Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

- Warp scramblers (the close range ones), are due for a complete
makeover. Our current idea is to have MWD's deactivate as soon as they
get hit by their effect, and continue to be disabled until the effect
is lifted.

- A brief reactivation delay added to the microwarpdrives might ensure
a speedy target actually slowed down, and of course with the MWD
disabled, a webifier would have an even greater effect.

- Our current idea is to have MWD's only differ in capacitor capacity
penalty as well as reactivation delay, instead of the speed
progression between meta levels.

- Currently when you're webbed it's pretty much game over unless
you're doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction
makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been
applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been
reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.

- Nanofibers and polycarbon engine housings changed to affect maximum
velocity and agility (which is basically what they did before, through
mass reduction) would ensure balance, morphing them into a mixture of
overdrives and inertia stabilizers and thus stacking penalized against
those modules. Our current implementation makes 3 nanofibers
approximately as effective as 2 overdrives and 2 inertia stabilizers.
This means, if one would want to fit for maximum speed, go for
overdrives; maximum agility, fit inertia stabilizers; a bit of both,
use nanofibers.

- Polycarbon engine housings are overpowered, both in general and with
regard to corresponding modules; this is because the tech1 version is
currently more effective than a tech2 nanofiber. Following our changes
we're looking at them being 30% less effective than their module
counterparts, which is more similar to the difference between modules
and rigs in other categories.

- Our intent is to have overdrives range from approximately 7% to
12.5%; the high-grade snake set 24.7%; the low-grade snake set 16% and
the gang bonuses down to 25.8% but with an added agility bonus.

- Slot placement of other speed implants may shift

---

Originally by: Bielsibub

---

http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=574-

---

Originally by: Jorafai

---

Speed may have its 'vincible' moments, but if you know what you're doing, and you dont make mistakes (Evil Edna for example), you cannot under any circumstances get caught. Even by a bubble with 5 rapiers, he/she keeps on trucking.

---

Originally by: Jorafai

---

My Blackops may be broken in concept and bonuses etc, but the fact is, most of its 'role' is removed by nanogangs. Why cyno into a system and stealthily, to spy on people...when you can just use a ceptor that goes 14kms, and burn out of range of most things? why use guerilla warfare, when a roaming nanogang does it at 1/4 of the cost, at 3x the survivability?

---

1. 25% increase on Artillary alpha strike damage.
   50% increase for autocannon rate of fire.
   5-10% increase on resists for T1 ships.
   15-20% increase on resists for T2 ships.
   The Muninn to receive an extra turret, 1 high slot to the mid slot, and a 10% increase in PG
   

Originally by: justsometrader

---

Imho this speed change is more designed towards the fact that you could get invulnurable by going at a certain speed, which was not intended by the devs of course. A today called nano-fit will still be able to orbit large chips way faster than they can track, and it will still be able to disengage most of the time. The only thing that is going to get removed is the omgwtf IWIN button version of some special ships

---

Originally by: Elistara Eldore

---

You do realize the the nano ship has to slow down in order to track as well right? Orbiting at high speeds to avoid damage is nice, except you won't hit anything either.

---

Originally by: justsometrader

---

Imho this speed change is more designed towards the fact that you could get invulnurable by going at a certain speed, which was not intended by the devs of course. A today called nano-fit will still be able to orbit large chips way faster than they can track, and it will still be able to disengage most of the time. The only thing that is going to get removed is the omgwtf IWIN button version of some special ships

---

Originally by: Elistara Eldore

---

Originally by: justsometrader

---

Imho this speed change is more designed towards the fact that you could get invulnurable by going at a certain speed, which was not intended by the devs of course. A today called nano-fit will still be able to orbit large chips way faster than they can track, and it will still be able to disengage most of the time. The only thing that is going to get removed is the omgwtf IWIN button version of some special ships

---

You do realize the the nano ship has to slow down in order to track as well right? Orbiting at high speeds to avoid damage is nice, except you won't hit anything either.

---

Originally by: Bielsibub

---

Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 13:54:16

Originally by: Jorafai

---

Speed may have its 'vincible' moments, but if you know what you're doing, and you dont make mistakes (Evil Edna for example), you cannot under any circumstances get caught. Even by a bubble with 5 rapiers, he/she keeps on trucking.

---

IÆm going to go ahead and say you have never flown a nano-hac, or participated in a compitent gate camp, because this is totally false.

