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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:49:00 -
[1]
Originally by: dev blog
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
This point was the only one not actually addressed by the dev blog.
Discuss.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Robrina Brun
The Blueshift Cartel THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:53:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Robrina Brun on 30/07/2008 18:54:27 Adapt or die.
Am I doing it right?
A smaller, more agile group will always be able to outmaneuver a blob. They just won't be outmaneuvering missiles any longer.
Edit: Hint: Agility does not always mean being physically faster. If your group can respond to orders and adapt faster than your opponent, I'd say you were more agile.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:53:00 -
[3]
Guerrilla warfare is striking at targets where your enemys blob is not. You do not need to have a hac that goes 7000ms to do that.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:53:00 -
[4]
Recon, Cov Ops, Black Ops? DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale!
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES! |
Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:54:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Splagada on 30/07/2008 18:55:00 titan jumpbridge, and covert cynos? few groups can "blob" all sides of a group of systems ------
Tides of Silence |
TheG2
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:58:00 -
[6]
Yet the only counter nano pilots actually have to Blobs is Nano-blobs.
Discuss.
Oh wait, I'm actually going to include content in my post.
Blobbing occurs for a very simple reason. More people = more damage and more friendlies mean more targets for the enemy to shoot at that aren't you. There is safety in numbers, and hell, if it works, fun be damned, this game is about serious gaining of sovereignty right and precious moon minerals right?
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:59:00 -
[7]
too few places to decide on a battle. battle has to be in one place. if there was a way to spread out the blob itd work ------
Tides of Silence |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:01:00 -
[8]
So what I'm getting from thus thread so far is this:
Old 'n busted: fighting outnumbered
New hotness: running from blobs
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: TheG2 There is safety in numbers, and hell, if it works, fun be damned, this game is about serious gaining of sovereignty right and precious moon minerals right?
Yes, fun be damned this is serious business not just a game
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TheG2
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:02:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Synapse Archae So what I'm getting from thus thread so far is this:
Old 'n busted: fighting outnumbered
New hotness: running from blobs
No, what you're getting from this thread is nothing because you're being a pointless troll.
GOOD DAY SIR!
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:03:00 -
[11]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 30/07/2008 19:05:05
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: dev blog
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
This point was the only one not actually addressed by the dev blog.
Discuss.
Incorrect. Read my thread on Anti-blob tactics.
The only thing that killed all anti-blob tactics was Nano. Nano meant the entire blob can warp to as far as the fastest ship, thus making a mockery of tactics baised upon countering a clumsey blob. This forced people to use bigger blobs vs blobs since both sides would be on top of each other at the same time, removing any incentive for lean mean small fleets to "peel the onion" of the clumsey blob by using drivebys and revese bottleneck gatecamp tactics etc which work very very well vs clumsey blobs.
Nano going away will mean anti-blob tactics will return to the game now. This is excellent.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:05:00 -
[12]
Seriously if the only counter that the best trained and best equipped players have against a large group of noobs in bs is "Don't be there" then maybe we should take another look at game mechanics?
Training, Tactics, and Skill should allow you to fight outnumbered and win.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Synapse Archae So what I'm getting from thus thread so far is this:
Old 'n busted: fighting outnumbered
New hotness: running from blobs
In nanos you could at least try to pick off stragglers from a blob, or even harrass them knowing that you were relatively safe. Now your going to need to make sure that you are either sniping them fully aligned to warp out, or several jumps away.
The issue really isn't nanos (yes, they were broken at the extreme) but blobs. This round of nerfs just removed the one element that could fight the blobs. Expect ECM whines/nerfs next.
But always remember blob = more players = good for CCP
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Seriously if the only counter that the best trained and best equipped players have against a large group of noobs in bs is "Don't be there" then maybe we should take another look at game mechanics?
Training, Tactics, and Skill should allow you to fight outnumbered and win.
They do. Nano removed the tactics part of the equasion, since distance in the battlefield became a non issue thus forcing people to blob up. Nano nerf will result in anti-blob tactics from 2 years ago returning. Expect to see more 20 bs beating off 100bs clumsey blobs in the near future as tactics return to eve.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:08:00 -
[15]
And if you can't think of any way to counter a lumbering BS gang without ships traveling at 4000+ meters a second, you aren't thinking very hard. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:09:00 -
[16]
blobbing was the only thing against blobbing
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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TheG2
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: McDonALTs
Originally by: Synapse Archae Seriously if the only counter that the best trained and best equipped players have against a large group of noobs in bs is "Don't be there" then maybe we should take another look at game mechanics?
Training, Tactics, and Skill should allow you to fight outnumbered and win.
They do. Nano removed the tactics part of the equasion, since distance in the battlefield became a non issue thus forcing people to blob up. Nano nerf will result in anti-blob tactics from 2 years ago returning. Expect to see more 20 bs beating off 100bs clumsey blobs in the near future as tactics return to eve.
Actually, you're right on target.
Sniper BS's can actually be useful again as they won't have HAC's ontop of them within 30 seconds followed by a fleet warp right on top of them. Sure a blob can still have Interceptors to warp to, but a sniper ship will kill the ceptor before it gets within range.
Troll all you want OP, but its not going to change a thing, PVP will actually be enjoyable again.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: McDonALTs
They do. Nano removed the tactics part of the equasion, since distance in the battlefield became a non issue thus forcing people to blob up. Nano nerf will result in anti-blob tactics from 2 years ago returning. Expect to see more 20 bs beating off 100bs clumsey blobs in the near future as tactics return to eve.
I would consider 20BSes to be a blob just as 100 BSes are. Of course only buffoons aren't going to bring inities to warp to close distance, or someone in gang with sniper BMs for every gate they use.
We are certainly going to see a lot more BSes, that might be good as the fights will last longer.
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:16:00 -
[19]
Didnt nano caused blobbing to get worse? because you know... its not safe to go out in small groups espeically those not toteing a nuter battleship or the other not able to contribute enough damage strike groups.
New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister |
McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:19:00 -
[20]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 30/07/2008 19:19:25
Originally by: Qduhaf
Originally by: McDonALTs
They do. Nano removed the tactics part of the equasion, since distance in the battlefield became a non issue thus forcing people to blob up. Nano nerf will result in anti-blob tactics from 2 years ago returning. Expect to see more 20 bs beating off 100bs clumsey blobs in the near future as tactics return to eve.
I would consider 20BSes to be a blob just as 100 BSes are. Of course only buffoons aren't going to bring inities to warp to close distance, or someone in gang with sniper BMs for every gate they use.
We are certainly going to see a lot more BSes, that might be good as the fights will last longer.
Only bad thing with blob is lag. 20BS do not cause lag. 100bs blob causes lag is someone tries to bring another 100 to take them out.
I would rather see small fleets of 10-20 bs movign about space like they used to 2 years ago insted of 1,000man blobs that we get today (See MAX campaign superblob)
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 30/07/2008 19:18:08 Didnt nano caused blobbing to get worse? because you know... its not safe to go out in small groups espeically those not toteing a nuter battleship or the other not able to contribute enough damage strike groups. Running into any nano ship can spell doom for the whole group easily
No group safety causes blobs, it did with nanos and will even more without them.
