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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.08.02 12:22:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Gneeznow I've had a 6 month old char in a drake tank my alt who was in a blaster dominix, with 5x wasp II's out, with 8 mil in gunnery and 5 mil in drones and Gallente battleship 5, large blaster spec 4
... and the drake just tanked until I ran out of cap charges and I had to bail
now tell me thats not overpowered, seriously
I don't think you can blame the Drake that you obviously suck in setting up your Domi and use Wasps to kill Caldari ships now, can you?
I'm sure the DPS of that Drake had you worried the entire time as well.
Anyways, everyone is missing the OPs point. The Drake is a Caldari ship, and thus, it's not supposed to be able to perform even a single task better than any other races ships in that class, no matter how you fit it.
It's obviously at the top with the Myrm when it comes to passive shield tanking BCs. Thus, it needs to be nerfed.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.08.02 12:23:00 -
[152]
Don't fly Caldari so that leaves out the bias. Yes they can tank Lucifer himself but their damage it's brilliant, they're slow, can't tackle, no ewar and no utility. If it can tackle/ewar it has a crappy tank thus it gets killed, if it's tanked you can simply get away form it.
The thing is if there's more of them, they still do reliable DPS while not being primaried. In a fleet I wouldn't even tank them since they never get primaried, might as well use those slots for ECM/damps/whatever.
They have a high tank bias, so what.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.02 12:27:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Tippia on 02/08/2008 12:34:48
Originally by: Pottsey But thats got nothing to do with it being a passive tank. The passive tank does the same damage as the active tank setups. There is no damage diffrance between a passive or active tank. Both can fit the same weapons and same damage mods.
The difference is that the passive tank setup needs to sacrifice tanking ability to fit those damage mods; the active tank does not. An active tank can use cap boosters and nos to keep its tank up, go nuts with the damage mods, and still have the same strength tank as before (albeit with less longevity).
Originally by: Gnulpie Do you really suggest that the only way to counter the passive tank of the drake is to bring more ships? That really cannot be the strategy which CCP wants, can it?
No. You can also bring a bigger ship that does more damage (preferrably of the EM kind). Again, the whole point of a BC is to survive cruiser-class weaponry with ease and BS-class damage with difficulty*, while dealing slightly more than cruiser-class damage itself.
* and before anyone chimes in with "it's not particularly difficult with a full tank", remember that, at that point, all it can do at that point is sit still and survive. Nothing more. It can't even run away.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.02 13:35:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/08/2008 13:40:23 "The difference is that the passive tank setup needs to sacrifice tanking ability to fit those damage mods; the active tank does not." Thats the advantage of passive tanks, they are modula.You can tweak the tank with ease by adding or loseing tanking slots. You can if you choose to fit 3 damage mods or 3 tanking slots. You can fit all slots for a super powerfull tank or you can fit less slots for a strong tank and strong damage. Just becuase its more modula based and you can use all the tanking slots doesnt mean you need to.
The way I see it is you can have upwards of a 1500+ passive tank or you can lower the tank and fit BCU's. That is an advatage to passive tanks not a weakness like some people make it out to be. The active tank doesnt have the option of tweaking the tank level as much as passive tanks.
Or put it another way. The passive tank can choose those 3 slots to boost damage or boost tank. While the active tank is pretty much limited to boosting damage only as there is no way to use 3 low slots to boost the tank level. Perhaps 1 with a DCU but not 3.
"Its rare to see passive tank ships. Buffer tanks or active tanks rule." That makes no sence, buffer tanks are passive tanks. You see passive tanks in PvP all the time.
"It's obviously at the top when it comes to passive tanking BCs. Thus, it needs to be nerfed." I dont think its top as the Gallante BC's come close while dealing a lot more DPS. Loseing a little tank but gaining a lot of DPS in my mind makes the Gallante passive tank ships much better overall. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.02 15:47:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Tippia on 02/08/2008 15:55:52
Originally by: Pottsey Or put it another way. The passive tank can choose those 3 slots to boost damage or boost tank. While the active tank is pretty much limited to boosting damage only as there is no way to use 3 low slots to boost the tank level. Perhaps 1 with a DCU but not 3.
It can fit more cap-generating mods to feed larger/better/more active shield modules. Quote: That makes no sence, buffer tanks are passive tanks. You see passive tanks in PvP all the time.
