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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.11.07 12:05:00 -
[901]
Originally by: Karentaki The main problem I see is the difference in range between ECM and other forms of E-WAR:
ECM: 36 or 54 km optimal Falcon: 100% bonus to ECM optimal range
Sensor Damps: 30 km optimal Arazu: NO RANGE BONUS
Yeah. Arazu and Lachesis seriously need a range bonus for damps.
I'd gladly exchange the useless hybrid damage bonus for something that gave my damps some actually useful range. I've never been able to figure out why damper ships (which would seem to be intended to be used as counters to ranged stuff) get no range bonus, while ECM ships do.
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.07 12:07:00 -
[902]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Karentaki The main problem I see is the difference in range between ECM and other forms of E-WAR:
ECM: 36 or 54 km optimal Falcon: 100% bonus to ECM optimal range
Sensor Damps: 30 km optimal Arazu: NO RANGE BONUS
Yeah. Arazu and Lachesis seriously need a range bonus for damps.
I'd gladly exchange the useless hybrid damage bonus for something that gave my damps some actually useful range. I've never been able to figure out why damper ships (which would seem to be intended to be used as counters to ranged stuff) get no range bonus, while ECM ships do.
Ok viable critics..but Caldari where meant as long range anyway...seeing as the Rokh COULD reach 400km range if tehre wasn't a cap [and with cap being just an average Sniper -.-]
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.11.07 12:13:00 -
[903]
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Originally by: Aaron Mirrorsaver you know ecm is over powered when...
guy in your corp, flying a caracal!, with no jamming skills cept for module use, using amarr jammers, jams up to tier 3 battleships.
you should never get a jam on any ship in those circumstances.
so add in the correct racial the correct ship, and the perfect jamming skills... and you see why a falcon can perma jam 4-5 targets depending.
I really wonder WHERE you get the impressiona falcon coul permajam more than 1 ship
There was a thread with the maths...a Faclon could only permajam 2 targets if it had 4+4 racilas for each of the two BSes
BTW: As ECM is Chance based ist all or nothing...same caracal coul Sensor Damp said BS, too without more than the skill to 1...and that would hit always...[/quote
would people like you who have no idea of statistics please stop to explain "chance based" mechanics
If u assume the usual fight takes 1 minute than 2 racials will permajam a battleship in 78.276% of all fights. That means that a falcon will permajam 3 battleships in 47.96% of it's fights while it Permajams (!!) at least in 60.84 percent of it's fight. and it's battleships. A flight of 6 vagas will be permajammed if a falcon has 6 minmatar racials and they will by permajammed by a chance of 100%.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.11.07 12:15:00 -
[904]
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Ok viable critics..but Caldari where meant as long range anyway...seeing as the Rokh COULD reach 400km range if tehre wasn't a cap [and with cap being just an average Sniper -.-]
I'm not saying that the ECM boats need a reduction in range (though slightly nerfing Falcon range might make the other ECM boats more viable).
I'm saying that the Gallete recons would also need a range bonus, and the lack of that makes damps very, very weak on them (since they no longer work much vs closerange targets after the damp nerf). With a range bonus, they would be able to work much better as anti-sniper (and yes, anti-Falcon) platforms, giving them some sort of a role back.
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The Tzar
Malicious Intentions
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Posted - 2008.11.07 13:34:00 -
[905]
It has to be realised that even with a falcon fitted with 5 gallente jammers trying to jam up a thorax (sensor strength 15) the falcon could still fail every single on of those jams as it doesn't have equal to or more than is sensor strength in jams.
The same statistically is conversely true against battleships. Even with only 1% of the needed jam power the falcon still has a 'chance' (all be it slim as hell) to jam the BS.
Unless you are constantly flying frigates the phrase permajam means no more than many other oxymorons banded around these forums.
If someone wants to come back with 100 falcon encouters with proof of being jammed every time then we have a decent data bank to draw some stats on. Less than this and your permajam argument hold no mathematical weight and is nothing more than emotion I'm afraid. __________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________ |
Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.11.07 15:24:00 -
[906]
Originally by: The Tzar
It has to be realised that even with a falcon fitted with 5 gallente jammers trying to jam up a thorax (sensor strength 15) the falcon could still fail every single on of those jams as it doesn't have equal to or more than is sensor strength in jams.
The same statistically is conversely true against battleships. Even with only 1% of the needed jam power the falcon still has a 'chance' (all be it slim as hell) to jam the BS.
Unless you are constantly flying frigates the phrase permajam means no more than many other oxymorons banded around these forums.
