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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:41:00 -
[1]
What is the one word everyone hates? nerf! Nerfing is bad, if we keep nerfing the game is going to become lame because of all the classes of ship that become useless. In my opinion ccp should only buff things. For example....
Nanos: Buff the tracking speeds of turrets and missile velocities. (Besides i think the nano mechanics are fine personally i mean they are so expensive that if you fork out that much isk you deserve ur nano)
Tanking inbalances: Buff the inbalanced ships up to the level of the other one.
The point is simple, ccp should stop nerfing when they can break out the buff stick. People are happier with buffs than nerfs.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:43:00 -
[2]
There's been over 9000 buffs added to the game over the past 100 years tbh.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:43:00 -
[3]
eve has been here 5 years
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:45:00 -
[4]
Anyone want to take this?
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Queeria
Galactic Bull-dike Society II
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:46:00 -
[5]
Edited by: *****ia on 05/08/2008 02:46:49
Originally by: Dirk Magnum There's been over 9000 buffs added to the game over the past 100 years tbh.
I concur. The past 100 years have seen lots of buffs and nowhere near enough nerfs. I'm glad CCP is finally taking steps to correct their game.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:47:00 -
[6]
Edited by: masternerdguy on 05/08/2008 02:52:36 *read next post i expanded on this*
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:52:00 -
[7]
lemme put it another way.
There are different ways to play in eve 1. DPS: you put out as much damage as possible 2. Tank: you try to absorb as much damage as possible 3. EWAR: your only strength is the ability to disrupt other players from shooting you or your team. 4. Nano: Using speed to escape because noone wants to make their own nano ships (you heard me caldari militia). 5. Suprise: You use cloaking to sneak up on someone. 6. Sniping: Get out of their range and hit em hard. 7. Espionage: Using advanced tech to track enemy movements unseen. 8. Astrometrics: Scanning people down for a variety of purposes. 9. Industry guru: Making, buying, and selling for isk. 10. miner: lol speaks for itself
The point is the reason eve is great is because of all the different ways to play.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:57:00 -
[8]
But the only way people seemed to want to counter nanos was with either Minmatar Recons or nano'ing their own ships. It cuts back on the diversity of play, not enhances it.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:57:00 -
[9]
why cant you nano a raven
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Queeria
Galactic Bull-dike Society II
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: masternerdguy why cant you nano a raven
You can but they suck, and not many do it.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:02:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 05/08/2008 03:01:54 And people would just outrun the cruise missiles or torps anyway.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:02:00 -
[12]
invest in a web and a nanoed inty. Then you can tackle em. problem solved.
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Queeria
Galactic Bull-dike Society II
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:03:00 -
[13]
Edited by: *****ia on 05/08/2008 03:03:22 I know! Fit an officer web to teh raven! Problem solved.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:05:00 -
[14]
the point is that i think nerfing is going to kill eve and if (ok is the megaphone on? wait no? lemme change the battery.....there) CCP is gonna be sorry because lots of people will quit.
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Flamewave
Crimson Moon Society
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:09:00 -
[15]
I believe the reason they don't simply boost missile speed is because the game engine can't handle it, so nerfing ship speed is their only real option. Don't quote me, however, I don't have a source to back that up. __________
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Flamewave I believe the reason they don't simply boost missile speed is because the game engine can't handle it, so nerfing ship speed is their only real option. Don't quote me, however, I don't have a source to back that up.
i quoted you, besides this game is in stackless python which supports infinitely long integers.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: masternerdguy the point is that i think nerfing is going to kill eve and if (ok is the megaphone on? wait no? lemme change the battery.....there) CCP is gonna be sorry because lots of people will quit.
nerfing and rebalancing everything are very very different thing.
nerfing only effects one ship or class of ships.
balancing changes the way the whole game is played and works.
the speed changes with basic tech 2 equipment on SiSi right now have some ship moving faster than before. In fact it's just changing the run away speed. they want to nerf missles to balance with the changes because with the rebalance missles as a weapon class are now overpowered.
much more work is needed.
part of the idea is that when it comes to extra speed mods they are now about 60% as effective as they used to be and webs are now also 60% as effective as they used to be. while normal ships are in fact just as effective as they used to be resulting in an overall nerf for newer players, while not having any change due to web changes on implants and such other than top speed which was used for running away in half a second.
