Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Taya Tal
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 04:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Taya Tal on 02/08/2008 04:32:48 Because we can.
...And they are overpowered.
...And it would continue the long held tradition of nerfing.
|
Taya Tal
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 04:32:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Taya Tal on 02/08/2008 04:32:48 Because we can.
...And they are overpowered.
...And it would continue the long held tradition of nerfing.
|
ddred
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:05:00 -
[3]
Their allready nerfed, they have a low scan resolution, a 5 second delay after decloaking, non existant DPS and a short targeting range so for racial jammers they need to fit sensor boosters with targeting range.
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:20:00 -
[4]
Originally by: ddred Their allready nerfed, they have a low scan resolution, a 5 second delay after decloaking, non existant DPS and a short targeting range so for racial jammers they need to fit sensor boosters with targeting range.
funny the same drawbacks that other recons have. Even so they are several orders of magnitude more powerfull and can stay imune to enemies at 100 km + keeping 1 or 2 ships jammed almost forever (YES THEY CAN ! You naysayers that say there is no perma jamming shut up! I just spent 17 cyclers of jamming JAMMED in a row from a single falcon. What i was in ? In a tempest 1 1 ECCM II.
If there ever was some overpowered category of ships in eve they are ECM ships, wayyyy more than nanoships ever were. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
|
Spurty
Caldari Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 00:28:00 -
[5]
2 kitsunes killed my kestrel as I was perma-jammed.
It took them 10mins to kill me and was the most boring engagement since the last ecm heavy multiple vs me fight.
If only I had fit those fof rockets -- Two prostitutes standing on a street corner. One says to the other, "Have you ever been picked up by the fuzz?" The other replies, "No, but I've been swung around by the ****!" |
ddred
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 01:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Spurty 2 kitsunes killed my kestrel as I was perma-jammed.
It took them 10mins to kill me and was the most boring engagement since the last ecm heavy multiple vs me fight.
If only I had fit those fof rockets
Do you think a kestrel should kill 2 ships worth about 180 times more? their paper weight aswell, if you did have fof you would have probably killed them showing you how vulnerable they are and why some pilots carry fof missiles with them just in case. So if a jamming ship can allready be killed by a ship 90 times less expensive than itself their allready nerfed which is why they need the range.
|
ddred
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 01:17:00 -
[7]
falcon cost: 80M insurance cost: 4.6M insurance payout: 14.6M real cost of a falcon:70M
tempest cost: 77M insurance cost:31M insurance payout:104M rea cost of a tempest:4M So... a falcon is worth about 17 times more than a tempest. Their support ships, they jam up to 7 targets max and can usualy only perma jam 3 BSes max. All it takes is one of them to fit ECCM and it lowers it to 2 BSes max, if both fit ECCM then both BSes can take advantage of the spread out jammers and less jams making the falcon very vulnerable if the BS pilot knows how to fight. for Solo pvp a rook or falcon usualy have 3-4 multi jammers which is enough to perma jam 2 hacs or 1.5 BSes, fit an ECCM and the BS will over power the falcon in solo pvp. Therefore it's only fair in fleet warfare that a falcon can jam between 7 and 2 targets since it relies on a fleet to do the killing, therefore the oposing fleet should have prepared for the falcons. And because of this i'm guessing you were alone against this falcon which IMO is fair. a falcon loss can be more crippling to a wallet than a tempest and if you did prepare and had a mate with you, you would have killed the falcon or he would have ran way which is only right for an ECM platform. as it has close to no DPS to take down a BS alone.
|
Spurty
Caldari Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 01:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ddred Do you think a kestrel should kill 2 ships worth about 180 times more? their paper weight aswell, if you did have fof you would have probably killed them showing you how vulnerable they are and why some pilots carry fof missiles with them just in case. So if a jamming ship can allready be killed by a ship 90 times less expensive than itself their allready nerfed which is why they need the range.
no, that wasn't the point of my post. You are correct with all you say.
Its just the fight, although I was never ever going to win, I was also just unable to do anything at all.
I accept the loss of a ship, its the loss of that play time. I would have self destructed, but like, its Sisi. Why 'run away?'.
The key point was that I'd sooner ECM ships could do a lot more damage. -- Two prostitutes standing on a street corner. One says to the other, "Have you ever been picked up by the fuzz?" The other replies, "No, but I've been swung around by the ****!" |
Taram Caldar
Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 09:13:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 03/08/2008 09:15:30 LOLWhat? Falcon is overpowered?