Originally by: Jorafai

---

My Blackops may be broken in concept and bonuses etc, but the fact is, most of its 'role' is removed by nanogangs. Why cyno into a system and stealthily, to spy on people...when you can just use a ceptor that goes 14kms, and burn out of range of most things? why use guerilla warfare, when a roaming nanogang does it at 1/4 of the cost, at 3x the survivability?

---

I donÆt think you understand what B-Ops BSÆs were designed for, but I can tell you it wasnÆt to act like a cov-ops and ôspyö on people. Guerilla Warfare = Hit and run, Hit and run = nano gang, nano gang = expensive.

Your argument is essentially ôI need something very specific to counter this, thus itÆs unfairö. This is like saying ôCapital fleets should be nerfed, because I need another Capital fleet to counter itö

---

Originally by: Dirk Magnum

---

The MWD killer scram is a big nerf to gatecamp evasion, now that I think about it. Kinda off topic from the discussion that's developed about nano's, but still relevant to the proposed speed changes.

---

Originally by: Dalek Commander

---

Originally by: Dirk Magnum

---

The MWD killer scram is a big nerf to gatecamp evasion, now that I think about it. Kinda off topic from the discussion that's developed about nano's, but still relevant to the proposed speed changes.

---

It won't stop the MWD=>Cloak=>UnCloak=>Warp combo, unless the activation delay means it won't kick in once the cloak is active. Be curious how the devs approach that.

---

Originally by: Dirk Magnum

---

The MWD killer scram is a big nerf to gatecamp evasion, now that I think about it. Kinda off topic from the discussion that's developed about nano's, but still relevant to the proposed speed changes.

---

Originally by: Orange Faeces

---

Edited by: Orange Faeces on 25/07/2008 14:41:41
I'm glad to see tears from you speed freaks in here... You've earned it after years of dominating PvP.

After all the talk, nano-HAC gangs are frequently uncatchable, even with multiple matari recons. I think the devs post is one of the best written and long awaited texts to come out of CCP in a long time. Thanks, CCP.

The Other Orange

---

Originally by: Reem Fairchild

---

Speed is still going to be very effective after those changes go through.

---

Originally by: Jorafai

---

Not at all mate. Flown a few nanohacs/cruisers - And never liked the style of combat. Have you ever caught a 23kms Crow? (before overloading) Edna has only lost one, in years of flying them, bar from one, which was a bizarre instance anyhow i believe.

As for black ops, to get into a system you need a cyno (bar from average gates). to do that, you need a cov ops. Cov ops = spying etc. Didnt describe what i meant fully i guess. In regards to the Guerilla warfare...Black ops are hit and run mate. You take a target of opportunity, and cloak before the reinforcements come along. But yes, nanogangs are hit and run. And because of the survivability of them, black ops are outclassed completely (not entirely due to nanos, but a large portion). And sorry, but how much does a vaga cost? 200 mil with polys? My ship costs 4 times that amount, a year more worth of sp, and far more vulnerabilities. Heck, a BS attacks me, i tend to be pretty screwed. Id love to see a vaga or nano*** ship have that vulnerability.

fact is, my arguement is 'i need something very specfic to counter this, thus its unfair'. A carrier can be taken out by 2 domi's if setup correctly. A carrier can be tackled by a single frigate/ceptor, and that frig/ceptor can survive. Your whole 'carrier fleet' reference/analogy/comparison is flawed in that aspect, that you're comparing a collaboration of two fleets versus each other. Capital vs capital. The discussion here is nanos. A single nano vs multiples is still just as hard to catch.


There need to be more ways to catch them. Only then will they become less common, and less overpowered. A nanopilot CAN escape all scenarios, unless they get webbed/alpha'd by transversal - Both of which are avoidable with skill. And that in itself makes nanos not have a counter imo.

<EDIT>

This way, we have 3 recon races that can 'catch' nanos. Thats perfect imo. One neuts, one webs, and one scrambles (arazu) which in turn webs them. A bonus, seeing as how usually its a case of having to wait for a rapier/huggin pilot to log on most of the time.

---

Originally by: Dirk Magnum

---

The MWD killer scram is a big nerf to gatecamp evasion, now that I think about it. Kinda off topic from the discussion that's developed about nano's, but still relevant to the proposed speed changes.

