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Mkhai Bastion
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.04 12:20:00 -
[1]
Could not find anything in search function pertaining to dreads on this matter
Are all of these shield tanked?
A long term goal of mine is to either pilot a dread, or get into carriers using Minmatar ships. I am organizing the skill progression now and see that I can go either shield, or armor tank for Minmatar. Which would be most efficient for a dread?
This would then determine which smaller ship classes I would be able to utilize most effectively with the least amount of cross-training involved over what Minmatar already require.
Thanks for your help
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Wil Smithx
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2008.08.04 12:25:00 -
[2]
Well you get more tankable dps with a shield tank.
But the nag is a dreadful ship, your better off with any other dread TBH. And not by a short measure.
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Bronson Hughes
The. Conspiracy
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Posted - 2008.08.04 12:43:00 -
[3]
Capital ships tend to follow their racial preferences for tanking: Gallente and Amarr are better off armor tanked, Caldari are better off shield tanked, and Minmatar can do either but neither exceptionally well.
At the moment, the Naglfar is generally considered to be the worst of the dreadnoughts by a significant margin: skill intensive, low DPS, sub-par tank. Keep these things in mind before you start a very long training session. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Wil Smithx
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2008.08.04 12:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Capital ships tend to follow their racial preferences for tanking: Gallente and Amarr are better off armor tanked, Caldari are better off shield tanked, and Minmatar can do either but neither exceptionally well.
At the moment, the Naglfar is generally considered to be the worst of the dreadnoughts by a significant margin: skill intensive, low DPS, sub-par tank. Keep these things in mind before you start a very long training session.
Gallente are agruable, get better dps tanks using shield on the thanatos, not sure about the moros but using shield mods on thats opens up lows for mag stabs
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Draeca
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.08.04 12:52:00 -
[5]
Also, keep in mind that Naglfar is vertical. ___
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.04 12:59:00 -
[6]
Don't listen to the comments about how bad the Minmatar dread is. While I completely and totally agree with them in those statements, by the time you finish training for one, it will likely have been directly or indirectly buffed. --
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Wil Smithx
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2008.08.04 13:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis Don't listen to the comments about how bad the Minmatar dread is. While I completely and totally agree with them in those statements, by the time you finish training for one, it will likely have been directly or indirectly buffed.
tbh nothing short of an extra turret and a boost to all projectiles in general can save your sorry excuse for a capital.
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.04 13:05:00 -
[8]
I don't fly it, but I'm sure it will be buffed within a year, which sounds like when this guy is going to be jumping in one. --
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bloomich
Caldari In Siders
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Posted - 2008.08.04 13:09:00 -
[9]
Edited by: bloomich on 04/08/2008 13:09:54
Originally by: Mkhai Bastion Could not find anything in search function pertaining to dreads on this matter
Are all of these shield tanked?
A long term goal of mine is to either pilot a dread, or get into carriers using Minmatar ships. I am organizing the skill progression now and see that I can go either shield, or armor tank for Minmatar. Which would be most efficient for a dread?
This would then determine which smaller ship classes I would be able to utilize most effectively with the least amount of cross-training involved over what Minmatar already require.
Thanks for your help
Dreads are only used to fight capitals or shoot POS. Thats it. And capital fights are only possible if you are part of a pvp alliance since carebear alliances are too afraid to enter into capital fights. And even then, cap fights are extreamly rare, average of 1 every month or so.
Minmatar dread can instant hit and uses no cap, so you can always jump out in danger when you are shootng pos. Pheonix has the same issue but its just missiles which are bad since in capfights, carriers smartbombing to neutralise all drones will kill your missiles.
Revelations use cap so it has major cap problems, making it easy to take out. Moros has good drones so it can kill tacklers, and its cap usage is not that bad.
First ask youself, do you know what youa re planning to use a dread for? You cannot use them for missions, there are purely a pvp tool. (unless you mine veld in them like chribba)
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Mkhai Bastion
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.04 13:48:00 -
[10]
Bloomich, yes I am aware of their usage...uhh, in general. I have every intention of being in 0.0 and utilizing one of these ships for fleet purposes. I even have an alliance and corp. I am striving to build sp/skill sets towards. All in due course...of course.
I have read a great deal about the deficit which exists for Minmatar ships/weapons right now, but I will stay with them as they are the only race I am interested in. Their ships and story have an appeal which the other races lack for me.
It will be a slow, but steady progression. Your answers will help to streamline the time wastage, so thanks again!
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Wil Smithx
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2008.08.04 13:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 04/08/2008 13:09:54
Originally by: Mkhai Bastion Could not find anything in search function pertaining to dreads on this matter
Are all of these shield tanked?
