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PR Hough
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:36:00 -
[31]
Level 4 high sec whiners
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Furb Killer
Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:54:00 -
[32]
Drones will work fine on close range, and a sniper battleship can still hit orbitting npc battleships.
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:57:00 -
[33]
Warp out the moment your mission gets invaded? That's what most mission runners do.
Adapted. Didn't die. |
Segge Bolled
Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots
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Posted - 2008.07.28 09:32:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Segge Bolled on 28/07/2008 09:32:12
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 09:33:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Joss Sparq on 28/07/2008 09:33:30
Originally by: Ekrid
Originally by: Joss Sparq Edited by: Joss Sparq on 28/07/2008 08:33:17
Originally by: MenanceWhite It's like the same thing as bumping away haulers from gates back when there was'nt any "warp to zero".
I would of thought it would be considered much the same as this, and forbidden as harassment. You should try a petition.
TBH, all gameplay which has you preying on another person for fun or money (in fact this is probably always the case, both of these together), is griefing technically. its just that some griefing is condoned as part of the game, while others are unexepected consequences of game mechanics that go beyond the scope of CCPs game ideal, and therefor are considered harrassment beyond game quality.
Exactly - all I'm saying is that it sounds to me like this falls into the second category and it'd be more productive to petition it and see what happens.
Not that I have anything against the practice of salvage "theft" (Indeed I get annoyed at it being called "theft" in the first place) and not that I particularly care for missions or what happens inside them, since I'm planning on selling my only mission runner to make room for another (with a more expendable piloting style) PvP character.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.28 09:42:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ekrid so you havent played Eve then? cause the tutorials describes this tactic of wearing down the npc blobs in missions by this exact method.
So? The point he's trying to make is that, unless you're running a rather miserable setup, there's never any need to warp out. You can wear down the NPCs by just staying put and keep shooting.
The tutorial assumes you're in a newbie frig, with little of no fittings beyond what's given to you. As soon as you advance beyond that level, you should know enough not to need warpouts to finish a mission. They simply don't present enough of a threat to require warp-outs.
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Karanth
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:06:00 -
[37]
Try mining missions. No way a decent BS should fail at tanking those, and who the hell is gonna steal all your Pithix?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:07:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum That's a lame tactic, but a valid one. You accept the risk of this sort of thing happening by running a mission. You can counter it by equipping a better tank or moving to a different mission agent.
Not exact, bumping someone, repetitively, in a ship that can't be aggressed back, to get him killed by NPC or by people at war with him, can be petitioned. The problem is proving that it was intentional and demonstrate it as bumping is not logged in a easy accessible way.
As a neutral player bumping you to death by NPC is clearly something intention, he is using is neutral immunity doing it in high sec, so he is killing you without possibility to retaliate, it is an exploit, not a valid tactic.
The best option, if someone is doing that, is to open a harassment petition and get a GM to look the situation immediatly.
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Arana Tellen
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.28 10:11:00 -
[39]
TBH I am sure that neutrals coming into missions has happened before and this sort of tactic has been classed as an exploit. ---------------------------------
Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale *moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:00:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tae'Lin Hynd
Originally by: Andrue
Originally by: Tae'Lin Hynd So salvage thieves are using a new tactic. They bump you to the point you cannot stay out of NPC opt, and so you cannot stay in your optimal, and so you CANNOT warp out of a mission if there is a dire need to.
If you need to warp out of a mission you are doing it wrong. A 'dire need' to wearp out means you really shouldn't be running that level in the first place.
Warping out of a mission is not a strategy - it's an admission of failure.
so if your kid ever fell and smashed his head?
Are you now saying that's what happened? From the game's POV that's still a failure. Of course I'd hope it was a rare occurence in which case you can write off the in-game loss as proof that no-one is perfect and congratulate yourself on putting your kid before your recreation.
Quote: so if the lag is so unbearable you need a reboot?
Then you should have prepared for that eventuality by:
* Not running missions in lag infested mission hubs. * Keeping your computer up to spec (I've never had the problem you describe). * Not starting the mission if there is evidence of technical issues (ie;reboot first). * Making sure you can get out at all times even if that means aborting the mission when another player turns up.
Quote: so if you are set to run a mission with a certain fit, that has never failed before, but due to an unavoidable tactic? (but this one you can't warp out on)
That depends what 'never failed before' means. You implied that you knew it wasn't the best fit but couldn't be bothered to change it. That's carelessness.
Quote: i still am not seeing how this does not fall into exploit territory.
Ah well that's harder to call. It depends whether or not bumping is an exploit. I don't think it is in which case they did nothing wrong. No-one ever said mission runners should be safe (the devs have explicitly stated that we should all be at risk). As long as the tactic used to keep you in place is not itself invalid then game-on.
Best thing you can do is adapt my modifying your fit and the way you run missions. I also suspect you running one of the Motsu/Saila agents in which case you should get the flock out and find a quieter agent where pirates and lag are unlikely to bother you. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:05:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ekrid
Originally by: Andrue
Originally by: Tae'Lin Hynd So salvage thieves are using a new tactic. They bump you to the point you cannot stay out of NPC opt, and so you cannot stay in your optimal, and so you CANNOT warp out of a mission if there is a dire need to.
If you need to warp out of a mission you are doing it wrong. A 'dire need' to wearp out means you really shouldn't be running that level in the first place.
Warping out of a mission is not a strategy - it's an admission of failure.
so you havent played Eve then? cause the tutorials describes this tactic of wearing down the npc blobs in missions by this exact method.
So what? It's still a desperation trick that's only needed by ill-equipped or under-skilled pilots.
Okay so I'm being a bit crude calling it a failure but the point is that if you're that close to losing your ship in the first place you are that much more at risk. I have never flown a mission with the intention or even expectation of having to warp out. I still had to do it a few times but I took that as a sign of failure and that I wasn't properly ready.
You can still run missions like that if you want but IMO it removes your write to whine on the forums if you lose your ship.
In this case it depends on exactly what happened. So far it seems like the OP was careless in their fittings and didn't get out as soon as someone else appeared. People have a natural tendency to push their luck and in Eve that's a recipe for disaster. It's all very well risking your ship in PvP but in PvE it's stupid. Go in properly prepared and ready to slaughter the opposition. Overkill and overtank. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:11:00 -
[42]
I was under the impression that bumping someone where you have no reasonable chance of attacking and killing them was already an exploit?
Having said that, if by bumping them they get killed by NPC's, then there is profit involved.
What a dilemma.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.28 11:53:00 -
[43]
Its harassment and banable. petition it.
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Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Gabbot
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tae'Lin Hynd
Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar Edited by: Ragnar Darkstar on 28/07/2008 06:25:34 Would a Logoffski work?
No because your ship will never align with several others bouncing off its hull
Actually it will, as after 30 seconds (provided you have no aggro) you just disappear
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:34:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tae'Lin Hynd So salvage thieves are using a new tactic. They bump you to the point you cannot stay out of NPC opt, and so you cannot stay in your optimal, and so you CANNOT warp out of a mission if there is a dire need to.
Now, there is no way to stop this from happening. All you can do is sit there and watch multiple neutral ships who will not get flagged until they loot your wreck, which they caused by bumping you in a mission causing your death.
If there is anyway to avoid this from happening, please explain. and not doing missions really isn't an option at this point...HA
The moral of this is, whining for rule changes will never protect you from inventive players who want your stuffs. I applaud the ingenious rascals that conceived of this tactic.
EvE. Is. Not. Single. Player.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
OneSock
Crown Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:37:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Andrue If you need to warp out of a mission you are doing it wrong. A 'dire need' to wearp out means you really shouldn't be running that level in the first place.
Warping out of a mission is not a strategy - it's an admission of failure.
Utter nonsense.
Many missioning setups go tank light and DPS heavy. This tactic allows faster mission completion at the expense of a strong tank. Obvious problem being if you can't bring the DPS to the targets for any reason you can't reduce the incoming DPS fast enough before your tank dies.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 12:51:00 -
[47]
Partial solution:
If anyone warps into a mission that is not ganged with the mission runner, all NPCs reset aggro.
Yes, this could be done deliberately to spread damage from an overly engaged ship, but at least it would force folks inviding a mission with live rats to have to deal with some of those rats now and then.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Mr Pentex
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:05:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot Partial solution:
If anyone warps into a mission that is not ganged with the mission runner, all NPCs reset aggro.