If someone wants to come back with 100 falcon encouters with proof of being jammed every time then we have a decent data bank to draw some stats on. Less than this and your permajam argument hold no mathematical weight and is nothing more than emotion I'm afraid.
How about you calculate the statistical probabilities here?
'Put a million monkeys at a million typewriters...'
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:19:00 -
[907]
Originally by: per fit ECCM you crybabies
I'd rather fit a falcon instead and THAT is the definition of overpowered. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.07 19:04:00 -
[908]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: per fit ECCM you crybabies
I'd rather fit a falcon instead and THAT is the definition of overpowered.
So you think that preferring to bring a entire ship on an entire account piloted by a alt or another person entirely instead of using a eccm unit makes the falcon overpowered.......?.
WTB a single module that has the ability and adds to a gang the same ability of a entire T2 ship.
You need to redefine your idea of overpowered pal because a module like that really would be the definition of overpowered.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.09 00:18:00 -
[909]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/11/2008 00:19:59
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 07/11/2008 19:06:29
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: per fit ECCM you crybabies
I'd rather fit a falcon instead and THAT is the definition of overpowered.
So you think that preferring to bring a entire ship on an entire account piloted by a alt or another person entirely instead of using a eccm unit makes the falcon overpowered.......?.
WTB a single module that has the ability and adds to a gang the same ability of a entire T2 ship.
You need to redefine your idea of overpowered pal because a module like that really would be the definition of overpowered. While most gangs would rather have another ship (any ship let alone t2) instead of a single module.
No, overpowered is when falcon is always the answer to every problem.
-We need ecm protection: bring a falcon -We need a hidden ace force multiplier: bring a falcon -We want to fight outnumbered/outgunned: bring a falcon -We need one more ship to this gang (ANY type/size of gang) that doesn't have a falcon: bring a falcon -We need a scout/cynoship/offensive ewar/defensive ewar: bring a falcon -We want a get out of jail card in my gang or solo so I can warp off when things go bad: bring a falcon -We need a ship that can protect light tacklers from being killed by getting webbed by big targets: bring a falcon
Yeah it IS overpowered and we ALL know it. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
GateScout
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Posted - 2008.11.09 00:51:00 -
[910]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We need ecm protection: bring a falcon -We need a hidden ace force multiplier: bring a falcon -We want to fight outnumbered/outgunned: bring a falcon -We need one more ship to this gang (ANY type/size of gang) that doesn't have a falcon: bring a falcon -We need a scout/cynoship/offensive ewar/defensive ewar: bring a falcon -We want a get out of jail card in my gang or solo so I can warp off when things go bad: bring a falcon -We need a ship that can protect light tacklers from being killed by getting webbed by big targets: bring a falcon
Here is your post simplified:
We need an excuse for our crap gang, Whine on the forums. We need an excuse for our poor fits, Whine on the forums. We need an excuse for our pathetic tactics, Whine on the forums.
Yeah it IS a whine and we ALL know it.
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Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.11.09 01:09:00 -
[911]
Originally by: Sidewayzracer
Originally by: Borat Sangdiev There should be no ship that is allowed to completely disable your ability to target back and fight. Perma jamming falcons and ecm are overpowered. nerf it.
no such thing as perma jamming only you being a completly unlucky tit
Actually there is, though if you are taking on a totally maxed t2 falcon with a t1 frig you are probably deserving it.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.11.09 01:27:00 -
[912]
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Sidewayzracer
Originally by: Borat Sangdiev There should be no ship that is allowed to completely disable your ability to target back and fight. Perma jamming falcons and ecm are overpowered. nerf it.
no such thing as perma jamming only you being a completly unlucky tit
Actually there is, though if you are taking on a totally maxed t2 falcon with a t1 frig you are probably deserving it.
actually a vaga/muninn can be permajammed by a maxed falcon with a single racial jammerwith a 100% chance
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Yoko Lee
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.09 01:38:00 -
[913]
Originally by: chrisss0r
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Sidewayzracer
Originally by: Borat Sangdiev There should be no ship that is allowed to completely disable your ability to target back and fight. Perma jamming falcons and ecm are overpowered. nerf it.
no such thing as perma jamming only you being a completly unlucky tit
Actually there is, though if you are taking on a totally maxed t2 falcon with a t1 frig you are probably deserving it.