Thus once all is said is done and everything is brought in line eve will play the same as before as if it was never nerfed. The only difference being nanos can't go form combat speed to 10km/s just to run away. instead speed will be more about ditating range and stuff.
However in it's current state the speed changes need a LOT of work.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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Brugar
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: masternerdguy What is the one word everyone hates? nerf! Nerfing is bad, if we keep nerfing the game is going to become lame because of all the classes of ship that become useless. In my opinion ccp should only buff things. For example....
Nanos: Buff the tracking speeds of turrets and missile velocities. (Besides i think the nano mechanics are fine personally i mean they are so expensive that if you fork out that much isk you deserve ur nano)
Tanking inbalances: Buff the inbalanced ships up to the level of the other one.
The point is simple, ccp should stop nerfing when they can break out the buff stick. People are happier with buffs than nerfs.
Because if they keep buffing... it will turn out like WoW. Everyone doing thousands of points of damage. B-O-R-I-N-G!
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:18:00 -
[19]
this goes beyond nanos! think of the future!
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: masternerdguy this goes beyond nanos! think of the future!
listen if something is broken CCP must fix it.
deal with it.
Eve has always been like this.
think of the past 5 years honestly.
you used to be able to USE 3 MWD at once.
when they nerfed it, people said "but using three MWDs drains your cap there is no reason for saying it's overpowered"
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:25:00 -
[21]
i think using 3 mwd is a good idea!
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: masternerdguy i think using 3 mwd is a good idea!
someone get that picture with picard please.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: masternerdguy What is the one word everyone hates? nerf! Nerfing is bad, if we keep nerfing the game is going to become lame because of all the classes of ship that become useless. In my opinion ccp should only buff things. For example....
Nanos: Buff the tracking speeds of turrets and missile velocities. (Besides i think the nano mechanics are fine personally i mean they are so expensive that if you fork out that much isk you deserve ur nano)
Tanking inbalances: Buff the inbalanced ships up to the level of the other one.
The point is simple, ccp should stop nerfing when they can break out the buff stick. People are happier with buffs than nerfs.
Yeah, buff everything. Buff missiles to not have travel time. Problem solved... for everyone else, but I'm afraid you'll still call this a nano nerf, because you still won't be invincible.
If you buff everything, instead of bringing the one overpowered, game-breaking, never-intended-in-the-first-place mechanic in line, then we'll end up with Counterstrike: Space.
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Zurrar
Gallente Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:29:00 -
[24]
Originally by: masternerdguy lemme put it another way.
There are different ways to play in eve 1. DPS: you put out as much damage as possible 2. Tank: you try to absorb as much damage as possible 3. EWAR: your only strength is the ability to disrupt other players from shooting you or your team. 4. Nano: Using speed to escape because noone wants to make their own nano ships (you heard me caldari militia). 5. Suprise: You use cloaking to sneak up on someone. 6. Sniping: Get out of their range and hit em hard. 7. Espionage: Using advanced tech to track enemy movements unseen. 8. Astrometrics: Scanning people down for a variety of purposes. 9. Industry guru: Making, buying, and selling for isk. 10. miner: lol speaks for itself
The point is the reason eve is great is because of all the different ways to play.
1. with the HP buff, and rigs, dps doesnt mean much anymore. its who has more ships or can last longer. 2. see 1 3. limited to mostly scorp, bb, falcon, rook, widow (which sucks), and drones 4. riighht, its the fact your invulnerable to EVERYTHING... its the 'i win or i run' button 5. not much sneaking with local now is there. 6. with nanos, sniping is DEAD read it DEAD 7. noob alts? 8. cloaky cloaky me no proby 9. ookay? i built a apoc that lasted 2 hours before being primaried on a gate camp 10. boooorrrriiiinnnnggggg
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Brugar
Originally by: masternerdguy What is the one word everyone hates? nerf! Nerfing is bad, if we keep nerfing the game is going to become lame because of all the classes of ship that become useless. In my opinion ccp should only buff things. For example....
Nanos: Buff the tracking speeds of turrets and missile velocities. (Besides i think the nano mechanics are fine personally i mean they are so expensive that if you fork out that much isk you deserve ur nano)
Tanking inbalances: Buff the inbalanced ships up to the level of the other one.
The point is simple, ccp should stop nerfing when they can break out the buff stick. People are happier with buffs than nerfs.
Because if they keep buffing... it will turn out like WoW. Everyone doing thousands of points of damage. B-O-R-I-N-G!
