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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:35:00 -
[61]
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
If you were working as a paid military agent then the military/government that your working for would have salvage rights. Seriously, how many marines do you see go around blowing up tanks then taking the remains home.
Not sure about the Marines, but the cops do it all the time. It's called "asset forfeiture". If you're growing cannabis in your home, not only will they break into your house and steal your cannabis, but they'll then try and take your home too. I call that theft.
Um yeah, that's called the law. You see, the pot, growing supplies, and everything inside of the house is considered material evidence in the court of law.
They place these materials in a warehouse for further investigation. Later the weed is destroyed. In the meantime the agency collects that stuff, not the individual officers.
Like I said, maybe CCP should implement it so that your agent gets salvage rights and just pays you for the job since we wanna do RL comparisions.
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:39:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
By all means, lets.
Given that the capsuleers we are playing are not given the opportunity to work for the equivalent organization (The Caldari Navy, The Republic Fleet etc.) but are instead basically free lance mercenaries your analogy is a reasonable one.
NPCs from the Republic Fleet may not claim salvage, the Minmatar Republic owns that.
However mercenaries negotiate their own contracts and generally keep any damn thing they pick up on their actions that they feel they might want unless it's specifically part of their contract otherwise. So it makes perfect sense for mercenary contractors to be able to claim such things as salvage as their own (precisely as they do with the 'other' salvage - that being modules etc.)
Have you heard of Blackwater? I don't exactly see them hauling off salvage either.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:40:00 -
[63]
Psh. Morals are subjective. If you don't consider salvaging to be theft, it won't be morally wrong. It's arrogant to demand that everybody bows down to your world view no matter what the law says.
In short:
Salvaging is legal. Stuff your morals.
-------- Ideas for: Mining Ships |
Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:41:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Grim Mercy on 31/07/2008 22:43:34
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich As long as we're using RL instances
If you were working as a paid military agent then the military/government that your working for would have salvage rights. Seriously, how many marines do you see go around blowing up tanks then taking the remains home.
By all means, lets.
I think I have a leg to stand on, but on second thought I realize that I just went ahead and implied some made-up theories of what probably happens... and, along the way, completely discounted what happens to material left unattended in hostile war zones.
I like what you did with this one. You cherry-picked a retort that you thought you could pick apart, and then failed.
It was neat.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:42:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Grim Mercy
Ok, so one one hand, you say that even though a government sanctifies the killing of a particular group (be it ethnic, religious, etc.) it is still immoral... Aren't criminals technically a group? Aren't there only a handful of countries left in the world that still have a death penalty for said "group"?
You aren't honestly trying to base your argument on criminals being in the same class as innocent noncombatants of some randomly chosen group are you?
Did I actually read that?
Oh and your death penalty stat? In 2008 there are 60 countries still actively using capital punishment. Hardly a 'handful'.
There are about twice as many countries which do not use capital punishment or restrict it to very rare occurrances. So the odds are about 2-1 against using the most generous definition.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:45:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
innocent noncombatants
In the creating of the salvage, you are a combatant.
So...
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:47:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
Originally by: Terranid Meester n00B
Oh my god - the brilliance of your counterargument astonishes me!
How can I possibly survive such spherical wit?
Honestly - I think I'll no longer waste my time with the fools and restrict myself to intelligent discourse.
Still a n00B.
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Joe Starbreaker
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:48:00 -
[68]
Originally by: thisismyalt Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze duh ur-tze
LOL took me forever to figure out that's a made-up spelling for "Liu2 kou3shui3 de5 biao3zi5 he2 hou2zi5 de5 ben4 er2zi5." Ok truth is I just googled it and found out it's one of those made-up Chinese phrases from Firefly.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:49:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom You aren't honestly trying to base your argument on criminals being in the same class as innocent noncombatants of some randomly chosen group are you?
Who's saying they're criminals? The government? That government that you claim can't be trusted not to use flimsy reasons to erradicate "displeasing" groups?
Are you telling me that you don't see the contradiction in your statements?
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:54:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Quelque Chose Given that what you're doing is complaining that someone has caused you to generate merely a shit- ton of Virtual Buxz in an hour rather than an entire ****ton of them, and furthermore framing it in absolute moral terms (complete with references to genocide for chrissakes); I'd have to say that under the circumstances to call you a 'whiner' is to cough up no small generosity.
*sigh*
First all, let me be clear. To my knowledge I have never personally been 'ninja salvaged'. I simply happen to see it as wrong. When I see something wrong I act. That's my nature (and in the real world I carry a couple of knife scars from doing so thank you very much).
