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Mel'Zinael
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Posted - 2008.07.27 07:21:00 -
[1]
Just made me enough cash to buy and fit up a nice Marauder so that leaves me with the dificult coice.. Which one should i use? Vargur should be good at it's own faction's missions.. well im fairly new to this!
I would apriciate if someone with some expriance with this would help me out, pro and cons towards the 2 ships would be nice to hear aswell.
Thanks!
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:29:00 -
[2]
If you have good missile skills, torp Golem outclasses the Vargur by a huge margin. Arty Vargur is simply fail due to lack of dps, and AC vargur suffers from serious damage reduction through falloff on anything beyond like 40km when rigged for falloff (even closer in when not rigged for falloff). And since a Golem can lob faction torps out to like 35km too... And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Zaknussem
Caldari The Ironbreakers
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:35:00 -
[3]
You can't fit large Artys on a Vargur due to the puny powergrid.
Golem wins. |
Mel'Zinael
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Posted - 2008.07.27 11:51:00 -
[4]
I see, how about a torp Rattlesanke? ive heard its pritty good aswell?
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.27 12:03:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mel'Zinael I see, how about a torp Rattlesanke? ive heard its pritty good aswell?
You have heard wrong. Especially if you want to salvage (And running for Minmatar you definitely want to) a Marauder is a whole world better. And even without that they would have the same dps, but the Rattle would have a weaker active tank and no target painter bonus. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Mel'Zinael
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Posted - 2008.07.27 12:04:00 -
[6]
Hehe, ok thanks for the answers!
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 13:02:00 -
[7]
We'll have to see what happens to the price of angel salvage after the proposed patch. They're nerfing the living hell out of polycarbs, and since those were the primary use of ATB's, salvage price may drop quickly. I don't know exactly what else uses those bars, other than the cargo expander rigs, but we'll have to see. Then again, the same goes for the value of the Minmatar LP shop. Faction MWD won't really mean shit when all MWD's do the same speed, haha. Guess you save a little cap.
Anyways, Vargur is a contender if you really like Matar ships, but you'll want to use autocannons and take advantage of its falloff (perhaps use at least 1 falloff rig as well). If you want efficiency, golem all the way.
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Boz Well We'll have to see what happens to the price of angel salvage after the proposed patch. They're nerfing the living hell out of polycarbs, and since those were the primary use of ATB's, salvage price may drop quickly.
I am not so sure that polys are the main market for ATB... There is a huge number of haulers and barges out there with cargo rigs and making those takes even more ATB than polys. Price will likely drop but not that much. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine. |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 16:25:00 -
[9]
Ah, ok. I won't claim to be a big industrial person, haha, but good to know.
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Meha Mott
Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency
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Posted - 2008.07.27 19:09:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Meha Mott on 27/07/2008 19:10:19
Originally by: Leandro Salazar If you have good missile skills, torp Golem outclasses the Vargur by a huge margin. quote]
I have 1 char who is able to fly a Vargur nearly perfect (only large auto spec 5 missing), and an other one, nearly perfect for a Golem (only torp spec 5 missing)
Both have a complete 5 % hardwire set, and near to identic fitteted ships included 2 x T2 range rigs.
Both run Minmatar missions.
In some missions the Vargur, in some missions the Golem is faster, but the time difference is very small.
Over all the Golem tends to be faster in a very small margine, but it is never ever a huge margine.
The real difference is the ammu consumption the Vargur needs between 100 up to 150 % more ammo.
Sorry for my bad english
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Iron Wraith
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Meha Mott Edited by: Meha Mott on 27/07/2008 19:10:19 I have 1 char who is able to fly a Vargur nearly perfect (only large auto spec 5 missing), and an other one, nearly perfect for a Golem (only torp spec 5 missing)
Both have a complete 5 % hardwire set, and near to identic fitteted ships included 2 x T2 range rigs.
Both run Minmatar missions.
In some missions the Vargur, in some missions the Golem is faster, but the time difference is very small.
Over all the Golem tends to be faster in a very small margine, but it is never ever a huge margine.
The real difference is the ammu consumption the Vargur needs between 100 up to 150 % more ammo.
