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Ajita al Tchar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
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Posted - 2012.03.23 09:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Maximillian Dragonard wrote:I fly all 4 races command ships... without BC V in each race, I would immediately loose access to 3/4 of that ship class. That violates CCP's stated position that "if you fly it now, you'll be able to fly it later". I don't see your idea happening for this very reason. (thankfully!)
Really? Who do people keep repeating this thing about not being able to fly all their command ships if they suddenly lost [racial] BC V? It's not even correct.
This isn't how ships and skills work in EVE. Take a look at prereqs for, say, Sleipniers:
Minmatar Cruiser V Command Ships I Heavy Assault Ships IV
This is what you need to sit in a Sleip. Now, you need other skills to be able to inject the required skills, but this is not at all the same thing as actually requiring BC V (that is, having it listed as the root the tree for either a primary, secondary or tertiary skill required). If you lost BC 5 right now, you'd still be able to fly it because you would still have Minmatar Cruiser V, Command Ships I and Heavy Assault Ships IV. Obviously in order to gain the ability to inject Command Ships you needed BC V. There's a big difference between "The ship's Primary Skill required is Battlecruisers V" and "To inject the skill Command Ships I need Battlecruisers V". Remember, there was no mention of the idea that losing BC V "untrains" the skills that depend on it. In fact, CCP even said that "because of how nested skills work", people would still be able to fly their all their CSs and whatnot even if they were to lose the BC V skill for some races. It should be clear by now why that is so.
HOWEVER, if the change were implemented in some way that doesn't give [racial] BC V to all the people who currently have the generic BC V skill trained, suddenly one of the ship skill bonuses for command ships becomes more interesting. For example, Sleip: "Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 7.5% bonus to Shield Booster effectiveness per level"
So, people would still be able to fly all 4 races' command ships because see above, but the command ships in the race for which they don't have BC V suddenly become worse than they were. Currently these T1 ship skill bonuses for T2 ships are kind of odd because you already have them at V due to needing V to inject the T2 skillbook (might be better with wording like "ship type bonus" or something and have a flat value), and suddenly they do make a difference for some people (because you're in a ship for which you shouldn't have been able to inject one of the required skills given your current skill set). The difference between "able to fly" and "able to fly as before" becomes a non-zero value.
NB: The last two paragraphs are based on the idea that you will not get all racial BC V's even if you already have the generic BC V skill; it is unlikely to be the case. It seems to not be the plan CCP is likely to go with, nor do they have any concrete plans at all. |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.03.24 00:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pvc Pipe wrote:Meh
I am not a purist and I planned to train those skills anyway, but damned if I am not annoyed that I have to get them all trained right away or face loosing potential sp. Pretty much eats up the next month of my skill training time where I would be otherwise training immediately useful things.
I can see what CCP are trying to do here making BC less of a giant training target while balancing other ship classes, but I don't agree with them using skillpoint inflation to help accomplish that goal. It is a direct harm to incoming players and the only way to make it not so is to screw over older players who would no longer be able to fly their command ships, interdictors, etc.
i have the same issue but i dont mind it that much (tho a bit as i realy need some other **** but well that is all delayed for 30 days but the gain is worth it. i hope they will give us the SPs for all destroyer and BCs so we can spend them diffrently to compensate. then i will be uber happy |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.03.24 00:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ajita al Tchar wrote:[quote=Maximillian Dragonard] very long story and making decent points
tho you are not completly wrong and about the command ships you are right funny as i never checked that . i just checked preq and then you need BC 5
tho he will miss out on ships he could fly ofc if they dont reimburse as he cant fly all races BCs and destroyers. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
558
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Posted - 2012.03.24 02:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:So you think it is right for players to LOSE the ability to fly ships they could already be sitting in? wtf?
I can understand why you dont want SP awarded, but this is a FAR better option than stripping players of the ability to fly ships they can already fly. Surely you can agree with that. So unless CCP go back on the skill restructuring, this is their only option.