A long term goal of mine is to either pilot a dread, or get into carriers using Minmatar ships. I am organizing the skill progression now and see that I can go either shield, or armor tank for Minmatar. Which would be most efficient for a dread?
This would then determine which smaller ship classes I would be able to utilize most effectively with the least amount of cross-training involved over what Minmatar already require.
Thanks for your help
Dreads are only used to fight capitals or shoot POS. Thats it. And capital fights are only possible if you are part of a pvp alliance since carebear alliances are too afraid to enter into capital fights. And even then, cap fights are extreamly rare, average of 1 every month or so.
Minmatar dread can instant hit and uses no cap, so you can always jump out in danger when you are shootng pos. Pheonix has the same issue but its just missiles which are bad since in capfights, carriers smartbombing to neutralise all drones will kill your missiles.
Revelations use cap so it has major cap problems, making it easy to take out. Moros has good drones so it can kill tacklers, and its cap usage is not that bad.
First ask youself, do you know what youa re planning to use a dread for? You cannot use them for missions, there are purely a pvp tool. (unless you mine veld in them like chribba)
the rev is obviously the best dread... it deals twice as much damage as the nag and doesn't have cap problems unless its under heavy neut, in which case any capital ship just dies.
Also you cant jump out if your in touble... Siege Mode!
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.04 14:46:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 04/08/2008 14:47:13 Revelation - Moros - Pheonix - Nag is the order for Dreads, the Revelation is far superior. The Rev does 72% more dps then the Nag according to Insurg calculations (even half of that is major).
Archon - Thanatos - Chimera - Nid is the order for Carriers, although in the right kind of gang, like very large RR carrier gangs, the Nid and Thanatos are far better then the Archon and Chimera dispite the Archon and Chimera having better personal tanks.
But the 'correct dread' is the Revelation for sure. ----
GO BLUE!! |
Adyriana
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Posted - 2008.08.04 15:00:00 -
[13]
The minmatar dread, naglfar, is rumored to be the worst dreadnought out there by a pretty good margin. CCP needs to smack it with the boosthammer a couple... of hundred times
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bloomich
Caldari In Siders
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Posted - 2008.08.04 15:10:00 -
[14]
Edited by: bloomich on 04/08/2008 15:10:15
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 04/08/2008 14:47:13 Revelation - Moros - Pheonix - Nag is the order for Dreads, the Revelation is far superior. The Rev does 72% more dps then the Nag according to Insurg calculations (even half of that is major).
Archon - Thanatos - Chimera - Nid is the order for Carriers, although in the right kind of gang, like very large RR carrier gangs, the Nid and Thanatos are far better then the Archon and Chimera dispite the Archon and Chimera having better personal tanks.
But the 'correct dread' is the Revelation for sure.
I disagree. Rev has smallist cargo space meaning 2 less seige cycles typically. This means a lot actually.
Rev also does least DPS on the most standard type of deathstar tower - Minmatar towers that have built in massive EM/Therm resist.
Rev is good in that its easy to manage ammo for it. But if you are jumped in the middle of attacking a pos, the attackers typically let you use a few seige cycles first so Revs loose out here, espeically when capfights last a few hours.
Revs have severe problems running a rep when firing. Most rev pilots cease firing to conserve cap so they come out of seige at the magic 72% cap.
The Nag does have its issues. However the pheonix is worse IMO. The Moros and the Rev are good dreads since moros's can rip apart tacklers and revs are straight up easier to manage. But every dread has a problem. There are no perfect dreads.
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.04 15:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 04/08/2008 14:47:13 Revelation - Moros - Pheonix - Nag is the order for Dreads, the Revelation is far superior. The Rev does 72% more dps then the Nag according to Insurg calculations (even half of that is major).
Archon - Thanatos - Chimera - Nid is the order for Carriers, although in the right kind of gang, like very large RR carrier gangs, the Nid and Thanatos are far better then the Archon and Chimera dispite the Archon and Chimera having better personal tanks.
But the 'correct dread' is the Revelation for sure.
I hope you've counted for range here as well. But I'll agree, so long as you're talking that you have both sufficient protection from fleet, good skills, and some other dread to help you with firepower diversity.
I was not aware that the Archon was quite that good though.