Sorry for my bad english
just out of curiosity but what dps do both of your ships kick out? i've seen some numbers where the golumn can hit over 1000 dps and the vag is quite a way behind that. i have a blaster kronos my self but am interested in how the other close combat marauders stack up Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots: [2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage |
Vibora BR
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:33:00 -
[12]
Vargur is a bad joke, go to Golem.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.07.27 21:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Mel'Zinael I see, how about a torp Rattlesanke? ive heard its pritty good aswell?
You have heard wrong. Especially if you want to salvage (And running for Minmatar you definitely want to) a Marauder is a whole world better. And even without that they would have the same dps, but the Rattle would have a weaker active tank and no target painter bonus.
Rattlesnake is better passive-tanked than active. Does the same eft damage as Golem with torps without needing range rigs, but lacks the target painter bonus and tractoring/salvaging abilities of a marauder. Either the Golem or the Rattler would be better than a Varg.
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Meha Mott
Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency
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Posted - 2008.07.28 00:40:00 -
[14]
EFT Stats with my actual fittings + skills + imps + rigs
Golem with faction torps : 1108 dps/ T2 javeline : 814 dps/ T1 torps : 964 dps
Golem range T1 Torps : 45,9 Km (42 km realy)/ T2 : 68,9 (65 km realy)
Vargur with faction mun(emp):1070 - fusion:986/ T2 barage: 950/ T1 emp: 950 fusion 877
Vargur range T1 Mun : 4,5 opti 44 km fall off/ T2 mun 6 opti + 67 Km fall off
Both ships have some pros and cons, Vargur can kill frigs with a lot of mun at 90 Km but fighting in deep fall off is a pain,
Golem has its downs in ship speed , travel time of torps, explo radius , overkill (to much micro managemanet with missiles)
A friend of mine has a Kronos with officer rails, and that ship is realy a beast and always makes me jealous
I think the Kronos is the best Marauder for fast and ranged killig, that is where the 3 other Marauder lack a bit.
Sorry for my bad english
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.07.28 01:08:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zaknussem You can't fit large Artys on a Vargur due to the puny powergrid.
Golem wins.
Not true. My Vargur fits 4x 1200mm Scouts and a good shield tank comfortably. ------------
Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Amandin Adouin
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Posted - 2008.07.28 14:00:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 28/07/2008 14:09:47
Originally by: FT Diomedes
Originally by: Zaknussem You can't fit large Artys on a Vargur due to the puny powergrid.
Golem wins.
Not true. My Vargur fits 4x 1200mm Scouts and a good shield tank comfortably.
I'm assuming that you run level 4 missions with the Vargur... can I ask if you've ever run level 4s with a Raven, Domi, Golem or any of the Amarr ships? The reason I ask is, everyone keeps saying that the Matari ships run the missions so much slower, and that only those who only fly Matari think that their ships are actually okay. I'm personally training up Matari and I'd prefer not to switch races (although this last nerf has me seriously considering training Amarr). The Vargur just seems like such a fun ship...
Anyway, how do you find the Vargur actually compares to other ships? I know it's not as efficient, but is it cripplingly so? Or just maddeningly so? No, seriously.
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Slayton Ford
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2008.07.28 17:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Amandin Adouin Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 28/07/2008 14:09:47
Originally by: FT Diomedes
Originally by: Zaknussem You can't fit large Artys on a Vargur due to the puny powergrid.
Golem wins.
Not true. My Vargur fits 4x 1200mm Scouts and a good shield tank comfortably.
I'm assuming that you run level 4 missions with the Vargur... can I ask if you've ever run level 4s with a Raven, Domi, Golem or any of the Amarr ships? The reason I ask is, everyone keeps saying that the Matari ships run the missions so much slower, and that only those who only fly Matari think that their ships are actually okay. I'm personally training up Matari and I'd prefer not to switch races (although this last nerf has me seriously considering training Amarr). The Vargur just seems like such a fun ship...
Anyway, how do you find the Vargur actually compares to other ships? I know it's not as efficient, but is it cripplingly so? Or just maddeningly so? No, seriously.
