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Lorz0r
You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:34:00 -
[691]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Lorz0r
Originally by: Srioghal moDhream There is no way a caldari ship should add anything to pvp so nerf the falcon. Nerf the raven too as it is becoming a usable ship in pvp. Hit them hard so that they know there place is in pve and they will never leave it again.
Look I fly Caldari and yeah we aren't the best for PVP but when 1 ship can essentially make a small gang of battleships totally and utterly useless from 180km away then something isn't right.
Why is it not right? I'm curious - it is afterall what the ship is designed to do fit to do and flown to do. If it didn't do that THEN we'd have some problems about things not being right.
Of course, it is irritating to be jammed - I can sympathize. I have flown falcons (and I don't really enjoy it much but that's neither here nor there) and I have been on the receiving end of falcons and I think either side of that particular stick sucks but face the music: the falcon is the ONLY recon that is useful in any gang for any situation. Does that make it overpowered or does that indicate the other recons are underpowered? I tend to believe the latter.
Think whatever you want, Falcon's make PVP boring as hell. |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:37:00 -
[692]
Originally by: Lorz0r
Think whatever you want, Falcon's make PVP boring as hell.
i think thats more the fault of ECM than the falcon.
back when everyone used ecm pvp was boring so they nerffed it, then the falcon came along and they boosted it so it was decent at jamming, everyone gets jammed again and everyone whines...
while im up for nerfing falcons, really a tweak to ecm might be better (such as making a jam only lasts 5 seconds while the cycle lasts 20 seconds still, so more of an annoying burst) |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:40:00 -
[693]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 11:40:43
Originally by: Derek Sigres the falcon is the ONLY recon that is useful in any gang for any situation. Does that make it overpowered or does that indicate the other recons are underpowered? I tend to believe the latter.
Well, see, I tend to believe the former.
The force multiplier that Falcons (and other recons would be if they were boosted as you think they should) are simply trump the effectiveness of any other T2 cruisers (and a variety of other ships) by a huge margin (including purely support T2 cruisers).
If all recons are going to be boosted to Falcon standards, then logistics (being purely support) need a big buff, naturally HACs/etc need a massive boost (particularly support ones) and so on. And I won't even mention the covops cloak.
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Gods Coldblood
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:41:00 -
[694]
Id like to see fights more tactical than who ever brings the most ecm wins...
Lets face it, there are many many corps out there who do this all day long...
ECM is a boring pvp module, makes fights not worth fighting blah blah blah....
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Ash Bringer
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:24:00 -
[695]
ECM demands u commit to your fights.
You go there jammed and wait to be slaughtered next.
But somehow it only works in caldari ships which don't have high dps uber tank setups(not counting pve tanks)...
Boost ECM to its original values and let them be used by all . This will nerf Falcon as no one will used it ever.. 3 missile slots with no tank whatsoever lol. |
Nijikon
Gallente CBC Interstellar
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:31:00 -
[696]
leave ecm, make damps 200km range, chance and racial based including multispec and remove scripts and stacking penalties - i would be happy :] |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.21 18:06:00 -
[697]
If the falcon CANNOT effectively remove 2 ships worth of DPS (or the other ECM ships for that matter) then there is no reason to fly the ships.
As such, I present my multi step program for "fixing" ecm since it appears everyone believes it's "broken". Note that the steps are in order if implementation and represent a scalability to the "nerf" proposal. 1) Make ECCM a sensor booster script 2) Boost ECCM effectiveness on small ships (give it an base strength bonus and a percentage bonus with an either/or standard, whichever is higher) 3) Reduce falcon's jam strength to 15% per level versus 20% 4) Reduce Falcon's Range from 10% to 5% per level
I don't think it will take all four steps - really 1 and 2 would essentially resolve the issue. 3 and 4 would still make the falcon useful for it's surprise EWAR but it would be forced into closer ranges (zealot's for example could murder them) while the rook would take the long range/high strength jamming roles. |
supr3m3justic3
Caldari ACE'S OVER 8'S
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Posted - 2008.08.21 18:58:00 -
[698]
\/ NANO NERF \/ __________________________________________________
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:55:00 -
[699]
Originally by: supr3m3justic3 \/ NANO NERF \/
^^ hurray
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Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:59:00 -
[700]
Giving damps a decent optimal range would be a great help as well. As it stands, the falcon has no real nemesis. If damps optimal was farther then I could spit it would actually give falcon pilots something to fear.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.08.21 23:29:00 -
[701]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei Giving damps a decent optimal range would be a great help as well. As it stands, the falcon has no real nemesis. If damps optimal was farther then I could spit it would actually give falcon pilots something to fear.
yeah, at least make them feel as usless as the 4+ ships they destroy the fun for in a fight
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.08.23 01:54:00 -
[702]
just tested on a TQ fight
rook with 4.9896 strength on multis and a 7.4844 on racials, fitted with 4x caldari and 2x multi.