Lol the damage units are sort of arbitrary. They could multiply all damage and HP rep and so forth in the game by over 9000 or divide it by over 9000 and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:30:00 -
[26]
my idea is simple, oppose all nerfs
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex
Originally by: Brugar
Originally by: masternerdguy What is the one word everyone hates? nerf! Nerfing is bad, if we keep nerfing the game is going to become lame because of all the classes of ship that become useless. In my opinion ccp should only buff things. For example....
Nanos: Buff the tracking speeds of turrets and missile velocities. (Besides i think the nano mechanics are fine personally i mean they are so expensive that if you fork out that much isk you deserve ur nano)
Tanking inbalances: Buff the inbalanced ships up to the level of the other one.
The point is simple, ccp should stop nerfing when they can break out the buff stick. People are happier with buffs than nerfs.
Because if they keep buffing... it will turn out like WoW. Everyone doing thousands of points of damage. B-O-R-I-N-G!
Lol the damage units are sort of arbitrary. They could multiply all damage and HP rep and so forth in the game by over 9000 or divide it by over 9000 and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.
however what if they multiplied all ships speed by 200?
then battleship would be the same percent slower as every other ship class, however in eve relevant speed isn't important, what's important is the difference in absolute speed.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:33:00 -
[28]
...... this has nothing to do with global buffs!
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: masternerdguy my idea is simple, oppose all nerfs
well you won't last long in any mmorpg lol. have you ever made a game before? like even a simple card game? or pen and paper game?
please go try to make up where if something is broken you buff everything else and see how it all works out for you.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.08.05 05:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Zurrar 8. cloaky cloaky me no proby
ROFL that's great... imagine this sentence spoken in the voice of Peter Griffin
Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
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Bai ZongTong
The Revolutionary Guard
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Posted - 2008.08.05 05:08:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Zurrar
Originally by: masternerdguy lemme put it another way.
There are different ways to play in eve 1. DPS: you put out as much damage as possible 2. Tank: you try to absorb as much damage as possible 3. EWAR: your only strength is the ability to disrupt other players from shooting you or your team. 4. Nano: Using speed to escape because noone wants to make their own nano ships (you heard me caldari militia). 5. Suprise: You use cloaking to sneak up on someone. 6. Sniping: Get out of their range and hit em hard. 7. Espionage: Using advanced tech to track enemy movements unseen. 8. Astrometrics: Scanning people down for a variety of purposes. 9. Industry guru: Making, buying, and selling for isk. 10. miner: lol speaks for itself
The point is the reason eve is great is because of all the different ways to play.
1. with the HP buff, and rigs, dps doesnt mean much anymore. its who has more ships or can last longer. 2. see 1 3. limited to mostly scorp, bb, falcon, rook, widow (which sucks), and drones 4. riighht, its the fact your invulnerable to EVERYTHING... its the 'i win or i run' button 5. not much sneaking with local now is there. 6. with nanos, sniping is DEAD read it DEAD 7. noob alts? 8. cloaky cloaky me no proby 9. ookay? i built a apoc that lasted 2 hours before being primaried on a gate camp 10. boooorrrriiiinnnnggggg
this. --- Want some YARRHHHS? The Revolutionary Guard Pirate Corp Looking for Members Uncensored KB |
Taradis
Amarr The Imperial Assassins Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.05 05:41:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum There's been over 9000 buffs added to the game over the past 100 years tbh.
OMFG eve has been round 100yrs didn't relize PC's that could handle eve (specially the new graphics) have been round that long someone has sum splaining ta do
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Taradis
Amarr The Imperial Assassins Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.05 05:43:00 -
[33]
Originally by: masternerdguy why cant you nano a raven
That's just silly nano raven them things are slower than a snail. Armor tanking raven I have seen but a Nano'd raven interesting
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Galan Amarias
Amarr The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.05 06:09:00 -
[34]
And because I can't resist even the really obvious nano troll.
You can not "buff" anything without also "Nerfing" something.
Case in point. If I "buff" laser dammage. I have effectivly "nerfed" all sheilds and armor against lasers.
Since more people have shields and armor than have lasers, it's sad but true, it will be described on the comunity as a nerf.
Finally, Nano whines the fastest.
-Galan
CSM fails nano |
Veldya
Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.08.05 06:11:00 -
[35]
Nerf is a buff, it is a buff to anyone not nerfed. You can counter a nerf by leaving it as it is and buffing a million different other things or you can nerf one thing and in effect buff a million different other things without having to put the same amount of effort into it.