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Bronson Hughes
The. Conspiracy
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Posted - 2008.08.04 15:44:00 -
[16]
Adding some to my previous comments:
As things stand right now (and this is a rather large caveat because things change), here is what I've gathered is the current standings of the four dreadnoughts:
1. The Revelation. It does best what Dreads are supposed to do: kill capital ships and siege POSes. It's very useful in laggy situations because you don't have to worry about reloading ammo, it's got a mean tank, and, barring heavy cap warfare, it's got enough cap to fire until its target dies or it does. It's limited to EM/Therm damage, but damage types play less of a role in capital ship warfare.
2. The Moros. It's got the best non-siege DPS of the dreadnoughts and it's massive drone bonus makes it the most flexible dreadnought. After the upcoming nano-nerf, a Moros flying Warrior IIs will be able to seriously mess up most small/fast ships. A Blaster Moros dropped right on top of another capital ship will melt it in very short order, but it's limited to rails for most situation so it's capital weapon DPS is fairly low. It's relatively skill intensive since it's a split weapon-system ship, but it's not nearly as bad as the Naglfar and the benefits far outweigh the extra time spent on training especially if you plan to move on to carriers.
3. The Phoenix. It probably has the best active capital tank of all of the dreads in terms of raw incoming DPS absorbed and it can sport a mean buffer tank too. It's high alpha-strike makes it very handy for one-shotting heavily painted and webbed battleships. Capital torpedoes have serious issues right now with smartbombs being able to kill them fairly easily, so it's not hard to reduse the Phoenix's DPS to drones only; once this issue gets resolved Phoenixes will be far more useful. It's excellent for shooting at long ranges, but the torps take forever to cover those ranges.
4. The Naglfar. "It's frickin' vertical", but it's split weapon system and balanced slot layout make it hard to fit effectively. It doesn't have enough CPU to mount a good shield tank, and it doesn't have enough lows to mount a really strong armor tank. On paper it should do good DPS since it's got 4 cap-free capital weapons and bonuses for all of them, but in practice it does pretty badly because you end up with either too few damage mods or too little tank. The Naglfar's main problem from my point of view is that it lacks a clearly defined role that the other three dreads have, and it's a very expensive ship to be a 'Jack-of-All-Trades-Master-of-None'.
Again, these aren't hard-and-fast comparisons, just the sum of the 'tribal knowledge' that I've absorbed during my time learning about capital ships. All of the dreadnoughts are useful and you shouldn't necessarily train for one just because it's the 'the best' right now, just be aware before you start down a long training path that some of them may do the job better. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.04 15:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Archon - Thanatos - Chimera - Nid is the order for Carriers, although in the right kind of gang, like very large RR carrier gangs, the Nid and Thanatos are far better then the Archon and Chimera dispite the Archon and Chimera having better personal tanks.
Hmz i disagree. Thanatos is actually one of the weaker carriers because its bonus doesnt help anyone. Resist bonus is good for when youre getting RR. Nid is good, provided its properly fitted, and chimera and archon are both very decent.
Key however for every carrier is that it needs to be fitted right..
We will not walk in fear of one another. |
Bronson Hughes
The. Conspiracy
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Posted - 2008.08.04 17:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Thanatos is actually one of the weaker carriers because its bonus doesnt help anyone.
I beg to differ on the last part; it helps reduce incoming fire by killing hostiles faster. I do agree with you however that as a logistics platform it's weaker than the other carriers.
Originally by: Sokratesz
Key however for every carrier is that it needs to be fitted right.
Agreed for all capital ships, but knowing which ship to use for what jobs is just as important as fitting them properly. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Ast3r0iD
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.04 18:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis Don't listen to the comments about how bad the Minmatar dread is. While I completely and totally agree with them in those statements, by the time you finish training for one, it will likely have been directly or indirectly buffed.
If your going to take the time to train for a dread and you have low skils it would probably be quicker going for gallente than training the two weapon system needed for the mini dread. Gallente dread is decent as is its carrier.
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Bronson Hughes
The. Conspiracy
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Posted - 2008.08.04 18:33:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 04/08/2008 18:34:06
Originally by: Ast3r0iD
If your going to take the time to train for a dread and you have low skils it would probably be quicker going for gallente than training the two weapon system needed for the mini dread. Gallente dread is decent as is its carrier.
The Moros is a split weapon system ship just like the Naglfar; it has bonuses for capital hybrids and drones. The only difference is that the drone training is useful regardless of what ship you're flying, espeically if you're moving on to carriers. (EDIT: Many Moros pilots, myself included, regard Drone Interfacing V as a requirement to get the most out of your Moros and that's just as long a train as a second capital weapon system)
While you can fly a Moros without very high-skilled T2 drones, doing so is rather like flying a Naglfar using capital projectile turrets but only battleship-class launchers.