falcon fitted with 6x multis at 9.03 strength (way more than the rook combined)
we had a 20 minute ECM brawl.
rook ecm ship strength 32
falcon ecm ship strength 28
No word of lie, the falcon was jammed for 90% of the fight, falcon might get a jam in on the rook when the rooks jammers failed but was rare and the falcon was perma jammed for a huge amount of the fight.
bare in mind the falcon had near double the strenth of the rooks multis, and way more than racials and yet the falcon gets jammed SIGNIFICANTLY more than the rook.
the ECM calculations DO NOT WORK and need to be looked at, the paper work says the falcon should jam the rook easily for a long time but we see the exact opposite.
now you may say this is circumstantial but this was a 20 minute engagement, carefully recorded.
ECM is messed up, changed based is one thing but something somewhere is completely broken.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 02:34:00 -
[703]
Originally by: Dr Fighter wasted stuff
With those fittings, a Rook (statistically) will jam every cycle if everything is on.
Assuming the Rook locked first (it should have, more sensor res and no cloak fitted), the falcon would be perma jammed.
Not broken, working as intended.
while your falcon pilot warps off in a pod, baffled at why his FC Borat can't learn to not pyramid-quote.
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Shardrael
Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team
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Posted - 2008.08.23 07:50:00 -
[704]
Originally by: Dr Fighter just tested on a TQ fight
rook with 4.9896 strength on multis and a 7.4844 on racials, fitted with 4x caldari and 2x multi.
falcon fitted with 6x multis at 9.03 strength (way more than the rook combined)
we had a 20 minute ECM brawl.
rook ecm ship strength 32
falcon ecm ship strength 28
No word of lie, the falcon was jammed for 90% of the fight, falcon might get a jam in on the rook when the rooks jammers failed but was rare and the falcon was perma jammed for a huge amount of the fight.
bare in mind the falcon had near double the strenth of the rooks multis, and way more than racials and yet the falcon gets jammed SIGNIFICANTLY more than the rook.
the ECM calculations DO NOT WORK and need to be looked at, the paper work says the falcon should jam the rook easily for a long time but we see the exact opposite.
now you may say this is circumstantial but this was a 20 minute engagement, carefully recorded.
ECM is messed up, changed based is one thing but something somewhere is completely broken.
unless my math is way off the rook had a 27% chance to jam the falcon and the falcon had a 28% chance to jam the rook, when lookin at rook racials vs falcon and falcon multis vs rook.
in that case they are actually evenly matched against eachother and the fact that the rook had 4 racials in addition to the 2 multis means by taking chance into effect it should have been able to permajam the falcon, just as the falcon technically should have been able to get the rook but if the rook got first jam in it should keep it jammed for the whole fight.
a more accurate test would be going 1 against the other with the receiving one not jamming back and then counting up how many succesful jams vs how many attempts. Then you can find out if the math on ecm is correct or not.
until you do something of that nature that is more controlled you cant really make a claim one way or another about the math because there are to many variables among them locking time, lag etc.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:12:00 -
[705]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei Giving damps a decent optimal range would be a great help as well. As it stands, the falcon has no real nemesis. If damps optimal was farther then I could spit it would actually give falcon pilots something to fear.
Too overpowered. The only counter to damps would be damps then. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:59:00 -
[706]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ignatious Mei Giving damps a decent optimal range would be a great help as well. As it stands, the falcon has no real nemesis. If damps optimal was farther then I could spit it would actually give falcon pilots something to fear.
Too overpowered. The only counter to damps would be damps then.
Like the only realistic counter to ECM is ... ECM ?
Since if ECCM is so damn uber, we'll just see Falcons fit it and then what ...
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:13:00 -
[707]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ignatious Mei Giving damps a decent optimal range would be a great help as well. As it stands, the falcon has no real nemesis. If damps optimal was farther then I could spit it would actually give falcon pilots something to fear.
Too overpowered. The only counter to damps would be damps then.
Like the only realistic counter to ECM is ... ECM ?
Since if ECCM is so damn uber, we'll just see Falcons fit it and then what ...
I know ECM is the only real counter to ECM. Im one of the few that are fighting against the crowd on that. I want the falcon nerfed, not damps boosted to overpoweredness. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:15:00 -
[708]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
With those fittings, a Rook (statistically) will jam every cycle if everything is on.
Far from it.
It will have a 76% chance of jamming. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes. |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:26:00 -
[709]
Because 76% is such a low number. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
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Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:30:00 -
[710]
Originally by: Spaztick Because 76% is such a low number.
What's that supposed to mean?