actually a vaga/muninn can be permajammed by a maxed falcon with a single racial jammerwith a 100% chance
all hac cs bc cruiser can be perma jam with falcon (med ecm drone work too much too)
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.11.09 01:49:00 -
[914]
yeah but it's only the minmatar ones that have a 100% chance to be jammed. other differ from 80-96 for a single racial
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.09 01:49:00 -
[915]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/11/2008 01:50:03
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We need ecm protection: bring a falcon -We need a hidden ace force multiplier: bring a falcon -We want to fight outnumbered/outgunned: bring a falcon -We need one more ship to this gang (ANY type/size of gang) that doesn't have a falcon: bring a falcon -We need a scout/cynoship/offensive ewar/defensive ewar: bring a falcon -We want a get out of jail card in my gang or solo so I can warp off when things go bad: bring a falcon -We need a ship that can protect light tacklers from being killed by getting webbed by big targets: bring a falcon
Here is your post simplified:
We need an excuse for our crap gang, Whine on the forums. We need an excuse for our poor fits, Whine on the forums. We need an excuse for our pathetic tactics, Whine on the forums.
Yeah it IS a whine and we ALL know it.
>"Falcon is OP" >"You're whining on the forums."
Thanks for the relevant and insightful comment, Sherlock.
Covops cloak makes it totally overpowered for small gang / low-sec situations.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.09 02:10:00 -
[916]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We need ecm protection: bring a falcon -We need a hidden ace force multiplier: bring a falcon -We want to fight outnumbered/outgunned: bring a falcon -We need one more ship to this gang (ANY type/size of gang) that doesn't have a falcon: bring a falcon -We need a scout/cynoship/offensive ewar/defensive ewar: bring a falcon -We want a get out of jail card in my gang or solo so I can warp off when things go bad: bring a falcon -We need a ship that can protect light tacklers from being killed by getting webbed by big targets: bring a falcon
Here is your post simplified:
We need an excuse for our crap gang, Whine on the forums. We need an excuse for our poor fits, Whine on the forums. We need an excuse for our pathetic tactics, Whine on the forums.
Yeah it IS a whine and we ALL know it.
You fail. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2008.11.09 02:23:00 -
[917]
IMO biggest problem with falcon is that it very succesfully ruins just about any small scale fight by its mere presence, which is very easy to spot despite the cloak (usually it's the achura guy with little or no standings you can't see on scan). Fights that I'd often accept, for example 2 or 3 vs 4 or 5, usually dont happen because 1 of the 4 or 5 is a ship that can keep 2 or 3 of us permanently unable to lock until downtime. Answer is have your own falcon- circle with no escape. And no, eccm is of very limited use when small numbers are involved plus with small numbers you usually need the mids for other mods. In short, instead of having fun you end up avoiding it (if being jammed qualifies as fun).
Since this is pretty counterproductive for pvp gameplay that doesnt involve 200452543454353698634 people I'd say problem is rather serious because there is still substantial amount of us who are not involved in bob/anti bob part of eve and dont participate in 100 dreads vs 100 dreads who are all in siege mode and therefore unjammable sort of stuff because we dont like it.
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CpHarding
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Posted - 2008.11.09 05:37:00 -
[918]
ECCM is the counter to ecm the same way sensor boosters are a counter to Damps, i've been up against ships that a full rack can't jam because they ECCM, you have a module to counter falcons already, which you can fit as many of as you have med slots, and if you really want in a gang use projected ECCM, that way whoeveer is being jammed can get sensor boosts from everyone. There is a viable counter to falcons, people choose not to use it.
If people go and say well i don't have enough mid slots then they need to sort out priorties, one ship can't do everything.
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arbiter reformed
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Posted - 2008.11.09 06:03:00 -
[919]
lol nerf it Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator |
arbiter reformed
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Posted - 2008.11.09 06:25:00 -
[920]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We need ecm protection: bring a falcon -We need a hidden ace force multiplier: bring a falcon -We want to fight outnumbered/outgunned: bring a falcon -We need one more ship to this gang (ANY type/size of gang) that doesn't have a falcon: bring a falcon -We need a scout/cynoship/offensive ewar/defensive ewar: bring a falcon -We want a get out of jail card in my gang or solo so I can warp off when things go bad: bring a falcon -We need a ship that can protect light tacklers from being killed by getting webbed by big targets: bring a falcon
Here is your post simplified:
We need an excuse for our crap gang, Whine on the forums. We need an excuse for our poor fits, Whine on the forums. We need an excuse for our pathetic tactics, Whine on the forums.
Yeah it IS a whine and we ALL know it.
As for this. well, i beg you to wardec dna and find out really.
Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator |
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.11.09 06:57:00 -
[921]
Nerf them falcons.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.09 09:11:00 -
[922]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
No, overpowered is when falcon is always the answer to every problem.