Unless you have a better idea? Well, BC is a rank 6 skill, so how about making the racial BC skills rank 1 and refunding the SP difference.
Destroyers is harder as it is rank 2. No ideas on that one. |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.03.24 02:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Blatant Forum Alt wrote:So you think it is right for players to LOSE the ability to fly ships they could already be sitting in? wtf?
I can understand why you dont want SP awarded, but this is a FAR better option than stripping players of the ability to fly ships they can already fly. Surely you can agree with that. So unless CCP go back on the skill restructuring, this is their only option.
Unless you have a better idea? Well, BC is a rank 6 skill, so how about making the racial BC skills rank 1 and refunding the SP difference. Destroyers is harder as it is rank 2. No ideas on that one.
that is completly ridiculous! its rank 6 skill for a reason... would not make sense that its easier to learn how to fly a frigite or cruiser then the BC. suck it up there is no other way to do this proper for all persons then to:
1. give the players the SPs to train all the racial BCs and destroyers for as much as they could before 2. give them the racial skills accordingly what they could fly before the change
tho there are 2 options both gibving the same amount of SPs |
Torak Dakos
The Restless Masquerade Hedonistic Imperative
1
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Posted - 2012.03.24 11:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
why complain about giving free SP away, yes the number next to SP will grow but the pilot have exact same ability's as before -.-
i |
Togrockz
Mythos Corp HELL4S
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 13:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ajita al Tchar wrote:Maximillian Dragonard wrote:I fly all 4 races command ships... without BC V in each race, I would immediately loose access to 3/4 of that ship class. That violates CCP's stated position that "if you fly it now, you'll be able to fly it later". I don't see your idea happening for this very reason. (thankfully!) Really? Who do people keep repeating this thing about not being able to fly all their command ships if they suddenly lost [racial] BC V? It's not even correct. This isn't how ships and skills work in EVE. Take a look at prereqs for, say, Sleipniers: Minmatar Cruiser V Command Ships I Heavy Assault Ships IV This is what you need to sit in a Sleip. Now, you need other skills to be able to inject the required skills, but this is not at all the same thing as actually requiring BC V (that is, having it listed as the root the tree for either a primary, secondary or tertiary skill required). If you lost BC 5 right now, you'd still be able to fly it because you would still have Minmatar Cruiser V, Command Ships I and Heavy Assault Ships IV. Obviously in order to gain the ability to inject Command Ships you needed BC V. There's a big difference between "The ship's Primary Skill required is Battlecruisers V" and "To inject the skill Command Ships I need Battlecruisers V". Remember, there was no mention of the idea that losing BC V "untrains" the skills that depend on it. In fact, CCP even said that "because of how nested skills work", people would still be able to fly their all their CSs and whatnot even if they were to lose the BC V skill for some races. It should be clear by now why that is so. HOWEVER, if the change were implemented in some way that doesn't give [racial] BC V to all the people who currently have the generic BC V skill trained, suddenly one of the ship skill bonuses for command ships becomes more interesting. For example, Sleip: "Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 7.5% bonus to Shield Booster effectiveness per level" So, people would still be able to fly all 4 races' command ships because see above, but the command ships in the race for which they don't have BC V suddenly become worse than they were. Currently these T1 ship skill bonuses for T2 ships are kind of odd because you already have them at V due to needing V to inject the T2 skillbook (might be better with wording like "ship type bonus" or something and have a flat value), and suddenly they do make a difference for some people (because you're in a ship for which you shouldn't have been able to inject one of the required skills given your current skill set). The difference between "able to fly" and "able to fly as before" becomes a non-zero value. NB: The last two paragraphs are based on the idea that you will not get all racial BC V's even if you already have the generic BC V skill; it is unlikely to be the case. It seems to not be the plan CCP is likely to go with, nor do they have any concrete plans at all.