He claimed it was 100%. It isn't. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes. |
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:35:00 -
[711]
Originally by: Dr Fighter just tested on a TQ fight
rook with 4.9896 strength on multis and a 7.4844 on racials, fitted with 4x caldari and 2x multi.
falcon fitted with 6x multis at 9.03 strength (way more than the rook combined)
we had a 20 minute ECM brawl.
rook ecm ship strength 32
falcon ecm ship strength 28
No word of lie, the falcon was jammed for 90% of the fight, falcon might get a jam in on the rook when the rooks jammers failed but was rare and the falcon was perma jammed for a huge amount of the fight.
bare in mind the falcon had near double the strenth of the rooks multis, and way more than racials and yet the falcon gets jammed SIGNIFICANTLY more than the rook.
the ECM calculations DO NOT WORK and need to be looked at, the paper work says the falcon should jam the rook easily for a long time but we see the exact opposite.
now you may say this is circumstantial but this was a 20 minute engagement, carefully recorded.
ECM is messed up, changed based is one thing but something somewhere is completely broken.
You are mistaken. You need to compose the probabilities of all ECM modules used.
In your example, for EACH Cycle:
Rook combined chance to jam the Falcon: ~80.6% Falcon combined chance to jam the Rook: ~86.2%
Chances are fairly equivalent. Additionally with these high chances the first ship that gets a jam will have a clear advantage because it is likely that it will get another and another in sequence. If you extend your tests to a long period of time, though, you should have each ship jammed about 50% of the time.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.09.01 21:35:00 -
[712]
Nerf falcons, you know they are going to be trouble especially after nano nerf. |
Highfaust
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Posted - 2008.09.01 21:39:00 -
[713]
Wanna know how to counter falcon?
Look and see for yourself, its not that hard...
Linkage |
Rudy Metallo
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.09.01 23:51:00 -
[714]
Originally by: Aneu Angellus They are called ECCM Modules... USE THEM
AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Hope thats a troll.
ECM does need a slight nerf tbh. |
The Tzar
Malicious Intentions Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.09.02 00:07:00 -
[715]
Yawn yawn yawn.
Q : How many tips from falcon pilots does it take to stop a whiner.
A : Infinity, because they will whine about anything as they're losers!!
The best defence against ECM is to fly gangs of one or two races only. Practically all ECM boats fit a mix of racials so you fly all gallente say and you have reduced the stopping power of the enemy ECM boats.
If only you would put this much energy into whining about real problems in the real world maybe it would be a better place. For every loser little whine you place on these forums donate some money to charity or petition against cruelty to xxx...
Do something CONSTRUCTIVE for a change...
Thankyou! |
Ulasim
Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.09.02 05:37:00 -
[716]
Originally by: The Tzar Yawn yawn yawn.
Q : How many tips from falcon pilots does it take to stop a whiner.
A : Infinity, because they will whine about anything as they're losers!!
The best defence against ECM is to fly gangs of one or two races only. Practically all ECM boats fit a mix of racials so you fly all gallente say and you have reduced the stopping power of the enemy ECM boats.
If only you would put this much energy into whining about real problems in the real world maybe it would be a better place. For every loser little whine you place on these forums donate some money to charity or petition against cruelty to xxx...
Do something CONSTRUCTIVE for a change...
Thankyou!
So to counter 1 ship I have to cross train? well hell to counter nanos all you have to do is train for a rapier or curse so why nerf those? |
Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.02 06:00:00 -
[717]
When I switched games a while ago I had master plan to have fast attack solo ships and extreme group ships. This led me to a Minny toon with 25mil sp in cruisers. Now after I get to this point I'm suppose to switch to caldari to fly Recons and Scorpians. Basically planned over a year and half ago to find out I'm just following the nerf bat. Basically normal group pvp tactics from games dating back to bolo are going to get thrown out the window because of mass whiners like this thread. EvE in all its cut throat glory is kinda carebear on its nerfing. |
YueRu
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Posted - 2008.09.17 07:54:00 -
[718]
What if instead of completely remove your target lock, ECMs would gray them out for the during of the jam, and the moment you are unjammed you still have the same targets locked? It seems to me that much of the problem with being jammed 80% of the time is that it takes the remaining 20% to re-lock on to something on a bs ship, then getting jammed again.
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Car Wars
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.17 09:00:00 -
[719]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ignatious Mei Giving damps a decent optimal range would be a great help as well. As it stands, the falcon has no real nemesis. If damps optimal was farther then I could spit it would actually give falcon pilots something to fear.
Too overpowered. The only counter to damps would be damps then.
the nOob is strong in this thread.
Counters to damps:
-close the distance: an inty can kill an arazu (weak-no tank, no dps) -sensor boosters -jam first -damage: most recons die to 2-3 volleys of a bs.
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Saisio Arisu
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Posted - 2008.09.17 22:12:00 -
[720]
Stop complain, well it is counter messure to everything in eve. I am tried of hear people complain about things and system in eve. It is all about skills and tactics and expriance nothing more. If a pilot what to spesialize in ecm and min maxed the skill let him do so. And if people have problems with that train the skill needed for counter the ecm effect's
Regards Saisio Arisu
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