Try flying one before spouting nonsense. 3 launchers, no drones, and slower than a crate floating in the middle of a lake.
Yep, it's overpowered alright... in your dreams.
It's a gang support ship. Alone a Falcon is just waiting to die to the first FOF or Drone carrying ship that can keep a point on it or keep it bumped. Seriously... if you're worried about being jammed fit an ECCM. Even against a HAC each jammer from a falcon has, tops, a 50% chance of jamming if you DONT have an ECCM... less than 25% chance if you do. That's if they're using racials. If they're using multispecs their chances of jamming are far lower.
.
|
Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 09:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 03/08/2008 09:15:30 LOLWhat? Falcon is overpowered?
Try flying one before spouting nonsense. 3 launchers, no drones, and slower than a crate floating in the middle of a lake.
Yep, it's overpowered alright... in your dreams.
It's a gang support ship. Alone a Falcon is just waiting to die to the first FOF or Drone carrying ship that can keep a point on it or keep it bumped. Seriously... if you're worried about being jammed fit an ECCM. Even against a HAC each jammer from a falcon has, tops, a 50% chance of jamming if you DONT have an ECCM... less than 25% chance if you do. That's if they're using racials. If they're using multispecs their chances of jamming are far lower.
Try training up your skills, I get well over 70% with 1 racial and 95% with 2, ECCM wont save you
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 11:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ddred falcon cost: 80M insurance cost: 4.6M insurance payout: 14.6M real cost of a falcon:70M
tempest cost: 77M insurance cost:31M insurance payout:104M rea cost of a tempest:4M So... a falcon is worth about 17 times more than a tempest. Their support ships, they jam up to 7 targets max and can usualy only perma jam 3 BSes max. All it takes is one of them to fit ECCM and it lowers it to 2 BSes max, if both fit ECCM then both BSes can take advantage of the spread out jammers and less jams making the falcon very vulnerable if the BS pilot knows how to fight. for Solo pvp a rook or falcon usualy have 3-4 multi jammers which is enough to perma jam 2 hacs or 1.5 BSes, fit an ECCM and the BS will over power the falcon in solo pvp. Therefore it's only fair in fleet warfare that a falcon can jam between 7 and 2 targets since it relies on a fleet to do the killing, therefore the oposing fleet should have prepared for the falcons. And because of this i'm guessing you were alone against this falcon which IMO is fair. a falcon loss can be more crippling to a wallet than a tempest and if you did prepare and had a mate with you, you would have killed the falcon or he would have ran way which is only right for an ECM platform. as it has close to no DPS to take down a BS alone.
and? The fact is falcon is far far more powerful than the recons of other races. And mathers nothign that they don 't deal damage. Their damage effectiveness si the same as the ship they jamm out of a fight. THey are way too powerfull because wehn you are jammed you can do nothing to change that. Contrary to all EWAr.
Do you really think is Ok for a single recon to take 2 or 3 BS COMPLETELY out of athe fight? That is sooo beyond dumb.
I am not talking about 1v1. I am talking about the FACT taht falcons adn rooks are the most influential ships on the outcome of any fight between any size of gangs (except super capital blobs).
And don 't come with the COST justification. IT worthes NOTHIGN to prevent my vagabond and polycarbons from being nerfed. IT worthed NOTHIGN on the snake sets. So don 't even try to use it. Single standards. IF the cost is not valid excuse for minmatar than its not for caldari either. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
|
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD Solidus Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 12:18:00 -
[12]
yes... i'm sure drones are an issue at 220km absolutely nothing is an issue there with >14 jam strength - putting the gist back into logistics |
Mysdora
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 12:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Blah blah
1. This is not counter-strike. Ships don't get balanced based on their 1vs1 performance. 2. If you get permajammed, it's because you chose to neglegt ecm, which is completely your own fault. 3. If you can't handle the range issue, it's because you chose to neglegt that part of combat, which is also completely your own fault.
The solution to these problems is not for CCP to nerf everything so that your cookie cutter BS setup can cope with all situations. The solution is for you to bring some friends and variety so you can take care of the situations. It really isn't that difficult.
|
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 12:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
funny the same drawbacks that other recons have. Even so they are several orders of magnitude more powerfull and can stay imune to enemies at 100 km + keeping 1 or 2 ships jammed almost forever (YES THEY CAN ! You naysayers that say there is no perma jamming shut up! I just spent 17 cyclers of jamming JAMMED in a row from a single falcon. What i was in ? In a tempest 1 1 ECCM II.
