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Lossy Lucy
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:03:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Hey, I'll be the first to say that the Dampnerf on Arazus was overdone. That however doesn't change one thing about Arazus effectiveness on Falcons 150k away. Agreed?
I can agree to that. A arazu/lach has a fairly decent chance of breaking the lock of a falcon at 150k. This however does NOT mean that a arazu/lach's effective range is 150k. Agreed?
I suppose that depends. If you have 3 damps and you have one Falcon and a sniper 150k away from you you'd be fairly effective against those wouldn't you say? You wouldn't however be particulary effective protecting a dictor that just bubbled them. Very much situation dependant. Also your scram range would obviously be useless.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:06:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Gypsio III A funny thing is that the current Falcon has similar jamming power to the pre-boost Rook. That was when the forums were busy telling me that ECM was useless.
Of course, the difference is the cloak. The complete absence of Rooks in the field is prima facie evidence that the Falcon is overpowered. It did deserve a boost - previously, it was just a Blackbird with a cloak - but 20% was far too much, as was obvious at the time, realy.
15% would be the obvious solution.
Ofcourse its obvious, the whole pro falcon crowd knows this or are blatant morons if they dont grasp that. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Lossy Lucy
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:09:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Gypsio III A funny thing is that the current Falcon has similar jamming power to the pre-boost Rook. That was when the forums were busy telling me that ECM was useless.
Of course, the difference is the cloak. The complete absence of Rooks in the field is prima facie evidence that the Falcon is overpowered. It did deserve a boost - previously, it was just a Blackbird with a cloak - but 20% was far too much, as was obvious at the time, realy.
15% would be the obvious solution.
As well as moving the strength bonus to the cruiser skill instead of the recon. One should never upgrade from a BB and end up with less jamming strength.
Also the rook should drop the optimal bonus for a speed/agility or damage bonus and get a drone bay. (Hey while we're dreaming might as well go all in huh?)
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Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:13:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Lossy Lucy
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Hey, I'll be the first to say that the Dampnerf on Arazus was overdone. That however doesn't change one thing about Arazus effectiveness on Falcons 150k away. Agreed?
I can agree to that. A arazu/lach has a fairly decent chance of breaking the lock of a falcon at 150k. This however does NOT mean that a arazu/lach's effective range is 150k. Agreed?
I suppose that depends. If you have 3 damps and you have one Falcon and a sniper 150k away from you you'd be fairly effective against those wouldn't you say? You wouldn't however be particulary effective protecting a dictor that just bubbled them. Very much situation dependant. Also your scram range would obviously be useless.
I agree, But frankly, How many people bring 150k snipers in small gang combat? The average engagement range in eve is around 3k to 25k. Most ships fight in that range (Give or take). Since there's no chance of making a ship have to close to less then about 15k because of damp strength the ship really uses the majority of its combat utility. Sure, the disruptor thing is nice, But I would trade it in a heart beat to have a decent damping ship. I mean seriously, a arazu doesn't damp any better then celestis.
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Zephyr Rengate
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:15:00 -
[245]
Falcons are fine.
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Siddy
Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:21:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Siddy on 31/07/2008 16:21:12 Falcons jamming strenght shuld be less thank rooks
Othervice the falcon is fine.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:48:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Endless Subversion @Malcanis
The argument that "a falcon pilot doesn't have good bookmarks everywhere" is pretty weak.
It basically says, "most jamming pilots don't take the time to setup good bookmarks, therefore the potential to which jamming ships could be used isn't realized, therefore they're fine".
It doesn't make falcons/rooks balanced, it just means some players are lazy. When you find the strong players who invested in the bookmarks you see the imbalance come out.
No, I'm just saying that the places bookmarks get made are fairly predictable, and also that if you get pwned by someone who's put lots of thought and preparation into setting up the fight to their advantage, and then whine about his ship being overpowered then you're looking on th wrong side of the screen for the real problem. When I'm in 0.0 I spend long, long hours making bookmarks everywhere I think it's possible I might need them because I'm intensely aware of how crippled the Falcon is without them.
let's get this out into the open here: Lyria, Borat and Ignatious, and their ilk, don't want ECM ships in the game at all.