To counter a small nano gang you really only needed 1 neut BS.
Everyone is focused on which side of the nano nerf side, while the real issue remains no effective way to fight the more is actually better mentality.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: McDonALTs
Only bad thing with blob is lag. 20BS do not cause lag. 100bs blob causes lag is someone tries to bring another 100 to take them out.
I would rather see small fleets of 10-20 bs movign about space like they used to 2 years ago insted of 1,000man blobs that we get today (See MAX campaign superblob)
you bring 10, i bring 20, you bring 50, i bring 100, you bring 200, etc.......
Without any limitations to the effectiveness of ships in huge groups the escalation cycle never ends
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:37:00 -
[23]
I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.
Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...
Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:38:00 -
[24]
again blobbing is the only effective against blobbing
that why we have blob warfare
havent heard of nano warfare
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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Schalac
Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:01:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Schalac on 31/07/2008 01:01:37 "Blobbing" as you call it is a real life war tactic that works very well. Why would I not want as many people as I can get on my side fighting with me? In the first week of basic training one of the war strategies you learn about is if your enemy has a squad you bring a platoon. If they have a platoon you bring a company, and so on and so on. You know what, it works very well in most circumstances. Don't hate the blob, but maybe look for more people to fight for you instead of against you.
You never go into battle unless you are sure you can win.
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Qduhaf
To counter a small nano gang you really only needed 1 neut BS.
Everyone is focused on which side of the nano nerf side, while the real issue remains no effective way to fight the more is actually better mentality.
Again you use 'counter' as in 'scare away', only things with which you can 'counter' nano as in 'blast ship to bits, pod and **** the frosen corpse' count And yes, that requires greater numbers; be it snipers, inty swarms or other nanoships.
_____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
NoOth3rDestiny
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:41:00 -
[27]
Several small groups harassing a blob as it moves can easily take out portions of it slowly shrinking it, there are always stragglers. As for attacking head on, you'd need to engage at your range and outside of theirs to take out a larger number of ships. That could mean camping some distance off a gate with sniper BS, but this means in low sec there is no scram/dis on the enemies, but when you primary targets you could take many out before they escape. In 0.0 bubble a gate camp at your sniper range and align, and let it rip, if the enemy somehow manages to make a move closer you can warp off.
As far as I can see from FW blobs, they often move slow, leave a few stragglers after the main group has warped due to slower ships, laggers and poor communications, which can be hit before they warp off if you setup an ambush. Facing a blob head on is a bad idea if your group is smaller, so as said by the devs, guerrilla tactics to either eliminate the blob slowly, take out some of the group, or lower it enough to be able to face it head on.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 02:02:00 -
[28]
I'm posting this in from the dev blog responses. It says exactly what I wanted to say.
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Rawne Karrde
An Tir Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.07.31 02:11:00 -
[29]
I fail to see how nano's helped defeat "blobs" when the enemy were bringing 40-60 of them in a gang together... oh wait thats a blob isn't it?
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.31 02:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Rawne Karrde I fail to see how nano's helped defeat "blobs" when the enemy were bringing 40-60 of them in a gang together... oh wait thats a blob isn't it?
your enemy is representative of the entire population i take it?
------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
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Eleanor DeAquitaine
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Posted - 2008.07.31 03:12:00 -
[31]
If you go test it, it's rather obvious that this patch isn't even INTENDED as a fix to nanos, it's intended as a fix to avoid dealing with their borked physics engine which apparently can't handle speeds over 6K.
That's why they are nerfing literally EVERYTHING. The end result is that nano fit ships will be just as godlike as they are now, because non speed fit ships will be FAR SLOWER AND LESS MANEUVERABLE than now!
If you ask me this is a fraud.
If 10K cruisers were a problem with speed, why did my Raven need to go from 144ms to 117? Why did my Crow, which is supposed to be a member of the fastest class of ship in EVE have to lose 40% of its speed? Why does my BS have to turn slower than an asteroid?
Too much nerf on that which didn't need it, which results in the end in too little nerf on the actual problem!
With this HUGE kick to the balls on speed and maneuverability across the board, people who nanofit will be even MORE powerful than before. They will just be running at 4-5K instead of 10K. Against opponents who lost half their align time and 1/3rd their speed.
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Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace
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Posted - 2008.07.31 03:14:00 -
[32]
You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post. |
gtcsellalt
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Posted - 2008.07.31 03:36:00 -
[33]
Edited by: gtcsellalt on 31/07/2008 03:36:11 ss
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kryptteacher
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Posted - 2008.07.31 03:57:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Eleanor DeAquitaine If you go test it, it's rather obvious that this patch isn't even INTENDED as a fix to nanos, it's intended as a fix to avoid dealing with their borked physics engine which apparently can't handle speeds over 6K.
That's why they are nerfing literally EVERYTHING. The end result is that nano fit ships will be just as godlike as they are now, because non speed fit ships will be FAR SLOWER AND LESS MANEUVERABLE than now!
If you ask me this is a fraud.
If 10K cruisers were a problem with speed, why did my Raven need to go from 144ms to 117? Why did my Crow, which is supposed to be a member of the fastest class of ship in EVE have to lose 40% of its speed? Why does my BS have to turn slower than an asteroid?
Too much nerf on that which didn't need it, which results in the end in too little nerf on the actual problem!
With this HUGE kick to the balls on speed and maneuverability across the board, people who nanofit will be even MORE powerful than before. They will just be running at 4-5K instead of 10K. Against opponents who lost half their align time and 1/3rd their speed.
i think nerfing it so the ships work within the physics limits is a good idea. other wise it is broke. did they nerf missiles/rockets as well?
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Slade Hoo
Amarr xPlaguex
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Posted - 2008.07.31 03:57:00 -
[35]
Originally by: HankMurphy
Originally by: Zeba Guerrilla warfare is striking at targets where your enemys blob is not. You do not need to have a hac that goes 7000ms to do that.
CCP Nozh is that you???
i guess not. but he is right anyway
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.31 04:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Synapse Archae I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.
Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...
Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.
Thats actually really easy. Its in most peoples nature to take the easiest path possible, with the least amount of risk.... regardless if they know its right or not.
What you are asking for is for CCP to change human nature.... CCP cant do that, so they are nerfing "the easiest path, with the least ammount of risk" instead. nano's.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 05:14:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 05:15:05
Originally by: Steel Tigeress
Originally by: Synapse Archae I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.
Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...
Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.
Thats actually really easy. Its in most peoples nature to take the easiest path possible, with the least amount of risk.... regardless if they know its right or not.
What you are asking for is for CCP to change human nature.... CCP cant do that, so they are nerfing "the easiest path, with the least ammount of risk" instead. nano's.
No, I'm actually asking CCP to make good reasons not to blob. Blobbing is the easiest path, with the least risk. Nano ships have huge risks. Every nano pilot I know is broke from replacing ridiculously costly ships. Nano pilots spend time actually TRAINING in their ships, and we pour huge amounts of SP into it as well. Its a gigantic risk to fly nano. We do it because otherwise in 0.0 you blob or be blobbed.
Blob is currently the easist path. CCP needs to introduce things that make blobbing more difficult, and make smaller gangs the easist path. You'd see nanos disappear pretty quickly, actually, as soon as we all realized we could have fun again for less than 250m per ship.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.07.31 05:28:00 -
[38]
Speed sure seemed to make blobs more popular actually.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:00:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 05:59:58
Originally by: Anubis Xian Speed sure seemed to make blobs more popular actually.
Who in the world are you, and who is "reavers corp"? Have you even been to 0.0?
Blobs have been popular since alliances first came together, years and years and years ago. They only get worse with time, as the big powerblocs get bigger, and CCP ads more game elements (poswar, cyno jammers, capital ships) to encourage blobs.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 05:15:05
Originally by: Steel Tigeress
Originally by: Synapse Archae I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.
Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...
Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.
Thats actually really easy. Its in most peoples nature to take the easiest path possible, with the least amount of risk.... regardless if they know its right or not.
What you are asking for is for CCP to change human nature.... CCP cant do that, so they are nerfing "the easiest path, with the least ammount of risk" instead. nano's.
No, I'm actually asking CCP to make good reasons not to blob. Blobbing is the easiest path, with the least risk. Nano ships have huge risks. Every nano pilot I know is broke from replacing ridiculously costly ships. Nano pilots spend time actually TRAINING in their ships, and we pour huge amounts of SP into it as well. Its a gigantic risk to fly nano. We do it because otherwise in 0.0 you blob or be blobbed.
Blob is currently the easist path. CCP needs to introduce things that make blobbing more difficult, and make smaller gangs the easist path. You'd see nanos disappear pretty quickly, actually, as soon as we all realized we could have fun again for less than 250m per ship.
I Agree that blob fights suck, with the slideshow graphics and such. And there does need to be somthing done about it.
But nano's wernt it. Like the previous poster said, Nano gangs promoted anyone not nanoing to blob up as it was the only defence.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:18:00 -
[41]
Quote:
I Agree that blob fights suck, with the slideshow graphics and such. And there does need to be somthing done about it.
But nano's wernt it. Like the previous poster said, Nano gangs promoted anyone not nanoing to blob up as it was the only defence.
So we should all just hunker down and accept PVP that is boring and soul-killing, and hope CCP comes up with something better? Who wants to put up with a crappy game when all fun alternatives are gone? Speed tanks are simultaneously one of the last fun mechanics, and one of the only counters to blobbing, and one of the few reasonable roaming tactics, and the risk vs reward isnt even broken. If anything, its too risky to fly nano. Nobody does it for the money, I can assure you of that. Every nano pilot I know is broke.
Take that away, and how many players is that "wait for something better (TRUST US!)" going to cost? Why should we put up with "blob online" while CCP thinks of something better?
Fix blobs.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Kage Psychodin
Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:41:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Kage Psychodin on 31/07/2008 06:43:09 Don't worry. when the real capital ship nerf thats a rehash and toned down of the super cap ship nerf that removes doomsdays, Blob online will start to dissipate quite quickly. Not from people leaving. The second capital ships once again become a "you bring it out for select encounters, not as your regular ship" measure, and slow aligning BSes become the typical top power combat ship and everyone feels the weight of slow aligning, non-cyno multi-system 20 jump trips again, with more vulnerable ships, people will start to fly other things. Likewise you will to.
The end to Nanoships and capships and blobs online is breaking them all one by one. everybody has to give a little power back.
(edited for two big typos.) Another one bites the dust. |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Kage Psychodin Edited by: Kage Psychodin on 31/07/2008 06:43:09 Don't worry. when the real capital ship nerf thats a rehash and toned down of the super cap ship nerf that removes doomsdays, Blob online will start to dissipate quite quickly. Not from people leaving. The second capital ships once again become a "you bring it out for select encounters, not as your regular ship" measure, and slow aligning BSes become the typical top power combat ship and everyone feels the weight of slow aligning, non-cyno multi-system 20 jump trips again, with more vulnerable ships, people will start to fly other things. Likewise you will to.
The end to Nanoships and capships and blobs online is breaking them all one by one. everybody has to give a little power back.
(edited for two big typos.)
Quoting another "just wait for crappy gameplay to get better" post.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Kage Psychodin
Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:48:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Quoting another "just wait for crappy gameplay to get better" post.
I may ask then what do you think should happen. You seem to complain, but then what is the real solution here that you seem to know in the back of your mind. Don't be afraid to say it. Another one bites the dust. |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:02:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Synapse Archae I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.
Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...
Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.
Because the Web is overpowered, that's why. Nobody wanted to get in webrange. AFs were pretty much useless and the only use of the Ceptor was it's cost-effectiveness.
HACs were king because they were able to remain outside webrange whilst dealing plenty of damage, often at speeds where turrets, missiles and drones were all rendered ineffective. Vagabonds were often going faster than a lot of Ceptors (particually the Crow and Taranis) and were able to eat them alive. If you could afford a Vaga and Polycarbs there was virtually no reason to fly an Inty.
Now, Speed got nerfed; yes, but Webs got nerfed much more. This is to encourage use of smaller ships (like, AFs and Inties) as well as closer-range fits that make fitting something resembling a tank a viable option. ...
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Napro
Caldari Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:15:00 -
[46]
fit a bomb launcher and go break up those blobs
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Kage Psychodin
Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:19:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Napro fit a bomb launcher and go break up those blobs
As a heavily caldari missile pilot and being the understanding of all things that go boom in the night, I bequeath to you a boot to the head. No. Seriously. have you seen those things? Not only is their signature radius so big that you can nearly instant lock them in a battleship, but they are so vulnerable they can be shot down with ease. the only chance for a bomb to get off, is in major lag.
AND then it barely SCRATCHES the tanks of a well tanked battleship, and even then it costs too much for a one shot wonder that wouldn't even kill a heavy assault ship with its base resistances for certain bombs. did I mention you're right there, and that in a few second you're going to be webbed, disrupted, ship popped and possibly podded by your own bomb? Another one bites the dust. |
Caldrion Dosto
Svea Rike
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:40:00 -
[48]
I Dont see how webs have been nerfed.
Everyone fit a web and a scrambler.
Now scramblers are going to shut dowm MWD¦s as well as scraming you... Thats fun..
To Nozh: How is Guerilla warfare against a larger oponent work if i can¦t scramble some one without being forced to stand still (due to mwd shutting of), There will be plenty of enemies i can¦t scramble at the same time, thus they will go at MWD speeds so i won¦t be able to get away even if i fit both mwd and an afterburner.
So conclusion: Large gangs will always win vs a guerilla force.
Blobbing online just became much much worse.
It will be much more cost effectibve to bring a BS then a Hac with these changes........
Slugfests here we go..... But the sad part is that the server will never ever gonna be able to handle it, way to go CCP.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:47:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 07:58:07 Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 07:57:20
Originally by: Kage Psychodin
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Quoting another "just wait for crappy gameplay to get better" post.
I may ask then what do you think should happen. You seem to complain, but then what is the real solution here that you seem to know in the back of your mind. Don't be afraid to say it.
Done:
1. Boost Assault frigates tank and speed, not enough to go faster or tackle better than inties but enough that they do WAY more damage and tank much better via bonuses. Consider a class of destroyers used for roaming as well, along with dictors.
2. Make bombs cheaper, easier to deploy (laser guided to a target maybe?) and higher damage. Also make bombers faster and warp farther so they can keep up with normal roaming gangs.
3. Completely rework sov warfare into objectives that get harder to fill the more people you put in one place. This cant be fit in a few lines so I won't try here.
4. Update black ops to make them more survivable, and perhaps increase the list of ships they can jump in.
5. If the high end of speed (6k and above, perhaps?)is still an issue we want to fix, then nerf just the snake implants (and related high end implants) plus boosters and t2 polycarbons. No one tops 3k without those unless they are in an inty, and thats by design anyway.
Those will first add viable options for guerilla warfare (AFs and destroyer groups, and black ops/recons), and second they will place penalties on having all your eggs in one slow moving fleet-basket (bombs, leaving pos infrastructure open to attack).
There will be more diversity in roamers, and nanos will become just another tactic, when there are fewer blobs and more (cheaper!) options for roaming. As a bonus, the bombs might actually be made useful against the nanos.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:15:00 -
[50]
Go back to wow |
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Joe Starbreaker
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:30:00 -
[51]
I think it is time for a stealth bomber Bomb boost, because that could be guerilla if ever there were guerillas.
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:34:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Zeba Guerrilla warfare is striking at targets where your enemys blob is not. You do not need to have a hac that goes 7000ms to do that.
Well, for one thing, you will need a fast ship to approach and tackle a target unless you want to reduce PVP to gatecamping. Then you need to be able to move quickly between systems in order not to alert the enemy and give him time to prepare.
So either you need a bunch of frigs with you always (then you might as well replace nano gangs with frig gangs, because noone wants to be the tackler guy who deals no damage and pops first), or Guerilla warfare is over, unless you think that hot dropping should replace nano gangs (=> cyno jammers).
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:34:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 05:59:58
Originally by: Anubis Xian Speed sure seemed to make blobs more popular actually.
Who in the world are you
He is Anubis Xian, 6th incarnation of my ingame main since 2004.
Quote: , and who is "reavers corp"?
Reavers is just a corporation I created over 4 years ago, that I've been holding for the period of time that I decide pvp on the alliance level is too annoying to bother with anymore. Guess that time has come and gone.
Quote: Have you even been to 0.0?
I've been to regions when they were owned by alliances that ceased to exist before the IGA feature even came into being. My first ever foray into 0.0 space involved running 3 SA blockades, 2 CA blockades, and giggling at a Xetic fleet made up of mostly cruisers all while flying a Stabber.
Quote: Blobs have been popular since alliances first came together, years and years and years ago.
I know this.
Quote: They only get worse with time, as the big powerblocs get bigger, and CCP ads more game elements (poswar, cyno jammers, capital ships) to encourage blobs.
The blobs expand to fill the capacity of the technology. If the server can handle 300, why bring only 100?
The way to break up blobs has nothing to do with speed, it has to do with collision and line of fire mechanics.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Victor Valka
Caldari Kissaki Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:37:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Goes to the sig, this wisdom of the modern age.!
Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:40:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker I think it is time for a stealth bomber Bomb boost, because that could be guerilla if ever there were guerillas.
Combine them in to a group with recons and black ops and you already have a viable guerilla force.
From the Wiki Definition: "Guerrilla tactics are based on intelligence, ambush, deception, sabotage, and espionage"
Does that sound like nano-ships, or something else?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Victor Valka
Caldari Kissaki Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:45:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker I think it is time for a stealth bomber Bomb boost, because that could be guerilla if ever there were guerillas.
Combine them in to a group with recons and black ops and you already have a viable guerilla force.
From the Wiki Definition: "Guerrilla tactics are based on intelligence, ambush, deception, sabotage, and espionage"
Does that sound like nano-ships, or something else?
We're certainly lacking in intelligence around here.
Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 09:14:00 -
[57]
The real problem is the attitude of Nano Pilots.
I have seen some real wrong assumptions, as PvPler are only Nano-Pilots and Carebears fly everything else. Right?
Because people spend training and ISK to become a Nano***, all those who spend even more training and lots of ISK to become an excellent BS Pilot or something other then Nano-should be screwed right?
I would like to ask the above poster to go back to Counterstrike, because you never really got, what eve was about. Yes it is a PvP Game, but it is not Counterstrike in space.
The real problem is, that Nano Pilots look great on killboards. They are expensive, but give you great stats on killboard, because you can in most cases easily run away.
Is it that difficult, you can still fight, you can still win against superior numbers by using tactics. An overheated MWD and a nanoed-Butt does not equal tactics. You will have to think a bit more about your ship, your setups and what ships to bring, since the cookie cutter nano is nerfed.
PvP will be a bit more like in 2005/2006 without ridiculous speeds and I welcome this change.
Enjoy EVE, quit whining or GTFO.
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Siddy
Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.31 09:36:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
PvP will be a bit more like in 2005/2006 without ridiculous speeds and I welcome this change.
Enjoy EVE, quit whining or GTFO.
lol wut?
i remeber back in 2005, my ferox went 5km/s
and was only good BC because it used to spamm missiles from the speeds.
Altho, i agree, speed nerf was long overdue since introduction of rigs and t2 modules.
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Acidictadpole
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:08:00 -
[59]
Guerilla tactics isn't about attacking a large fleet and being able to take it down just because your faster. That's not what it is..
Guerilla tactics is engaging a smaller force quickly before the bigger force can arrive to help. Behind enemy lines or taking stragglers. You all believe that 5 HACs engaging 10 battleships and getting kills is what guerilla warfare is.. well you're WRONG.
As per real-life, the counter to the blob is either attrition or a bigger blob. There will never be a more effective means than that. It's sad but its true. Nanoing was never an effective counter to a blob because in which case you'd still have a blob, just with different shiptypes (nano blob).
So, as some of you people have told those against nano previously. Adapt. If you don't you will die. There are plenty of new playstyles opening up and you'd do well to actually find out what they are instead of whining on the forums.
Don't get scammed |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:13:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Siddy
lol wut?
i remeber back in 2005, my ferox went 5km/s
and was only good BC because it used to spamm missiles from the speeds.
Altho, i agree, speed nerf was long overdue since introduction of rigs and t2 modules.
I admit, I joined EVE late in 05. I heard about the dual MWD setups but they had already been hit by the nerfbat, when I joined.
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Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:53:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 31/07/2008 10:53:38 I heard that fire extinguishers and extreme temperatures were most effective against blobs.
Anyone understanding that reference knows their B-Movies well.
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:07:00 -
[62]
that movie was so B ! :p ------
Tides of Silence |
Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:16:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Its about how fast you go relative to TRACKING and relative to MISSILES. Its a speed TANK.
Tanking damage means absorbing it, not making your ship so fast that nothing can ever hit it. _________________________________________________________
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sneakybustard
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:35:00 -
[64]
WAAH!
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ThroatWarbler Mangrove
Righteous-Indignation Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:49:00 -
[65]
I haven't read all this thread, but the best tactic against nano-gangs I've seen was to field a blob of relatively cheap interceptors, along with cheapy speed-fit T1 cruisers for DPS. Use the 'ceptors to get webs and points, by the time the webbing inties go down (which they will pretty quick) the T1 cruisers will have killed at least one nano ship, whose isk value will more than make up for 10-20 losses on their own side, especially if you pod the pilot and cost him his expensive implants.
Of course, none of this requires much in the way of tactics, just blobbing with cheap ships. In other words, as others have said, the best way to counter nano is to blob.
Nano gangs have always been about killboard padding, easy kills and easy escape. As a result, interesting stuff like black ops gangs and other covert stuff has largely been ignored in favour of the lowest-common-denominator. Of course, there will always be nano-acolytes who decry change, but they're just like those people who moaning when John Carmack tried to remove strafe jumping from Quake 3. Adapt and change, don't get stuck in your ways.
Of course, before everyone gets too excited, I should add that all the above is IMHO.
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Cpt Angus
Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:50:00 -
[66]
"Speed was the only counter to blobbing"
What about the ever present nano speed blob then? The above makes is way to vague. Bones heal and chicks dig scars
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kyrv
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:02:00 -
[67]
Tbh ppl are too scared to lose a over priced cruiser that is designed for running away, as for blobs on a smaller scale hac users are blobs picking and choosing there targets or running.
I can only hope for cheaper hacs I have always been in disbelief at the financial risk people play this game with cheaper alturnatives such as a battleship with full fittings you lose what 20million? and I see no difference what 20km/s to 200m/s with range imho.
Greef about it trash the hac market into submission
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Highwind Cid
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:56:00 -
[68]
Fight fire with fire? Blob them back into the depths.
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Highwind Cid Fight fire with fire? Blob them back into the depths.
This.
You nano***s need to get some friends.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Acidictadpole Guerilla tactics isn't about attacking a large fleet and being able to take it down just because your faster. That's not what it is..
Guerilla tactics is engaging a smaller force quickly before the bigger force can arrive to help. Behind enemy lines or taking stragglers. You all believe that 5 HACs engaging 10 battleships and getting kills is what guerilla warfare is.. well you're WRONG.
As per real-life, the counter to the blob is either attrition or a bigger blob. There will never be a more effective means than that. It's sad but its true. Nanoing was never an effective counter to a blob because in which case you'd still have a blob, just with different shiptypes (nano blob).
So, as some of you people have told those against nano previously. Adapt. If you don't you will die. There are plenty of new playstyles opening up and you'd do well to actually find out what they are instead of whining on the forums.
Logic and common sense in a Nano whine thread?? Outrageous!
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:21:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: Acidictadpole Guerilla tactics isn't about attacking a large fleet and being able to take it down just because your faster. That's not what it is..
Guerilla tactics is engaging a smaller force quickly before the bigger force can arrive to help. Behind enemy lines or taking stragglers. You all believe that 5 HACs engaging 10 battleships and getting kills is what guerilla warfare is.. well you're WRONG.
As per real-life, the counter to the blob is either attrition or a bigger blob. There will never be a more effective means than that. It's sad but its true. Nanoing was never an effective counter to a blob because in which case you'd still have a blob, just with different shiptypes (nano blob).
So, as some of you people have told those against nano previously. Adapt. If you don't you will die. There are plenty of new playstyles opening up and you'd do well to actually find out what they are instead of whining on the forums.
Logic and common sense in a Nano whine thread?? Outrageous!
The End is nigh!
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Phil Exon
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:31:00 -
[72]
Nano-warfare is fun. People who are unable to learn how to deal with it need to suck it. Nanoes add great diversity to the gameplay and as suggested before is the only way to deal with blobbing. Don't nerf anything!
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:35:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Phil Exon Nano-warfare is fun. People who are unable to learn how to deal with it need to suck it. Nanoes add great diversity to the gameplay and as suggested before is the only way to deal with blobbing. Don't nerf anything!
Nanos don't add anything to the game, unless you nano it up too, in which case you are further contributing to the lack of variety.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Mysdora
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:13:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Mysdora on 31/07/2008 18:14:36
Originally by: Robrina Brun Adapt or die.
Nanos are the result of adaptation. It's the conventional blobs that should now adapt to countering nanos, but I guess it's easier to whine to CCP than bring a rapier. It's a real shame that a major tactical aspect of pvp is getting butchered like this, and along with it the ability of small independent corps like ours to enjoy 0.0 pvp without being immediately out-blobbed and camped in somewhere.
Originally by: Anubis Xian Nanos don't add anything to the game, unless you nano it up too, in which case you are further contributing to the lack of variety.
Yeah, why don't we all just fly the same standard issue ibis so noone has to worry about countering any setups
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:28:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Acidictadpole Guerilla tactics is about attacking a overwhelming large and unwieldingly stupid fleet and being able to take it down ships because of speed, agility, tactics thru coordination and execution
fixed that for you.
pro tip: speed is not bad, nor the only thing in eve, but it is good for roaming and blobs
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:38:00 -
[76]
Wow, I'm stunned by the number of people who actually WANT to play "Blob Online" in this thread.
Seriously. Its boring, its laggy, it needs so little skill. Makes me ashamed to be in the same thread.
"Just avoid blobs" and "Fight blobs with other blobs" boils down to "Just don't have any fun, and like it."
F*** that.
Eve needs a viable non-blob counter. Numbers alone should not decide engagements.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:43:00 -
[77]
Im surpirsed by all the whiney nanopilots unhappy that nano is getting nerfed. You guys where the reason blobs happened. You are also the reason why anti-blob tactics dissapeared overnight.
I would tell you to go back to Team Fortress 2, but they also nerfed teh backburner in it so you are on shakey ground!
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Skipdog
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Posted - 2008.07.31 19:30:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Skipdog on 31/07/2008 19:31:17
Originally by: Synapse Archae Wow, I'm stunned by the number of people who actually WANT to play "Blob Online" in this thread.
Seriously. Its boring, its laggy, it needs so little skill. Makes me ashamed to be in the same thread.
"Just avoid blobs" and "Fight blobs with other blobs" boils down to "Just don't have any fun, and like it."
F*** that.
Eve needs a viable non-blob counter. Numbers alone should not decide engagements.
So, there should be ships that allow small gangs of ships to compete with and harass much larger gangs and not expect to take losses?
What reason would there be to not fly the ship that lets one accomplish such a task?
To me, that seems like the primary issue that is being dealt with.
What about the theory that the reason blobs were so necessary, were due to the threat of small nano gangs which also made small gangs of non-nano ships much less desirable?
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Pharos Dei
Amarr Cruoris Seraphim
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Posted - 2008.07.31 19:58:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Skipdog Edited by: Skipdog on 31/07/2008 19:31:17
Originally by: Synapse Archae Wow, I'm stunned by the number of people who actually WANT to play "Blob Online" in this thread.
Seriously. Its boring, its laggy, it needs so little skill. Makes me ashamed to be in the same thread.
"Just avoid blobs" and "Fight blobs with other blobs" boils down to "Just don't have any fun, and like it."
F*** that.
Eve needs a viable non-blob counter. Numbers alone should not decide engagements.
So, there should be ships that allow small gangs of ships to compete with and harass much larger gangs and not expect to take losses?
What reason would there be to not fly the ship that lets one accomplish such a task?
To me, that seems like the primary issue that is being dealt with.
What about the theory that the reason blobs were so necessary, were due to the threat of small nano gangs which also made small gangs of non-nano ships much less desirable?
no, the point is not to have nberships that can do everything better than anything, the point is to have a viable counter to blob, and since this counter would by definition be lame the only reasonable solution would be to nerf blobs...
and to the idiot argument that blobs were merely a response to nano, as someone who has been there from the start let me tell you; you are mistaken and frankly a little ******ed as well...
nano was/is indeed lame, it is in many regards overpowered, though tbh some primal forms of intelligence lets you counter it easily..., but the problem in eve pvp is not nano, it never has been...
its BLOB, always has been, and im afraid always will be since CCP has the genius habit of curing a patients headaches by severing a leg... and then a year later wondering that the patients headache persists and they move on to cut off another limb... etc...
NERF Nano, but ****ing NERF BLOBS ffs... (btw, carriers and Motherships should be burned badly too...)
<center> ... </center> |
Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 20:19:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Stab Wounds on 31/07/2008 20:19:47
Originally by: Synapse Archae Wow, I'm stunned by the number of people who actually WANT to play "Blob Online" in this thread.
Seriously. Its boring, its laggy, it needs so little skill. Makes me ashamed to be in the same thread.
"Just avoid blobs" and "Fight blobs with other blobs" boils down to "Just don't have any fun, and like it."
F*** that.
Eve needs a viable non-blob counter. Numbers alone should not decide engagements.
i don't knows about you but i have a lot of fun in large fleets it can get a little laggy but the killing is good
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Mysdora
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 20:28:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Skipdog So, there should be ships that allow small gangs of ships to compete with and harass much larger gangs and not expect to take losses?
If the larger gang completely ignores a major aspect of pvp, then yes - they should get owned by the smaller gang that's relying on that aspect.
Originally by: Skipdog To me, that seems like the primary issue that is being dealt with.
The primary issue is that most fleets make zero effort to counter nanos. The fix is not to kill nanos - the fix is for people to swap out a few of their cookie cutter fleet battleships for support.
Originally by: Skipdog What about the theory that the reason blobs were so necessary, were due to the threat of small nano gangs which also made small gangs of non-nano ships much less desirable?
So blobs can't touch nanos, yet nanos are the reason for blobs...? I'm inclined to believe that blobbing has very little to do with nanos, and very much to do with trying to gain every advantage over the opponent - whatever they may be flying. eXceed used to occasionally fly RR battleship gangs to hostile territory before nanoing got really commonplace, and sure enough got blobbed by carriers and whatnot.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 21:45:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 21:47:39
Originally by: Stab Wounds
i don't knows about you but i have a lot of fun in large fleets it can get a little laggy but the killing is good
Its boring, stultifying and slow. Battleships and battlecruisers are already too slow to move long distances to enemy territory without taking an hour and a half to do it. Most of the roaming pilots I know don't have an hour and a half just to get into the right area for a possible fight. That much prep for no action is unacceptable for a game you're supposed to enjoy. Once there, you have to find and kill someone. Hostiles in your way have plenty of time to get out of the way and dock minutes before you arrive. Any target you do meet, its just bulldoze...no challenge, just lock primary/secondary and hit all your F-keys. Its good for people early into PVP, but veterans demand more of a challenge, and find themselves in smaller tactical groups pretty quickly.
Speed and nano ships allow all kinds of skill and tactics to come into play, such as using increased ewar to hold down specific targets, watching the enemy fleet's composition and judging througout the fight if you're still in a safe position to continue engaging. With a smaller group, you can also be more careful and specific about the ships people can bring, rather than demanding a number of "warm bodies" to press f1-f8. Included in this is the number of points, number and range of tracking disruptors, number of damps, number of webs, and the general weapon range of the group as a whole (short vs midrange). All of that affects who you attack in a nano gang and how you attack them. In a larger fleet you just can't exercise that level of oversight, or the fleet never leaves the base. I've seen it tried and failed so many times.
After 3 years of trying to enjoy large fleets, you too will learn to dislike it. |
McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:35:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Battleships and battlecruisers are already too slow to move long distances to enemy territory without taking an hour and a half to do it.
Warp to zero. A BS that takes 13 seconds (10 seconds max if you cycle MWD for instawarp) to align and a nanoship that takes 3 seconds to align mean that each warp is 10 seconds faster.
So 60 jumps is 600 seconds which is a grand total of 10 minutes extra to move over a 60 jumps.
Remember you can warp to zero.
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Spurty
Caldari Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:00:00 -
[84]
Originally by: McDonALTs Remember you can warp to zero.
Well done to this man. BS are actually fun to fly as well if you have a clue.
On Sisi a nano-gang CAN escape a gate camp. No, it can't fight it and expect to win vs equally skilled opponents fit to deal with them though.
-- Two prostitutes standing on a street corner. One says to the other, "Have you ever been picked up by the fuzz?" The other replies, "No, but I've been swung around by the ****!" |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:31:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 23:32:04
Originally by: McDonALTs
Originally by: Synapse Archae Battleships and battlecruisers are already too slow to move long distances to enemy territory without taking an hour and a half to do it.
Warp to zero. A BS that takes 13 seconds (10 seconds max if you cycle MWD for instawarp) to align and a nanoship that takes 3 seconds to align mean that each warp is 10 seconds faster.
So 60 jumps is 600 seconds which is a grand total of 10 minutes extra to move over a 60 jumps.
Remember you can warp to zero.
Align time isn't even close to the majority of travel time. Remember there is warp speed (varies by ship class, warp time is the actual majority of travel time), and the time it takes to load the next system (depends on your machine, and on the load of other systems on the node)
Rather than trying to make up numbers on the spot, go get a few dozen friends, put them in BS (Especially plated ones, so you can withstand the inevitable DD when you arrive from the defenders) and see how long it takes you to do 60 jumps.
Really, I dare you. It will take hours, not even counting the time it takes you to organize your two dozen friends, if you can do that at all.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Sinnbad Mayhem
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:04:00 -
[86]
Good luck when you hit a bubble doing 800m/s S&M |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:16:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem Good luck when you hit a bubble doing 800m/s
Better 800 than what I'm hearing about the newly nerfed BSs. The Fenrir freighter is actually faster I hear.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Spurty
Caldari Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.01 01:16:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Better 800 than what I'm hearing about the newly nerfed BSs. The Fenrir freighter is actually faster I hear.
God only knows who you are listening too, but Elvis is dead and Santa doesn't really exist!
Bubbles are certainly going to make the fight happen there if you are in a BS. Come prepared or don't bother to undock. -- Two prostitutes standing on a street corner. One says to the other, "Have you ever been picked up by the fuzz?" The other replies, "No, but I've been swung around by the ****!" |
ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.08.01 01:35:00 -
[89]
HAHHAHAH what the hell kind of logic is that?!?!?! Someone apparently doesn't know what Guerrilla warfare means.
HERE, heres a deffinition so that maybe some day you can understand it.
guer+ril+la or gue+ril+la (g-rl) n. A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.
There is nothing in that definition that suggest that you be immune to attack. Nothing about being immune to specific forms of attack. A gurilla does not gain an immunity to being blown up by a RL missile, it just means hes not part of a huge force sitting out in the open. Theres nothing in there saying they get a "dodge bonus" against hot lead.
What you and all of the other nano users have wanted was "immunity" to all forms of attack because you dumped X million isk into your ship. They then hide behind "playing smart" when all they did was cut and paste someone else's config.
Also I have seen nano blobs so the idea that its the "anti" blob, as though it some how regulates the numbers you can bring against said blob, is all wrong. It was always about being immune, nothing to do with guerilla warfare. Read a history book FFS.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.08.01 01:38:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 31/07/2008 10:53:38 I heard that fire extinguishers and extreme temperatures were most effective against blobs.
Anyone understanding that reference knows their B-Movies well.
Elvira back then had the most amazing rack on TV. Wait....maybe shes the reason I'm into pale chicks with big racks and love it when they wear all black. I loved the blob movie....wow.... what a breakthrough. man i miss the 80s back when chicks with big racks were allowed on tv all the time.
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diabolic clone
Amarr Anomaly Collective
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Posted - 2008.08.01 01:39:00 -
[91]
This could well be a decent stealth boost to black ops., depending on what the CSM has or is talking about doing in addition to them since it was on their agenda at one point.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.01 01:43:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/08/2008 01:44:29 Guerilla warfare isn't fighting larger forces and running away when it gets too hot. It's avoiding superior (either numerically or qualitatively) forces and engaging weaker ones via suprise/etc.
In EvE terms, it means that a nanogang (or nanoblob which is often the case) engaging conventional blobs bigger then them and then retreating if it gets too hot isn't guerilla warfare.
Guerilla warfare, in EvE terms, would be flying in a smaller, more mobile (read: inties/etc) gang and ganking ratters/smaller gangs and getting out before the blob actually arrives. It doesn't mean you should never sustain losses either.
Of course, you can just decide to rewrite the dictionary and claim CCP are breaking your definiton of guerilla warfare, but that's hardly a valid argument now.
I mean, we can argue HAC balance, but saying that guerilla warfare is dead and then claiming guerilla warfare is engaging someone's main forces and then running away when it gets ugly is a silly concept.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Spike Hammer
Gravis Corp Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:13:00 -
[93]
There was pvp before nano's and there will pvp without them.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:14:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Guerilla warfare isn't fighting larger forces and running away when it gets too hot. It's avoiding superior (either numerically or qualitatively) forces and engaging weaker ones via suprise/etc.
In eve this is the same thing. In eve you cannot just avoid the enemy. Stargates create chokepoints, particularly in 0.0. Otherwise the blob just camps the chokepoint into their systems, and you go home and dock. End of day.
If you can't get through a blob with a good chance of living, there is no guerilla warfare. You'll just be camped in and logoffski/death will become your choices. Nobody here wants to play that game.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Xtro 2
Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:15:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Siddy
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
PvP will be a bit more like in 2005/2006 without ridiculous speeds and I welcome this change.
Enjoy EVE, quit whining or GTFO.
lol wut?
i remeber back in 2005, my ferox went 5km/s
and was only good BC because it used to spamm missiles from the speeds.
Altho, i agree, speed nerf was long overdue since introduction of rigs and t2 modules.
im pretty sure you used to pilot typhoons at higher speeds b4 that time?
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.08.01 09:10:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 23:32:04
Originally by: McDonALTs
Originally by: Synapse Archae Battleships and battlecruisers are already too slow to move long distances to enemy territory without taking an hour and a half to do it.
Warp to zero. A BS that takes 13 seconds (10 seconds max if you cycle MWD for instawarp) to align and a nanoship that takes 3 seconds to align mean that each warp is 10 seconds faster.
So 60 jumps is 600 seconds which is a grand total of 10 minutes extra to move over a 60 jumps.
Remember you can warp to zero.
Align time isn't even close to the majority of travel time. Remember there is warp speed (varies by ship class, warp time is the actual majority of travel time), and the time it takes to load the next system (depends on your machine, and on the load of other systems on the node)
Rather than trying to make up numbers on the spot, go get a few dozen friends, put them in BS (Especially plated ones, so you can withstand the inevitable DD when you arrive from the defenders) and see how long it takes you to do 60 jumps.
Really, I dare you. It will take hours, not even counting the time it takes you to organize your two dozen friends, if you can do that at all.
Nano Zealot warps at 3au/sec BS warps at 3au/sec
I fail to see what, other than around 10 seconds more align time, is going to turn a extra 10 minutes from 60 jumps into "Hours" as you state. DD has nothing to do with flyng a nanoship since the best way to kill nanogang is with a nice laggy DD. The problem with nanogangs is taclking them. We got to the stage where nano-zealot would jump in with you and MWD 100km away by the time you lock him in a sensor boosted rapier and then nano zealot would snipe you with heavy beams. This and other pathetic nano tactics was destroying eve. CCP recognised this and fixed it.
Rules of Balace 1. Balance stuff on what people actually do and ignore what people "SAY" they do. 2. Ignore all "doom and gloom" predictions people make 3. Focus only on hard real data and ignore made up stuff on forums.
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Atrei Capital
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Posted - 2008.08.01 09:29:00 -
[97]
ITT:
Guerrilla warfare apparently means engaging a superior force, directly, but running fast enough to dodge bullets so a few ships can fight a superior force. It's balanced because obviously those non nano pilots are noobs, and speed tanking means you're the elite flyers of internet spaceships.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.08.01 10:26:00 -
[98]
Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 01/08/2008 10:29:08 No no no no no no no.
I'm not going to read the comments, because even if someone else has pointed this out, it needs to be reinforced: preferably involving ink, sharp needles, and the foreheads of anyone who thinks otherwise.
THE BLOB IS NOT A SWARM OF SHIPS IN CLOSE PROXIMITY.