Nerf to nano = buff to me because I don't like nano and don't use nano because they break mechanics that were designed when such speeds were impossible.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.08.05 06:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Taradis
Originally by: masternerdguy why cant you nano a raven
That's just silly nano raven them things are slower than a snail. Armor tanking raven I have seen but a Nano'd raven interesting
Before the nano nerf on sisi I could get a cruise Raven to permarun at about 5700ms with the basic gang velocity bonus and hg snakes. However with no damage mods it did pitiful dps plus the fact that turret nanocruisers pwnd it and would only really work in groups. Didn't Burn Eden do this for a while anyways?
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
mentalmonkey
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2008.08.05 06:37:00 -
[37]
Edited by: mentalmonkey on 05/08/2008 06:41:12 4/10 just because it managed to bait so many, despite every ill-punctuated reply from OP arriving like a picture of a troll being slapped in the other poster's faces.
(Edit) If we are doing voices now this should be spoken by Yahtzee in your heads
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steave435
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.08.05 06:38:00 -
[38]
From the dev blog:
Quote: If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds. Even when we did some basic tests on our internal servers, with special high-speed missiles, we quickly noticed Destiny (our physics engine) behaving very strangely.
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KeLLaX
HUNLAR the Almighty Scalar Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.05 07:07:00 -
[39]
actually I'm on the side of buffing missiles instead of nerfing nanos too. Not that I want to whine about nanos, but it's obvious that there are some ships which do not have any other tanking option. Like rapier / huginn; those ships have crowded med slots with tackling gears which prevent it from shield tanking, and too few lot slots for armor tanking. I honestly wonder about CCPs solution to that.
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RiotRick
Black-Sun Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.08.05 07:30:00 -
[40]
If you quit eve, could you buff my stuffz please?
The future is black. Brace for impact! |
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Deneb Webb
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.05 07:39:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Deneb Webb on 05/08/2008 07:40:11 I think this speed reduction is much needed. I recall Pre Trinity, Nano-ships were not likely, making 0.0 or low space a risk to travel in if you were alone. People who are griping about the speed nerf are, i think, the ones who trained up HAC, Recon, what have you specifically to be nano'ed and then trained the respective gunnery/missile skills. When this nerf does go live, itll be quite the feast taking down all those nanoship relying players who neglected to train supportive skills such as, mechanics, engineering, etc.
This will be exquisite
Edit: Typos, but meh
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Primnproper
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Posted - 2008.08.05 08:02:00 -
[42]
2 points...
1) Although i could see the need to remove ships which went a ludicras speeds I don't see why in the process most hacs going at 3k have now been removed.
2) Nerfing ruins games,
yes its easier,
yes it maintains the balance,
but a much better way to do it is to have an arms race, w
here there is constantly new technology being released that counters previous technology even till the point where ships from a few years ago have become obsolete,
of course to make this fair on new players it would mean that they would have to start able to use t2 instead of just t1 in the same way that all the kids today can use a computer or a mobile phone, it has become their base tech level.
I think this would lead to a much better living universe where new tactics were constantly being developed and old ones were going out of date.
It would however require much more work from ccp, but just because somethings hard doesn't mean its not the right thing to do... |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Imperial Servants
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Posted - 2008.08.05 08:13:00 -
[43]
There is no difference between nerfing or buffing, in principle. You either take a step to the left or right.
If you have a ship that can do 1k DPS and no other ship exceeds 500 DPS, then buffing every other ships to 1k DPS or nerfing 1 ship to 500 DPS, gives the same result. The ships are in line.
With the complexity of EvE, nerfing 1 ship to 500 DPS rather than 50 ships to 1000 DPS, results in fewer unexpected effects.
If you take the reverse, where 1 ship cannot exceed 500 DPS where every other ships does 1000 DPS, should we nerf all the other ships or just buff that 1 ship?
See, nerf or buff have the same effect. Not for you, but for the game as a whole.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.05 08:15:00 -
[44]
Originally by: masternerdguy invest in a web and a nanoed inty. Then you can tackle em. problem solved.
Yup, just burn straight into that Vagabond, that Huginn, that Zealot, that Deimos and Ishtar. There's a small chance your certain death won't completely be in vain; albeit not a big one
Also the "Buff, don't nerf!" argument is silly. Every time you buff one thing, you nerf another and vice versa. Sometimes it makes more sense when balancing to nerf 1 thing rather than buff 5 things.