Now that's not a dishonourable position to take, but what I do resent is the dishonesty with which they're arguing. I've seen just about every rhetorical trick in the book in this thread - go read some evolutionist vs creationist forum threads for an interesting comparison.
Guys, if you don't like ECM and want it gone, that's fine. All you have to do is say what should replace it, and make your case that it will make the game more fun for you and me. If it is more fun, then fine by me - I'll back you up every step of the way. Falcons are damb effective, but they're not really much fun to fly.
Cut out this peevish, childish negativity and put something on the table.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:55:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Originally by: Lossy Lucy
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Hey, I'll be the first to say that the Dampnerf on Arazus was overdone. That however doesn't change one thing about Arazus effectiveness on Falcons 150k away. Agreed?
I can agree to that. A arazu/lach has a fairly decent chance of breaking the lock of a falcon at 150k. This however does NOT mean that a arazu/lach's effective range is 150k. Agreed?
I suppose that depends. If you have 3 damps and you have one Falcon and a sniper 150k away from you you'd be fairly effective against those wouldn't you say? You wouldn't however be particulary effective protecting a dictor that just bubbled them. Very much situation dependant. Also your scram range would obviously be useless.
I agree, But frankly, How many people bring 150k snipers in small gang combat? The average engagement range in eve is around 3k to 25k. Most ships fight in that range (Give or take). Since there's no chance of making a ship have to close to less then about 15k because of damp strength the ship really uses the majority of its combat utility. Sure, the disruptor thing is nice, But I would trade it in a heart beat to have a decent damping ship. I mean seriously, a arazu doesn't damp any better then celestis.
if side 'a' is losing tackle, tank and dps by bringing a long range ship, then it does not unduly disadvantage side 'b' to do so as well.
What truly irritates me are the people who whine that even though
(1) every fight is ruined by eleventy three falcons
(2) it's a "waste" to bring a sniper/fit ECCM/sensor boosters/extra damps/devote ships to countering them
If they're that big a problem, put some goddamb effort into solving them, rather than just fitting out yet another short-range DPSmobile while whining that it takes more than orbit @ 1000m F1-F8 to kill them.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:57:00 -
[249]
"let's get this out into the open here: Lyria, Borat and Ignatious, and their ilk, don't want ECM ships in the game at all."
Thats odd, I don't remember saying that. Just because I think something is overpowered doesn't mean I want it removed, It means I want it balanced. Way to take it to the extreme.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:02:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Siddy Edited by: Siddy on 31/07/2008 16:21:12 Falcons jamming strenght shuld be less thank rooks
Othervice the falcon is fine.
Rook can effectively mount 7 ECMs due to it's longer base locking range (187.5Km with LRT 5!). Falcon is limited to 5 (0.0/lo-sec) or 6 (empire/taking huge chances).
I'd say 40% more jamming power is a pretty good margin.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:02:00 -
[251]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:04:17 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:43 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:26
Originally by: Malcanis
let's get this out into the open here: Lyria, Borat and Ignatious, and their ilk, don't want ECM ships in the game at all.
Wth are you talking about? Did we say anything about removing the other ecm boats? No we didnt. Stop putting words into our mouths or Ill put something else in yours.
Why are you even denying it? You know falcons are overpowered, everyone knows this. It is the same bullshit arguments all over again from the nano discussions. "bla bla you have 343258346 counters, use em" (but unofficially everyone knows there is no real counter except using same tactic).
Oh and about those bookmarks and getting rewarded for being a bookmark hoe as a falcon pilot: Guess what; CCP introduced WARP TO ZERO. CCP does not care for bookmark hoes getting their way. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:03:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei "let's get this out into the open here: Lyria, Borat and Ignatious, and their ilk, don't want ECM ships in the game at all."