Your central argument seems to be that salvage is largely meaningless, so why worry about it?
Allow me to provide you a real world example of why that is untrue.
The other day I helped out a fellow in a L1 he was having trouble with. I tanked with my Assault Ship while he went after the baddies in his rookie ship. When he ran into trouble, I unleashed some drones and guns to bail him out. I was doing this primarily to help out a new player but the LP were helpful as well as I was trying to build agent status in the area.
The pay for the mission was about 8,000 Isk each. The loot (which I let him keep entire) was about 12,000 ISK - so would have been 6,000 each had we divided it.
I salvaged the mission and split that with him. The salvage from that mission was a little over 200,000 ISK EACH.
So that salvage you're attempting to make light of that I shouldn't be worried about was worth around 14 TIMES the entire rest of the mission, loot and mission pay combined. That percentage held true for the second mission we ran together later that night.
Now, on high level missions, it's not quite such a high percentage, but salvage frequently exceeds mission pay and loot by as much as 2-3 times.
So, yes, I happen to consider letting go the lion's share of the mission revenue to someone who just sailed in and picked it up to be inappropriate. You may feel otherwise, but that's why I hold the position I do.
And since so few are being civil, I do believe I'm quite done with this thread. The point has been sufficiently made to anyone reasonable.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:54:00 -
[71]
Damnit, you made me invoke Godwin's Law. I hate doing that.
Anyway, you should probably stop. I'm not saying you have to, as I don't have a way of enforcing it (as I am not a "legal" government, heh), but I can hear your self-respect begging you to stop.
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:56:00 -
[72]
Morality does not come into play in EvE. We're allowed to murder, steal, do drugs and clone ourselves.
That's what makes CCP great. They don't get stuck on the values of one religion or another. You make your own principles, but morality is not a cut-and-dry science, either. What is moral in one country is immoral in another.
Only an arrogant man thinks that everyone should follow by his moral code, because only an arrogant man assumes that his way is the only right. Imposing your code on others isn't help, it's oppression.
So CCP has the balls enough to let players be immoral. If they could get away with **** and pillaging, they might do that, too. If that grates your soul, EvE is not the game for you.
And, you might want to not be so naive. Always be prepared for others not to share your viewpoint. If you are, your more likely to be ready to defend yourself when the time comes.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:59:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
(and in the real world I carry a couple of knife scars from doing so thank you very much)
No, you don't.
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
And since so few are being civil, I do believe I'm quite done with this thread. The point has been sufficiently made to anyone reasonable.
Us not agreeing with you and poking your moral arguments completely full of holes does not constitute incivility. Also, disagreeing with you does not default in any lack of reason. Your phrasing expresses the last vestige of the close-minded, inflexible and unimaginative.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:02:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom So, yes, I happen to consider letting go the lion's share of the mission revenue to someone who just sailed in and picked it up to be inappropriate. You may feel otherwise, but that's why I hold the position I do.
And this is a more useful argument since it actually deals with gameplay. However, the counter-argument to this is that missions are almost entirely risk-free, and in ≡v≡, that's not a good thing…
What ninja salvagers do is that they introduce a modicum of risk into what's otherwise an uncharacteristically safe line of work. Even then, the "risk" is simply a matter of lowered rewards (but never zero, since the rewards given by the agent are guaranteed), rather than something that really hurts such as losing your ship/clone/skillpoints.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:05:00 -
[75]
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:09:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Grim Mercy on 31/07/2008 23:10:07
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom So, yes, I happen to consider letting go the lion's share of the mission revenue to someone who just sailed in and picked it up to be inappropriate. You may feel otherwise, but that's why I hold the position I do.
And this is a more useful argument since it actually deals with gameplay. However, the counter-argument to this is that missions are almost entirely risk-free, and in ≡v≡, that's not a good thingà
What ninja salvagers do is that they introduce a modicum of risk into what's otherwise an uncharacteristically safe line of work. Even then, the "risk" is simply a matter of lowered rewards (but never zero, since the rewards given by the agent are guaranteed), rather than something that really hurts such as losing your ship/clone/skillpoints.
That is a good point. I completely missed it as I was on an anti-moral crusade (I love debate!). My apologies. Tippia also offers a good counterpoint.
Also consider that there are ways of dealing with ninja-salvagers other than lobbying and litigation: If they show up in a destroyer or cruiser, a Kestrel can suicide pop that guy, and not only are you out of far less money (after insurance and just having gank modules on) losing that ship than losing the salvage, you also get to make that ninja think twice about messing with your wrecks! If that ninja shows up in a BC, it's the same deal, only you're out about 10 mil on the raven you need to pop him (after insurance again, of course).
Get some friends (as CCP intended) all in suicide Kestrels, and give them hell until they give up when they realize it's not profitable to them. It's actually kind of a neat game mechanic... and this coming from a mission runner!
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:11:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Grim Mercy
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
(and in the real world I carry a couple of knife scars from doing so thank you very much)
No, you don't.
But I do! And I got the pic to prove it since someone else called me on it once Still though, even with my sense of right and wrong I make certain not to mix reality with games.
Originally by: Grim Mercy
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
And since so few are being civil, I do believe I'm quite done with this thread. The point has been sufficiently made to anyone reasonable.
Us not agreeing with you and poking your moral arguments completely full of holes does not constitute incivility. Also, disagreeing with you does not default in any lack of reason. Your phrasing expresses the last vestige of the close-minded, inflexible and unimaginative.
And he never countered my comment about blackwater either I was hoping to see what'd he come up with there.
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:15:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Hegbard Shooting NPC:s is murder. You can't glorify it with names like mission running. Compared to that, stealing your wrecks is a minor crime. Go turn yourself in to the police right now. Bloody murderer.
Shooting NPC:s should cause global flagging, so that people can shoot you.
1/10 for effort.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:30:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tippia And this is a more useful argument since it actually deals with gameplay. However, the counter-argument to this is that missions are almost entirely risk-free, and in ≡v≡, that's not a good thingà
What ninja salvagers do is that they introduce a modicum of risk into what's otherwise an uncharacteristically safe line of work. Even then, the "risk" is simply a matter of lowered rewards (but never zero, since the rewards given by the agent are guaranteed), rather than something that really hurts such as losing your ship/clone/skillpoints.
Everyone has their own reasons for believing something or arguing something. If you prefer gameplay ones to moral imperatives, that's fine by me (I happen to consider both important).
The ONLY thing that I'd like to see is an aggression flag for salvagers because, while ninja salvagers add some risk to missions (in heavily populated areas around Jita anyway), they accept very little themselves and the rewards can be very high. As long as we're talking about risk vs. reward, the ninjas need more risk as the rewards are very high if the job is done right and done well.
And as to suggestions for counters - yes I do keep a suicide ship or two about although I've never yet needed to use one. I spend most of my time in 0.0 where it doesn't matter much as Empire mission running grew boring as there wasn't enough risk to make it interesting anymore.
I just feel that without any risk for the salvagers (or, perhaps to be fair, MORE risk then currently is in place) the system is out of balance and wrong.
And yes, that's a moral judgement of right and wrong, but whatever. It's what I believe and while I've been known to change my mind on things when presented with convincing facts, I have yet to see any facts presented in this thread that I consider convincing.
Although, Tippia, I really did like the in-character stuff! I wish I had time to RP more things of that sort.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:30:00 -
[80]
I've decided this thread has to be a joke, because it's just too silly to be serious.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:34:00 -
[81]
Just a couple things here:
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I salvaged the mission and split that with him. The salvage from that mission was a little over 200,000 ISK EACH.
So that salvage you're attempting to make light of that I shouldn't be worried about was worth around 14 TIMES the entire rest of the mission, loot and mission pay combined. That percentage held true for the second mission we ran together later that night.
Yeah, and I notice YOU salvaged it. Not him. Know why? Because he was a newbie and didn't even have salvaging trained. Good thing you were there, otherwise he might've had to quit the game, or died or run another mission or some other horrible thing that happens when you don't get 200k ISK.
God only knows how the rest of the newbs make it, I swear.
And then there's this little gem:
Quote: Now, on high level missions, it's not quite such a high percentage, but salvage frequently exceeds mission pay and loot by as much as 2-3 times.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize I'd just got off the boat yesterday.
I run missions myself AND I read the mission forum so you need to go peddle that bridge someplace else. If it's an e- peen thread in M+E, salvaging "isn't worth it half the time;" if it's a ninja salvage thread though, look out buddy 'cause it's 5 bil/ hour.
Here, read this: http://eve-search.com/thread/829085/page/5#132
That thread was about mineral output from L4s and that guy gave us a nice, gimped example where "loot and salvage sales" came to about half again the 20 mil he picked up from bounties and payout. But now it's 2-3x because the argument runs the other direction.
You guys are the greatest. Nerf L4s tbqfh.
