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Allko
Zero Tax services
2
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Posted - 2012.03.19 10:56:00 -
[91] - Quote
I`m no expert but IMHO EVE economy had issues with ISK befoure incursions it`s just that Incursions was the last drop that the economy could cope with. Now the extra ISK effect is noticable even by a casual pl like me. I liked the lvl5 in hi sec more |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
289
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Posted - 2012.03.19 11:12:00 -
[92] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Tippia wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Stop explaining the truth to the trolls.. GǪand the truth of the matter is that incursions make for a massive ISK faucet that is completely out of proportion to how many are doing it and where they're done. Hey, don't come in here with your logic and well reasoned arguments, this is the EvE-O forums. EDIT: Besides I like to watch the tinfoil hatters and sperge lords fling poo at each other.
My God, I'm actually agreeing with a Goon...what is this world coming to, eh?
But then, I've been doing a lot of six-month "price history" checks in-game on...well, at least a little of pretty much everything, and that damned near half-again price increase of same didn't come from nowhere:
A Myrmidon costs now what a Dominix cost just 6-8 months ago, last I checked.
Ugh...Carebear white-knighters, most odious white-knighters
In irae, veritas. |
Dror Roidcrusher
Balls of Megacyte
13
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Posted - 2012.03.19 12:45:00 -
[93] - Quote
a myrmidon is sold for more isk than before you say.
could it have anything to do with the mineral prices spiking due to: 1. wars in the drone regions. 2. mass bans of bots (it's sad that bots have to be taken for granted but welp) 3. people buying up existing stocks of ships due to the increases in mineral prices, e.g for reprocessing. 4. speculators driving up mineral prices due to some chaos data suggesting no more drone alloys. 5. speculators driving up prices in general (and the .01-isking is still unpenalized).
in fact, i'm off to produce some myrmidons because it seems i can sell them at an n1 price.
(p.s. - i think hisec vanguard farming is a disgrace) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5691
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Posted - 2012.03.19 13:22:00 -
[94] - Quote
Allko wrote:I liked the lvl5 in hi sec more L5s (and high-end L4s) were more about LP and loot, specifically tags, and thus largely cancelled out their ISK injections.
They still paid too much for what you had to do, but that's a rather different issue. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
82
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:33:00 -
[95] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[ Cipher Jones wrote:Incursions are done everywhere but wormhole space, and wormhole space injects more ISK than Incursions. First of all, no, it doesn't. It injects about Gàö the amount. Wspace is also 0.0, and thus deserve a higher payout, so even if it did, that would be kind of expected. More the to point, though, since you seem to be missing it, just like Darth here: how many people are running those wspace sweeps?
You got it mixed up babe Incursions inject 2/3 the amount of ISK in the form of blue loot here is my citation http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
82
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:39:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[ Quote:You are telling me there are not considerable investments in man hours devoted to incursion running? Compared to keeping a profitable moon? Nope. Quote:YOU ARE TELLING ME MOON GOO IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR THE ECONOMY?!?!?! What economical issues are there with moon goo (aside from being a deflationary materials faucet)?
Incursioners spend many man hours & spend ALOT o ISK on ships & AMMO ( faction ammo at theat ). Compated to keeping a single profitable moon, yep I can argue the deflationary minerals until 2011 were wrecking the economy as a matter of fact I'll start a thread concerning how deflation is worse then inflation by along shot
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baltec1
838
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:
Incursioners spend many man hours & spend ALOT o ISK on ships & AMMO ( faction ammo at theat ). Compated to keeping a single profitable moon, yep
When was the last time you saw an incursion fleet field several hundred ships at a cost of 200+ billion and lose it all to titans. Then field another 200 bil in ships when the tower comes out of its timer? |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
269
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Posted - 2012.03.19 18:06:00 -
[98] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Tippia wrote:[ Quote:You are telling me there are not considerable investments in man hours devoted to incursion running? Compared to keeping a profitable moon? Nope. Quote:YOU ARE TELLING ME MOON GOO IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR THE ECONOMY?!?!?! What economical issues are there with moon goo (aside from being a deflationary materials faucet)? Incursioners spend many man hours & spend ALOT o ISK on ships & AMMO ( faction ammo at theat ). Compated to keeping a single profitable moon, yep I can argue the deflationary minerals until 2011 were wrecking the economy as a matter of fact I'll start a thread concerning how deflation is worse then inflation by along shot
And how often has your 6 bill shiny been blown up? WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5693
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Posted - 2012.03.19 18:16:00 -
[99] - Quote
GǪand I get my data from my own collection of sources, where it's about Gàö, and the numbers you just linked to show that you're wrong regardless. Maybe you should read them before posting, hmmGǪ?