u kinda got this wrong in your sleipnir example.With the new ship progression ccp considers, sleipnir will require bc 5 and It wont require any cruiser skill or any heavy assault ship skill.So this is kinda of a mess here.They say you wont "loose the ability" to fly the ships u already fly.What does this exactly means thoug Here are a few questions i would really like to see some answers o
1) Suppose i have min cruisers 3, caldari cruisers 5(which i only trained for lets say tengu) and bc a)Now with that setup i could fly a nighthawk (with some extra skills as well), but lets say the real reason i trained bc 5 was -lest say- to fly a perfect hurricane and a perfect drak So after patch i still get min bc 5 and caldari bc5? If so i get for free another ship i previously couldnt fly and thats sleipnir(which i dont care about).They also let me fly nighthawk based on my previous skills which i also dont care abou They give me caldari bc 5 which i do care about since it concerns the drake.How about min bc though?What are they going to give me? If they give me min bc 5 ill be happy.They can however give me min bc 2, which will still "give me the ability" to fly the hurricane(but not the sleipnir, which i couldnt fly before) but thats not the reason why i did train bc to lvl 5...
b)Also after the change you will need bc to 4 to train for bs.In my previous example i cannot fly min bs because i have min cruiser 3.So what happens now? i stay with min cruiser 3 and battlecruiser 5? Isnt this kinda hard since bc will require cruiser 4?And even so, i will still be able to inject the bs skill because ill have the bc skill at the correct re
c)lets say i trained amar bs 5 a few months ago, and i still have a lot to go for carrier.What will happen now? do i get the skill reimbersed? Surely you can say that the toon can still use it but thats obviously not the reason why someone would spend 30days training it.After all eve is all about specialization right?So if i had trained some navigation skills first, i get to win those 30days, if not, i get ccp and my friends to laugh down on me? Same goes for the command ships and dictors.If i trained for a sleipnir or a sabre do i get the cruiser and frigate skills reimbursed after the patc
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Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
55
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Posted - 2012.03.24 13:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
On c., you'll almost definately will NOT get the skill reimbursed. Amarr BS5 still has it uses, same as before. |
Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
4
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Posted - 2012.03.24 14:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
It's like reading the same three different views on the subject a hundred times over in three hundred different formats. Thanks.
In any case... One thing I would like to announce: If you don't already have Battlecruisers V, you're doing it wrong. amiright? |
Recknin
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.03.25 04:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
So once this change is implemented, will the Command Ships skill itself remain generic? Or will it also be split into 4? Just noticing that although the command ships themselves don't require BC5, learning the skill does. How will that play out? |
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Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
97
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Posted - 2012.03.25 15:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Recknin wrote:So once this change is implemented, will the Command Ships skill itself remain generic? Or will it also be split into 4? Just noticing that although the command ships themselves don't require BC5, learning the skill does. How will that play out?
I'm assuming they'll remain the same as all the t2 skills, such as Assault Ships and Heavy Assault ships as a 1 covers all 4 races. For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
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Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.03.25 16:53:00 -
[42] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:Recknin wrote:So once this change is implemented, will the Command Ships skill itself remain generic? Or will it also be split into 4? Just noticing that although the command ships themselves don't require BC5, learning the skill does. How will that play out? I'm assuming they'll remain the same as all the t2 skills, such as Assault Ships and Heavy Assault ships as a 1 covers all 4 races.
yep i think so too... |
Recknin
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 21:52:00 -
[43] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote: I'm assuming they'll remain the same as all the t2 skills, such as Assault Ships and Heavy Assault ships as a 1 covers all 4 races.
Ah, I knew I was forgetting something. |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 23:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
i am also curious if there are new ships planned? the whole racial BC/destroyer ship class can also be to make some pirate/faction destroyers and BCs any news on that? |
Savage Creampuff
Ion Corp. Citex Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.03.26 13:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
i have been told from unreliable sources that you will need the racial frig and cruiser skills, in addition to the battlecruiser skill, to have the new skills assigned. ie: if you can fly it, you will still be able to fly it.
since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs? |
OfBalance
Caldari State
242
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 17:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
Savage Creampuff wrote:since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs?
You wouldn't be able to "fly it before," so you wouldn't get the racial bc skills.
