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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.15 22:04:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 15/07/2008 22:05:39
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Jacob Mei ship compare chart
Bottom most left shows buildings for scale.
I don't buy it.
Just look at the agility of any modest sized ship. If they were that big the acceleration taking place in a turn would turn all the biomass inside into paste and tear most of the ship apart. Not to mention the acceleration of a MWD.
For example, a decent interceptor can hit 7km/s in about 3 seconds. That's 2333 m/s/s. Or about 238 "gees". Which would kill anything inside bigger than a tiny insect. That's kind of an extreme example, but a cruiser the size of the Eiffel tower turning in 8 seconds? Not happening.
Another example, the crawler that NASA uses to move the shuttle & rockets is about Eiffel sized. And it moves a screaming 1.78816 m/s.
Magic Plot Device Technology (tm). Clearly we have finally figured it out: EVE's physics-defying engines allow incredible acceleration (most likely by the same mass-reduction technology that allows a 1400mm artillery shell to have a mass of less than a kilogram), but the Reality Distortion Field Generator must obey the Law of Conservation of Reality. Therefore EVE's ships have to pay a price: in this case, a cap on their maximum velocity.
As for the internal stress, yes, it would be a problem (at least for our materials science), but take a look at the kinetic energy of a 1400mm artillery shell (Tremor L). Assuming it can reach the full 250km lock range limit in .1 second (since there is no visible delay between firing and impact), even using the utterly stupid .01kg mass you're talking about a .78 kiloton impact from kinetic energy alone. Since EVE ships can survive this without snapping in half from the first hit, it's reasonable to think they've got a lot better materials science than we can even imagine.
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.15 22:08:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Jacob Mei ship compare chart
Bottom most left shows buildings for scale.
I don't buy it.
Just look at the agility of any modest sized ship. If they were that big the acceleration taking place in a turn would turn all the biomass inside into paste and tear most of the ship apart. Not to mention the acceleration of a MWD.
For example, a decent interceptor can hit 7km/s in about 3 seconds. That's 2333 m/s/s. Or about 238 "gees". Which would kill anything inside bigger than a tiny insect. That's kind of an extreme example, but a cruiser the size of the Eiffel tower turning in 8 seconds? Not happening.
Another example, the crawler that NASA uses to move the shuttle & rockets is about Eiffel sized. And it moves a screaming 1.78816 m/s.
Obviously if it cant happen in real life right now it could never possibly happen in a make believe space universe
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Meiyang Lee
Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.07.15 22:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tanis Kherisa That said, i was looking at this chart, and was wondering. On the bottom right corner, sandwiched between the Moros and the Gallente freighter... what the hell is that lighter colored ship? I have never seen anything like that.
That's an Opus Luxury Yacht. CCP uses them for events sometimes and they also serve as cloaked camera ships during the alliance tournament. There are a couple of them in the hands of players, but mostly collectors.
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Siiee
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Posted - 2008.07.16 01:07:00 -
[34]
Just thought I'd toss this out there.
The Sprint anti-ballistic missile with a roughly .003 MN (?) first stage and weighing only 7700lbs accelerates at 100g to reach 12km/s in 5 seconds. In the atmosphere. With 1970's technology.
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Elhina Novae
Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.07.16 01:16:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Jacob Mei ship compare chart
Bottom most left shows buildings for scale.
I don't buy it.
Just look at the agility of any modest sized ship. If they were that big the acceleration taking place in a turn would turn all the biomass inside into paste and tear most of the ship apart. Not to mention the acceleration of a MWD.
For example, a decent interceptor can hit 7km/s in about 3 seconds. That's 2333 m/s/s. Or about 238 "gees". Which would kill anything inside bigger than a tiny insect. That's kind of an extreme example, but a cruiser the size of the Eiffel tower turning in 8 seconds? Not happening.
Another example, the crawler that NASA uses to move the shuttle & rockets is about Eiffel sized. And it moves a screaming 1.78816 m/s.