If CCP only did buffs; All ships in EVE would go 20km/sec, do 6000 DPS, tank 7000 DPS, Tracking wouldn't exist, Missiles would do full damage to everything, etc etc
it would be ludicrous. ...
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2008.08.05 08:42:00 -
[45]
I have a solution for you! It's a great one, it'll fix everything! I jsut found ti while i was...
Umm...
*checks around*
Guys...
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Tzar'rim
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.05 08:45:00 -
[46]
People should stop thinking like a spoilt 5 yearold "OMG WAAAAH WANT COOKIE!!!!!, GIEF BUFFZZZZ WAAAAAAHHHH!!!! HATE NERFZ WAAAAHHH!!!!" /stamp foot
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Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.05 08:49:00 -
[47]
Needs more jiggawatts tbh.
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Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.08.05 09:18:00 -
[48]
Nerfs are better. Else we end up with 4 billion HP, 200RAD tracking on 1400mm arty, flying 5million km/sec and being able to shoot 5 AU.
Nerfs are much better thank you.
Failed nano whine again.
--------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Kano Sekor
Amarr The Movement
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Posted - 2008.08.05 09:38:00 -
[49]
*Sings Whitney Houston-esque* "Un-nerf my ship, say youll buff me again" ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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ceyriot
Entropians on Vacation
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Posted - 2008.08.05 10:05:00 -
[50]
Edited by: ceyriot on 05/08/2008 10:06:11
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: masternerdguy i think using 3 mwd is a good idea!
someone get that picture with picard please.
Would that be the one?
Faction Store - Killboard |
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TrulyKosh
Gallente Solo for UNCLE
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Posted - 2008.08.05 11:13:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Taradis
Originally by: Dirk Magnum There's been over 9000 buffs added to the game over the past 100 years tbh.
OMFG eve has been round 100yrs didn't relize PC's that could handle eve (specially the new graphics) have been round that long someone has sum splaining ta do
You should have seen the first black&white version in pure ASCII gfx.
- used to be the vagabond
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Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari Firestar Drive Yards
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Posted - 2008.08.05 12:36:00 -
[52]
The more you buff the easier the game gets, so the more you have to tweak the environment to add challenge, then you find that you're in the same position again.
The problem with buffs is that people forget them, and just remember the nerfs. Both are required to balance a game.
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Plumpy McPudding
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Posted - 2008.08.05 12:39:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum There's been over 9000 buffs
WHAT 9000!? THERE'S NO WAY THAT CAN BE RIGHT! __________________________
Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.05 13:25:00 -
[54]
Originally by: masternerdguy What is the one word everyone hates? nerf! Nerfing is bad, if we keep nerfing the game is going to become lame because of all the classes of ship that become useless. In my opinion ccp should only buff things. For example....
Nanos: Buff the tracking speeds of turrets and missile velocities. (Besides i think the nano mechanics are fine personally i mean they are so expensive that if you fork out that much isk you deserve ur nano)
Tanking inbalances: Buff the inbalanced ships up to the level of the other one.
The point is simple, ccp should stop nerfing when they can break out the buff stick. People are happier with buffs than nerfs.
Great ideas, let's break the game more surely than any nerf ever could.
Like, giving any missile ship the ability to absolutely murder any small ship that doesn't have gistii MWD and polycarb rigs, or large guns hitting non-nanoed cruisers without issues. Great ideas, I said...
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 13:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: ceyriot Edited by: ceyriot on 05/08/2008 10:06:11
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: masternerdguy i think using 3 mwd is a good idea!
someone get that picture with picard please.
Would that be the one?
thank you
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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TheG2
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.08.05 13:34:00 -
[56]
Originally by: masternerdguy
Originally by: Flamewave I believe the reason they don't simply boost missile speed is because the game engine can't handle it, so nerfing ship speed is their only real option. Don't quote me, however, I don't have a source to back that up.
i quoted you, besides this game is in stackless python which supports infinitely long integers.
Never program, ever.
Buffs cause more problems because people flock to the newly buffed Item, nerfs don't have that result. Buffs are worse than Nerfs in many cases regarding balance.
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.08.05 13:38:00 -
[57]
Originally by: masternerdguy the point is that i think nerfing is going to kill eve and if (ok is the megaphone on? wait no? lemme change the battery.....there) CCP is gonna be sorry because lots of people will quit.