I've run missions in a CNR and normal Raven along with plexing in 0.0 w/ ravens and munnins. I would take a Vargur over a Raven (or golem) just due to the defender spam that nerfs the dps of missile boats. The only problem with fitting t2 1200 artys on it is having to use a RCU and faction PDS (or rig). --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer... |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Slayton Ford I've run missions in a CNR and normal Raven along with plexing in 0.0 w/ ravens and munnins. I would take a Vargur over a Raven (or golem) just due to the defender spam that nerfs the dps of missile boats. The only problem with fitting t2 1200 artys on it is having to use a RCU and faction PDS (or rig).
Prolly cruise Ravens... A Vargur very likely DOES outclass cruise Ravens, but that is not really very hard. They are popular because they are versatile and easy to use, not because they are good.
Torp boats and Laserboats still play one league higher than the Vargur though, and at least judging from my recent experiments with the Kronos, it would beat a Vargur too on any non blood/sansha/drone mission that has more than a handful of enemies at 40+ km. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.07.29 02:39:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Tamoko on 29/07/2008 02:42:34 Edited by: Tamoko on 29/07/2008 02:40:01
Originally by: Amandin Adouin Anyway, how do you find the Vargur actually compares to other ships? I know it's not as efficient, but is it cripplingly so? Or just maddeningly so? No, seriously.
Actually, the Vargur isn't as bad as some people make it sound... It's just very situational. Here's a graph that illustrates it's DPS reduction over falloff. It is charted with 4x 800mm IIs, 3 Gyro IIs, and 1 Ambit Extension (Falloff Rig)
Chart.
If you look at that, you'll see it's very competitive in the short-range market, such as missions like Angel Extravaganza, where all but two ships orbit very close (My Abaddon struggles due to tracking, the vargar would rip through them like nothing.)
edit: I forgot to say, there's also 5 Hammerhead IIs in that chart, with 60km range, hence the very rapid DPS hit at 60. edit: For the sake of comparison, the Golem does about 775 DPS up to 70KM with Javelins (rigged for range) and 890 DPS at 40KM with regular torpedoes and range rigs.
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Julie Thorne
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Posted - 2008.07.29 07:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Torp boats and Laserboats still play one league higher than the Vargur though, and at least judging from my recent experiments with the Kronos, it would beat a Vargur too on any non blood/sansha/drone mission that has more than a handful of enemies at 40+ km.
Yeah, that's the point. You don't need range when running missions for Minmatar agents in Minmatar space (and to be honest I wouldn't care if I wasn't able hit anything at 40km+ because I have a 40km tractor beam). Getting into range is not a problem (most of the time you start there and you're fast), Barrage is essential in 3 missions only and I rarely shoot anything at 30+km except to get aggro... Only Serpentis missions are tricky but I only get 3 of them (The Assault, The Score, Massive Attack) and with a little foresight they're quite good (though I always decline MA). I don't fight NPCs without bounty so I can't tell you how bad or good drone or Amarr missions are.
You claimed here that a good marauder pilot/you makes/make 30m/hour (I hope that you're talking about bounties only because if not I have to disagree). I really hate to write about how much I earn but just to show the efficiency of the Vargur I'll post some old numbers. When I started using mine I did missions for 4 hours in high sec and after that checked the bounties, cash and lp rewards, salvage and loot: and my avarage was 31m cash + 20.5m salvage&loot + 15k lp /hour. These numbers are with marauders lv1, I knew nothing about how AC boats worked in missions (I made some major mistakes - had to warp out of Mordus Headhunters ) and I have a better setup now. And shooting/webbing/tractoring/looting/salvaging/controlling drones/moving/using AB/shield boosting/locking new targets was a bit overwhelming at first.
Because we already read whatÆs the problem with the Vargur (range and canÆt fit arties û lol I hope you can feel the sarcasm), let me add my thoughts on the Golem:
Most people forget that torp ships have inherent weaknesses - you have to know exactly how many torps you need to take down an NPC (I'm not talking about salvos here!) and have to targetpaint a lot (even battleships with faction/t1 torps - and let's not talk about cruisers and hacs) otherwise you waste your nice dps. Oh don't forget that torp golems have a ROF of 7-8s and targetpainters have 10s cycles so you waste part of your dps anyway. Then thereÆre lots of other issues as well (avarage damage lost on the last shot, reloading, side effects of javelin torps, missile travel time and targetpainting). I donÆt want to get into details though they have a big impact on your DPS (more than 10%).