Thats odd, I don't remember saying that. Just because I think something is overpowered doesn't mean I want it removed, It means I want it balanced. Way to take it to the extreme.
Are you saying it's not true? Bear in mind I'm not really inclined to trust your honesty after you went back on a publicly stated promise.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:06:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:43 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:26
Originally by: Malcanis
let's get this out into the open here: Lyria, Borat and Ignatious, and their ilk, don't want ECM ships in the game at all.
Wth are you talking about? Did we say anything about removing the other ecm boats? No we didnt. Stop putting words into our mouths or Ill put something else in yours.
Why are you even denying it? You know falcons are overpowered, everyone knows this. It is the same bullshit arguments all over again from the nano discussions. "bla bla you have 343258346 counters, use em".
Oh and about those bookmarks and getting rewarded for being a bookmark hoe as a falcon pilot: Guess what; CCP introduced WARP TO ZERO. CCP does not care for bookmark hoes getting their way.
Sweetcakes, the only thing you're capable of putting in anyone's mouth is a laugh, at your rather clumsy rhetoric. Now hush the threats because playing the hard man over the internet will make you look even sillier than convincing everyone you have no idea how to counter a shiptype that gets destroyed in numbers every day.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:09:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:43 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:26
Originally by: Malcanis
let's get this out into the open here: Lyria, Borat and Ignatious, and their ilk, don't want ECM ships in the game at all.
Wth are you talking about? Did we say anything about removing the other ecm boats? No we didnt. Stop putting words into our mouths or Ill put something else in yours.
Why are you even denying it? You know falcons are overpowered, everyone knows this. It is the same bullshit arguments all over again from the nano discussions. "bla bla you have 343258346 counters, use em".
Oh and about those bookmarks and getting rewarded for being a bookmark hoe as a falcon pilot: Guess what; CCP introduced WARP TO ZERO. CCP does not care for bookmark hoes getting their way.
Sweetcakes, the only thing you're capable of putting in anyone's mouth is a laugh, at your rather clumsy rhetoric. Now hush the threats because playing the hard man over the internet will make you look even sillier than convincing everyone you have no idea how to counter a shiptype that gets destroyed in numbers every day.
Anyone else notice this guys goes to personal insults when he is hit with a a point he cant counter? I give it a few more posts before he starts attacking spelling and grammar as well.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:11:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Anyone else notice this guys goes to personal insults when he is hit with a a point he cant counter? I give it a few more posts before he starts attacking spelling and grammar as well.
Fun part is in a few months Ill be laughing at this guy and his crummy arguments when the nerf comes, just as I am laughing at the nano phags right now that were flaming me in the nano discussions about how I suck and nanos are fine. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Troezar
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:13:00 -
[256]
First off I have a maxed Falcon alt, however I wouldn't be against an ECM tweak or two.
Why? Because I think as combat in EVE centres around locking other ships being able to prevent a lock for 20secs is far in excess or the ability of any other weapon in game.
Take other mods like guns or neuts or webbers, they don't prevent all other offensive modules from being effective. Don't mention FoF's or drones as at close to 200km away they aren't going to worry a Falcon pilot!
Maybe ECM should target some other attribute, maybe stop other EW being used for 20secs but still enable locking and shooting? Might force more cloaking and moving and less perma-jamming? Whether this is a good idea or not I would be for a change away from prevention of locking for 20secs at a time.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:14:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Malcanis
Sweetcakes, the only thing you're capable of putting in anyone's mouth is a laugh, at your rather clumsy rhetoric. Now hush the threats because playing the hard man over the internet will make you look even sillier than convincing everyone you have no idea how to counter a shiptype that gets destroyed in numbers every day.
No arguments left? Sad.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:15:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Troezar First off I have a maxed Falcon alt, however I wouldn't be against an ECM tweak or two.
Why? Because I think as combat in EVE centres around locking other ships being able to prevent a lock for 20secs is far in excess or the ability of any other weapon in game.