---

Originally by: Zraken Hawkwing

---

I wonder if the proposed changes will affect the short term pricing of vagas?

I remember when the new bomb details were revealed, stealth bomber prices went thorugh the roof for awhile.

Speed nerf = vaga less expensive?

AUMS = Another useless minmatar ship? (Amarr use mighty setups?)

---

Originally by: Bielsibub

---

Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 13:28:03
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=574

I haven't seen much on this yet, so here we go.

Here's the major points and posibilities for those who don't want to read through the whole thing.

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

- Warp scramblers (the close range ones), are due for a complete
makeover. Our current idea is to have MWD's deactivate as soon as they
get hit by their effect, and continue to be disabled until the effect
is lifted.

- A brief reactivation delay added to the microwarpdrives might ensure
a speedy target actually slowed down, and of course with the MWD
disabled, a webifier would have an even greater effect.

- Our current idea is to have MWD's only differ in capacitor capacity
penalty as well as reactivation delay, instead of the speed
progression between meta levels.

- Currently when you're webbed it's pretty much game over unless
you're doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction
makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been
applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been
reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%.

- Nanofibers and polycarbon engine housings changed to affect maximum
velocity and agility (which is basically what they did before, through
mass reduction) would ensure balance, morphing them into a mixture of
overdrives and inertia stabilizers and thus stacking penalized against
those modules. Our current implementation makes 3 nanofibers
approximately as effective as 2 overdrives and 2 inertia stabilizers.
This means, if one would want to fit for maximum speed, go for
overdrives; maximum agility, fit inertia stabilizers; a bit of both,
use nanofibers.

- Polycarbon engine housings are overpowered, both in general and with
regard to corresponding modules; this is because the tech1 version is
currently more effective than a tech2 nanofiber. Following our changes
we're looking at them being 30% less effective than their module
counterparts, which is more similar to the difference between modules
and rigs in other categories.

- Our intent is to have overdrives range from approximately 7% to
12.5%; the high-grade snake set 24.7%; the low-grade snake set 16% and
the gang bonuses down to 25.8% but with an added agility bonus.

- Slot placement of other speed implants may shift

---

---

Originally by: Zraken Hawkwing

---

Speed nerf = vaga less expensive?

---

Originally by: Akyla

---

Originally by: Zraken Hawkwing

---

Speed nerf = vaga less expensive?

---

Actually, going faster than others will become more important because increasing speed is (much) more difficult. And the vaga is still king, with 5% per lvl bonus to speed. On top of that, webbing it will have less effect so it's less risky too strafe at low speeds(the vaga's only way to deliver its dps).

So it might even become more expensive.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Today is a good day to be Caldari spec: range has just become vastly more important.

---

Originally by: onetoke overtheline

---

might as well change the name of this patch to f-you matar

---

Originally by: Gypsio III

---

The Minnie speed advantage just got more powerful.

---

Originally by: Bielsibub

---

CCP claims speed is "invincible" in this blog. I have some major issues with this.

---

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Currently weÆve got a number of different systems that affect speed that arenÆt stacking nerfed towards each other, resulting in phenomenal speed that in turn results in near invulnerability.

---

Originally by: EveTerrorist

---

Originally by: Bielsibub

---

CCP claims speed is "invincible" in this blog. I have some major issues with this.

---

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Currently weÆve got a number of different systems that affect speed that arenÆt stacking nerfed towards each other, resulting in phenomenal speed that in turn results in near invulnerability.

---

Don't make things out worse than they are. Adapt, overcome or go play WoW.

Eve

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

Originally by: Akyla

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps.

---

Originally by: Wardeneo

---

Originally by: Akyla

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps.

---

exactly i think that the nano nerf shud effect all races bar minmitar, cos minmitar have rubbish tanks, rubbish dps to other races (in most cases) and now they want to nerf the only thing minmitar excells at --> spped, imo minmitar will be the worst race in the game after this nerf, just like ammar used to be --. thinks about training ammar ^^

wardeneo

---

Originally by: Wardeneo

---

Originally by: Akyla

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps.

---

exactly i think that the nano nerf shud effect all races bar minmitar, cos minmitar have rubbish tanks, rubbish dps to other races (in most cases) and now they want to nerf the only thing minmitar excells at --> spped, imo minmitar will be the worst race in the game after this nerf, just like ammar used to be --. thinks about training ammar ^^

wardeneo

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

Originally by: Dzajic

---

Forgetting that since people cried about not being able to keep nanoHACs in web range, HOW THE HELL are you going to keep them at 7.5km.