The Phoenix and the Revelation are really the only single-weapon dreadnoughts in the game. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.08.04 19:14:00 -
[21]
Yeah, the drones do add a nice versatility side advantage to the moros. The rev might have it beat in pure damage potential but having 1k dps that works against smaller ships is a pretty big deal too... good against fighters and anchorable defenses if nothing else.
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Kalana Eargon
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Posted - 2008.08.04 22:03:00 -
[22]
1) Naglfar is a horrible dreadnought, even with it's 5 high slots it gets bad dps, you need to put both gyrostabalizers and ballistic control systems, then your low on CPU and low slots leaving no room for much of an armor tank.
2) Shields are the best way to go on a Naglfar, although with the already tight CPU and limited low-slots, keeping cap stable for a while like other dreadnoughts will be a problem.
3) You would need to cross train for missiles and projectiles, this makes the Naglfar very skill intensive.
4) If you do decide to armor tank, yes it can tank more and for longer... but your DPS will be greatly reduced, and I was always aware that DPS was the point of a dread for Siege.
5) Don't fly a Naglfar, if you have missile skills and shield skills hell you can trian for the Phoenix, just a month off the road and it will allow you to fly caldari ships. Also, if you decide to stick with Minmatar capital ships why go for the Naglfar when you have their carrier next to it, they are the best reppers with their bonus. There tank isn't as good as other ship, but their repping ability is invaluable to a fleet.
6) Last and not least, the BIGGEST reason a Naglfar is not a good ship is because of its looks, it's vertical, and Minmatar, if your going to spend a few billion isk for a ship, it had better look pretty damn awesome.
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.04 22:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kalana Eargon
6) Last and not least, the BIGGEST reason a Naglfar is not a good ship is because of its looks, it's vertical, and Minmatar, if your going to spend a few billion isk for a ship, it had better look pretty damn awesome.
I vote for a forum ban, all those in favor? --
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.04 22:38:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: Kalana Eargon
6) Last and not least, the BIGGEST reason a Naglfar is not a good ship is because of its looks, it's vertical, and Minmatar, if your going to spend a few billion isk for a ship, it had better look pretty damn awesome.
I vote for a forum ban, all those in favor?
WTF! It's freakin' vertical. That's like, the ONLY reason to fly it.
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Rajere
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.05 10:48:00 -
[25]
The only reason to fly a nag is peace of mind. Doesn't matter what the fight is or who is involved, you are going to be called primary, and you are going to lose your dread. Therefore, any time a nag undocks you can bet it's fully insured. 600mil is kinda a steep price to insure a dread on a whim, unless you know its a suicide op most dreads don't get insured, especially if there's little to no expectations of encountering resistance. So when the surprise-sex hotdrops in, alot of those dread pilots are only getting default insurance payouts. Naglfar's though, they die to POS gunner alts, nevermind other dreads. So if you fly a nag, every nag after the first only costs you about 600mil + fittings, rather than 1.2bil + fittings after taking into account insurance costs + payouts. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
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Bronson Hughes
The. Conspiracy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 13:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Rajere So if you fly a nag, every nag after the first only costs you about 600mil + fittings, rather than 1.2bil + fittings after taking into account insurance costs + payouts.
Assuming you don't get lucky and live through enough fights for your insurance to expire.... -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 14:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Wil Smithx
Originally by: Marcus Druallis Don't listen to the comments about how bad the Minmatar dread is. While I completely and totally agree with them in those statements, by the time you finish training for one, it will likely have been directly or indirectly buffed.
tbh nothing short of an extra turret and a boost to all projectiles in general can save your sorry excuse for a capital.
It took ccp two years to boost amar. The nag is going to suck for a very long time...
But yea its upanddown!!!!!
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Rajere
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.07 13:57:00 -
[28]
Quote: Assuming you don't get lucky and live through enough fights for your insurance to expire....
Live through enough fights? Surely you jest! If you're going to be away from the game for 3 months, obviously don't insure it (or any other ship) til you get back. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
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Wideen
Body Count Inc. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.08.07 14:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Draeca Also, keep in mind that Naglfar is vertical.
This is actually a tactical advantage as you can maneuver between tight spots such as asteroids etc. Strongly recommended!
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Bronson Hughes
The. Conspiracy
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Posted - 2008.08.07 16:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Wideen
Originally by: Draeca Also, keep in mind that Naglfar is vertical.
This is actually a tactical advantage as you can maneuver between tight spots such as asteroids etc. Strongly recommended!
But only if you're moving along the tactical plane; if you're moving up or down your ship will re-align and start bumping into 'roids left and right. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
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