But sure, it's probably seasonal GÇö people export and sell off in bulk once enough has been gathered up, so let's place it somewhere between the two. That puts it at the same level as incursion, and the question remains the same: how many people are running those wspace sweeps?
Quote:Incursioners spend many man hours & spend ALOT o ISK on ships & AMMO ( faction ammo at theat ). Compated to keeping a single profitable moon, yep It's not even close. Stop pretending to be a blithering idiot GÇö you're not that stupid. The manpower and running costs are insignificant compared to keeping a moon safe. So no, it's not a considerable investment in manpower and ISK compared to holding a moon.
Quote:I can argue the deflationary minerals until 2011 were wrecking the economy as a matter of fact I'll start a thread concerning how deflation is worse then inflation by along shot You could. Do you have any shred of evidence? Or, to restate the question since you didn't actually answer it: what economical issues are there with moon goo? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
115
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Posted - 2012.03.19 18:33:00 -
[100] - Quote
If there are only a handful of people making gobs of isk from incursions, then it would *less* inflationary. There is only so much isk a person needs. That whole isk velocity thing the author of the blog went on about. |
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Grumpy Owly
340
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Posted - 2012.03.19 18:46:00 -
[101] - Quote
Hainnz wrote:If there are only a handful of people making gobs of isk from incursions, then it would *less* inflationary. There is only so much isk a person needs. That whole isk velocity thing the author of the blog went on about.
Its getting people to spend ISK on consumables or products or even invest in opportunites that utilise lower tier products. In short having money sat around doing nothing isn't responsible to the economy.
The deflationary aspects of a falling consumer price index (or people not buying goods) as presented by CCP dont show LP or contracts related purchases. So its hard to say how much is "invisible" in terms of investment and spending or who is doing it.
They are related, but to some extent with a stable isk faucet being balanced overall as per CCP's suggested tweaks, all we then need to ensure is ways to encourage spending the ISK people have hidden in their matresses. Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
84
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:00:00 -
[102] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote: encourage spending the ISK people have hidden in their matresses.
Which is going to be pretty hard with all the promises/plans for iteration on content......at least until the specifics of those plans are known.
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Grumpy Owly
341
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:15:00 -
[103] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote: encourage spending the ISK people have hidden in their matresses. Which is going to be pretty hard with all the promises/plans for iteration on content......at least until the specifics of those plans are known.
Which I have to agree is fair and valid reason for "saving for a rainy" day and should also be as you rightly point out more of an encouragement for people to be informed better about future choices by CCP as a result.
The biggest I suppose of those is likley War Costs and on what relative scale. As if its is systemic to survival I can see a real need to save or form larger allegiances. To some extent you could do some residual investment into war materials in preperation than just sit on the isk? At least its still kind of a managable investment helping to keep the economy moving.
Where the blame lies doesn't really solve the problem that exists as a result, but I do understand those hesitations to invest/spend. Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
135
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:46:00 -
[104] - Quote
some more interresting numbers would be... WHERE! is the majority of the isk "created" show it per region, and per high, low and null sec, (show a map) show how much from incursion and how much from rats, that would be a much more informational info. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
83
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Posted - 2012.03.19 21:54:00 -
[105] - Quote
Serge Bastana wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Tippia wrote:[ Quote:You are telling me there are not considerable investments in man hours devoted to incursion running? Compared to keeping a profitable moon? Nope. Quote:YOU ARE TELLING ME MOON GOO IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR THE ECONOMY?!?!?! What economical issues are there with moon goo (aside from being a deflationary materials faucet)? Incursioners spend many man hours & spend ALOT o ISK on ships & AMMO ( faction ammo at theat ). Compated to keeping a single profitable moon, yep I can argue the deflationary minerals until 2011 were wrecking the economy as a matter of fact I'll start a thread concerning how deflation is worse then inflation by along shot And how often has your 6 bill shiny been blown up?