Baby ever heard about Inertia? ;) I am pretty sure in the eve universe we can manipulate it and that most ships do from scratch also oooh Inertia Stabilizer what's this? ------------ Somebody set up us the bomb |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.16 01:55:00 -
[36]
By the way, ship size has absolutely nothing to do with the acceleration squish problem. The only thing ship size (and therefore mass) changes is the thrust required to accelerate at a specific rate. A 200 g acceleration will squish everything inside regardless of whether you're talking about a tiny bullet, or a mile-long starship. If you can solve the problem on a small ship, you can solve it just as easily for a big one.
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Byzan Zwyth
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.07.16 02:08:00 -
[37]
guys, it's not real! :p
hehe
really the only thing that bothers me is that in game the "space flight" is nothing like what flight in space would be like, it is closer to the characteristics of what neutrally buoyant objects would behave like underwater. Sig removed. Lacks EVE related content. For more information feel free to contact [email protected]. ~Saint |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.16 03:21:00 -
[38]
Every time my Raven explodes I kill 7400 people? I'm a monster. . .
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Xavier Maroquin
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Posted - 2008.07.16 03:27:00 -
[39]
If nobody noticed, all ships in eve are inertaless, so if ships can be made that can do that, how could they not find a way to not liquify the crew?
inertaless=no inertia to keep it moving in the direction it was going
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Gwendalyne
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Posted - 2008.07.16 04:13:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Xavier Maroquin If nobody noticed, all ships in eve are inertaless, so if ships can be made that can do that, how could they not find a way to not liquify the crew?
inertaless=no inertia to keep it moving in the direction it was going
Ahem? I aint as good at this kind of stuff as you are, but even I know what MOMENTUM is.
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Dahak2150
Chaos Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.07.16 04:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Jacob Mei ship compare chart
Bottom most left shows buildings for scale.
I don't buy it.
Just look at the agility of any modest sized ship. If they were that big the acceleration taking place in a turn would turn all the biomass inside into paste and tear most of the ship apart. Not to mention the acceleration of a MWD.
For example, a decent interceptor can hit 7km/s in about 3 seconds. That's 2333 m/s/s. Or about 238 "gees". Which would kill anything inside bigger than a tiny insect. That's kind of an extreme example, but a cruiser the size of the Eiffel tower turning in 8 seconds? Not happening.
Another example, the crawler that NASA uses to move the shuttle & rockets is about Eiffel sized. And it moves a screaming 1.78816 m/s.
Never mind that this is a game, with FTL projectile weapons, four "damage types", ships that operate on submarine physics and invincible stations.
We should totally compare it to real life. Totally.
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Maeltstome
Minmatar Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.07.16 07:22:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Arvald
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Jacob Mei ship compare chart
Bottom most left shows buildings for scale.
I don't buy it.
Just look at the agility of any modest sized ship. If they were that big the acceleration taking place in a turn would turn all the biomass inside into paste and tear most of the ship apart. Not to mention the acceleration of a MWD.
For example, a decent interceptor can hit 7km/s in about 3 seconds. That's 2333 m/s/s. Or about 238 "gees". Which would kill anything inside bigger than a tiny insect. That's kind of an extreme example, but a cruiser the size of the Eiffel tower turning in 8 seconds? Not happening.
Another example, the crawler that NASA uses to move the shuttle & rockets is about Eiffel sized. And it moves a screaming 1.78816 m/s.
inertial dampeners
But captain, inertial Dampeners are offline! -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Elhina Novae
Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.07.16 12:26:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Elhina Novae on 16/07/2008 12:27:32
Originally by: Xavier Maroquin If nobody noticed, all ships in eve are inertaless, so if ships can be made that can do that, how could they not find a way to not liquify the crew?
inertaless=no inertia to keep it moving in the direction it was going
Ok without inertia, i think the ship would become tachyonic, traveling faster then light (actually travel faster then light), while at the same time traveling back in time and this would make the game far too complex for me :P
And no ship is without inertia, but for some reason its named differently on different ships, sometimes agility and sometimes inertia? ------------ Somebody set up us the bomb |
BiggestT
Caldari Fun Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.16 12:40:00 -
[44]
lol that chart is sooo old..
its before rev II when the chimera was still the size of a bs, and doesnt even show tier 2 bc's or tier 3 bs's..
oh and the size things in EVE or all jumbled, if u open tactiacal overlay, a simple crate on a corp array deck is like 1km long..and hte wee robot arm is about the same, wheras a frigate looks the same size as the wee crate but is less htan 100m long..
dont bother using in game comparisons x)
poudly annoying fc's since 2007 |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.16 12:41:00 -
[45]
I love how the projectiles go soo fast.
As they travel through space to theri targets, they'd actually form mini blackholes and attract themselves to each other as they smash into their target. How a ship can survive a .08 kg blackhole traveling at realitivistic speeds is beyond me as is the fact that they still explode on impact too. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Xaen
Caldari Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.16 14:21:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tanis Kherisa Firstly, Xaen , Nasa also doesnt have an antimatter reactor, a warp drive and a bunch of other stuff, thats in this game, whats a bit of fudging with some of the physics? At 300 G's or acceleration, nothing would survive. Even small bugs would be paste on the bulkhead. Hell, current building technology says that the acceleration of something the size of the Erubus, say, or bigger would probably tear itself apart at the speeds they can do in the game.
That said, i was looking at this chart, and was wondering. On the bottom right corner, sandwiched between the Moros and the Gallente freighter... what the hell is that lighter colored ship? I have never seen anything like that.
It's an Opux Luxury Yacht.
EVEMon doesn't have it, but EFT does. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2008.07.16 16:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ragnar Dannaskjold If they existed in real life, how big would they be? House sized? Car sized? Fighter jet sized?
a shuttle is 1200 tons. 1200 tons is about the size of a small modern patrol frigate like the europeans use. a frigate is significantly "larger" than that.
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Karrade Krise
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Posted - 2008.07.16 20:04:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Jacob Mei ship compare chart
Bottom most left shows buildings for scale.
I don't buy it.
Just look at the agility of any modest sized ship. If they were that big the acceleration taking place in a turn would turn all the biomass inside into paste and tear most of the ship apart. Not to mention the acceleration of a MWD.
For example, a decent interceptor can hit 7km/s in about 3 seconds. That's 2333 m/s/s. Or about 238 "gees". Which would kill anything inside bigger than a tiny insect. That's kind of an extreme example, but a cruiser the size of the Eiffel tower turning in 8 seconds? Not happening.
Another example, the crawler that NASA uses to move the shuttle & rockets is about Eiffel sized. And it moves a screaming 1.78816 m/s.
If I recall correctly...space is vacuum, no air, no amplified gravity, no resistance. Therefore, all that fun flying stuff wont have any affect on its' occupants.
The fastest way to turn arround in space is to stop your forward thrust, do a 360 spin while still traveling in the same direction, then hitting the thrusters again to go the other way. Just a matter of how much mass and strength of the ships thrusters/engines.
I'm on rocket scientist or anything... so I could be slightly wrong :P Sig locked, I will not make fun of the forum mods |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.16 20:34:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Karrade Krise
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Jacob Mei ship compare chart
Bottom most left shows buildings for scale.
I don't buy it.
Just look at the agility of any modest sized ship. If they were that big the acceleration taking place in a turn would turn all the biomass inside into paste and tear most of the ship apart. Not to mention the acceleration of a MWD.
For example, a decent interceptor can hit 7km/s in about 3 seconds. That's 2333 m/s/s. Or about 238 "gees". Which would kill anything inside bigger than a tiny insect. That's kind of an extreme example, but a cruiser the size of the Eiffel tower turning in 8 seconds? Not happening.
Another example, the crawler that NASA uses to move the shuttle & rockets is about Eiffel sized. And it moves a screaming 1.78816 m/s.
If I recall correctly...space is vacuum, no air, no amplified gravity, no resistance. Therefore, all that fun flying stuff wont have any affect on its' occupants.
The fastest way to turn arround in space is to stop your forward thrust, do a 360 spin while still traveling in the same direction, then hitting the thrusters again to go the other way. Just a matter of how much mass and strength of the ships thrusters/engines.
I'm on rocket scientist or anything... so I could be slightly wrong :P
Space being a vacuum (or close enough to it for your argument at any rate) has nothing to do with inertia. Recall Newton's laws of motion:
1) An Object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force
2) Force is equal to mass times acceleration (F = M * A anyone?)