Take other mods like guns or neuts or webbers, they don't prevent all other offensive modules from being effective. Don't mention FoF's or drones as at close to 200km away they aren't going to worry a Falcon pilot!
Maybe ECM should target some other attribute, maybe stop other EW being used for 20secs but still enable locking and shooting? Might force more cloaking and moving and less perma-jamming? Whether this is a good idea or not I would be for a change away from prevention of locking for 20secs at a time.
Finally, an honest falcon pilot. I have a nearly maxed falcon alt aswell for a good reason. And youre right, indeed would be more fun ways to implement ecm. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:16:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Malcanis
As I said, we'll see whos laughing when the nerf comes. I'm sure laughing about the nano's for now. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:18:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
As I said, we'll see whos laughing when the nerf comes. I sure am laughing about the nano's for now.
Well, yeah... you're laughing because your race is already being boosted to beyond overpoweredness... and victory will be that much sweeter when there's no little annoying ship that might stop you from totally ****ing over any other pilot from another race.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:20:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:43 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:26
Originally by: Malcanis
let's get this out into the open here: Lyria, Borat and Ignatious, and their ilk, don't want ECM ships in the game at all.
Wth are you talking about? Did we say anything about removing the other ecm boats? No we didnt. Stop putting words into our mouths or Ill put something else in yours.
Why are you even denying it? You know falcons are overpowered, everyone knows this. It is the same bullshit arguments all over again from the nano discussions. "bla bla you have 343258346 counters, use em".
Oh and about those bookmarks and getting rewarded for being a bookmark hoe as a falcon pilot: Guess what; CCP introduced WARP TO ZERO. CCP does not care for bookmark hoes getting their way.
Sweetcakes, the only thing you're capable of putting in anyone's mouth is a laugh, at your rather clumsy rhetoric. Now hush the threats because playing the hard man over the internet will make you look even sillier than convincing everyone you have no idea how to counter a shiptype that gets destroyed in numbers every day.
Anyone else notice this guys goes to personal insults when he is hit with a a point he cant counter? I give it a few more posts before he starts attacking spelling and grammar as well.
Nothing to say about Lyria's threats...?
Well, you're consistently dishonest, I suppose. I'll give you that.
Lord knows I've done my honest best to give you some pointers on how to counter a ship I know how to fly, and which I know well how can be killed, but you're so determined to fail against it that, well, there's not much I can do.
I've given you methods that have worked in game, and you refuse to even try them, coming up with some theorycraft reason or more often just saying "that won't work" without even backing up your refusal to attempt something that I know from personal experience can work. I've even posted a CSM proposal to enhance other EW and make ECCM easier to use, which I note you haven't bothered to comment on. That's why I infer that you just want ECM gone - you're not interested in fixing it, you just don't like it. And you're surprised that I have lost any sympathy or respect for you?
I can't think of a reason to waste more time on you.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Troezar
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:21:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Finally, an honest falcon pilot. I have a nearly maxed falcon alt aswell for a good reason. And youre right, indeed would be more fun ways to implement ecm.
I've been on both ends of the fights and I'm all for any changes that make EVE more fun and don't require mandatory setups or ships to be used
Anyone with any good ideas on alternative attributes for ECM to target throw some ideas out, even stupid ones might work!
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:22:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
As I said, we'll see whos laughing when the nerf comes. I sure am laughing about the nano's for now.
Well, yeah... you're laughing because your race is already being boosted to beyond overpoweredness... and victory will be that much sweeter when there's no little annoying ship that might stop you from totally ****ing over any other pilot from another race.
-Liang
God almighty, you're a bitter, stupid little fool.
I've said several times that I'm right now training Amarr Cruiser 5.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:23:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Anyone else notice this guys goes to personal insults when he is hit with a a point he cant counter? I give it a few more posts before he starts attacking spelling and grammar as well.
Fun part is in a few months Ill be laughing at this guy and his crummy arguments when the nerf comes, just as I am laughing at the nano phags right now that were flaming me in the nano discussions about how I suck and nanos are fine.