So how long have you been full of crap or is this just an abberation?.
|
Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 12:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mysdora
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Blah blah
1. This is not counter-strike. Ships don't get balanced based on their 1vs1 performance. 2. If you get permajammed, it's because you chose to neglegt ecm, which is completely your own fault. 3. If you can't handle the range issue, it's because you chose to neglegt that part of combat, which is also completely your own fault.
The solution to these problems is not for CCP to nerf everything so that your cookie cutter BS setup can cope with all situations. The solution is for you to bring some friends and variety so you can take care of the situations. It really isn't that difficult.
This.
I also was led to believe that one of main point of electronic warfare (say, ECMs) were to incapacitate someone out of fight.
No, believe it or not, having to fit racials is a huge letdown unless you get lucky with numbers, and it's easy to 'overwhelm' it. It can only carry so many jammers, and there's no guarantee of success.
ECCMs and remote ECCMs, learn to use it if you want to deal with Falcons. ---------------------
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon is recruiting! Take no substitute when it comes to alt-cor |
Kyax
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 13:52:00 -
[16]
Falcons are good yes but they are really easy to kill as well. Like the stealth bomber etc. If you want a falcon to not jam a lot then you have to give it the same shields as a battleship hence were we were when EW in general was nurfed. The whole recon area was developed to move it away from battleship class ships to easy to kill ones.
As for damage, it has no drone pay at all and can only fit 3 weapons its only role is to shut down an opposing force and if it fails it is the first to go down. So no they are not overpowered because there power comes at a price. If you had friends that could come to your rescue the falcon would go down very quickly.
Most people don't like falcons because they move around in roaming gangs and basically stop a single target dealing any damage, is that not tactics in eve or should you always be able to shoot back. As for perma jamming if you miss you are dead therefore a falcon is a jam or you loose your ship easily situation, therefore you need to be bloody good at it, fail to lock them down and you WILL die.
In reflection I can only suggest you do not like being frustrated by them, well I get frustrated by the game as well I don't necessarily go to the forum and get the game re designed as a result. Maybe a more constructive criticism and less this ship killed mine and I didn't like it therefore it must be nurfed attitude needs to be taken by you guys.
|
KardonHarman
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 13:52:00 -
[17]
A ship is only overpowered if there is no counter to it.
If you know your going against a gang with Falcons then fit ECCM and have your missile spewers carry FOF and you make them almost redundant.
To be an effective jammer a Falcon has to have zero tank, low speed and minimal DPS giving it virtually no self defence capability except range. Get a lock on it and any decent Falcon pilot will warp out taking it out of the fight for a couple minutes at least. get it tackled and unless its very lucky its probably as good as dead
The Falcon is one of the most vunerable ships in any gang, and one of the easiest to counter
|
Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 14:07:00 -
[18]
A falcon will easily die to a well timed alpha strike by 2-3 Apocalypses or Rokhs.
|
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD Solidus Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 16:24:00 -
[19]
so... what else do i have to fit on my scimitar...
- 10mn MWD/AB / your world only has a radius 75km in this ship - LSE or MSE / one just needs the buffer, right? - ballistic deflection field / against the "fine" caldari missles - invul / just to override the matari lack of HP - ladar ECCM / yay, heat - 38.2 ladar \o/
nope... still perma jammed by multispecs, both of us according to our killmails... from 190km - putting the gist back into logistics |
Inspiration
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 19:53:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Inspiration on 03/08/2008 19:56:11 The problem with ECM is that there is no real counter other then to bring in more people into the fleet.
It is overpowered in several ways:
1. You need at least 3 ECCM on your anti support ships to have a chance (most non capital ships don't even come close to a decent base sensor strength to make ECCM wort it). 2. You need to have 2 sensor boosters at least to have a decent chance of even locking a falcon at range. 3. You have to sacrifice ALL of you personal tank in order to fit the needed modules. 4. You will have next to no DPS after all this and any weapon that hit at that range, will take an eternity to arrive at target (cruise missiles) 5. Its absolute, you do not loose some locks or hit less...no you are obsolete completely (more on that later).
The current way to deal with falcons effectively is:
1. Outnumber your opponent 2 to 1 2. Use small ships and do not have sentry fire.
This is why falcons are the preferred anti-pirate weapon as pirates can't deploy small ships in most engagements due to sentries. They are also very good anti-capital weapons, they can jam a carrier most of the time if it has only 2 ECCM fitted (that's half the med slots on some carriers).