-We need ecm protection: bring a falcon
Damps can be fitted on any ship and be effective.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We need a hidden ace force multiplier: bring a falcon
Its a tactical ship used in small gang combat, whats your point?.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We want to fight outnumbered/outgunned: bring a falcon
And its still a tactical ship, so still whats your point?.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We need one more ship to this gang (ANY type/size of gang) that doesn't have a falcon: bring a falcon
So a gang with a specialized ECM ship is stronger than a gang without a specialized ECM?...again whats your point?.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We need a scout/cynoship/offensive ewar/defensive ewar: bring a falcon
We know its a ECM ship you have already covered that in your repetative posts above, changing the wording a little to fill out you pathetic argument is rather sad.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We want a get out of jail card in my gang or solo so I can warp off when things go bad: bring a falcon
If you have a falcon available and with you aint frigin solo are you?, and yea yea once again its a ECM ship..blah blah.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer -We need a ship that can protect light tacklers from being killed by getting webbed by big targets: bring a falcon
And again you repeat the obvious fact that its a ECM ship.....blah blah...thats its job and doing its job is not overpowered its exactly powered enough.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.09 10:26:00 -
[923]
Originally by: arbiter reformed
the falcon has absolutely no downfall over the rook exept for a bit of dps, which it isnt there for, it insted get a cloak. so som1 get close enough to kill it? jam it cloak warp off,
And miss that jam and your falcon is dead.
Originally by: arbiter reformed there is - at the moment- no reason to bring a rook to a gang if said pilot can bring a falcon.
So?...a rook can fit a standard T2 cloak and sit in a pounce spot and warp in on a hostile gang at range and all it sacrifices is a little lock time.
Originally by: arbiter reformed id do also have quarrels with ecm. as a whole i find it boring
Its a tactical module and considerably less effective than damps in gang combat when used on non bonused ships.
Without ECM or ewar falcons or not the game would be boring and even more a stationary F1 blob vs blob piece of crap.
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2008.11.09 11:13:00 -
[924]
Originally by: CpHarding ECCM is the counter to ecm the same way sensor boosters are a counter to Damps, i've been up against ships that a full rack can't jam because they ECCM, you have a module to counter falcons already, which you can fit as many of as you have med slots, and if you really want in a gang use projected ECCM, that way whoeveer is being jammed can get sensor boosts from everyone. There is a viable counter to falcons, people choose not to use it.
If people go and say well i don't have enough mid slots then they need to sort out priorties, one ship can't do everything.
But you see thing is not everyone is always in gang big enough to use mids that way. It's the small scale pvp that falcon is very close to ruining. In big gangs there is no question about it, fit 1 or 2 ECCMs per ship, it's possible and it works well.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.09 11:19:00 -
[925]
Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: CpHarding ECCM is the counter to ecm the same way sensor boosters are a counter to Damps, i've been up against ships that a full rack can't jam because they ECCM, you have a module to counter falcons already, which you can fit as many of as you have med slots, and if you really want in a gang use projected ECCM, that way whoeveer is being jammed can get sensor boosts from everyone. There is a viable counter to falcons, people choose not to use it.
If people go and say well i don't have enough mid slots then they need to sort out priorties, one ship can't do everything.
But you see thing is not everyone is always in gang big enough to use mids that way. It's the small scale pvp that falcon is very close to ruining. In big gangs there is no question about it, fit 1 or 2 ECCMs per ship, it's possible and it works well.
2 or 3 ship gangs are only effective against a limited amount of setups anyway so nerfing falcons and making gangs larger than that and the fights they have with each other F1 boring slug fests is not a good idea.
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2008.11.09 11:28:00 -
[926]
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: CpHarding ECCM is the counter to ecm the same way sensor boosters are a counter to Damps, i've been up against ships that a full rack can't jam because they ECCM, you have a module to counter falcons already, which you can fit as many of as you have med slots, and if you really want in a gang use projected ECCM, that way whoeveer is being jammed can get sensor boosts from everyone. There is a viable counter to falcons, people choose not to use it.
If people go and say well i don't have enough mid slots then they need to sort out priorties, one ship can't do everything.
But you see thing is not everyone is always in gang big enough to use mids that way. It's the small scale pvp that falcon is very close to ruining. In big gangs there is no question about it, fit 1 or 2 ECCMs per ship, it's possible and it works well.
2 or 3 ship gangs are only effective against a limited amount of setups anyway so nerfing falcons and making gangs larger than that and the fights they have with each other F1 boring slug fests is not a good idea.
