|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 12:11:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Euriti
The great feature of nanof**s is that they are so transparent in their need to save the pimp-speed-ships.
Id not say its a need but certainly most pvpers in EVE do not want to see NANO be nerfed to hell as the vote clearly showed.
Originally by: Euriti Let me give you a hint: skill isn't reflected by the price tag of your ship or implants.
True but then the same ships and fittings have always been available to every player in EVE bud, but as with all games some ppl are just better and more dedicated to improving their skills than others.
This nerf if it goes through will destroy a highly entertaining and skilled form of pvp and while im sure a few of the less skilled and bitter victims of NANO will think and believe that their problems are solved the truth is that the problem is not NANO the problem is them.
|
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 22:04:00 -
[2]
Well ive been on the test server and tbh this patch is gonna really screw up the gang combat in eve.
Im sure there will be a lot of skilless blobbers jumping for joy if the nerf goes through as even small scale combat is seriously effected while medium sized is gonna suck as alpha strike will rule instead of the needing to tackle and slow ship to kill them as we do now.
While i think removing the 15-30kms fits is not a problem the nerf is slowing hacs and cruiser sized ships to a point of uselessness and not only that but totally ruining the most skilled form of pvp eve has ever seen, just because a limited number of ppl do not have the skill or the willingness to gain the skills to combat it is a very sad state of affairs.
|
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.09.01 10:01:00 -
[3]
Edited by: lebrata on 01/09/2008 10:01:31 re: Meina Lamia.
I have been reading through some of the posts and i think that what your talking about is coming from both sides of the argument. Your wishes seem to stem from examples of star trek and war games and while you may think that is interesting you seem to forget that each individual ship is flown by a paying person instead of a npc or lead/plastic modal to push around.
Now as somebody who pays a monthly fee i do not want to be a pawn in somebodies little fleet and getting insta popped if i get called primary in the first 3 seconds of a fight. And there is nothing in the game that prevents that at the moment apart from speed.
Without speed all a gang will need is numbers and alpha/dps to kill ships, with speed tackle is required to kill a ship and within than need complex tactics are developed and required to be successful. I am actually surprised that somebody who says they love tactics and strategies along with other skilled aspects would want nano nerfed instead of having webs extended, or BS range and str webs added instead among all the other ideas that have been put forwards to counter speed instead of nerfing it.. |
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 07:51:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Meina Lamia
Ok, I understand what you are saying but there is another side to this coin.
My question would be, what are you flying and how many ships does it take to Insta Pop you, should you be hit. 1, 2, 5, 10, Large Gang, Fleet? How many do you think it should take to Insta Pop you?.
Its all relative, BC kick out more dmg than frigs so if your in a ceptor them it takes very few BC to insta pop you. While a gang of BC vs a gang of BC would need more.
Originally by: Meina Lamia Where does that leave everyone else in the game if by that logic, since nobody wants to be Insta Poped and Nanos are the best way out of that situation, then everyone will need to fly Nanos to avoid that.
Originally by: Meina Lamia
Where does that leave the Noobies
Theirs plenty of ships that noobies can fly that can be fitted to go fast enough to avoid dmg unless tackled.
Originally by: Meina Lamia Where does that leave the rest of the ships in the game since to avoid being Insta Poped, everyone is flying Nanos.
Nano is a roaming gang pvp style sniping, pos killing, RR BS, Logistical and ewar will be unaffected and still be very necessary, but without speed why bring ewar when extra dmg will be preferable and more effective.
Originally by: Meina Lamia So where does that leave us?
Not far from where we are now but with the top end speeds reduced and more interesting counters in the game instead of less over all pvp and what there is more boring.
|
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 15:13:00 -
[5]
The main problem is that you and others are looking at cause instead of effect.
Im gonna put my lottery tickets in on friday and if by mistake i get my normal numbers wrong and i win several million im not gonna give the money back just cos i made a mistake and they were not the numbers i intended.
Its the same with nano just because they did not intend to cause it it does not mean the result/effect was not an amazing, fun, highly skilled and game improving form of pvp.
That is exactly how nano works it forces the team using it and the team against it to work together with varied skill sets to be able to get kills and win a fight, nano is just the catalyst that lets them survive long enough to do that.
Without it player piloting skill, combat experience or skill sets will be pointless as you will only last as long as it takes the hostile gang to lock and fire a single volley if you are in anything smaller than a BC against a small gang ora BS against a slightly larger gang (depending on ship types they have).
How is that more skilful?.
Its not easy on a individual level or on a team work level to defend tacklers while they try to gets webs and or nuet on a ship with ewar and logistics while the dmg dealers pour it on and i think that is why a lot of the antinano guys and gals want it removed for a more simple and easier form of pvp.
|
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 15:48:00 -
[6]
Edited by: lebrata on 02/09/2008 15:49:31
Originally by: Osher
Originally by: lebrata
Nano has not effected any other form of pvp apart from small gang roaming pvp and it has improved that immensely so why nerf it just because it was not intended?.
Going from the patch notes on this, that which was unintended was that the physics engine fails at these speeds. Such issues cannot go unaddressed.
How is it failing?, at what is it failing at?,.. and considering its been doing it for god knows how many years (as nano has been here for all that time) who cares.
weak excuse considering how long speed has been here.
|
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 17:21:00 -
[7]
Edited by: lebrata on 02/09/2008 17:24:14
Originally by: Osher
Lebrata Please Read: Link to Patch Notes
I already have read through them and naive and utterly lacking in understanding are the first things that spring to mind, in fact considering the sheer volume of posts pointing out how much those ideas would screw with the game and that ccp has already decided to revise them, im shocked you would mention them.
Originally by: Osher That said, to your argument: "...who cares?" 80 pages of players on this post alone, which given the number of times you've posted, seems to include you too.
Actually my argument was a little longer than "who cares" but:
Almost 80 pages of ppl saying that the suggested changes were a stupid way of nerfing speed is hardly a endorsement, even a lot of the ppl who want speed nerfing or reducing think the changes proposed were crazy and naive.
And id we wanna go on numbers the vote on the other forum was way over double against the nerf compared to those for it.
|
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 18:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Spurty Hmm to avoid touching speed ccp just needs to:
- make web an instance affect but reduced to 60% - make small 6km, medium 12km, large 24km range webs - keep the concept of warp disruptors knocking MWD off
then we don't need to bother with anything else.
/ signed.
Those changes would add and increase tactics in combat.
|
lebrata
|
Posted - 2008.09.09 11:40:00 -
[9]
Edited by: lebrata on 09/09/2008 11:45:02
Originally by: Isaac benyamin I'm feeling fairly optimistic that CCP will find a solution that keeps 99% of players effective and yet takes away the 'godlike' advantage certain players have that verges on an exploit.
So only "certain" players had access to the market and fittings?.
The game has always been balanced because everybody has always had access to the same stuff, if some rose to the top and others sank its because of in game skill and competence and nothing to do with the fittings or styles EVERYBODY had access to.
Originally by: Isaac benyamin I'm optimistic that it will put a new play balance in place where tackling and ewar will become a useful tag team in every fleet, rather than a nicety of large fleet warfare.
Are you really that naive, large fleet warfare has nothing to do with nano and never has. And ewar is a waste of a good dps ship in large fleet fights.
Originally by: Isaac benyamin Also nice to see the Caldari finally getting the chance to engage in sniper tactics with missiles again.
They always have been able to engage in sniper tactics, or have you not heard of burn eden???.
Your lack of understanding and knowledge is quite frightening tbh.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.03 08:54:00 -
[10]
Edited by: lebrata on 03/10/2008 09:15:06
Originally by: The Vixen
a) I use speed to dominate my opponents. Don't take my speed away, because I might actually have to figure out how to be dynamic in PVP and god knows I can't do that.
"Balance", "Broken", "Fixed" and now "Dynamic" lol just wondering when you lot of useless carebears are gonna start adding content to a discussion instead of using what you think are power words to avoid your ignorance on a subject.
Or if you would like to prove me wrong why do you not explain "dynamic" as it applies within the realm of gang pvp within eve.
How about this:
a) I use speed to allow great and skilled pvp to be available in eve. With speed tanking me ans my opponents gang need to tackle to kill and so need also to defend our tacklers. That means that we each use ewar and logistics in our gangs to protect and keep our tacklers alive while they do so. Don't take my speed away, because.. lock target, f1-f8 insta popping cruisers and smaller is not a skilled form of pvp even if mission running carebears think it is.............
"Dynamic" enough for ya??....care to give your scenario of "skilled" gang pvp if the speed nerf goes through or do you just prefer to spout wanna be power words like "balance" or "broken" and my new favorite "dynamic".
|
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 11:40:00 -
[11]
Edited by: lebrata on 09/10/2008 11:44:53
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
Okay name the last time you seen a Sacrilege tank? Name the last time you seen an Ishtar tank? Name the last time you seen a Zealot tank? Name the last time you seen Mach tank? ......I rest my case.
You can reply and say you have but everyone that knows that its all speed tank in the game right now. OH MAN WHAT TO DO!?!?! YOU MEAN I HAVE TO TANK A HAC?????
Conventionally tanking a cruiser hull (HAC) or even smaller is pointless as a BC out performs them in every way and with insurance costs a minute fraction of the price of the HAC.
Ship classes made pointless for gang pvp with this nerf are:-
Frigate class (all) - Cannot speed tank post nerf so will be melted by hostile gangs in the first volley.
Cruisers and Hacs - Out performed in every relevant way by BC and BS after the nerf.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 10:11:00 -
[12]
Edited by: lebrata on 12/10/2008 10:15:37
Originally by: Vitrael Let's cut through the spin and rage. These are the questions the devs need to answer before the players can give effective feedback: 1. What is wrong with the current balance of speed on tranquility (if anything)?
Generally nothing although the fully pimped out 30kms dream fits ppl bleat on about could be changed with no real effect to skilled pvp.
Originally by: Vitrael 2. What are the most effective methods to correct the existing problems?
I like the idea of the mwd killing scram and the range/str scripts for webs as it makes killing fast ships about player skill instead of just removing it with a blindly swung nerf bat.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 10:34:00 -
[13]
Edited by: lebrata on 12/10/2008 10:37:40
Originally by: Vitrael 3. What repercussions will these methods have on otherwise unrelated ship balancing issues?
1. The main problem is that as soon as you remove the ability to speed tank the smaller ships in eve like cruisers and below you remove their survivability and usefulness in gang combat. Why bring a frig or cruiser that can be insta popped with the first volley from even a small opposing gang when you can bring a battle cruiser or battleship that can hit harder and in some cases further and also tank much better. Simply put most cruiser hulls and all frig hulls were worthless in actual gang combat after the first patch, and nothing so far has been changed to make a difference in the updates.
2. Tackling will be considerably less important than it is now due to alpha and dps being able to hit without the need to tackle/slow a ship.
3. Sniping gangs will be boosted a lot due to ships being unable to approach them without taking damage along with the fact it will take considerably longer to get near them. Probing them out and warping to them will still only be effective at making them warp off and reposition as scanners and the overview still show incoming ships long before they "land" and are able to target or drop bubbles.
4. There is already a thread about how it effects battle ships and although i do not consider 1 v 1 statistics to be particularly relevant to 99% of fighting in eve it needs a mention.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 09:57:00 -
[14]
Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31
Originally by: DeadDuck
Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.
Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.
Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.
Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.
Originally by: DeadDuck And BTW I pass all my time blob'ing anything that enters cva space from a solo ship to a full gang and I'm all for this nerf cos i think it will make blobbing easier.
fixed.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 09:57:00 -
[15]
Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31
Originally by: DeadDuck
Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.
Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.
Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.
Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.
Originally by: DeadDuck And BTW I pass all my time blob'ing anything that enters cva space from a solo ship to a full gang and I'm all for this nerf cos i think it will make blobbing easier.
fixed.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 10:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: DeadDuck Edited by: DeadDuck on 13/10/2008 10:04:43
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31
Originally by: DeadDuck
Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.
Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.
Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.
Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.
Originally by: DeadDuck And BTW I pass all my time blob'ing anything that enters cva space from a solo ship to a full gang and I'm all for this nerf cos i think it will make blobbing easier.
fixed.
Well you are a "PVP Pro" you surelly will adapt to these changes. Even I "a carebear blober" have adpated to deal with speed fittings
If you had adapted you would not have been crying for a nerf you would be killing nano gangs that enter your space as easily as the rest of us.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 10:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DeadDuck Edited by: DeadDuck on 13/10/2008 10:04:43
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 13/10/2008 10:00:31
Originally by: DeadDuck
Well I think we all have to think of diferent tactics and aproaches, after this pacth. I remember to fly 4.2 K crusaders, having a blast, and still performing tackles all day long.