Well i hate to say it m8 but you think wrong, dont believe the crap you read on this forum, most of the players dont even come here.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:06:00 -
[58]
ok i had 2 sleep lemme reply to all the arguments.
nerf == buff, maybe but i think in the case of the nano for sure buff missile speeds.
troll == LOL. i am not a troll
buffing ruins games: well stats are relative
5au optimal range, 20million m/s ships 7 billion dps/tamk, i dont think ccp would ever allow stats to get that large.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: masternerdguy What is the one word everyone hates? nerf! Nerfing is bad, if we keep nerfing the game is going to become lame because of all the classes of ship that become useless. In my opinion ccp should only buff things. For example....
Nanos: Buff the tracking speeds of turrets and missile velocities. (Besides i think the nano mechanics are fine personally i mean they are so expensive that if you fork out that much isk you deserve ur nano)
Tanking inbalances: Buff the inbalanced ships up to the level of the other one.
The point is simple, ccp should stop nerfing when they can break out the buff stick. People are happier with buffs than nerfs.
Nano is broken - not everything else in the game. Thus, nano is going to be fixed, instead of everything else in the game broken in turn to accommodate nano. Deal.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 22:05:00 -
[60]
this isnt just about nanos
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 23:23:00 -
[61]
If you buff missiles, to be able to hit a nanoed ship, would that be considered a missile buff or a nano nerf? "Oh noes, you took away my only viable tank!"
A tank is supposed to mitigate damage, not completely remove it.
Also, consider the fact that any thing else that gets buffed will also be usable by nanoed craft...
To counter that little list of different play styles, I would have to say that every item on there can be dealt with by a nanoed vessel. The only way to counter the nanoed vessel is with another nanoed vessel. How can that be intended?
Why can some people not see that as a mechanic, speeds that nanos are able to achieve were never meant to be? Why do some resist an obvious balancing move that CCP said never should have been needed in the first place? Is it all about the isk? If that's the case, consider all the FOTMers in the past who's expensive setups were "nerfed," and how much isk they were unjustly robbed of when their mechanics changed to favor something else.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.06 01:35:00 -
[62]
good argument, but nerfing the nano is wrong!
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Zora
Gallente Community for Justice Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.06 03:20:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Zora on 06/08/2008 03:21:08 I don't usually post in nano/nerf threads, but I wanted to add a little thing to think about to this topic.
If you read the last dev blog, they point out that they ran simulations trying to boost missile speeds, and the physics engine began to produce all kinds of weirdos. Which is kind of symptomatic if a given system approaches a limit that was never designed to be broken. So in this isolated case, if you'd just go ahead and boost missile speeds, it just wouldn't work from a technical standpoint.
Instead, we're now looking at a nerf that will change combat mechanics quite a bit and produce all kinds of interesting side effects. If you take a look at sisi, battleships now have a base speed that is not much more than that of dreadnaughts (uff, they were slow space whales already before that... )
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.06 03:25:00 -
[64]
no! our battleships go as fast as dreads?!
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Zora
Gallente Community for Justice Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.06 03:33:00 -
[65]
I guess I'm overdramatizing a bit, but all BS base speeds were reduced by about 20m/s. E.g. the Abaddon's base velocity was reduced from 110m/s to 89 m/s with the current patch on sisi.
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.08.06 03:36:00 -
[66]
capitals must go 1m/s now
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Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:10:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Richard Angevian on 06/08/2008 04:14:05 Nerfing almost always is the favorite course of action for MMO Devs because it takes far less creativity to destroy than it does to create.
Buffing requires some real, actual brain work and creativity. Nerfing takes no more thought than a madman with a rather large knife and no moral restraint on trying it on everything he sees. Only Da Vinci could create the master works he painted. Any gibbering fool can weild a knife and cut it to ribbons. Hence, nerfs are far more common than actual enhancements.
The problem with the MMO industry is that it's vastly overextended, almost in a "Dot Com" bubble situation at this point, with far FAR too many pretenders in it who rushed to it because it was "hot" and the industry throws money at "Devs".
So you end up with a lot of non talents in the industry for the money riding on paper credentials. Just like the IT industry circa 2001.
Soon as the industry experiences a much needed crash and the pretender companies are removed from it, you will see a greater concentration of talent where it belongs: Working on the games that actually have a good concept and staying power. EVE is one of them.