HTH |
Kush Monster
Big Tobacco
29
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Posted - 2012.03.26 21:15:00 -
[47] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:Firstly I know everything is subject to change. I just wanted to see what other people thought about this specific piece of the change. CCP Ytterbium wrote: Q: can we opt out for skills we don't want during the reimbursement process? A: well, again, it depends on how it is done. We may just bluntly give all four variants at V if you had battlecruiser V for example, or maybe require that you also add the relevant Cruiser skill trained at level 3 to be eligible. On the latter case, just don't train the cruiser 3 skill, and you should not receive the new racial battlecruiser at 5. Not sure why one would do that however, it's like skipping free candy or cake while visiting your grandma.
Example: If we go for option 1: you will get Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar Battlecruiser skills at 5 if you previously had the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5. If we go for option 2: you will get Amarr Battlecruiser skill at 5 only if you previously fulfilled all conditions to fly Amarr Battlecruisers, which means having the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5, PLUS the Amarr Cruiser at 3. To remind it again, there are other options to consider, but no matter which one which choose, you won't lose anything out of the skill reimbursement plan.
I know a lot of people (myself included) are purists or are pretty darn proud of their skill sheets. One might say a tad OCD. So if CCP did go with option 1 instead of option 2, Would it be a deal breaker? Personally I made this character for (lol)RP reasons to suddenly have Amarr BC4 Minmatar BC4 floating there with absolutely no support skills and no intention of every being trained would absolutely crush me, given how much time I've put into the character, not just playing but backstory and all that stuff. So thoughts ladies and gentlemen.
a tad OCD you say?
I can think of 3 reasons why this is going to be good: 1. you wont get the skill unless you train for it. 3. free sp!
How to make mining enjoyable: An Autocannon, Faction Ammo, Your Mouth
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Savage Creampuff
Ion Corp. Citex Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.03.27 10:18:00 -
[48] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:Savage Creampuff wrote:since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs? You wouldn't be able to "fly it before," so you wouldn't get the racial bc skills. HTH so your saying the sp would just be reimbursed since there wouldn't be a generic bc skill anymore? |
Ahaz Darkfall
Division One Trade and Aquisition
0
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Posted - 2012.03.27 16:29:00 -
[49] - Quote
Savage Creampuff wrote:OfBalance wrote:Savage Creampuff wrote:since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs? You wouldn't be able to "fly it before," so you wouldn't get the racial bc skills. HTH so your saying the sp would just be reimbursed since there wouldn't be a generic bc skill anymore?
from what I have read there is no reimbursement planed.
Why would anyone one train BC to 5 with no racial cruiser skills?
The racial skills are required to fly the BC's of each race, just not prerequisite of the BC skill.
If you have BC trained to 5 but only have the racial skills trained to fly one race's BC then you will get that racial BC skill at 5. You will still be able to fly that one BC. If you want any other racial BC skill you will need to train frigate 4 plus cruiser 3 for that race. Then you would also get that race's BC skill at 5.
As far as I am concerned the time it takes to train racial frigate 4 and cruiser 5 (less than a week per race) to get the racial BC skill for free to what ever level you now have BC trained to is a significant amount of free SP for very little effort. If you do not want all the races BC skills than do not train the prerequisites. For anyone even remotely interested in cross training this is a great deal. for those who do not want the skills you still lose nothing, but they are not going to just credit everyone with the skill points needed to train all 4 races to BC 5 and let you decide where to spend the points.
I am working on the prerequisites for all races on all my characters even the non combat characters and will ensure all my combat characters have BC to 5 to maximize the benefit I will get from the change. Anyone who chooses not to will be choosing to not receive those free skill points. Your loss for your choice. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
59
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Posted - 2012.03.28 19:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
I have a question.