---

Originally by: Zraken Hawkwing

---

I wonder if the proposed changes will affect the short term pricing of vagas?

Speed nerf = vaga less expensive?

---

Originally by: Gypsio III

---

Originally by: onetoke overtheline

---

might as well change the name of this patch to f-you matar

---

The Minnie speed advantage just got more powerful.

---

Originally by: Bielsibub

---

Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 13:27:36
CCP claims speed is "invincible" in this blog. I have some major issues with this.

Anyone who actually pilots nano-speed ships like nano-hacs could tell you, that no matter what ridiculous speeds you can reach, your ship is far from invincible. The slightest error will land you bouncing off a gate or approaching too fast, or orbiting too close and you will find yourself in a horrible situation. People like to act as if speed is some magical force where you just it one button and you win. It is far from that. In general you are required to slow down to very slow speeds in order to actually deal damage to enemies, as mentioned it becomes very difficult and takes skill to actually control a ship at high speeds, not to mention the insane price it costs to make these setups. The nano-speed pilot takes a massive gamble every time he undocks, as one wrong move could end up in the loss of billions of isk.

I would go as far as to say fairly sufficient balance already exists to counter pure speed setups.
There are a myriad of counters that exist for hunting down speed fit ships. There are ships specifically resigned with web bonuses for tackling these sorts of setups. I will agree on one point, that a few more options, such as the modified warp scrambler, could not hurt.

The current suggestions are almost as if CCP just want to remove one form of balance and replace it with another. "Let's slow everything down, but decrease the amount that statis webifiers decrease speed"? How is this different than keeping it the ways it is?

I only see this nerf as completely destroying the small gang, hit and run, fast paced, lag free, part of the game that so many pvper currently enjoy.

As I previously stated, I agree that more options to counter the speed, such as the ônewö Warp Scrambler is a decent idea. Currently, your counter to a speed gang pretty much requires an apposing gang with multiple Rapiers in it, no speed pilot in his right mind would go near it. The new Warp Scrambler would also breathe new life into the Arazu and make for some other very interesting combinations.

However, drastically decreasing speed AND providing more options to counter the speed, is like a double whammy nerf, of a very fun part of this game.

---

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

---

What is left to find out tho is if speed will be worth anything at all, if the answer is yes minnie wins

---

Originally by: Akyla

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps.

---

Originally by: Pliskkenn

---

Originally by: Akyla

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps.

---

Thast a bit of an exageration, if you want to just sit in an orbit and fire away you could slow down to 1300m/s and still be within the acceptable range.

---

Originally by: Kronos Hopeslayer

---

25% increase on Artillary alpha strike damage.
50% increase for autocannon rate of fire.
5-10% increase on resists for T1 ships.
15-20% increase on resists for T2 ships.
The Muninn to receive an extra turret, 1 high slot to the mid slot, and a 10% increase in PG

---

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi

---

Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:57:22
Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:56:26

Originally by: Dzajic

---

Forgetting that since people cried about not being able to keep nanoHACs in web range, HOW THE HELL are you going to keep them at 7.5km.

---

Am I the only one that thinks the scram mwd disable effect isn't meant for catching fast ships, but instead actually meant for tackling AB ships to disable mwd's on bigger ship class so that even webbed you maintain a speed advantage over the enemy and hence can speedtank a bit of turret fire?

Also, nice buff for gallente recons aswell, we'll see multi-scram lachesises again :)

All in all, it looks better than I thought, altho I'd still vote for a bit of a boost on AB effect and bit more detailed webbing changes, and maybe change the target painter bonus on minny recons for web effect bonus.

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi

---

Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:57:22
Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:56:26

Originally by: Dzajic

---

Forgetting that since people cried about not being able to keep nanoHACs in web range, HOW THE HELL are you going to keep them at 7.5km.

---

Am I the only one that thinks the scram mwd disable effect isn't meant for catching fast ships, but instead actually meant for tackling AB ships to disable mwd's on bigger ship class so that even webbed you maintain a speed advantage over the enemy and hence can speedtank a bit of turret fire?