Given that falcons are mostly flown in big blobs as by themselves they are indeed vulnerable. You get the idea that the only counter is to have your own even bigger blob with ECM ships. Therefore they need to be nerfed hard for the same reasons nano ships get the bat: You need more ECM to counter ECM, thus it kills all other tactics and ships.
There is a good solution to this all tho, and it wont take more then 1 programmer a few hours of coding!
Make ECM work in a non absolute way, like dampeners degrade either sensor range or scan resolution, ECM should degrade a ships ability to lock targets. Say a ship can normally lock 7 targets, then after an ECM module does its job that number is reduced to eventually 0 as each consecutive jam from the same module kicks in and costs a ship another lock capability (on a fail it should regain that lock). ECCM can then strengthen a ships ability to resist the speed of this process and auto targeters can add a buffer providing yet more time. It would be fine I think that when you are down to just a few locks you get a bleeding effect, in which one is shortly overpowered and loose all locks but can relock one or two if you still got that capability. That is enough to mess most ships up pretty badly and ECCM might have a role as a guarantee you won't loose a in lock this way (1 per module).
So in IMHO, ECM is a problem and heavily overpowered, but on the other hand its very easy to fix in a way that does keep their role a viable and effective one.
|
|
Andrew Haiduk
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 19:59:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Andrew Haiduk on 03/08/2008 19:59:13
Originally by: Moon Kitten A falcon will easily die to a well timed alpha strike by 2-3 Apocalypses or Rokhs.
Says the masters of blob warfare with manpower to spare! Go home!
INSPIRATION btw......not my default, sorry!
|
Inspiration
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 21:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: KardonHarman A ship is only overpowered if there is no counter to it.
If you know your going against a gang with Falcons then fit ECCM and have your missile spewers carry FOF and you make them almost redundant.
To be an effective jammer a Falcon has to have zero tank, low speed and minimal DPS giving it virtually no self defence capability except range. Get a lock on it and any decent Falcon pilot will warp out taking it out of the fight for a couple minutes at least. get it tackled and unless its very lucky its probably as good as dead
The Falcon is one of the most vunerable ships in any gang, and one of the easiest to counter
You obviously never fought a battle with limited numbers. And BTW, FoF goes for the closes aggressor, which is either a drone, a NPC sentry or a real combat ship where it does next to no damage on. Everything but a falcon really!
I kind of feel bad for PL now I see you talk such nonsense!
|
Inspiration
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 21:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mysdora
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Blah blah
1. This is not counter-strike. Ships don't get balanced based on their 1vs1 performance. 2. If you get permajammed, it's because you chose to neglegt ecm, which is completely your own fault. 3. If you can't handle the range issue, it's because you chose to neglegt that part of combat, which is also completely your own fault.
The solution to these problems is not for CCP to nerf everything so that your cookie cutter BS setup can cope with all situations. The solution is for you to bring some friends and variety so you can take care of the situations. It really isn't that difficult.
BLOB your way out of it? Man you are a genius, I vote for you to balance EVE for CCP!
|
Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 22:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Inspiration lot of stuff over many posts
Not only do you need very, very good skills to effectively use one, but Falcon is sacrificing all its mid-slots for ECMs, and uhh... sacrifice 'personal tank'.
Small engagement? Bring your own Falcon(s) and jam the other EWar. Even table. Hell, even Arazu and dampening would cripple it.
Nublet.
Your argument is void. ---------------------
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon is recruiting! Take no substitute when it comes to alt-cor |
doctorstupid2
The Accursed
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Odre Echee
Originally by: Inspiration lot of stuff over many posts
Not only do you need very, very good skills to effectively use one, but Falcon is sacrificing all its mid-slots for ECMs, and uhh... sacrifice 'personal tank'.
Small engagement? Bring your own Falcon(s) and jam the other EWar. Even table. Hell, even Arazu and dampening would cripple it.
Nublet.
Your argument is void.
When the only viable counter to a specific ship or module is more of the same, something is wrong, it's inherently overpowered, for lack of a better term.
Remove optimal range bonuses, reduce effectiveness of ECM rigs to match those of damp rigs, and presto chango it's balanced with other EWAR, and most importantly they can actually be shot when they miss a jam akin to the other recons.
Abusive | Deadspace | Deadspace2 |
Taram Caldar
Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.03 23:40:00 -
[26]
Bottom line: Falcon is no better or worse than any other ship in the game. It fills a very specific role very well but outside that role it sucks ass. I am really tired of seeing thousands of 'nerf this, nerf that' threads when people run into a ship they haven't even tried to counter.