___________________________________________
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Losvial
Amarr The Flying Dutchmen
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:44:00 -
[82]
Why bring morality into a game that has a label as cold and harsh by it's own developers? The reason eve is a great game is that we are mostly free to do what we want and not being forced down by laws and rules based upon one or few peoples perception of morality.
Even if morality belonged in eve, who's morals should it be? Yours? Mine? The Devs? Christian morals? Muslim morals?
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Radix Salvilines
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:55:00 -
[83]
heh i had many thieves flying to my missions :)
They took maby 3-4 wrecks all this time and thats only frig wrecks i dont care about :)
Just salvage on the run man. If u dont want to loose high slots use drone ships :)
No problem. When a thief sees ishtar or domi doing missions they go look for another victim (most likely calmari noobz in cnr's).
If u cant fend off of thieves get another agent and come back do the mission later :) ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥-☻BPINC☺-♥ ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:59:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Major Sprawl some of us who depend on our mission loot and salvage for the bulk of our earnings are getting sick of thieves salvaging our wrecks in mission.The only option we have is to shoot our own wrecks to discourage the thieving ,and so they lose and we lose.real smart thinking CCP.but since its happening more often these days CCP should make scanning missions take much more time to ensure no ones coming back to salvage their own wrecks.were tired of all thats been good being nerfed and the bad is left alone.Ive lost 2 friends to age of conan due to this(it was the straw that broke their back).If mission runners move to other areas for earning ISK or just leave EVE,The economy WILL be upset.We spend a long time and money to skill up and lvl our agents to have the benefit of lvl 4 missions,why does CCP alow a noob with minimal skills to enter lvl 4 missions even while lvl 4 ratts are still present.tsk tsk
awwww poor baby ...
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente Buffalo Soldiers
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:06:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 01/08/2008 00:10:20 I endorse this thread. It delivers care bear tears in buckets.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Yelan Zhou
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:16:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Yelan Zhou on 01/08/2008 00:17:53 Since we are on property issues. Can we please flag roids too? Its anoying if someone comes and mines my roid.Ah and a pvp flag system too so i cant be attacked if i dont want it.Heck how about scraping the skill/time system and introducing levels?
Ohhh pleeeeaaase can we?
I almost forgot, how about magic? I would love to sit in my Frigate and throw fireballs.
War, War never changes.
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DogSlime
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:19:00 -
[87]
This character derives all income from L4 mission running.
I really don't understand the fuss about "ninja" salvagers.
If you have a decent quality agent, then the time you don't spend salvaging is time spent on another mission. In most cases (i.e. those missions where there is a bounty on each NPC ship) the combination of mission reward, loyalty points and bounties earns more ISK per minute than salvaging after the mission.
As long as they don't take the mission objective (in the case of missions that have a cargo drop as the objective) then I really don't see what the big deal is. |
J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:21:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
If you were working as a paid military agent then the military/government that your working for would have salvage rights. Seriously, how many marines do you see go around blowing up tanks then taking the remains home.
Not sure about the Marines, but the cops do it all the time. It's called "asset forfeiture". If you're growing cannabis in your home, not only will they break into your house and steal your cannabis, but they'll then try and take your home too. I call that theft.
Um yeah, that's called the law. You see, the pot, growing supplies, and everything inside of the house is considered material evidence in the court of law.
They place these materials in a warehouse for further investigation. Later the weed is destroyed. In the meantime the agency collects that stuff, not the individual officers.
Like I said, maybe CCP should implement it so that your agent gets salvage rights and just pays you for the job since we wanna do RL comparisions.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:26:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Ruze Morality does not come into play in EvE. We're allowed to murder, steal, do drugs and clone ourselves.
It's not the morality doesn't exist in Eve, it's the CCP doesn't dictate what is moral and what isn't (for the most part...griefing aside). And that's what makes this game so great; it's as close to a virtual world/society as I've seen yet.
So I think it's great that the OP feels that ninja salvaging is immoral, but I don't agree that CCP should do anything about it.
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CogInTheWheel
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:59:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: thisismyalt Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze duh ur-tze
LOL took me forever to figure out that's a made-up spelling for "Liu2 kou3shui3 de5 biao3zi5 he2 hou2zi5 de5 ben4 er2zi5." Ok truth is I just googled it and found out it's one of those made-up Chinese phrases from Firefly.
Not made up spelling, just simplified by dropping the numbers (which represent pronunciation in PinYin) and spelling it phonetically.
Most of those phrases arn't made up - bastardized a bit, yes. |
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