Yes, but the point there is to have tons of HP, not boosting your regen to counteract any damage thrown your way. On a buffer tank, any extra protection you get from the shield regen is a bonus, rather than the whole point of the tank.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.02 17:08:00 -
[156]
Op fails at PvP. Op whines because he got nerfed in his pwnmobile and can't adapt, so nerf someone else now, eh?
A heavy passive tanked Draked has sorry dps, is slow as hell, turns like a brick, can't hold anyone down, and is generally ignored in fleet fights until more dangerous foes are down. This is FACT. Course, if a T1 Cruiser jumps me, then I am the man. (asuming he's going less than 4k...)
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Daanika
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Posted - 2008.08.02 17:38:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Nikita Aratsu Edited by: Nikita Aratsu on 28/07/2008 18:00:01 the point is the drakes tank is twice as strong (probally more than that) than the rigged hurricane(and does more damage),and the tank cant be broken with neuts, as its 100% capless. passive tanking should be toned down.
or make shield power relays into a module that needs to be active to increase the shields regen, that would be the easiest fix.
Drake with full passive tank does more damage than 'cane? You're a fool, 'cane will wtfpwn you.
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Elurilmar
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Posted - 2008.08.02 17:48:00 -
[158]
In my opinion, if CCP got rid of all rigs, the game would be much more balanced. Rigs are the reason why all this "ludicrous speed" and "ludicrous tank" happens.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.02 18:01:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/08/2008 18:01:37 "It can fit more cap-generating mods to feed larger/better/more active shield modules." But cap-generating mods dont make you tank stronger, they make it so you can run a little longer without cap problems. A 500dps active tank with more cap-generating mods is still a 500dps tank only now it can run a few seconds longer. Passive tanks are more flexable and easyer to tweak with 3 spare low slots over active tanks. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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aak88
Caldari CORE Elements Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.02 18:24:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Ashaz passive shieldtanking is just fine... as long as i can get an armortank that has a HUGE HP-buffer, regenerates automaticaly without a repper even faster then a dual repper setup could possibly do and requires no cap what so ever. kthxbye
see how ridiculous that idea sounds? now considder that this is exactly what a passive shield does today.
*sigh* I fly a drake for missions and crosstrained gallente for pvp. Lets see a dual repping setup takes 2 low slots. you should also note that you still have other low slots for harenrs, plates, damage mods, cpr, and all your mids for boosters, ab and mwd, ewar, tackling, and more cap recharge. While on a drake fo it to be a good passive tank gives up ALL of its mids, lows, and rig slots to tank. If you can't kill a drake 1v1 without crippling it's tank then you fail.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.02 18:25:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 02/08/2008 18:01:37 "It can fit more cap-generating mods to feed larger/better/more active shield modules." But cap-generating mods dont make you tank stronger, they make it so you can run a little longer without cap problems. A 500dps active tank with more cap-generating mods is still a 500dps tank only now it can run a few seconds longer.
You missed the second part: larger/better/more shield modules. So yes, it does make the tank stronger. Quote: Passive tanks are more flexable and easyer to tweak with 3 spare low slots over active tanks.
The active tank can use the exact same low slots to tweak its tank.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.02 19:35:00 -
[162]
"You missed the second part: larger/better/more shield modules. So yes, it does make the tank stronger." No I didnt. You fit an Xlarge shield booster. Nearly all the time you have two options. Fit damage mods or fit more cap modules so you can tank longer. There is most of the time no way to use those 3 slots to boost the tankable DPS, only how long it can run for. Its rare that 3 low slots mean you can run 2 shield boosters.
"The active tank can use the exact same low slots to tweak its tank." In practise the active tank cannot tweak in the same way. Most of the time those slots are how long the tank lasts for, not makeing it stronger. You cannot just fit 3 low slot modules and make the active tank stronger.
With the active tank you pick one of two size's of shield booster based on your ship, Say large or Xlarge or on smaller ships perhaps mid or large then you work on cap in the low slots to power it. With the passive tank you can tweak HP regen per slot and you have lots of diffrent types of regen amounts to choose from per slot. Active tanking is far more limited in options. While passive tanking can be far more fine tweaked to get the HP regen you want.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.02 19:42:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Tippia on 02/08/2008 19:44:10
Originally by: Pottsey No I didnt. You fit an Xlarge shield booster. Nearly all the time you have two options. Fit damage mods or fit more cap modules so you can tank longer. There is most of the time no way to use those 3 slots to boost the tankable DPS, only how long it can run for. Its rare that 3 low slots mean you can run 2 shield boosters.