I'll be laughing too, because in a few months I'll be a near-maxed T2 Amarr Cruiser pilot.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:26:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
As I said, we'll see whos laughing when the nerf comes. I sure am laughing about the nano's for now.
Well, yeah... you're laughing because your race is already being boosted to beyond overpoweredness... and victory will be that much sweeter when there's no little annoying ship that might stop you from totally ****ing over any other pilot from another race.
-Liang
Life is hard if you're not a part of the ruler race. The slave races must be kept at bay. Balance is soon restored in eve, dont you worry. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:27:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:43 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 17:02:26
Originally by: Malcanis
let's get this out into the open here: Lyria, Borat and Ignatious, and their ilk, don't want ECM ships in the game at all.
Wth are you talking about? Did we say anything about removing the other ecm boats? No we didnt. Stop putting words into our mouths or Ill put something else in yours.
Why are you even denying it? You know falcons are overpowered, everyone knows this. It is the same bullshit arguments all over again from the nano discussions. "bla bla you have 343258346 counters, use em".
Oh and about those bookmarks and getting rewarded for being a bookmark hoe as a falcon pilot: Guess what; CCP introduced WARP TO ZERO. CCP does not care for bookmark hoes getting their way.
Sweetcakes, the only thing you're capable of putting in anyone's mouth is a laugh, at your rather clumsy rhetoric. Now hush the threats because playing the hard man over the internet will make you look even sillier than convincing everyone you have no idea how to counter a shiptype that gets destroyed in numbers every day.
Anyone else notice this guys goes to personal insults when he is hit with a a point he cant counter? I give it a few more posts before he starts attacking spelling and grammar as well.
Nothing to say about Lyria's threats...?
Well, you're consistently dishonest, I suppose. I'll give you that.
Lord knows I've done my honest best to give you some pointers on how to counter a ship I know how to fly, and which I know well how can be killed, but you're so determined to fail against it that, well, there's not much I can do.
I've given you methods that have worked in game, and you refuse to even try them, coming up with some theorycraft reason or more often just saying "that won't work" without even backing up your refusal to attempt something that I know from personal experience can work. I've even posted a CSM proposal to enhance other EW and make ECCM easier to use, which I note you haven't bothered to comment on. That's why I infer that you just want ECM gone - you're not interested in fixing it, you just don't like it. And you're surprised that I have lost any sympathy or respect for you?
I can't think of a reason to waste more time on you.
Still sticking the promise route i see. Well, lets try this one more time. It doesn't matter how many time you quote my promise THE EFFECTIVE RANGE OF DAMPS IS NOT 150K. One more time THE EFFECTIVE RANGE OF DAMPS IS NOT I REPEAT IS NOT 150K, NOT ONE HUNDRED AND 50 KILOMETERS. I can't make it much more clear then this. Your just being thick now.
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kessah
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:35:00 -
[267]
Edited by: kessah on 31/07/2008 17:35:36 Lyria, Malcanis Linkage
Now, kiss and make up.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:36:00 -
[268]
Originally by: kessah Edited by: kessah on 31/07/2008 17:35:36 Lyria, Malcanis Linkage
Now, kiss and make up.
Your link fails. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
kessah
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:37:00 -
[269]
Edited by: kessah on 31/07/2008 17:37:29
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: kessah Edited by: kessah on 31/07/2008 17:35:36 Lyria, Malcanis Linkage
Now, kiss and make up.
Your link fails.
O rly? give it some breath time eh?
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:38:00 -
[270]
I dont get it. How are you having so much trouble with falcons?
I dont have the best of anything yet I can handle EWAR ships. The falcon cannot kill much or tank anything. In my snipoc (which always has an ECCM) I can wipe it out in less than 30 seconds and that is being generous.
I have also never come across a falcon in a fleet on fleet fight which was seperated. The reason being its such a soft target that its best defence is to try and mingle in with the crowd and hope to not get spotted.
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