Gotta love this weak ass crap from supporters of this absurd nerf.
Pro nerf = 4 years ago blah blah dribble.
Anti nerf = As we speak on the test server the FACTS are ...ect ect.
Originally by: DeadDuck And BTW I pass all my time blob'ing anything that enters cva space from a solo ship to a full gang and I'm all for this nerf cos i think it will make blobbing easier.
fixed.
Well you are a "PVP Pro" you surelly will adapt to these changes. Even I "a carebear blober" have adpated to deal with speed fittings
If you had adapted you would not have been crying for a nerf you would be killing nano gangs that enter your space as easily as the rest of us.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dakess Athan I want nano nerfed so ppl will sit still and let me pop them like the rats im soooooooooo uber at killing.
Fixed.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:25:00 -
[19]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 09:52:45
Originally by: Dakess Athan I want nano nerfed so ppl will sit still and let me pop them like the rats im soooooooooo uber at killing.
I can tank like 3 or 4 1.5 mil BS rats in my PVE raven so all these other players must be cheating and breaking the game by using these weird PVP fits and not sitting still like the rats do and letting me pop them........
Fixed.
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:49:00 -
[20]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 14:51:28
Originally by: Random5154 Not sure I would read 84 pages of the same circular arguments, however one thing is very true: sit in average 0.0 space and start jotting down what ships you see. You will see a massive bias towards dictors, HACs, recons and Inty's unless you happen to see a POS gang moving through.
1. Look at a fleet defending the entry gates to a system from a invasion and you will see snipers.
2.Look at a fleet attacking a POS and you will see dreads and carriers. 3. Look at a camped gate in low sec and you will see RR and tackle.
4. And yes yes look at a roaming gang heading into deep hostile space that is covered with jump bridge networks and choke points and you will see fast ships and recons.
Originally by: Random5154 And while nanos have counters, nano pilots know the counters and largely avoid those engagements.
So to understand that rather flawed logic for this nerf:
1. Pilots will always want to get kills while taking few or no losses, this is a indisputable personality trait of 99% eve players.
2. Other pilots seem to think NANO is to blame for this attitude when it obviously is not its just ppls attitude.
3. The others complain to ccp for a nerf that will essentially turn combat into PVE like static blob fights where taking losses will be unavoidable for either side no matter the individual skill of the pilots and the team work skills they may have.
I seem to have found a flaw in the argument LOL... if ppl are avoiding losses now, by turning pvp into a static ratting style of pvp guaranteed to get ppl killed no matter how well they fly or work as a team they will engage other gangs even less!!!!!.
|
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:49:00 -
[21]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 15:00:32
Originally by: Random5154 Not sure I would read 84 pages of the same circular arguments, however one thing is very true: sit in average 0.0 space and start jotting down what ships you see. You will see a massive bias towards dictors, HACs, recons and Inty's unless you happen to see a POS gang moving through.
1. Look at a fleet defending the entry gates to a system from a invasion and you will see snipers.
2.Look at a fleet attacking a POS and you will see dreads and carriers. 3. Look at a camped gate in low sec and you will see RR and tackle.
4. And yes yes look at a roaming gang heading into deep hostile space that is covered with jump bridge networks and choke points and you will see fast ships and recons.
Its called using the right tool for the right job, now if CCP wants to boost other modules like the web script that gives range vs str differences then cool but to remove a valuable and highly needed form of fit is absurd.
Originally by: Random5154 And while nanos have counters, nano pilots know the counters and largely avoid those engagements.
So to understand that rather flawed logic for this nerf:
1. Pilots will always want to get kills while taking few or no losses, this is a indisputable personality trait of 99% eve players.
2. Other pilots seem to think NANO is to blame for this attitude when it obviously is not its just ppls attitude.
3. The others complain to ccp for a nerf that will essentially turn combat into PVE like static blob fights where taking losses will be unavoidable for either side no matter the individual skill of the pilots and the team work skills they may have.
I seem to have found a flaw in the argument LOL... if ppl are avoiding losses now, by turning pvp into a static ratting style of pvp guaranteed to get ppl killed no matter how well they fly or work as a team they will engage other gangs even less!!!!!.
|
|
|
|