If you are having trouble against ECM ships then bring a couple of your own, or bring a damp ship to nuke their range so that they can't use their ECM and your snipers can kill them. They aren't an IWIN button if your fleet is properly set up. If you fly with no ewar of your own then expect enemy fleets with ewar to chew you up. .
|
Lili Lu
Victory Not Vengeance
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 01:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: doctorstupid2
Originally by: Odre Echee
Originally by: Inspiration lot of stuff over many posts
Not only do you need very, very good skills to effectively use one, but Falcon is sacrificing all its mid-slots for ECMs, and uhh... sacrifice 'personal tank'.
Small engagement? Bring your own Falcon(s) and jam the other EWar. Even table. Hell, even Arazu and dampening would cripple it.
Nublet.
Your argument is void.
When the only viable counter to a specific ship or module is more of the same, something is wrong, it's inherently overpowered, for lack of a better term.
Remove optimal range bonuses, reduce effectiveness of ECM rigs to match those of damp rigs, and presto chango it's balanced with other EWAR, and most importantly they can actually be shot when they miss a jam akin to the other recons.
This
|
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 01:53:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 04/08/2008 01:55:03 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 04/08/2008 01:54:42
Originally by: ddred
falcon cost: 80M insurance cost: 4.6M insurance payout: 14.6M real cost of a falcon:70M Falcon fittings+rigs: 40M
tempest cost: 77M insurance cost:31M insurance payout:104M rea cost of a tempest:4M 3x armour rigs: 45M T2 fittings+faction/T2 ammo+drones: 35M Real cost of fitted Tempest: 84M
Sorry, that's it. Falcons are likely to have a nice 40-ish M in fittings too, which brings us to roughly 110M loss cost to 84M loss cost. Which isn't exactly 17:1 now, making the basic premise of your argument wrong.
Of course, we can bring up other recons in the discussion. Which cost the same or more. And are way less effective (see: damps). What then?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 04:16:00 -
[29]
Fly a Falcon for awhile and you will learn real quick how to counter them. Two damps on a Falcon and it's useless. Missing one cycle on a good sniper fit BS and the Falcon either dies or warps out. Get a drone boat near a Falcon and ECM becomes irrelevant, he either warps out or you bump him and he dies. Get a missile boat within range with FOF's and it dies quickly. Getting perma jammed with multi-specs even with ECCM fitted is not that ridiculous. If I fit 5 multispecs with good skill and 3 signal distortion amps in the lows and put all of them on one target with a 38 point sensor strength by chances are still extremely good. One Falcon even highly skilled will not perma jam 3 battleships. He will miss a cycle and a few good vollies will cause him to warp out.
|
reivol
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 06:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Inspiration
They are also very good anti-capital weapons, they can jam a carrier most of the time if it has only 2 ECCM fitted (that's half the med slots on some carriers).
We aren't flying the same falcons ... or you haven't ever stepped into one ... a falcon - perma-jamming a carrier, are you serious ? and btw what are you doing about the fighters of the said carrier ? are you jamming all of them, or wiping them out with your super-mega overpowered smartbombs ?
Originally by: Inspiration
It is overpowered in several ways:
1. You need at least 3 ECCM on your anti support ships to have a chance (most non capital ships don't even come close to a decent base sensor strength to make ECCM wort it). 2. You need to have 2 sensor boosters at least to have a decent chance of even locking a falcon at range. 3. You have to sacrifice ALL of you personal tank in order to fit the needed modules. 4. You will have next to no DPS after all this and any weapon that hit at that range, will take an eternity to arrive at target (cruise missiles) 5. Its absolute, you do not loose some locks or hit less...no you are obsolete completely (more on that later).
OK, that's clear, you absolutely don't know what you're talking about <= that's an absolute 1. Even without any ECCM you have a chance to not being jammed, with only one ECCM on a cruiser-class ship (let alone a BS class one), you won't be perma-jammed, that's not possible (or you are extremely unlucky or the falcon's pilot should try and buy loterie ticket) 2. mouahahahahaha, or you'll need an eagle, or a muninn, or an inty, or any sniper BS 3. lol 4. lol - btw you don't need dps to one shoot a falcon 5. lol - you clearly don't know how is working ECM, or you haven't played this game since a loooong time
Originally by: Inspiration
There is a good solution to this all tho, and it wont take more then 1 programmer a few hours of coding!
Make ECM work in a non absolute way
`
well this already has been done last year ....
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |