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Faife
Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:18:00 -
[1]
the famous codinghorror "don't listen to your users" article, using TF2 as it's example.
i can say for a fact some other mmos do the exact same approach of database driven balancing which have nothing to do with how the forums. the example in the article was the need for medic achievements. a different one i know from RL was the shaman "frost shock" nerf in wow. this didn't happen based on forum whining, it happened cause a db query showed it was the most used power and there was a connection between it's spam and winning averages.
the "but that's not how this ship is used!" argument is stupid right out of the gate. it's used that way because of the current balance, which is exactly why it's being rebalanced. the designers don't want you to use it that way, here's a stick to beat you with, and there's other carrots out there too. don't worry FOTM riders, people will soon point the carrots out to you on your alliance board.
you and your gameplay is only one facet of the game's growth and development. a loud one, but in the end never the one that makes the final decision. this is a good thing.
don't like it? start coding.
tl;dr version: you fail at game design. i'm glad you don't matter. - -
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:20:00 -
[2]
UHOH You said WOW. People are going to riot in this thread now.
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Rana Ash
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:24:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich UHOH You said WOW. People are going to riot in this thread now.
/me riots, with torches and pitchforks*
lyret dedreen
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Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:27:00 -
[4]
BURRRN THE HERETIC! BURRRRN!
</caps> ---------------------
Lag in Motsu or other hubs? Can't bear it and want to change? Remember : YOU are part of the problem!
Gave stuff away. Waiting for sub. to run out. |
sg3s
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:36:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Faife the famous codinghorror "don't listen to your users" article, using TF2 as it's example.
i can say for a fact some other mmos do the exact same approach of database driven balancing which have nothing to do with how the forums. the example in the article was the need for medic achievements. a different one i know from RL was the shaman "frost shock" nerf in wow. this didn't happen based on forum whining, it happened cause a db query showed it was the most used power and there was a connection between it's spam and winning averages.
the "but that's not how this ship is used!" argument is stupid right out of the gate. it's used that way because of the current balance, which is exactly why it's being rebalanced. the designers don't want you to use it that way, here's a stick to beat you with, and there's other carrots out there too. don't worry FOTM riders, people will soon point the carrots out to you on your alliance board.
you and your gameplay is only one facet of the game's growth and development. a loud one, but in the end never the one that makes the final decision. this is a good thing.
don't like it? start coding.
tl;dr version: you fail at game design. i'm glad you don't matter.
This issue was raised some time ago by Xaen, and if he reads this I am sure he will reply, let me look up the old thread, I added a video there which explains the problem too.
Users do not know what is best for them. Thats it.
Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:36:00 -
[6]
You know, a lot of people have been asking for numbers from the database on this whole speed issue. Such as percentages of players with HQ snakes, Numbers killed by nanos, and the number of nanos killed, and the related isk values.
Try not to be such a **** when posting a good point, you're just looking to get trolled/flamed
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sg3s
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:40:00 -
[7]
Link to older topic with exactly the same problem and more examples
And what is probably more interesting is this video where someone explains why users can't tell whats best for them, my personal favorite.
Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:40:00 -
[8]
Downright IGNORING your users is STUPID. Entering a debate with your users and deciding to go a dirrection VASTLY DIFFERENT from the majority opinion of your users is ok. COMMUNICATING with your users ("communicating", as in, doing it both ways, wether it's just replying with "stupid, stupid idea, because <reason>" or "hmm, you might be on to something, could you elaborate on <nagging issue>") is the key component, wether you decide to listen to them or not.
So... LISTENING (and most important, replying to) your users is good, OBEYING your users is bad.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T So... LISTENING (and most important, replying to) your users is good, OBEYING your users is bad.
Replying? Hell, not even dignifying 90% of the posts on the feedback thread is common sense.
Rest, however, I agree to. -
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sg3s
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Akita T Downright IGNORING your users is STUPID. Entering a debate with your users and deciding to go a dirrection VASTLY DIFFERENT from the majority opinion of your users is ok. COMMUNICATING with your users ("communicating", as in, doing it both ways, wether it's just replying with "stupid, stupid idea, because <reason>" or "hmm, you might be on to something, could you elaborate on <nagging issue>") is the key component, wether you decide to listen to them or not.
So... LISTENING (and most important, replying to) your users is good, OBEYING your users is bad.
This is mostly true, but it still leaves a large gap where most users simply cannot explain what they really want, check the video and you will understand.
And I know you only try to discredit the OP here but he has a good point nevertheless.
Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:53:00 -
[11]
If CCP didn't listen to the nano whiners, we certainly wouldn't have this disaster patch in the making
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: sg3s And I know you only try to discredit the OP here but he has a good point nevertheless.