Also, nice buff for gallente recons aswell, we'll see multi-scram lachesises again :)

All in all, it looks better than I thought, altho I'd still vote for a bit of a boost on AB effect and bit more detailed webbing changes, and maybe change the target painter bonus on minny recons for web effect bonus.

---

Correct.

I'd like a AB slight buff too to make it easier to reapproach gates, but with the fix it's not going to be that mandatory, and yes, it's now a big boost to smaller stuff attacking bigger stuff.

---

Originally by: Pax Empyrean

---

By the way, anybody else notice the big jump in Assault Ship top speed? :)

---

Originally by: Forge Lag

---

Nanos do not go into web range much less into scram range so scram change does not affect them - same as before, you get into web you die.

Speed is still opposed check so to speak, the difference is what matters for you to control range and control what to engae and disengage, so minmatar keep the position of speed kings, with the change that none else can now tweak their ships to compete.

All that got sorted is the top speed goes down so devs do not have to redo tracking and missiles. Welcomed move but far from solving the many issues speed has....

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Tbh, this makes the game too complicated, why such radical changes :(

---

Originally by: SuiJuris

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Tbh, this makes the game too complicated, why such radical changes :(

---

You play Eve its a MMORPG for Grown ups. If you don't want to play a complicated game.... go play wow.

---

Originally by: Isonkon Serikain

---

Currently you cannot effectively tank a minmatar ship (though you can build nice buffer tanks). They are the weakest tankers because of their bonuses and slot layouts. Speed was the minmatar way to fight, and if it is nerfed too much, there will be no point flying a minmatar T2 cruiser-sized ship.

---

Originally by: Isonkon Serikain

---

Currently you cannot effectively tank a minmatar ship (though you can build nice buffer tanks). They are the weakest tankers because of their bonuses and slot layouts. Speed was the minmatar way to fight, and if it is nerfed too much, there will be no point flying a minmatar ship.

I fail to see the "broken physics engine" that is lamented over in the dev blog. People have adapted and the engine works fine. So what if some missiles and drones can't catch up with super fast ships (which are fast at the cost of fragility or damage output). There are MUCH simpler fixes to that. Boost the speed of precision missiles, change their stats a bit, problem solved. IF you must change drone stats, I suggest doubling the optimal range to give drones that extra change to shoot a running target.

The speed nerf is a stupid idea because it kills a fast reaction gameplay style that is fun for a lot of people (it can be pretty exhilarating to zip through a fleet fight at high speed, for example). I don't know why they love long slow tedious engagements at CCP. They seem to do everything to make fights slower and longer lasting. First it was the HP boost, now this. A year from now you'll have time to take a bio break during a BS fight. yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay zzzzzzzz.

This is the last nail in the coffin for this toon. I'm finishing up my fleet of ships and retiring.

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/07/2008 17:38:14
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/07/2008 17:36:37

Originally by: Isonkon Serikain

---

Currently you cannot effectively tank a minmatar ship (though you can build nice buffer tanks). They are the weakest tankers because of their bonuses and slot layouts. Speed was the minmatar way to fight, and if it is nerfed too much, there will be no point flying a minmatar T2 cruiser-sized ship.

---

I've corrected it for you.

Yes, this is effectively a major nerf to Minmatar T2 cruiser-sized ships.

T1 lineup remains mostly unchanged except the Stabber which is now after a huge list of successive nerfs affecting it a piece of rubbish inferior to everything else, and it's a big buff to the AFs (but it does buff all AFs though, they had their speeds somewhat fixed) and small ships in general. Tanked sleipnirs remain preety unchanged.

Vagabond will be preety meh most likely, and Munnin is a piece of crap anyway, and the Huggin/Rapier got doubly nerfed (although they were the most popular solo recons, and they'll still preety much be).

For me personally, refusing to play with Minmatar nanoships and investing my SP into the T1 lineup is going to pay good dividends. As with everyone who invests in the most popular thing, he ends up loosing, that's how the world works.

---

Originally by: Isonkon Serikain

---

T1 minnie cruisers are also affected. They don't really hold a candle to other race's counterparts without a significant speed advantage...

---

Quote:

---

T1 minnie cruisers are also affected. They don't really hold a candle to other race's counterparts without a significant speed advantage...

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/07/2008 18:07:48

Originally by: Isonkon Serikain

---

T1 minnie cruisers are also affected. They don't really hold a candle to other race's counterparts without a significant speed advantage...

---

I fly a Rupture if I'm in a T1 cruiser. Generally, if you're not fitting at least a 800mm RT (and preferably a 1600mm RT) you're doing it wrong (the lovely bit about the Rupture is that the grid was balanced for arties, so it actually can fit ACs plus MWD plus plates).

In such configurations they can slug it out with preety much everyone.

---

Originally by: Boz Well

---

What's left? Rupture, plated cane, tanked sleip, phoon... we're running out of decent ships.

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/07/2008 18:34:33

Originally by: Boz Well

---

What's left? Rupture, plated cane, tanked sleip, phoon... we're running out of decent ships.

---

That part is true, I'd list Rifter (yes, a frigate, I know), Rupture, Hurricane and Phoon as our remaining solid ships. It is sort of, well, too few.

The AFs are getting changed (read:faster, almost as fast as frigates) this patch though, so they might be solid now actually, who knows?

---

Originally by: Isonkon Serikain

---

This is the last nail in the coffin for this toon. I'm finishing up my fleet of ships and retiring.

---

Originally by: Bielsibub

---

Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 16:20:58

Originally by: Pliskkenn

---

Originally by: Akyla

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps.

---

Thast a bit of an exageration, if you want to just sit in an orbit and fire away you could slow down to 1300m/s and still be within the acceptable range.

---

AC's have this thing called tracking, and with barrage (which is what gives you range), is horrible. HE's not just talking about range. You will have horrible DPS orbiting at 1300 m/s no matter what the range.

---

Originally by: Faceoff Tastic

---

Originally by: Bielsibub

---

Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 16:20:58

Originally by: Pliskkenn

---

Originally by: Akyla

---

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov

---

Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...

---

And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps.

---

Thast a bit of an exageration, if you want to just sit in an orbit and fire away you could slow down to 1300m/s and still be within the acceptable range.

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AC's have this thing called tracking, and with barrage (which is what gives you range), is horrible. HE's not just talking about range. You will have horrible DPS orbiting at 1300 m/s no matter what the range.

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I flew my Stabber quite alot, theres a reason I pulled out such a specific number.

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Originally by: Pax Empyrean

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By the way, anybody else notice the big jump in Assault Ship top speed? :)

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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This seems like a Matar boost instead of nerf as now no one else can do the speed thing very well and you still can...

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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Minmatar ships as a whole are faster and lighter then everyone elses. There cutting speed its true. But whereas the Minmatar HAC's might still have a chance of nagating damage with speed the other races HAC's can just forget it.

No More Nano, Sacrilege/Zealot, Cerb never could / No one used the Diemos. It really depends on how much there nerfing things. There is less ways to increase speed and Minmatar start out faster.

oh and yes your recons are getting kicked in the balls.

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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Minmatar ships as a whole are faster and lighter then everyone elses. There cutting speed its true. But whereas the Minmatar HAC's might still have a chance of nagating damage with speed the other races HAC's can just forget it.

No More Nano, Sacrilege/Zealot, Cerb never could / No one used the Diemos. It really depends on how much there nerfing things. There is less ways to increase speed and Minmatar start out faster.

oh and yes your recons are getting kicked in the balls.

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Originally by: P'uck

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I think I never complained about any changes (at least not in advance ) but this time I have the feeling it's just too much at once. Too many too important changes in one go.

Slower, one by one, watching what happens. I thought that's how it's done. But meh, what do I know...

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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It's still percentages. It's always percentages.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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If their effectiveness is halved, so is ours. You're not understanding that. It has nothing to do with our lower masses and higher base speed... If there was no stacking penalties, your argument MIGHT have merit.. except minmatar ships don't have very many lowslots, so that's out the window too.

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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Lets say everyone elses HACS now top out at 2.8kms and yours top out at 3.x while were not fast enough to mitigate damage but Minmatar is still over that threshold. OH MY GOODNESS, so it DOES depend on how far its nerfed. Also being faster you can still decide rather or not you fight.

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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No because they had more low slots to increase theres then you so them

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Quote:

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not being stack nerfed Benefited Amarr / Gallente not Minmatar.

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It has EVERYTHING to do with your higher base speed and lower masses since now there is no effective way to reduce mass and the other ways to increase speed are affected.

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Let me explain, a 7 low slot Zealot NEEDED those low slots to fit all those speed modules, now it will only get the full effect from a couple of the same thing. So now the Zealot is less likely to be able to make up for the fact that it starts out slower then Minmatar.

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Now if they did nerf things to far, which seems quite possible considering all the changes being made at once. Then not even Minmatar will be able to speed tank with bigger ships.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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No because they had more low slots to increase theres then you so them

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What?

Quote:

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not being stack nerfed Benefited Amarr / Gallente not Minmatar.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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It still doesn't make sense. Get rid of all your pronouns. I don't even understand what you're saying.

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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It still doesn't make sense. Get rid of all your pronouns. I don't even understand what you're saying.

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Ok in Short, Amarr / Gallente have more low slots then Minmatar, so since there is 3 different kinds of mods that effect speed, The fact that they were not stacknerfed benefited Amarr / Gallente not Minmatar. That clear enough for you?

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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No because they had more low slots to increase theres then you so them not being stack nerfed Benefited Amarr / Gallente not Minmatar.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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It still doesn't make sense. Get rid of all your pronouns. I don't even understand what you're saying.

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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Pretty much boils down to, wait for monday, hope, Test, give feedback, hope, wait.

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Originally by: P'uck

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Originally by: SuiJuris

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Pretty much boils down to, wait for monday, hope, Test, give feedback, hope, wait.

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You forgot nerdrage and whine.

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Originally by: Atari Sakura

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What I don't understand is why they are nerfing the Huginn and Rapier, two ships that are extremely good Anti-Nano ships in an attempt to nerf nano. Also, if Warp Scramblers (the close range ones) do end up turning off the Micro Warp Drive, how will that change things? They have a range of 9km's Webs have a range of 10km's, all Nano pilots stay out of web range, so naturally they will stay out of Scram range, the only ships that will viably be able to hit a Nano ship would be an Arazu or Lachesis. Now I agree that these ships need a boost, but that is a subject for another day. Also the Web Nerf will make hitting something with a blaster boat very hard, since there tracking is iffy anyway. I see no problem with the way things currently are, there are so many counters to nanos.
-Huginn/Rapier
-Cruise missiles (Especially perscicsions)
-Any Battleship with Heavy Neuts
-Overheating (Doesn't always work, but can)
-Curse
Most of the ships that are Nano'd are nano'd because they are very expensive ships that don't tank well. Have you ever tried to active tank a Huginn, or an Ishtar? It fails. Eve is a game where the risk of losing your ship is very high, it only makes sense that people fly nano ships to avoid losing ships often. I don't see these speed changes fixing any problems, because there are no problems to fix.

Adapt or die.

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Originally by: Nightelf Mowhawk

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this will kill eve as we know it , for pvp'ers anyway. ofc i and i hope alot of other ppl with test the sh*t out of it when it drops in sisi on monday

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Originally by: Rawr Cristina

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Originally by: Nightelf Mowhawk

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this will kill eve as we know it , for pvp'ers anyway. ofc i and i hope alot of other ppl with test the sh*t out of it when it drops in sisi on monday

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did you know EVE before the nano age?

It was fun.

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Originally by: Mortuus

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Yea, pre-nano EvE was much more interesting. Lots of people I know are reactivating with these kind of changes going through.

Speed isn't dead, its just been redistributed to the ships that SHOULD be capable of outrunning anything short of another of their kind. HACs will still outrun anything bigger than them, just not ships smaller than them....just like every other ship in EvE.

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Originally by: Trader Jjenna

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small gangs are essentially dead.

What will 5 pilots do versus 30 - they cannot outrun them or harass them. Viva le blobs!

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Originally by: Rathion

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Originally by: Trader Jjenna

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small gangs are essentially dead.

What will 5 pilots do versus 30 - they cannot outrun them or harass them. Viva le blobs!

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Somebody call the WAAAMBULENCE, you can't fight 1v6 anymore.... you SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO.

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Originally by: Mortuus

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Are you kidding me? All speeds got lower, Minmatar will now have a clear advantage in speed in all ship classes. We used to rely on falloff to win, now we can go into Hail and EMP range to do more damage without an overwhelming fear of webs vs some opponents, and stay in barrage range vs others. Hell, with this change I will take on a blasterthron with a Vaga.

Run straight up, stick to 0m, web, scram, done. (No, they cannot hit you at 0m or so if you turn off your MWD, yes I have killed one at that range before, much lulz)

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Originally by: Trader Jjenna

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small gangs are essentially dead.