Now, nerfs sometimes DO need to happen. Usually when the same aforementioned Devs-who-have-NO business being Devs try to actually create something. Nerfs are a tantamount admission of incompetence, and the larger they are, the more gross the incompetence is.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:12:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Richard Angevian Nerfing almost always is the favorite course of action for MMO Devs because it takes far less creativity to destroy than it does to create.
Buffing requires some real, actual brain work and creativity.
But in fact it's a boost to all ships that don't nano. and I'm not talking about the speed but in fact the web changes with the "nerf"
so it's a really just a big boost or something I don't care I'll stop trying to explain lol.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:13:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Grim Mercy on 06/08/2008 04:14:08
Originally by: Richard Angevian Nerfing almost always is the favorite course of action for MMO Devs because it takes far less creativity to destroy than it does to create.
Buffing requires some real, actual brain work and creativity. Nerfing takes no more thought than a madman with a rather large knife and no moral restraint on trying it on everything he sees. Only Da Vinci could create the master works he painted. Any gibbering fool can weild a knife and cut it to ribbons. Hence, nerfs are far more common than actual enhancements.
The problem with the MMO industry is that it's vastly overextended, almost in a "Dot Com" bubble situation at this point, with far FAR too many pretenders in it who rushed to it because it was "hot" and the industry throws money at "Devs".
So you end up with a lot of non talents in the industry for the money riding on paper credentials. Just like the IT industry circa 2001.
Soon as the industry experiences a much needed crash and the pretender companies are removed from it, you will see a greater concentration of talent where it belongs: Working on the games that actually have a good concept and staying power. EVE is one of them.
I'm going to have to go ahead and completely disagree with you here.
Buffing takes very little thought, and bringing something back into balance, or "nerfing," take some real dedication and work to bring about.
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Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Richard Angevian Nerfing almost always is the favorite course of action for MMO Devs because it takes far less creativity to destroy than it does to create.
Buffing requires some real, actual brain work and creativity.
But in fact it's a boost to all ships that don't nano. and I'm not talking about the speed but in fact the web changes with the "nerf"
so it's a really just a big boost or something I don't care I'll stop trying to explain lol.
Nearly every single ship in the game is slower, less agile, and less fun as a result of the changes.
People who don't fit speed mods are going to have ships that are unacceptably slow (and vulnerable). A Raven I tried on Sisi took about TWICE the time it takes to align to warp on the live server.
The irony is that the speed mods they claimed to not make a "must fit" are going to be even more so after this. And the nanoships will be even MORE dominant than they are now because the ships that weren't fast before are even slower now.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:22:00 -
[71]
Because to get frigates flying easily faster than HACs would mean it'd be trivial to get non-interceptors to fly over 5k/s. In other words, missiles would be useless except against battleships.
At some point you need to level things out so that they're the way they should be in terms of speed order (intys fastest, then frigates, then cruisers, then hacs, etc) and then tweak as necessary to make things the way they should play out.
Personally I'm ok with 2.5k/s HACs if they go and lower the base costs so that the price would fall out between 30-40m instead of 90-100m. The whole "why would I ever choose this over a battlecruiser" becomes more evident when HACs don't cost twice as much as one.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:25:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Richard Angevian
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Richard Angevian Nerfing almost always is the favorite course of action for MMO Devs because it takes far less creativity to destroy than it does to create.
Buffing requires some real, actual brain work and creativity.
But in fact it's a boost to all ships that don't nano. and I'm not talking about the speed but in fact the web changes with the "nerf"
so it's a really just a big boost or something I don't care I'll stop trying to explain lol.
Nearly every single ship in the game is slower, less agile, and less fun as a result of the changes.
People who don't fit speed mods are going to have ships that are unacceptably slow (and vulnerable). A Raven I tried on Sisi took about TWICE the time it takes to align to warp on the live server.
The irony is that the speed mods they claimed to not make a "must fit" are going to be even more so after this. And the nanoships will be even MORE dominant than they are now because the ships that weren't fast before are even slower now.
Align time is all relative. When you're in anything larger than a cruiser (which could theoretically fly off before getting locked from a person who isn't sensor boosting), align time only matters relative to other fleets of similar composition. IE, if you have a BS fleet that aligns in 15 seconds running away from a BS fleet that aligns in 15 seconds, there's no difference if both of you suddenly take 20 seconds, because its not like you're avoiding locks at 15 seconds anyway. I'll agree though that slower align = less fun and more boring - I just don't agree that its really much of a tactical disadvantage in practice.