Command ships currently requires:
1. Racial Cruiser V ... 2. Command ships I 2.1 Battle Cruisers V ... 3. Heavy Assault Ships IV ...
With BC becomming a racial skill something must change. It seems likely that: a. the requirement of BC V for the Command ships skill will be dropped b. Racial BC V will be a new requirement
Now the question is whether they will simply add the racial BC V as a 4th requirement or let racial BC V replace racial Cr V as a requirement, which would mean that in the future you will only need racial Cruiser IV (the prerequisite for racial BC) rather than V to train for a specific command ship. Any opinions on this? |
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Lost Greybeard
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
3
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Posted - 2012.03.29 20:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
Savage Creampuff wrote:OfBalance wrote:Savage Creampuff wrote:since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs? You wouldn't be able to "fly it before," so you wouldn't get the racial bc skills. HTH so your saying the sp would just be reimbursed since there wouldn't be a generic bc skill anymore?
I believe you literally cannot inject the BC skill without a cruiser skill at 3 or 4, though it's been a while since I actually injected it. So by definition you can't possibly not have at least one BC racial prerequisite if you have the BC skill. |
Togrockz
Mythos Corp HELL4S
0
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Posted - 2012.03.31 14:28:00 -
[52] - Quote
any idea when this patch is gonna take place? |
Clementina
The Scope
61
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Posted - 2012.04.01 05:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
I do not know when the patch will take place, However I'm training Battlecruisers 5 to be able to take as much advantage as my character can. Wondering if I should learn Minmatar Cruisers 3 though.
Also looking at the skill tree, the only thing you need to train Battlecruisers is Spaceship command 4. Granted, people are smart, and so wouldn't train battlecruisers without a racial cruiser skill, but it is possible. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
2
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Posted - 2012.04.01 06:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
Clementina wrote:I do not know when the patch will take place, However I'm training Battlecruisers 5 to be able to take as much advantage as my character can. Wondering if I should learn Minmatar Cruisers 3 though.
Also looking at the skill tree, the only thing you need to train Battlecruisers is Spaceship command 4. Granted, people are smart, and so wouldn't train battlecruisers without a racial cruiser skill, but it is possible. CCP scheduled Inferno for May here.
Difficult to predict though, how much of the skill and ship redesign will be implemented in the first patch of the new expansion.
Right after the announcement, I rescheduled skill training for characters crosstraining, so everything will be done before may. |
Eofina
DEATH'S LEGION Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
5
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Posted - 2012.04.01 08:56:00 -
[55] - Quote
Torak Dakos wrote:why complain about giving free SP away, yes the number next to SP will grow but the pilot have exact same ability's as before -.-
i
This, and if anything more SP might mean more ISK for a higher Medical Clone.
Or did I just open another can of worms? |
Justa Altlol
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
28
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Posted - 2012.04.01 14:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
I hope they go with method #2. I'd rather not have skills I never plan to use cluttering up my skill window and making my clones more expensive. |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
24
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Posted - 2012.04.01 21:01:00 -
[57] - Quote
I think a character should only get new Racial Battlecruiser skill to 5 if they already have Racial Cruiser skill to 5. Otherwise lots of people will get free access to Command Ships they cannot currently fly. |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
24
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Posted - 2012.04.01 21:05:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:i am also curious if there are new ships planned? the whole racial BC/destroyer ship class can also be to make some pirate/faction destroyers and BCs any news on that?
You wouldn't catch me flying a Drake Navy Issue. |
Xlera
Universal Fleet Operations
1
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Posted - 2012.04.01 22:13:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:i am also curious if there are new ships planned? the whole racial BC/destroyer ship class can also be to make some pirate/faction destroyers and BCs any news on that?
they said they want to add more destroyers if they can find a role for them as having a skill which only enables 1 ship is going to be silly. |
Mohamad Transporte
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
16
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Posted - 2012.04.03 13:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
I think the whole revamp thing is really a good idea overall, especially with the idea , however, i wish that:
1. Like mentioned before: Factional BC would be nice (however, not overpower the tank of BS, or dps of a sleipner)
2. Give more tank and drone capacity for marauders & stealth warping ability to black ops .. (aka make it worth to train for) |
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