THE BLOB IS A HUGE NUMBER OF SHIPS IN THE SAME GRID.
If you think differently, think of this: 1 million ships orbitting a gate at 250km. As spread out as you can get but still be in the same grid (possibly, but that's a different matter). But those 1 million ships still need to update each other on where everyone else is.
TO FIGHT THE BLOB YOU NEED TO REMOVE SHIPS FROM THE GRID.
That's the core philosophy that everyone should be thinking of. All these ideas of new ships, increasing grid size, bombs are nonsense, rubbish, and snake-oil, because they don't remove ships from the grid. The only things that can do that are DPS, or this ships not being there in the first place.
DO NOT CONFUSE A BLOB WITH A SWARM.
EDIT: Font size to really get the point accross. This may be the only time I resort to such tactics, but in this case they are necessary.
-- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:24:00 -
[99]
#What a BS post, i remember reading this crap last time they messed about with nanos, such whining babies we have here, OP fails bigtime the whiney bastard.
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Furb Killer
Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:33:00 -
[100]
Blobs are broken, that doesnt make nanos less broken. Give more reasons not to fight in a blob. Just like in FW make sov things more depend on timer based objectives than the required time being inversely proportional with the ammount of dps you bring.
More numbers in a fight will always be better, it doesnt make sense that it isnt better. You just need to give people a reason to split up.
The problem with anti blob mechanics in general is that if you want to make an anti blob weapon, it should be effective against a large number of ships, but relative pointless against a few ships. Bombs would be the closest thing that can do that when they would be buffed. Nanos arent the holy grail of anti blob solutions. Yes, nanos can be used to counter a much larger blob. However that same nano group will also whipe out a small conventional gang, killing small gang and solo warfare unless they are nanod too.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:43:00 -
[101]
The Millennium Falcon was a Nanoship, but yet I dont recall seeing any SSDs running laps around Hoth.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:56:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Anubis Xian The Millennium Falcon was a Nanoship, but yet I dont recall seeing any SSDs running laps around Hoth.
Naaah… The MF was more like a blockade runner with one too many hypervelocity opt rigs fitted.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.01 12:32:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Furb Killer Yes, nanos can be used to counter a much larger blob. However that same nano group will also whipe out a small conventional gang, killing small gang and solo warfare unless they are nanod too.
This. I see nanoblobs fairly often; and they're much harder to get away from then ordinary blobs which really nerfs soloing/small gang in conventional (non-nano) ships.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.08.01 13:32:00 -
[104]
you don't solve a problem by allowing another problem to exist..
speed nerf is the best thing happened to eve in years, so STFU ... the game is so dead because of idiots that misuse mechanics and did this in the start, most of all ccp's incompatence to actually do something against the problem is the main reason it have gone so far. ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:30:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Anubis Xian The Millennium Falcon was a Nanoship, but yet I dont recall seeing any SSDs running laps around Hoth.
Naaah… The MF was more like a blockade runner with one too many hypervelocity opt rigs fitted.
Hmm, good point...perhaps the Suncrusher qualifies then. Too fast and invincible lol.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:12:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: Cpt Branko Guerilla warfare isn't fighting larger forces and running away when it gets too hot. It's avoiding superior (either numerically or qualitatively) forces and engaging weaker ones via suprise/etc.
In eve this is the same thing. In eve you cannot just avoid the enemy. Stargates create chokepoints, particularly in 0.0. Otherwise the blob just camps the chokepoint into their systems, and you go home and dock. End of day.
If you can't get through a blob with a good chance of living, there is no guerilla warfare. You'll just be camped in and logoffski/death will become your choices. Nobody here wants to play that game.
And this old hackneyed argument is, of course, incorrect.
There are multiple ways to attack most every constellation in EVE 0.0. True, you may have to travel a bit to get into the correct area to attack from an advantageous positon, but far from impossible.
The gurilla fighter is not, as a general rule, and olympic sprinter. They tend to be patient, to have gathered accurate and up to date intel on their potential target. manuver into the correct position undetected, hit hard and then retreat along an intelligently thought out line of retreat using effective scouting all throughout the process.
This process does indeed work in EVE... if your FC's and the rest of your team are well skilled.
If you are not well skilled, but have a lot of money, the current nano gangs are of course preferable.
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:19:00 -
[107]
The power of nanos, imo, wasn't ever really that they could avoid drones or missiles. It was that they could pick their fights so well and the few things faster (EASs, inties) are complete cannon fodder for a HAC.
The big change that's really happening here I think is a transition from T2 cruisers to T2 frigs. I know it's sad to see speed fit cruisers get hacked so hard but change is the way of things and it opens up frigate speed fit options.
Honestly, I'm very much looking forward to seeing speed fit frigs tearing it up. Consider this: it looks like AFs are going to be going similar speeds to the nano HACs of today. With sigs around 1/4 that of cruisers, they'll be about 4x harder to put turret damage on than a HAC at that speed... that's no small deal.
The real big change I see is in missile boats, they'll be able to hit those AFs for damage where they're mostly ineffective against nanos now. Of course, speed fits haven't ever had trouble running from caldari boats and that's not likely to change. If you think about that though, is it really so bad that caldari get a bit of a boost for pvp pew pew? (I don't fly any caldari boats, fyi)
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:20:00 -
[108]
Ultimately, it was never intended for cruiser sized ships to run faster than missiles targeted for cruiser sized vessels. You can still speed tank, only now like every other type of tank you take some damage (still heavily reduced), as opposed to taking no damage at all.
All this crying about 'But...but I can actually get hit now!!! WTF!!' is really ******ed. Relax with the melodramatics.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:41:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 01/08/2008 20:43:14
Originally by: Ranger 1 There are multiple ways to attack most every constellation in EVE 0.0. True, you may have to travel a bit to get into the correct area to attack from an advantageous positon, but far from impossible.
The gurilla fighter is not, as a general rule, and olympic sprinter. They tend to be patient, to have gathered accurate and up to date intel on their potential target. manuver into the correct position undetected, hit hard and then retreat along an intelligently thought out line of retreat using effective scouting all throughout the process.
Go around? You mean like if you're trying to get into fountain, but Y-2 is blobbed, the 4 region, 50+ jump roundtrip is acceptable? I'm realy surprised to hear this from a Morsus Mihi player. You of anyone should know that tribute is a big line of chokepoints, and thats why you frequently put large bubbles all over it. Morsus gets a bigger benefit from the lack of alternate routes than most alliances.
Your second part, seeing how easy it is for defenders to block the line of retreat with a blob, boils down to cloak + logoffski. No one wants that style of play.
Even in pure, where there were 3-4 routes out of our home system, as a defending FC I could have a blob in front of a retreating gang at chokepoints anywhere within 7 jumps or so, thanks to jumpbridges, before even a fleeing nano gang got there. 0.0 is and has always been ruled by controlling chokepoints.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.08.17 14:27:00 -
[110]
the counter to blobbing is goon Trashed sig, Shark was here |
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