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Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:32:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Because to get frigates flying easily faster than HACs would mean it'd be trivial to get non-interceptors to fly over 5k/s. In other words, missiles would be useless except against battleships.
At some point you need to level things out so that they're the way they should be in terms of speed order (intys fastest, then frigates, then cruisers, then hacs, etc) and then tweak as necessary to make things the way they should play out.
Personally I'm ok with 2.5k/s HACs if they go and lower the base costs so that the price would fall out between 30-40m instead of 90-100m. The whole "why would I ever choose this over a battlecruiser" becomes more evident when HACs don't cost twice as much as one.
Everything in a MMO should have something that it's invulnerable to, and something that it's also extremely vulnerable to.
Interceptors are vulnerable to anything that can stop them . Even an Ibis could destroy one easily if it tackled it. Being able to outrun missiles? Why not? Missiles shouldn't always hit. And this is coming from a missile boat fan.
Intys got nerfed worse than ANYTHING in the speed nerf. And this to a ship already an endangered species because dictors/hictors have basically taken over their tackling role. Not one inty in the game does enough DPS to take out a ship larger than itself without a LOT of time or help.
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Galan Amarias
Amarr The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.06 05:13:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Richard Angevian Everything in a MMO should have something that it's invulnerable to, and something that it's also extremely vulnerable to.
What?!
This is EVE, nothing is invulrnable to anything, as it should be. Alternately everything is vulrnable to numbers. Also as it should be.
We are not playing rock, paper, scisors online. The level of tacital complexity capable in EVE, especially once this nerf hits, is far better than, well I guess I'll fly rock today, I was scisors all last week.
Furthermore if things were the way you suggest they ought to be there would be no need for an indepth skill system, after all you are totally invulrnable to everything but the stuff that will easily kill you.
Originally by: Richard Angevian
Interceptors are vulnerable to anything that can stop them. Even an Ibis could destroy one easily if it tackled it. Being able to outrun missiles? Why not? Missiles shouldn't always hit. And this is coming from a missile boat fan.
You are new so I'll forgive this gross misstatement. My Afterburner interceptor was regularly tackled. because it had a tank, it was an exceptionally dangerous frigatte. It killed ships 3v1, tackled. It killed camp tacklers and managed to run before their support could hurt it enough to break the tank. It won frig duels where it started webbed at close range.
It used its speed to dictate the range of combat, avoid enemies it could not kill and to minimize incomming dammage to the point that the armor tank could keep up easily. Missles do laughable dammage when you have a 20m sig radius and 40% resists.
Originally by: Richard Angevian
Intys got nerfed worse than ANYTHING in the speed nerf. And this to a ship already an endangered species because dictors/hictors have basically taken over their tackling role. Not one inty in the game does enough DPS to take out a ship larger than itself without a LOT of time or help.
My Crusader regularly killed cruisers and ate other frigates for breakfast. Interceptors will be far more useful for running down the remaining nano hac. Read up on the 2pt scram changes. Also remember that bubbles only work in nul sec.
I give you 7/10 on trolling but only 2/10 on logical debate. Play a bit more and then form your opinion.
-Galan
CSM fails nano |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.06 05:28:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Richard Angevian
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Richard Angevian Nerfing almost always is the favorite course of action for MMO Devs because it takes far less creativity to destroy than it does to create.
Buffing requires some real, actual brain work and creativity.
But in fact it's a boost to all ships that don't nano. and I'm not talking about the speed but in fact the web changes with the "nerf"
so it's a really just a big boost or something I don't care I'll stop trying to explain lol.
Nearly every single ship in the game is slower, less agile, and less fun as a result of the changes.
People who don't fit speed mods are going to have ships that are unacceptably slow (and vulnerable). A Raven I tried on Sisi took about TWICE the time it takes to align to warp on the live server.
The irony is that the speed mods they claimed to not make a "must fit" are going to be even more so after this. And the nanoships will be even MORE dominant than they are now because the ships that weren't fast before are even slower now.
no they will e as dominate, also the agility of ships is most likely getting rebuffed and missles will go slower or something and nanos will be more powerful with weakerwebs.
in fact just boosting missles to catch nanos would of been the simple no thought way out would it not?
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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Tishlin Veredici
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.06 05:29:00 -
[76]
1/10, would not read again.
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