I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... when was the last shiney worth 6 billion+ blew up on you? |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
83
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Posted - 2012.03.19 21:58:00 -
[106] - Quote
repost |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5696
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 22:01:00 -
[107] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:ONCE AGAIN I SEE NO NUMBERS ON BLUE LOOT IN THAT CITATION MY CITATION HAD IT Fix your keyboard and read it again. Not necessarily in that order, but do both. Oh, andGǪ
Quote:Blue loot [is] bring[ing] in more ISK [and is] therefore a [bigger] ISK [faucet] GǪeven with all that angrish, you're still missing the point. So, read my citation and my post again, and fix your keyboard.
Quote:I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... So a lot less than the cost of acquiring and keeping a moon safe. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
83
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:11:00 -
[108] - Quote
Tippia wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:ONCE AGAIN I SEE NO NUMBERS ON BLUE LOOT IN THAT CITATION MY CITATION HAD IT Fix your keyboard and read it again. Not necessarily in that order, but do both. Oh, andGǪ Quote:Blue loot [is] bring[ing] in more ISK [and is] therefore a [bigger] ISK [faucet] GǪeven with all that angrish, you're still missing the point. So, read my citation and my post again, and fix your keyboard. Quote:I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... So a lot less than the cost of acquiring and keeping a moon safe.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
83
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:20:00 -
[109] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[ Quote:I can argue the deflationary minerals until 2011 were wrecking the economy as a matter of fact I'll start a thread concerning how deflation is worse then inflation by along shot You could. Do you have any shred of evidence? Or, to restate the question since you didn't actually answer it: what economical issues are there with moon goo?
I have seen numbers that show a 100% increase in cost of techtanium forgot the period time too... I don't have it with me so I may be wrong... Got any info (citations please) or agraph on the price of tech goo over the last 7 years?
I would like a gander at that faucet's prices & amount of it that has been extracted & compare them it'd be an interesting graph indeed |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5697
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 22:27:00 -
[110] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:I see what you are talking about a single quote of the sleeper componets OF THE BLUE LOOT... that number was not a single month but over an entire year? It does not say. I can only ever tell you to actually read the blog post and its sources.
What part of GÇ£NPCs bought 6.94tn ISK worth of sleeper components in Jan 2012GÇ¥ is unclear to you?
Quote:The quote I have is of the same period of time yours is not I am assuming because the number is not compared to the same number in time with Incursion Ok. Slow down. Breathe. Your previous post was angrish. Now you're closing in on incomprehensibility. You need to put a few commas, semicolons or even dashes in there to separate the phrases.
No. My quote is not for the same time period. (alternatively) Your quote is the same time period asGǪ what, exactly? (alternatively) Yes, the numbers for the incursions is for the same period as the numbers for the wspace loot GÇö you have to jump around over the pages to get it all, though, because I posted those as the information was being released.
StillGǪ I apparently cannot repeat this often enough: you're missing the point, namely that the injection of ISK form incursions is vastly (and needlessly) out of proportion to the participation (120M per user-day vs. 8:ish million for wspace vs. less than 2M for missions). I don't know why you're so reluctant to address this pointGǪ
GǪso I'm simply going to guess that you're afraid that your income is going to be reduced in the upcoming faucet nerfs (you willGǪ until you adjust to do more of the harder sites). The other thing you've been missing throughout all of this is that, while this is an interesting issue as well since it hurts versatility and variety of gameplay, the personal income pretty much 100% irrelevant as far as the issue of ISK injection and overflowing the money supply is concerned. That's just the latest part of GÇ£highsec pays too muchGÇ¥ GÇö an issue that started, oh, back in 2004 or so. That problem is for another day and has no bearing on the issue of excessive ISK injection. So again, calm down and read what's being said without jumping to conclusions.
Quote:I have seen numbers that show a 100% increase in cost of techtanium forgot the period time too... I don't have it with me so I may be wrong... Got any info (citations please) or agraph on the price of tech goo over the last 7 years? Probably in one of the QENs around the time of the moon rebalance, but it will be a bit old by now. Even so, that doesn't really answer the question: what's the economic issue with moon goo? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
83
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
I read your citation & my citations your seems to by over the month of Janurary & mine February? why did blue loot change 3 trillion ISK in 1 month? |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
611
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 22:36:00 -
[112] - Quote
I'm a little confused (and apologize for being so), but how do WHs bring in any isk to the economy? I've never seen a single bounty... only been up to C4 though. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5697
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 22:38:00 -
[113] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:I read your citation & my citations your seems to by over the month of Janurary & mine February? why did blue loot change 3 trillion ISK in 1 month? Like I said earlier: most likely because it's kind of a GÇ£seasonalGÇ¥ thing GÇö it's not a constant flow out of wspace, but something the big collectors (the ones creating enough volume to make a difference) gather up for a month or three in the POS until it's time to pack the Orca / Freighter / whatever to the gills and jump it out for a selling spree.