Sorry I was editing my post while you were writing.
I dont agree with you that everyone being able to lock would make the game boring slug fests. First of all slug fests aren't boring. Second nerfing falcons would still mean there would be falcons and having a ship that can knock out certain amount of enemy force out of the picture will always be useful, falcon was great before it's last boost for example. It couldn't permajam 4 people maybe but it was still a very useful recon.
In my oppinion it's boring now, and it's so boring because it's becoming predictable. It's always falcons. And don't get me wrong, I make full use of this, and you will very rarely find me in a gang without them. But I've missed so many fights because of this, and I dont blame anyone for it, it's one thing to go down shooting but to go down with that EW bar endlessly sliding in the bottom of the screen isn't my cup of tea, and it's not what most others like either.
As it is falcons make most other aspects of the game needless since you dont need to tracking disrupt or damp a target that can't lock and you dont need to tank it either.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.09 11:32:00 -
[927]
Edited by: Murina on 09/11/2008 11:35:05
Originally by: Vrabac
Without falcons (of course that would be too extreme solution, but since you mentioned it) game would become far more intensive, with logistics and other recons actually becoming an important factor. This way it's all about falcons and everything else is becoming close to useless. Imagine a gang of 10 BS and 4 pilgrims... LOL. 4 arazus.... LMAO. But 4 falcons? Aha.
Logistics and damps already are a factor and a very useful one if you use them correctly.
10 bs and 4 falcons would get owned one at a time until they ran away by a gang of damp fitted SB as it is not a versatile fit before or after the speed nerf..
The best idea and strongest gang type has versatility, a group of different ships well fitted and with distinct bonuses working together are considerably more powerful against a variety of setups they may come across than a single or limited style like just falcons and BS.
Anybody can put together a counter gang that is perfect for a specific type but that is not available for roaming as you do not have the option to swap out to the perfect fit you need a good option for all and a fully mixed gang with a correct balance of many bonuses including ECM is just that.
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Project Cyborg
Power Of 3
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Posted - 2008.11.10 02:51:00 -
[928]
Here is my video of getting owned by a solo falcon!!1!2! I FAIL
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Silent Else
Gallente Ministry of Destruction
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Posted - 2008.11.10 03:28:00 -
[929]
In all of my EvE Online life I have refrained from making forum post. But I think this troll deserves a post.. If a pilot is willing to spend almost 1 or 2 years as required of their EvE Online Life and yes it takes almost that long, Then they deserve their hard earned advantage, and you need to consider a few things, These falcon pilots don't enjoy the in-your face fighting style or much of anything else because they spend most of all their time doing only one single task which is set off at range and lock, and activate ECM, Their job is one of the most important in the fleet. it's because of these pilots "the equalizers" that smaller gangs can overcome larger blob fleets.
I would like to point out that Command ships are very weak to ECM. That's one of their biggest weak points. Also that the long range of ECM is not OP in any way, otherwise ECM ships would not be useable in gate camps or low-sec gate fights, especially in the upcomming changes, they can't tank gateguns neither can they nano. their only defence is long range. Falcons and Rooks are Utility ships, and smart FCs make use of them. I haven't bothered reading all the post here but ECCM is an option. as well as counter ECM boats in your fleet. Hell what about a Covert Op's bomber, sneak up on the falcon and suicide bomb them. there are many ways to deal with Falcons and ECM in general.
People have issues with exploring alternative options, learn to think outside of the box before comming to the forums to complain so much. I already see a mass underuse of many utilities in EvE, such as Stealth Bombers, Target Painters, ECCM's, Remote Sensor Boosters, Tracking Links, Nos, Interdictors, There are a lot of things people seem to pay no attention too. Most of the things that come to my mind are gang related or supportive in some manner. I just had a thought has anyone noticed a lack of anti-ecm "ECCM" ship? at least a dedicated ship? or have I not looked?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.10 03:44:00 -
[930]
Originally by: Silent Else If a pilot is willing to spend almost 1 or 2 years as required of their EvE Online Life and yes it takes almost that long, Then they deserve their hard earned advantage, and you need to consider a few things, These falcon pilots don't enjoy the in-your face fighting style or much of anything else because they spend most of all their time doing only one single task which is set off at range and lock, and activate ECM, Their job is one of the most important in the fleet. it's because of these pilots "the equalizers" that smaller gangs can overcome larger blob fleets.
Sorry but it does not take 1-2 years to train lvl 4 ecm+falcon skills. You can start a char from scratch and in like 3 months get a falcon pilot that is operational. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
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