What will 5 pilots do versus 30 - they cannot outrun them or harass them. Viva le blobs!

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Mortuus

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Are you kidding me? All speeds got lower, Minmatar will now have a clear advantage in speed in all ship classes. We used to rely on falloff to win, now we can go into Hail and EMP range to do more damage without an overwhelming fear of webs vs some opponents, and stay in barrage range vs others. Hell, with this change I will take on a blasterthron with a Vaga.

Run straight up, stick to 0m, web, scram, done. (No, they cannot hit you at 0m or so if you turn off your MWD, yes I have killed one at that range before, much lulz)

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There is so much fail in this post I won't even try. Congratulations sir, you lose the internet.

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Originally by: Mortuus

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Yea, because I have never done it before...oh wait, you can get under the guns, and with the webs being nerfed to hell you can stay with them without needing to worry about it.

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A 7.5km scrambled mega will not outrun a webbed Vaga with no speed mod going. At those ranges they cannot hit you either.

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Been there, done it. Not hard.

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Falloff = less damage. Now I can close to range of most ships with a smaller one and not have to worry so much about a single web. How is this bad?

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Base speeds aren't changed, just the MWD multiplier and stacking for polycarbons and nanos. All Minmatar ships will still have a speed advantage in their class, they can still fight in falloff, and now have the extremely viable option of closing with a larger ship.

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I can tell from your corp history and massive amount of kills that you must know more about this than I do.

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Learn to fly Minmatar, it wasn't always all about sitting at 17k and pulsing your MWD on your nanoship.

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Originally by: the frickin' dev blog

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If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds. Even when we did some basic tests on our internal servers, with special high-speed missiles, we quickly noticed Destiny (our physics engine) behaving very strangely.

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Originally by: Rawr Cristina

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Originally by: Nightelf Mowhawk

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this will kill eve as we know it , for pvp'ers anyway. ofc i and i hope alot of other ppl with test the sh*t out of it when it drops in sisi on monday

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did you know EVE before the nano age?

It was fun.

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Originally by: Akyla

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I really like the way they fixed this. Truly.

Nanoships are currently too fast to force them into combat, yet if the nanoships themselves choose to attack they run the risk of getting webbed and dying without a fighting chance. So they only prey on really easy targets, which means no proper PvP combat.

The current fix both makes them go slower so they can actually be engaged, while the change to webs means they can actually engage combat without risking instant-death. So, more interesting combat, with fast ships still a good choice for guerilla work.

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Originally by: El Mauru

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Edited by: El Mauru on 26/07/2008 07:17:22

Originally by: Akyla

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I really like the way they fixed this. Truly.

Nanoships are currently too fast to force them into combat, yet if the nanoships themselves choose to attack they run the risk of getting webbed and dying without a fighting chance. So they only prey on really easy targets, which means no proper PvP combat.

The current fix both makes them go slower so they can actually be engaged, while the change to webs means they can actually engage combat without risking instant-death. So, more interesting combat, with fast ships still a good choice for guerilla work.

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This pretty much hits the nail on the head imho. Tohugh there was always nano vs nano combat which was interesting in it's own way :-)

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Originally by: beor oranes

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Just read the dev blog and over all I like the sound of it.

YAY SPEED NURF!!! :-)

The 2 things that I didn't like the sound of was the changes to boosters and snake implants.

I think boosters should stay as they are, a reduction in sig radius will mean that not many people would use them (I know I wouldn't).

Snake implants should be inline with other implants, like crystal or slave. You pay through the nose for them anyway, why should you get less of a bonus?!

(If both these points have already been said in the thread then sorry for repeating but I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing)

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: beor oranes

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my Stuff

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his Stuff

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Originally by: Teh LuLz

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Possibly already been said but I CBA to read all the pages, won't the web nerf make smaller ships a lot more effective against larger ships?

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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The "problems" with nano ships were never the result of a single module - it was the fact that the combination of modules made many ships so useful it made no sense to fit your ship otherwise.

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Originally by: beor oranes

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: beor oranes

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my Stuff

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his Stuff

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I beg to differ about crystals especially, though I don't run with slaves so can't really comment.

I have seen personally a Maelstrom with crystals take damage from enough BSs to drop almost anything and slow boat it back to a gate with multiple webs on it. The only reason they killed it was because he ran out of cap boosters on the other side of the gate...

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