disconnect problems right before their last unit/structure died?) Full credit goes to the right victor and a penalty is placed on the offender. It is not a bad or anything, but doing it enough times and yeah you will get banned from the matchmaking program or avoided by people who actually play the game for fun and can't handle a simple PvP loss in a PvP game.
Giving a 15 second wait timer means the only time disconnectors will get caught is when they log off when hostiles are on their overview and ready to pounce on them. If players cannot handle the miraculous one PvP loss due to a disconnect in a PvP game then maybe they shouldn't be playing.
Rant not directed at you btw :)
EVE is not a RTS. Don't try to turn it into one.
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Patient 2428190
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:02:00 -
[15]
What?!
I pay for this game, I can log off whenever I want! I might want a sexy K:D ratio in the future and you are denying me this !?! Lalala. |
Freya Runestone
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Patient 2428190 What?!
I pay for this game, I can log off whenever I want! I might want a sexy K:D ratio in the future and you are denying me this !?!
not everyone can have a positive K:D ratio by definition.
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Sidewayzracer
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Freya Runestone
Originally by: Patient 2428190 What?!
I pay for this game, I can log off whenever I want! I might want a sexy K:D ratio in the future and you are denying me this !?!
not everyone can have a positive K:D ratio by definition.
actually its quite easy as a matter of fact
i death can provide a infinate number of people with a sinple kill.
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Gaven Blands
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:28:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Arana Tellen Becuase there is no way to tell if you have intentionally disconnected.
I have never understood this.
How does my client have no ability whatsoever to detect me pressing ctrl-q?
Yes it does actually. I know this, because when I press it, it logs off. Same with the Escape Menu, quit game.
Having taken those actions, before it exits, it could report to TQ that I specifically requested to logoff, which, in obvious theory, be used as an indicator to TQ that a particular chain of events is allowed.
The big question would be, why can it not be that way?
It's so shockingly obvious, not having it is deliberate intent. |
Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Venkul Mul I think that people like Dihania that try to mix logging off when someone enter the system (essentially the equivalent of going in to hiding in RL when some danger approach) and logging off when the ship enter a new system and find a gatecamp are wilfully muddying the issue, trying to get an advantage for their play style even if it is absurd (the player already in system has several hundred AU of diameter where he can lose himself, it is only the game limitation that block him from doing that, so the log off is a good simulation of hiding in a whole solar system).
I am not "muddying" the issue or trying to. Yes putting that quote looks litke it, but please take the whole post as a whole post, not just bits of it.
As I said, in the post, if one person goes through the normal procedure of logging off, they can see it by setting a flag for ctrl+q or esc+quit.
If this person is aggressed we have the current mechanics. If this person is not aggressed I just want a slight delay. I did not agree to the OP for 15 secs because it is too much. I might agree to a 5 sec delay.
Giving a 5 sec delay: if I jumped in and the other player logged, I have a possibility of catching said person only if I manage to warp to his location within 20km and scramble him which is not ok!. BUT I believe it is mostly impossible to jump into a system and warp to someone in 5 seconds. If this is possible than we should have 3 seconds or even 1 second.
I do not want to give people headakes for logging off. It would not be ok.
But I want to stop people from logging off to escape danger in situations like this: If I jump into a system and 1 person is in local, that person continues to be doing something while I search for him/her AND when I jump onto his location, this person logges off.
If my previous post was unclear I am sorry.
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Sniggwaffe is recruiting
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Falcon Troy
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:34:00 -
[20]
I still laugh at ideas like this. Good luck with EVE's blobbing to survive any dcs in a fleet fight. _____________ Hai. |
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gaven Blands
Originally by: Arana Tellen Becuase there is no way to tell if you have intentionally disconnected.
I have never understood this.
Read the thread again. -
DesuSigs |
Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:38:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dihania on 15/07/2008 09:39:08 Someone raised this issue in the csm forum. I urge everyone to head that way and post against this idea or for this idea. Imho that is the best course of action.
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Sniggwaffe is recruiting
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2008.07.15 09:52:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Dihania There is a way to tell if you were disconected or you logged off: 1. The user logges off: this means he uses "ctrl+q", "esc+quit" , can be anything, it does not matter. You just make a call to the server. 2. The user disconnects, signal is lost, but no call to the server.