Of course the Vargur has some weaknesses as well (tracking! and range issues in some missions, ammo consumption could be better though it's far from being a problem) but killing cruisers and frigs is much easier than in a torp Golem, and hail is perfect vs closely orbiting webbed battleships (for some odd reason I meet a lot of those). And one more thing: you'll be always close to the wrecks - salvaging&looting in missions was never so easy
Claiming that the Vargur is worse than the other marauders without flying it is very-very bold. And I hate it because players reading threads like this (EFT warriors writing about ships they don't fly - I'm not talking about you, Leandro) won't give the Vargur the chance it deserves. I have to admit that using ACs with extreme falloff in missions sounds crazy but they work very well. Some missions became extremely easy (like Vengeance) and none of the missions became more difficult. Of course the Vargur is not for everyone and using it vs Guristas or Blood raiders is not a good idea (but you donÆt have to so who cares?).
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Julie Thorne
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Posted - 2008.07.29 07:52:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Julie Thorne on 29/07/2008 07:52:40 If someone is interested but doesn't believe me I can give her one advice only: log on the test server and try it there though Sisi is messed up right now (94m/s Raven lol). To be honest I read so many bad things about this ship even though I felt that most people didn't see the whole picture I had to try it myself. I chose The Blockade and it was love at first try Needless to say I started training AWU5 on TQ the minute I finished the mission.
To answer the OPÆs question: the Vargur is worth the training and money itÆs extreme fun to fly and works very well but IÆll understand if you choose the äsafeö (and boring )solution and count torps instead (Sorry for being so long.)
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Wil Smithx
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Posted - 2008.07.29 10:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Mel'Zinael I see, how about a torp Rattlesanke? ive heard its pritty good aswell?
You have heard wrong. Especially if you want to salvage (And running for Minmatar you definitely want to) a Marauder is a whole world better. And even without that they would have the same dps, but the Rattle would have a weaker active tank and no target painter bonus.
Rattlesnake is better passive-tanked than active. Does the same eft damage as Golem with torps without needing range rigs, but lacks the target painter bonus and tractoring/salvaging abilities of a marauder. Either the Golem or the Rattler would be better than a Varg.
Erm the rattlesnake DOES require range rigs else is will be shooting the same range as the golem.
The point of the golem is that it has a strong enough active tank to be able to fit more damage mods and rigs to increase its range, while being able to salvage missions as it goes. A torp cnr would do a lot more damage than a golem at a longer range but it wouldnt be able to salvage and also it wouldnt be able to tank nearly as much without some expencive fittings.
Golem is obviously the best choice for minmatar missions...
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:58:00 -
[23]
Vargur is good if you fit Faction 1200's. 4 x Republic 1200's and a shield tank and you are doing fantastic.
You can run a Permatank with high DPS as well on vargur. But avoid 1400's due to grid.
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Meha Mott
Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency
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Posted - 2008.07.29 14:52:00 -
[24]
Projectile ambit extension II are real cheap to produce.
If you rigg two of them in the Vargur you will recive a massive damage add.
The fall off increases dramaticaly. Its the best damage boost you can get for your isk.
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:24:00 -
[25]
If you do vargur, think speed.
700 dps at 700m/s with a standard t2 ab is more than doable. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.30 04:21:00 -
[26]
I am a natural Vargur hater so what i ll say may seem surprising.
For Minmatar agents i would still prefer Vargur over the Golem maybe because i hate the looks of the Golem, or maybe because i hate the torps/cruisers thing.
But if i could chose a marauder to fly against angels it would probably be Kronos.
Anyway with this character i am doing missions for amarr agents so i am going for Paladin with this. My alt is Caldari and will go the Kronos way. I have problem with Gurista missions lasers are simply bad against them no matter how big damage they have on paper so i do gurista missions with the Maelstorm. So perhaps after the Paladin i ll go for Vargur at the distand future with this character.
Anyway for me between Vargur Golem Golem wins on paper but somehow Vargur wins in my heart. |
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