3) Every action has an equal and opposite reaction
When you accelerate a ship by pushing on it (i.e. with the thrust of 1 MN MWD) the ship accelerates all objects and parts the ship consists of. Basically, the engine pushes the engine frame, the frame pushes the ship, the ship pushes all the stuff (or if you want each particle exerts a roughly linear force on other particles). As such, you can see that even in space you'll still be smooshed into paste when you flick on that MWD in your nano inty and run for the hills. Recall for instance that the gravitational force on earth exhibits 1 G of acceleration on a person. 1 G equates to ~9.8 m/s^2 worth of acceleration. There are a host of refrences on the subject of g force required to cause human injury and other "thresholds for injury". Nevertheless, the several hundred G acceleration intys are capable of producing (and maintaining for a number of seconds) are so far in excess of what's required to cause serious injury that it's not a debatable point.
Most sci-fi anything has to have an explanation for how stuff works when it breaks our understanding of physics. Star Trek used "inertial dampners" to explain why those laws of motion didn't apply (They also had a Heisenberg Compensator to explain how you could reassemble someone after they'd been teleported). I don't find it strange that Eve ships can break these laws because if Eve used real physics, the game would be TERRIBLE.
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Adaera
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Posted - 2008.07.16 23:14:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Adaera on 16/07/2008 23:15:43 I've got a chart somewhere or other that lists the rough length of the various ships. Not sure if it's been posted, but here are the (rough) figures:
Frigates: about 50-80m long Cruisers: about 200-300m long Battleships: about 600-1.8km long Titans: somewhere from 6km to 9km, forgotten exactly.
Of course this is again a rough average, some some ships will of course not fit it well, but that gives you an idea of the scale.
Edit: reading up a bit it seems I arrived too late for the actual measurements and it's now a big debate. *hide in a nice dark corner*
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Kasutra
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.17 01:16:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Kasutra on 17/07/2008 01:18:46 Eve does not use physics. It just does stuff regardless of what it may thing.
Originally by: Derek Sigres Every time my Raven explodes I kill 7400 people? I'm a monster. . .
I like to think that they all manage to run for the escape pods (insignificant enough to not show up on our scanners/cameras) and warp to the nearest station.
Jesus sthis stuff is getting me really intoxicated
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Xindi Kraid
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Posted - 2008.07.17 05:04:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kasutra Edited by: Kasutra on 17/07/2008 01:18:46 Eve does not use physics. It just does stuff regardless of what it may thing.
Originally by: Derek Sigres Every time my Raven explodes I kill 7400 people? I'm a monster. . .
I like to think that they all manage to run for the escape pods (insignificant enough to not show up on our scanners/cameras) and warp to the nearest station.
Jesus sthis stuff is getting me really intoxicated
I don't know about the rest of you but I usually take out those kinds of luxuries so I can mount more armor without adverse affects --Bird of Prey: Forum God
Caveat Emptor Caveat Venditor CAVEAT |
Utrak
Federation Navy Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.17 05:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Arvald the rifter is a bit larger than a 747, and an omen is larger than a us supercarrier....so effing huge
If you look at the cargo capacity of a 747-8, the scale appears to be realistic. 747-8 passenger variant: 5,705 ft¦ (161.5 m¦) 747-8 freight variant: 30,177 ft¦ (854.3 m¦)
Also, these large ships are not made for planetary interaction...instead they are built to operate in a zero-gravity and warp-speed environment.
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Jethro Amar
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Posted - 2008.07.17 11:40:00 -
[54]
Actually, the fact that Eve space seems to be 'oily' is NOT surprising. It should be like this: Mach's principle, which was explained by Einstein as "...inertia originates in a kind of interaction between bodies..." says that inertia of the body comes from the entire Universe (it's gravity). Thus, if we had a kind of 'gravity screen' that would stop gravity in a given area (our ship) the ship (and everything aboard) would lose it's inertia. This means we can accelerate extremely fast with no harm to pilots (or equipment). BUT if we have no inertia (or negligible inertia) this applies to BOTH accelerating and deccelerating. Any miniscule force would stop the ship if engines are off. Space is not perfect vacuum, there always is some kind of drag from resident particles -very very small - but for inertia-less ship it's enough to stop it. Not that any eve's dev thought about it when creating the game :)
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Jacob Holland
Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.17 12:28:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Derek Sigres Every time my Raven explodes I kill 7400 people? I'm a monster. . .