Because there's no way to fake a disconnect.
What is sad is Ctrl-Q is way more reliable than a real disconnect at emergency warping your ship. Ctrl-Q and your ship ewarp. Disconnect and the game has to somehow discover it, I take it they used some heartbeat with leniency for a few unanswered messages before actually initiating the emergency warp out (to be fair, lag situation being so bad they'd emergency warp people all the time in laggy systems if they didn't). It is so bad I was once dropped in a mission and was back in time to cancel the emergency warp out (wasn't scrambled). All while Ctrl-Q is perfectly reliable.
Strange design decision if I ever saw one. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine. |
Trigos Trilobi
X-Fire
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Posted - 2008.07.15 10:00:00 -
[24]
I think the fundamental problem with current logoff mechanics is that under no circumstances should not playing the game give you any advantage over actively playing the game.
Hence I think a ship should not vanish at all in case of log off. Emergency warp, sure, that'll keep PvE people just as safe as the current mechanics. A ship with an online cloak could vanish after warp (or idle in space cloaked if cloakers at some point become vulnerable to probing). Pod would stick around aswell, of course. That'd make your relative safety offline in hostile space equal or less than what it is if you're online, as it should be.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.15 10:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi I think the fundamental problem with current logoff mechanics is that under no circumstances should not playing the game give you any advantage over actively playing the game.
But on the other hand, people shouldn't be punished for the fact that they have to log out some time, and it may not be convenient to return to a station or safe space when they need to log off, especially if they have to log off unexpectedly. -
DesuSigs |
Gaven Blands
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:04:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Gaven Blands on 15/07/2008 12:05:04 EDIT:Why did I even bother replying to that rubbish.... |
Quetl
Seren Apoc Chances of Misfortune
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Crumplecorn But on the other hand, people shouldn't be punished for the fact that they have to log out some time, and it may not be convenient to return to a station or safe space when they need to log off, especially if they have to log off unexpectedly.
Why make exceptions for a minimal minority when a large populace suffer as a result.
If you don't want to loose your ship, then stay in empire - you will have more chance at staying alive.
This does need to be fixed, yes it may harm a minority who genuinely have inet issues - but if you loose so many ships as a result it makes your game unplayable, then you need a better IENT connection, or a game that is less demanding. In these cases the MAJORITY has to win over a minority.
Also one simple solution to giving pvpers a chance, remove Local. It has very little use - only time i've seen if in use is Empire corps smack talking each other because it was meant to be a 1 on 1 but someone brought a friend to 'watch'/or incase the other brought a friend. (Oh tell a lie, it was also used to call in ratters to save miners - if you cant handle rats, then you shouldn't really be mining there...)
The only time i see a DC warp being 'fair' is if it's in a complex or something, to save a person being popped by an npc - but this could also be exploited "Oh, pvper coming my way, shoot the local rat so I can then DC safely."
I personally don't see why a minority of players should be protected so players who don't play in theme with the game by using blatant exploits. (Who deserved to be killed on those grounds anyways)
Interesting whether CCP would try fix this, as I'd imagine if this problem gets worse, there could possibly be more people quitting the game because they can't kill cheaters than people quitting cause they are loosing ships due to dc's (who would prolly quit anyways as they will most likely be lagging most of the time.)
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Gaven Blands Edited by: Gaven Blands on 15/07/2008 12:05:04 EDIT:Why did I even bother replying to that rubbish....
It wasn't rubbish, you really should read it again. The answer to your post was there before you posted. -
DesuSigs |
Neth'Rae
Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:12:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Varekai Frost
Originally by: Dihania There is a way to tell if you were disconected or you logged off: 1. The user logges off: this means he uses "ctrl+q", "esc+quit" , can be anything, it does not matter. You just make a call to the server. 2. The user disconnects, signal is lost, but no call to the server.
Pull out your network cable or turn your modem off to get option 2
At least this would take more time than pressing CTRL - Q.
Request signatures at EVE-GFX |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:12:00 -
[30]
I'd say, when you log off your ship automatically decloaks (wether its using active cloaking or just passive gate cloak), sits in space for 30 seconds (during which time it is possible to warp scram/agress and get the 15 minute timer) and then it e-warps and disappears after a minute if not agressed.
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