But it's possible, which means you can tweak your tank using the lowslots. You're also forgetting the usefulness of extra resists. Quote: You cannot just fit 3 low slot modules and make the active tank stronger.
You can use them to make a stronger tank work.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.02 20:47:00 -
[164]
Explain how then. I just dont see active tanking being as flexable in the way you can tweak HP regen to the level you need. I dont see how the low slots can give lots of options in HP regen as an active tank. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.08.02 20:58:00 -
[165]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 02/08/2008 21:00:09
Originally by: Pottsey Explain how then. I just dont see active tanking being as flexable in the way you can tweak HP regen to the level you need. I dont see how the low slots can give lots of options in HP regen as an active tank.
First of all, ignore all PvE fitouts. Go back to PvP.
Passive Tanks in PvP is just not viable since you lose out on too many important slots. You can use some LSE as a buffer, but thats all it is - A Buffer.
You can use a baitship, but a baitship is a poor performer. But thats the point - lower performance to give better ability at baiting.
Forget theorycraft eve and play te real game. In lvl4's, Passive tewaking matters to someone. PvE, Passive tweaking matters to someone.
In pvp PvP when you get 3-4 thousand DPS of all damage types on you and a bunch of EW all coming from a small gang, your passive tank tweak at 30% recharge is meaningless.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.02 21:05:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Pottsey Explain how then. I just dont see active tanking being as flexable in the way you can tweak HP regen to the level you need. I dont see how the low slots can give lots of options in HP regen as an active tank.
You're forgetting that you're dealing with modules that can be turned on and off. Running an active tank means you can adjust your HP regen (and HP loss) on the fly by toggling those modules. How you use your low slots determine how often you need to do this (if at all).
You get all the flexibility in one module (the booster) rather than from a (static) number of SPRs; the cap modules, in turn, determine how far you can push that booster — i.e. how strong your tank is. If you fit hardeners on top of this (and you probably do), you get another layer of flexibility that can be balanced against what you've fitted in the low slots, although the cap draw from those is rather insignificant compared to the booster.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.02 21:34:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Nikita Aratsu
Originally by: TheG2 1v1 they can last for quite a while, but 1 vs many they tend to die quickly.
Isnt that the same with most ships?
My main point is, there should be a way to counter passive tanks with neuts, make shield power relays an active module and remove the cap recharge bonus.
Wow, this is actually kind of fun! Most people think that becase a Drake's tank can run "forever" it doesn't require cap when in fact you'll generally find that a fully tanked Drake in fact relies on cap AND won't last forever (those 4 Shield Power Relays really butcher your cap recharge).
You average super tanked drake will only recharge about 150 - 200 HP/s - if well skilled and rigged. This is easily punched through by other BC's and it's a trifle for BS's. The key here is if you NEUT them their hardners turn off - and that 600+ DPS tank drops like a ton of bricks into the easily penetrated range.
What I find msot fun about this whole thing is all the things Caldari noobs do that people make fun of them for are now apparently unstoppably powerful. Tank Drakes apparently butcher everything. Falcons can't be killed by ANYTHING. Missiles are AWESOME in every scenario including long range. I know everyone likes blowing up caldari players but seriously - is a TANK DRAKE really a valid concern? It can't tackle and it deals low DPS (I recently broke 400 DPS on my OWN tank drake but I have almost maxed damage skills and I use a pair of BCS'). Yes I know all you minmatar players are getting shafted here - but your choice of gripes are really REALLY funny.
I'll be sure to take out my tanked drake once the nerf hits since It's clearly going to be unstoppable.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.02 21:37:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Pohbis Edited by: Pohbis on 02/08/2008 12:27:40
Originally by: Gneeznow I've had a 6 month old char in a drake tank my alt who was in a blaster dominix, with 5x wasp II's out, with 8 mil in gunnery and 5 mil in drones and Gallente battleship 5, large blaster spec 4
... and the drake just tanked until I ran out of cap charges and I had to bail
now tell me thats not overpowered, seriously
I don't think you can blame the Drake that you obviously suck in setting up your Domi and use Wasps to kill Caldari ships now, can you?
I'm sure the DPS of that Drake had you worried the entire time as well.
Anyways, everyone is missing the OPs point. The Drake is a Caldari ship, and thus, it's not supposed to be able to perform even a single task better than any other races ships in that class, no matter how you fit it.
It's obviously at the top when it comes to passive tanking BCs. Thus, it needs to be nerfed.