Being immortal does that to you.
It's not like they're a finite resource after all - any time you dock you can find enough people to fill your crew roster several times over, everyone want to crew on a pod equipped vessel (think of how many mission rats you can kill before your Raven dies - that's the difference between traditional command systems and pods).
As to Escape Pods... Not worth having. You have a crew of thousands, they're stationed anything up to a kilometer from the exterior bulkheads - even if you assume they have a fairly straight route with no elevators you're still looking at two minutes and more (at an olympic pace) of running before they get to the lifeboats. That means you abandon ship perhaps 3 minutes before it blows (well before you hit structure in most cases) and lose the ability to repair, shoot, manoeuvre...etc.
Escape pods are a waste of time anyway without an effective search and rescue system. Better to hope that your compartment fully ruptures and you at least die quickly than to sit watching food, water and atmosphere supplies gradually dwindling with a dozen people who are rapidly getting on your nerves, knowing that no matter what you do your corpses won't arrive at the nearest planet for another few hundred years. --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Xavier Maroquin
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Posted - 2008.07.17 13:59:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jacob Holland
Originally by: Derek Sigres Every time my Raven explodes I kill 7400 people? I'm a monster. . .
Being immortal does that to you.
It's not like they're a finite resource after all - any time you dock you can find enough people to fill your crew roster several times over, everyone want to crew on a pod equipped vessel (think of how many mission rats you can kill before your Raven dies - that's the difference between traditional command systems and pods).
As to Escape Pods... Not worth having. You have a crew of thousands, they're stationed anything up to a kilometer from the exterior bulkheads - even if you assume they have a fairly straight route with no elevators you're still looking at two minutes and more (at an olympic pace) of running before they get to the lifeboats. That means you abandon ship perhaps 3 minutes before it blows (well before you hit structure in most cases) and lose the ability to repair, shoot, manoeuvre...etc.
Escape pods are a waste of time anyway without an effective search and rescue system. Better to hope that your compartment fully ruptures and you at least die quickly than to sit watching food, water and atmosphere supplies gradually dwindling with a dozen people who are rapidly getting on your nerves, knowing that no matter what you do your corpses won't arrive at the nearest planet for another few hundred years.
Considering they found a way to jump thousands of light years between stars in a few seconds I'd say they could teleport your crew either to an escape pod or the nearest station or habitable planet in the time your ship breaks up. Does a Boeing 747 instantly turn into a scrap pile when it wrecks?
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Xavier Maroquin
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Posted - 2008.07.17 14:01:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Originally by: Kasutra Edited by: Kasutra on 17/07/2008 01:18:46 Eve does not use physics. It just does stuff regardless of what it may thing.
Originally by: Derek Sigres Every time my Raven explodes I kill 7400 people? I'm a monster. . .
I like to think that they all manage to run for the escape pods (insignificant enough to not show up on our scanners/cameras) and warp to the nearest station.
Jesus sthis stuff is getting me really intoxicated
I don't know about the rest of you but I usually take out those kinds of luxuries so I can mount more armor without adverse affects
Remember the armor is gone? It got blown off so there could be pods hidden under the armor.
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Trevor Warps
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Posted - 2008.07.17 18:15:00 -
[58]
Did you guys see how small is the Eiffel tower compared to a Titan ? Look at the Erebus, it is so massive compared to it.
Make a picture of you standing in front of the Eiffel tower and how big it is. Now keep the chart in mind an picture an Erebus jumping in right above the tower as you are looking. Maaaaaannnnnn ! It's frikkin huge !!!! Imagine how do they build this .... gather a WHOLE ****LOAD of minerals, craft them into bits of titan, assemble ... Must take foooooorever !
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Wideen
Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.17 18:27:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Trevor Warps Did you guys see how small is the Eiffel tower compared to a Titan ? Look at the Erebus, it is so massive compared to it.
Make a picture of you standing in front of the Eiffel tower and how big it is. Now keep the chart in mind an picture an Erebus jumping in right above the tower as you are looking. Maaaaaannnnnn ! It's frikkin huge !!!! Imagine how do they build this .... gather a WHOLE ****LOAD of minerals, craft them into bits of titan, assemble ... Must take foooooorever !
calm down man you're gonna have a frikkin' heat attack
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