Corina Jarr wrote:I'm a little confused (and apologize for being so), but how do WHs bring in any isk to the economy? I've never seen a single bounty... only been up to C4 though. Because of the GÇ£blue lootGÇ¥ we keep mentioning: drops from sleepers that only serves the purpose of being sold to NPC buy orders. All NPC buy orders are ISK faucets, and we're simply separating these from all other kinds to get a number that is specific for wspace.
Other such orders are CONCORD buying overseer personal effects, factions buying tags, and even some left-over NPC orders for various trade goods. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
269
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 22:41:00 -
[114] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:
I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... when was the last shiney worth 6 billion+ blew up on you?
And how often does that happen? I think there's a lot more lost defending moons in a week than you lost in one ship a month ago. I doubt you lose that much that often.
Whether I've lost a pimped out shiny is irrelevant, I'm not the one using strawman arguments by pointing at moon goo as an isk faucet when it's actually not, it's a mineral faucet. WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
83
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 22:41:00 -
[115] - Quote
Tippia wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:I read your citation & my citations your seems to by over the month of Janurary & mine February? why did blue loot change 3 trillion ISK in 1 month? Like I said earlier: most likely because it's kind of a GÇ£seasonalGÇ¥ thing GÇö it's not a constant flow out of wspace, but something the big collectors (the ones creating enough volume to make a difference) gather up for a month or three in the POS until it's time to pack the Orca / Freighter / whatever to the gills and jump it out for a selling spree.
Still 1 month that much a difference? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5697
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 22:47:00 -
[116] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Still 1 month that much a difference? vOv
I don't have the prices in my head (or the item volumes), but consider how much ISK you can get out of the 70k+ m-¦ in an Orca. It's a fair amount iirc. Just the fact that it's not a continuous event (because that just provides more opportunities to not have scouts and probers online to have a known route to ye olde hub, and get caught for no good reason) means that it can create some pretty massive swings. Combine this with the time it takes to collect an amount that's worth-while to export out of your hole and those swings become even more pronounced.
I'm sure we'd see similarly-sized swings if we picked any one faucet from a Sunday to a Monday, when there's usually something like 10-20% fewer people on the server.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
83
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 22:48:00 -
[117] - Quote
Serge Bastana wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:
I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... when was the last shiney worth 6 billion+ blew up on you?
And how often does that happen? I think there's a lot more lost defending moons in a week than you lost in one ship a month ago. I doubt you lose that much that often. Whether I've lost a pimped out shiny is irrelevant, I'm not the one using strawman arguments by pointing at moon goo as an isk faucet when it's actually not, it's a mineral faucet.
I've REPEATEDLY called moon goo a mineral faucet that lines the wallets of a much fewer number ( order of magnitude at least)then the ISK faucet which is known as Incursions. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
293
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 23:16:00 -
[118] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote: [snip]
I had a shiney 6 billion ship blow up last month but I was lucky & recovered 1/2 of it in loot from my fleet mates... when was the last shiney worth 6 billion+ blew up on you?
In other words you recovered from it no problem.
This is not the case for a lot of people who don't farm gold 23.5/7 in broken Incursions.
How often does one lose ships in hisec in general? Not too much, if one is halfway smart about it.
CCP: Get your head out of your arse, admit your "baby" needs some tough love, and fix this, now.
In irae, veritas. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
84
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 23:41:00 -
[119] - Quote
I farmed a WH 5h/d for about a year in ~6bil tengus.
Still have them.
Never came close to losing a tengu, but I could have afforded to lose several a month if needed (and still been making ISK)
If you are halfway smart you won't lose ships that you don't want to in a WH. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
3232
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 02:43:00 -
[120] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Oh man LEAD PAINT CHIPS are DELICIOUS
"WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
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