Here's a tip - use EM Drones - it's by far the weakest resist on a Drake. Also, neuts turn off those hardners and the drake's tank folds like a house of cards.
Just because we aren't shield boosting dosen't mean we aren't cap reliant. SPR's butcher your cap regen - I personally can only run the hardners for 18 minutes. A heavy neut drops that to less than 1 minute. And if you can't generate enough DPS to kill a drake after it's hardners fall in a battleship you need to seriously examine your strategies.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.02 22:07:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/08/2008 22:08:38 "In pvp PvP when you get 3-4 thousand DPS of all damage types on you and a bunch of EW all coming from a small gang, your passive tank tweak at 30% recharge is meaningless." Going by the amount of kills I have had when I used to PvP, I have to say your wrong. Its not meaningless and because in real PvP people dont know your setup untill its to late they dont take the perfect counter. Flying Gallante passive tank ships I found it very rare that people hit me with EM. I never had a need for EW as my gang mates did that. My job was to do damage with hybrids and tank and passive tanks are good for both of those. Now its clear passive tanks are not good for all types of PvP but they do work well sometimes.
As for the shield boosters comments from the other guy I dont agree. Your either running you tank at max or you cycleing the booster to lower the tank. There is no easy opton of boosting the tank with low slots. Those extra low slot cap modules are not boosting the tank over the old max. They let you run the tank longer. Say you use an Xlarge booster thats 120HP regen. Fitting more low slot cap regen modules only allows you to run for longer it does not boost you over 120HP regen. Yes you can tweak an active tank HP regen but no where near as much as you can a passive tank. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.02 22:17:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Pottsey Those extra low slot cap modules are not boosting the tank over the old max. They let you run the tank longer.
…which gives rise to this interesting concept called "sustained DPS", which is exactly what the low-slot modules help in boosting.
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Ast3r0iD
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.02 22:24:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Kvander Godalming Edited by: Kvander Godalming on 31/07/2008 22:19:15 Passive tank drakes cannot pvp, period. And I know, I've tried. (Well, didn't mean to. Was passing through lowsec, got cornered by an Ishtar, scrammed; tank lasted 5 minutes before breaking. I took him down to, oh, just under the 100% mark on his shields. If I'd had better shield comp skills and such I'd have lived longer, but there was very little I could do at that point to improve my dps. The BEST I could've hoped for was to tank him indefinitely until one of us called in some corpies).
They are great for soloing L3's and most L4's (all L4's if you fit properly and play smart), and virtually nothing else. Also they look stupid.
And if you had killed his drones in those 5 minutes youd be alive.
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steveid
Haiduken
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:09:00 -
[172]
I really dont get the thinking behind this arguement tbh. Every race can have a ship that tanks well passively and does similer damage. The drake is just one of the better ones.
The drake:
Shield Power Relay II X 4
Invulnerability Field II X 2 Shield Recharger II Large Shield Extender II X 3
Heavy Missile Launcher II X 7
Core Defence Field Purger I X 3
does 332 damage (fury) max skills tanking 972 dps.
Harbinger:
Shield Power Relay II X 6
Invulnerability Field II X 2 Large Shield Extender II X 2
Heavy Pulse Laser II X 7
Core Defence Field Purger I X 3
Hammerhead II x5
Does 520 dps (conflag) max skills with 705 dps tank
Hurricane:
Shield Power Relay II X 6
Invulnerability Field II X 2 Large Shield Extender II X 2
425mm AutoCannon II X 6
Heavy Missile Launcher II X 2
Core Defence Field Purger I X 3
Does 530 dps (hail, fury) max skills with 768 dps tank
Myrmidon
Shield Power Relay II X 5
Invulnerability Field II X 2 Large Shield Extender II X 3
Heavy Neutron Blaster II X 4 Heavy Ion Blaster II X 2
Core Defence Field Purger I X 3
Hammerhead II x2 Ogre II x2 Warrior II x1
Does 594 dps (void) max skills with 947 dps tank.
Ofc i'm not advocating any of these setup and certainly not the ammo choice but you see my point. The drake tanks marginally better than the myrm for a lot less damage but the harbinger and caine still tank damn well for decent damage.
Stop bloody moaning.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:15:00 -
[173]
Originally by: steveid
Harbinger:
Shield Power Relay II X 6
Invulnerability Field II X 2 Large Shield Extender II X 2
Heavy Pulse Laser II X 7
Core Defence Field Purger I X 3
Hammerhead II x5
Does 520 dps (conflag) max skills with 705 dps tank
You, sir, are clueless.