Yes, this could be done deliberately to spread damage from an overly engaged ship, but at least it would force folks inviding a mission with live rats to have to deal with some of those rats now and then.
Agree
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TheG2
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:18:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot Partial solution:
If anyone warps into a mission that is not ganged with the mission runner, all NPCs reset aggro.
Yes, this could be done deliberately to spread damage from an overly engaged ship, but at least it would force folks inviding a mission with live rats to have to deal with some of those rats now and then.
I really have nothing against Salvager Ninjas, but this sounds like a really good idea. Then again...that means my drones could be popped whenever someone new warps in...
On second thought, terrible idea.
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Tae'Lin Hynd
Simply Planned
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:30:00 -
[50]
This is basically what was said
Since the game engine allows bumping it is valid
So by that logic pos bowling never should have been an exploit bumping freightors not griefing
By that logic no exploit should be bannable or anything else
Even more confused am I by a response like this
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.28 13:48:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tae'Lin Hynd Even more confused am I by a response like this
Dont be confused... His parents just make him wear a bycicle helmet to highschool.
Petition, any GM who read the issue and doesnt can a response will see its an exploit just like POS bowling and freighter bumping...
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Aarin Wrath
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Posted - 2008.07.28 14:02:00 -
[52]
OP: Ignore the trolls.
You could have: 1. logofski'd (quit the game), and hope that your tank lasts 30 seconds or so and then you would simply disappear. The rats would re-aggro and kill the neutrals.
2. Immediately petitioned it under harassment. I am pretty certain this would be classified as an exploit. (POS bowling is an exploit ... so I assume this would be as well)
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:07:00 -
[53]
POS bowling is an exploit since you bypass a the shield. If you're sitting out in open space, there is nothing to bypass.
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Hieronimus Rex
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:11:00 -
[54]
Fit a tank that will run forever taking whatever aggros you.
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Aarin Wrath
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:19:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Tippia POS bowling is an exploit since you bypass a the shield. If you're sitting out in open space, there is nothing to bypass.
I disagree. I would say that the griefers are bypassing the aggro mechanics by harassing a player and evading retribution by remaining neutral in high security space.
Exploit semantics aside, what they are doing is harrasment imho.
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MilowFV
Echo Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:52:00 -
[56]
well exploit or not I think it using game mechanic in an unintended way. I am guessing a GM will do nothing for the most part as it to much work to figure out if it happen like you said.
In general I don't much like bumping anyway and would like to see that game mechanic changed, but not like I am going to lose any sleep over them not changing it.
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Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:57:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Riho imo this should not be a valid tactic.
the mission runner can not defend himself from this.
if the loot wrecks.. fine.. shoot them.. but bumping... you can do anything but die pretty much... or hope you can warp.
This should be branded as an exploit for that reason. Suicide ganking is allowed because CONCORD will destroy the attacker's ship, thus there is consequence and risk.
Bumping someone into death like that where it's in highsec and not a war/valid pvp situation (ie, the person attacked can't fight back nor can they run away) is clear misuse of game mechanics in an unintended way, and therefore an exploit in every sense of the word, CCP should reimburse and should warn/ban the offenders.
Forcing someone into a situation where they can't defend themselves where you, as an attacker suffers zero risk of any kind is just plain lame, and whomever did this deserves a nice "naming and shaming".
BTW, this could be a tie in to the FW exploit where neutrals tank the FW npc's, and could conceivably be used by neutrals to TRAP people into being destroyed by FW npc's.
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Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 15:59:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot Partial solution:
If anyone warps into a mission that is not ganged with the mission runner, all NPCs reset aggro.
Yes, this could be done deliberately to spread damage from an overly engaged ship, but at least it would force folks inviding a mission with live rats to have to deal with some of those rats now and then.
Sounds good. At least the perps would have faced some risks.
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:08:00 -
[59]
simple solution for this would be anyone that warps in to a deadspace gets flagged red to the mission owner, then its up to him to decide to fight or not.
i am all for griefing - but there has to be risk - otherwise its not in the spirit of eve.
/theo. Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.07.28 16:14:00 -
[60]
by the way, i assume they are n00b corp griefers?
if not drop me the corp name.
;)
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
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