Actually, more like explaining what he phrased wrong.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: sg3s Link to older topic with exactly the same problem and more examples
And what is probably more interesting is this video where someone explains why users can't tell whats best for them, my personal favorite.
i hate you i just sat though some man going on about spag sauce
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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sg3s
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ephemeron If CCP didn't listen to the nano whiners, we certainly wouldn't have this disaster patch in the making
This is only partially true, because while CCP listens to their playerbase to get information on the current problems, I am sure they took a look at what is actually happening arround eve. And I think it is fair to say that CCP did find it was a problem and that changes should be made.
As an addition I want to emphasize that the things in the dev blog are not final and open for discussion, since CCP realises it is a big thing and that they will need their userbase to get to a proper solution as the game is only worth something due to the people playing it.
The most outcries out there are only there because people know CCP pays attention to their usebase and giving feedback on the problems there which creates problems on their own as when someone from CCP explains an idea it is generally concieved as being final or something.
Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
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sg3s
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:05:00 -
[15]
Originally by: GallenteCitizen20080615
Originally by: sg3s Link to older topic with exactly the same problem and more examples
And what is probably more interesting is this video where someone explains why users can't tell whats best for them, my personal favorite.
i hate you i just sat though some man going on about spag sauce
But do you understand the issue raised by him?
Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:17:00 -
[16]
I agree with the OP. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:51:00 -
[17]
CCP has had 5 years to listen to users about the GUI I wonder what's going on there...
They should have listened to users on the map changes. The new map is worse than the old one and was probably a lot of wasted time that only added bugs.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:00:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 30/07/2008 22:01:28
Originally by: Ephemeron If CCP didn't listen to the nano whiners, we certainly wouldn't have this disaster patch in the making
And now the nano users are whining. I wonder if they'll change it back? But then we'd hit a paradox like the whole going back and changing history thing.
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:22:00 -
[19]
CCP created EVE and therefore know more about it and how to balance than any customer who has ever posted on these forums ever will.
I think CCP have done a fairly good job so far.
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:22:00 -
[20]
So the OP is saying that if CCP were reasonable, they would:
- nerf Drakes - nerf Nanoishtars and Nanocurses - nerf Megathrons and Ravens - nerf Kestrels and Rifters
But strangely, that's not what they are doing. It looks very much like the "balancing" is currently not database-, but Caldari-driven. Or if it's database-driven, they queried what Caldari ships managed to kill least often.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:30:00 -
[21]
RIOT!
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Pelagiad
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Pelagiad on 30/07/2008 23:16:15 If this is a "db query" nerf, then WTF....why did the skip over nefing the 10000000000000000000000000000000000 ravens running missions.
Wouldn't that be the 1st "db query" nerf?
This has nothing to do with the Database. It has to do with FW and all of the caldari noobs that thought it'd be fun to give pvp a try with mother CCP there to catch them when they get slapped the hell down.
Now we have a nerf that will screw at least one ship from every other race but one.....I've never seen a nanoed caldari ship worth a damn. (don't even think about using the damn crow or raptor as an example Inty's are nano ships by default...or at least used to be, they are now just skat.)
So do you think this will help the Caldar FW guys out? If not what else will they come to the forums and nerf, er I mean whine about?
I wish to God that FW never happend.
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:19:00 -
[23]
Players forget that they aren't contracting some company to develop a video game to fit their internal vision of how the game should be. Instead, we are paying a company for the product they deliver, and each month, we decide whether or not we will buy the product again.
Players have no creative rights over that product. They are told that, during the time period that they are purchasing, the game may change, even drastically. They even require the player to sign a contract, agreeing to their lack of ownership and creative license. We don't buy the product and OWN it, we simply rent the product provided.
Now, so many want to believe that THEY should have a say in deciding how the game should develop. They view player councils and forums as their god given right to influence how the game progresses and changes. Their pure arrogance and ignorance make them believe, wholeheartedly, that if the developers don't do as they wish, or as they *think* the majority of players wished, then they have some form of recompense.
But you don't. Number one, if CCP wanted the opinion of the entire playerbase (and not just a small, opinionated percentage that visit the forums), they would ask for it. Two, if CCP (being the ones whose JOB it is to code the game) feel that a change needs to be made, they don't have to get approval to do it. And three, IF you had your way with some form of democratic process of game design, you would be REALLY F*CKING P*SSED when that decision didn't go your way.
Because lets face it, boys and girls, we ALWAYS assume that our opinion makes up the majority vote, right?
Finally, for those who can't understand the really general lesson in consumerism, we'll put it this way: parents don't let a three-year-old decide where they live or what jobs the parents work; parents don't ask for a vote when a major decision has to be made.
CCP is responsible for the creation and carrying out of this game. Not a d*mn person on these boards or in-game is going to raise their hand and lose their job if the game fails. We aren't going to take the hit if customers leave, and we aren't responsible if servers crash and people lose money. All our opinions and strong words don't mean anything, if we're not sitting in the hot seat and making the final call.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pelagiad Edited by: Pelagiad on 30/07/2008 23:16:15 If this is a "db query" nerf, then WTF....why did the skip over nefing the 10000000000000000000000000000000000 ravens running missions.
Nobody cares about PvE. It's not a ship balance factor, and nobody frankly gives a toss which BS farms missions the fastest.
At any rate, be thankful EvE design isn't a democracy, because with all the Caldari folks they'd be wtfpwning everything left, right and center. Because there's more of them and they could vote in whatever.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Pelagiad
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:36:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Pelagiad on 30/07/2008 23:36:19
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Nobody cares about PvE. It's not a ship balance factor, and nobody frankly gives a toss which BS farms missions the fastest.
At any rate, be thankful EvE design isn't a democracy, because with all the Caldari folks they'd be wtfpwning everything left, right and center. Because there's more of them and they could vote in whatever.
But this is the Caldari folks pitching a fit. See the reason that there are far more Caldari pilots is because flying Caldari ships are really easy, required very few skill points to be effective and can hold their own against everything but nano ships...so guess what got nerfed.
Caldari win again, everyone get ready to play eve Caldari style [F1.....F8] and let the super duper dice rolls figure it out.
Everyone that wants to use skill and tactics...well bugger off. The Caldari want to play pvp too and they want to play it the same way the run missions.
(now I'm being very general here, I've flow with some very good Caldari pilots so if you are a tactical Caldari pvp player don't get all ****y, I'm using generalizations, you know the same generalization you use when you say that all minmatar fly nano ships)
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: sg3s Link to older topic with exactly the same problem and more examples
And what is probably more interesting is this video where someone explains why users can't tell whats best for them, my personal favorite.
Um... I think I love you.
That video basically explains all the problems I have with religion.
If I were gay, and lived in Massachusetts, I would totally gay-marry you for introducing me to this.
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Nexus Kinnon
A Few Good Men.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:18:00 -
[27]
heh those stupid users, we don't need them anyway, ruining my pristine server with their "using"
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Jack Gilligan
THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:19:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 31/07/2008 01:23:32 Last example of massive gameplay changes that basically invalidated tons of in game accomplishments and time investment also was done by a Dev team that basically didn't give a crap what the players thought of it.
It took SWG down from 200K to 20K subs within months.
While Devs shouldn't do everything players want, they also can't afford to ignore them completely. Fact of the matter is, I, like most think that nanos do need some sort of nerf. But NOT the all encompassing change currently on Sisi that affects FAR more than just nanos.
This patch is a true Combat Downgrade that may need to a New Game Experience largely consisting of fewer players. Which isn't in anyone's interest.
The notes of the changes read like some Devs got royally drunk and decided to basically redo the dynamics of combat in one single patch. I hope sanity prevails. I'm pessimistic, because my SWG experience taught me that Devs are basically arrogant asses, they think they know what's best, and once they lock in on something they are capable of ignoring reality and will genuinely be surprised when players end up meaning what they say and leave over their massive changes...
My hope is that CCP goes back to the drawing board and actually works on the problem (the high end off the chart nanos, like cruisers at 10K+) and does it in a way that leaves that which isn't a problem ALONE.
--- My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:29:00 -
[29]
Like this, for instance ?
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Hal Magnon
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:42:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Hal Magnon on 31/07/2008 01:42:15 Mentioning WoW was definately a mistake, I can't help myself now. This really needs correcting.
Listen to Valve's developer commentry in Team Fortress 2. Now go listen to Tom 'Kalgan' Chilton speak at the World Wide Invitational in Paris when he spoke of 'evolving classes'.
Notice the difference? Valve tells you what they think about an issue, but then they elaborate on WHY they do so. Kalgan though is typical of senior WoW developers: they tell you what they think of something, that is all. Decisions are not based on evidence, but on the internal politics of Blizzard. Jeff Kaplan wants PvE and raiding. WoW was turned into a PvE raiding game. It didn't start out like that though and this is an arguement I've had hundreds of times with people with a six minute memory-spans that have never seen the old Orc and Tauren models before they were turned into cuddly toys. The WoW Shaman community had the highest concentration of evidence-based theorycrafting in the game in 2005. By the end of 2006 they knew it was pointless continuing with the class and re-rolled Rogue, Warrior or Warlock. They were sick of constantly correcting Blizzard's dog-awful maths.
CCP, they are kind of in the middle. It doesn't help that a major in-game player faction is associated with them. I remember when I first played EVE and there were constant accusations about how CCP patch the game to benefit their favourite 'class' and faction, just like Blizzard. Whilst the claims are obviously exaggerated and 'EVEgate' rose them to irritating levels, CCP failed utterly to tackle them. Just like Blizz.
P.S: given Jeff Kaplan's experience and qualifications, he's no better suited to Project Lead than I am. I'm sure there will be some senior CCP devs that are the same.
P.S.S: no that wasn't me claiming to know better, that was me claiming that key development staff often don't know better either unless they keep to strictly open and evidence-based design which they are prepared to discuss in the light of scrutiny.
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