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steveid
Haiduken
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:17:00 -
[174]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: steveid
Harbinger:
Shield Power Relay II X 6
Invulnerability Field II X 2 Large Shield Extender II X 2
Heavy Pulse Laser II X 7
Core Defence Field Purger I X 3
Hammerhead II x5
Does 520 dps (conflag) max skills with 705 dps tank
You, sir, are clueless.
altho i hesitate to respond to such an obvious and silly troll do you care to explain why, or are you just going to stick to the no-so-snappy one liners? As i stated its not a ship i would fit like that but it can be done for an effect similer to the drakes.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:21:00 -
[175]
Originally by: steveid
altho i hesitate to respond to such an obvious and silly troll do you care to explain why, or are you just going to stick to the no-so-snappy one liners? As i stated its not a ship i would fit like that but it can be done for an effect similer to the drakes.
Capacitor.
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steveid
Haiduken
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:27:00 -
[176]
you get 5 minutes (without adding a nos). Not great but meh you cant have everything. Not trying to say how to fit the harby, just what is possible. Hell you could fit it with autocannons and still get over 400 dps.
Your missing what i'm trying to say. The OP is stating that the drake is overpowered. I'm stating that it, in fact, sucks when compared with other races.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:31:00 -
[177]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 03/08/2008 01:33:00
Originally by: steveid you get 5 minutes (without adding a nos). Not great but meh you cant have everything. Not trying to say how to fit the harby, just what is possible. Hell you could fit it with autocannons and still get over 400 dps.
Your missing what i'm trying to say. The OP is stating that the drake is overpowered. I'm stating that it, in fact, sucks when compared with other races.
What do you think is going to happen after you fire for those 4 minutes, 4 seconds? Your cap drains WITHOUT the guns running, IE if you never activated your guns, your cap would be dry in 15 minutes.
After your cap is dry, you'll be able to fire one gun about every 2 seconds.
Edit: PS, the OP doesn't think drakes are the only thing overpowered, he said all forms of passive tanking, which includes all of your EFT foolery setups. Instead of comparing the races, compare active tanking vs passive tanking.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.08.03 02:12:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 03/08/2008 02:15:45 Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 03/08/2008 02:13:34
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Instead of comparing the races, compare active tanking vs passive tanking.
There isn't much to compare; passive tanking lags behind on almost every ship in game. Only a few ships can even get away with it in pvp (drake and myrm), but will break very easily to any gank ship.
Honestly, passive tanking needs a boost.
Passive tanked drake dies to a single raven. And without the ability to mwd away, has no chance of escaping if one warps in on it. A buffered drake has many more uses, puts out more dps, and can actually move around and dictate range (which is, surprisingly, very important to a missile boat).
Why would you even consider a horribley fit ship like a passive tanked drake as overpowered?
Originally by: steveid
Heavy Pulse Laser II X 7
Core Defence Field Purger I X 3
Hammerhead II x5
Does 520 dps (conflag) max skills with 705 dps tank
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Gneeznow
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.03 02:15:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 03/08/2008 02:13:34
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Instead of comparing the races, compare active tanking vs passive tanking.
There isn't much to compare; passive tanking lags behind on almost every ship in game. Only a few ships can even get away with it in pvp (drake and myrm), but will break very easily to any gank ship.
Honestly, passive tanking needs a boost.
Passive tanked drake dies to a single raven. And without the ability to mwd away, has no chance of escaping if one warps in on it. A buffered drake has many more uses, puts out more dps, and can actually move around and dictate range (which is, surprisingly, very important to a missile boat).
Why would you even consider a horribley fit ship like a passive tanked drake as overpowered?
wow nice BOOST ME BECAUSE ITS ME post, passive tanked drakes can passive tank a bs already, and you want it boosted?
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.08.03 02:17:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 03/08/2008 02:18:38
Originally by: Gneeznow
wow nice BOOST ME BECAUSE ITS ME post, passive tanked drakes can passive tank a bs already, and you want it boosted?
Again, torp raven can break any drake setup with relative ease.
So a drake, with a full tank, can tank some BS setups. Why is this bad? With that setup, it can't move, point, or web you, and put up an amazing 349 dps with max skills.
By the way, a single heavy neut on any BS will kill the drake.
Edit: Me? I've never passive tanked a drake, aside from one that I was given by a corp mate, and felt like I had to utilize the already fit purger rigs
It's such a crappy ship tbh, I broke easily.
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