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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.05 15:29:00 -
[1]
This is a relativly new char and currently my goal is first to get all learning skills to rank 4. Because rank 4 unlocks the purchased learing skills so I then can level those to rank 4. But I also wonder how long it would take if I spend time on geting all learning skills 5. When would that become effective in reducing my learning time when compared to just geting the proper skills right away?
Also for cybernetics. Is it worth geting cybernatics rank 5 to get +2 to all attributes from implants?
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.05 15:47:00 -
[2]
It's a few years for the learning skills.
Looking just at the attributes, Cybernetics V takes a few years though, but it has other benefits (like being able to use the best hardwirings etc).
If you look at the sticky at the top of this boards and follow the links to Tripoli's threads, you'll get all the details you need.
Estel Arador corp services (high-sec POS/JCs) just 120M isk! |
Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:03:00 -
[3]
I play as 100% miner so is it a good idea to start with rank 4 on all learning skills then move on to ship skills?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:40:00 -
[4]
For god's sake, LEVEL, not rank. Learning skills are of two kinds, rank 1 (the 6 basic ones) and rank 3 (the 5 advanced ones). You can train either of them to levels between 1 and 5.
For the best "regular user" bang for time spent training, get level 4 in all of them and level 4 in cybernetics, plug in a set of +4 implants.
If you think you'll stick around for almost a year, train all basics to L5. If you think you'll stick around for more than a year and have enough cash AND you don't engage in PVP much, also train cybernetics to L5. If you think you'll stick around for more than three years, train also all advanceds to L5.
Of course, the difference between +4 and +5 implants, or L4 and L5 advanced learning is quite minimal, so it really won't hurt much if you don't bother.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Plumpy McPudding
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:42:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akita T For god's sake, LEVEL, not rank.
Relax __________________________
Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:24:00 -
[6]
Nerdrage !
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:13:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 05/08/2008 18:13:30 I used EVEmon to see how long it would take to train only learning skills to level 5. Feberuary 2009. Which seems a bit extreme to do before starting ship skills. 180 days of work to make skills train faster. Feels like I would be better off just training the skills I like for 180 days instead.
Cybernetics level 4 you say? I guess that makes sense. +1 all attributes for some cheap skill training.
I'm also training a hauler side by side with my miner. They are nearly equal in skills. Just focusing on different crafts.
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Jaabaa
Minmatar Dental Drilling Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:22:00 -
[8]
Learning skills @ 4, Cybernetics 4 and +4 implants.
Unless you're here for the long haul that would probably be your best option. -- EVE Mobile Skill Planner V3 !! http://evemsp.sourceforge.net/ |
Starbreezee
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:23:00 -
[9]
Agree with Jaabaa
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Zektuuk
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:45:00 -
[10]
If you're using EVEmon, you can find out right away what the benefit will be. Make your plan without learning skills, then see what it recommends. I do a LOT of tweeking around with EVEmon and I've noticed that it only recommends learning skills that will save you time on your current plan. If you start manually adding level 5 learning, you'll notice it usually ADDS time to shorter plans.
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sepharim blade
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Posted - 2008.08.05 19:21:00 -
[11]
Edited by: sepharim blade on 05/08/2008 19:23:00 what i did is i leveled my basic learning skills to four, then leveled my advanced learning skills to four, then finished leveling my basic learning skills to five, and then leveled cybernetics to four.
i then started training other skills, but whenever i had a skills i couldnt finish before bed or work i switched over to my learning or cybernetics skill.
that way i could work on them along with the skills i needed
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 05/08/2008 20:19:47 Now this is good advice. I'm noting all this down. Why aren't you people raving lunatics like the other MMO communities?
So lets see making a plan...
First of all my goal ship. I'm thinking a Covetor or are there better Caldari mining ships?
Then items. I need mining droids. Which one is better? Harvester Mining Drone or Mining Drone II? EveMon says the harvester is the best but the rank 2 drone has alot higher requirements which makes me wonder what balances them out.
Drone Mining Augmentor II probably. What else does a miner need? Should I put more into refining? My net yeild at a normal station with no reputation is 91%.
or mayby I should just make my hauler learn everything related to refining.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:41:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/08/2008 20:42:49
Caldari miner ships : Bantam (frig), Osprey (cru), Rokh (BS) PROPER mining ships (regular asteroids) : Covetor (barge), Hulk (exhumer) A Roks would be pretty much on par with a Covetor at raw extraction rate, but the cargo is so small that you'd usually prefer a Covetor anyway... and as soon as you can afford it (because skill-wise they're almost on par), get a Hulk. Harvester drones are downright ancient artifacts, I doubt you'd find any for sale at a reasonable price to justify using them (and LOSING them accidentally), so go with T2 drones instead.
Skills you'll most probably want for a Covetor//Hulk ?
Mining V Electronics V Engineering V Drones V Drone Interfacing III+ Drone Navigation III+ Mining Drone Operation V Astrogeology V Mining Barge V Mining Upgrades IV+ Exhumers III+
plus, preferably, also the following (for tank)
Energy System Operation IV+ Energy Management III+ Shield Operation V Shield Management IV+ Shield Compensation IV+ Tactical Shield Manipulation IV
plus, of course, also the following (for refining and mining crystals)
Refining V Refinery Efficiency IV+ (V if you want to mine out in 0.0 the specific ores) <oretype> Processing III or IV (T1/T2 mining crystals, only work in modulated strip miner ii)
If you prefer the Rokh, pretty much the same, except the barge/exhumer skills, but add Deep Core Mining II to the list (for the modulated deep core miner ii)
P.S. You're usually better off with cargo rigs rather than mining drone rigs, to maximize amount of ore you can hold before you have to unload rather than negligibly enhance the tiny bit of extra ore mined with mining drones.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:54:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 05/08/2008 21:03:38 Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 05/08/2008 20:56:50 I use a seperate character on another account for hauling ore back and that character is trained at the same time as my miner.
What's the difference between and miner and a strip miner?
I never knew about the hulk before but that deffinantly seems like a good miner to aim for. What skills can I neglect on my miner when I have a seperate hauler that moves ore constantly while I mine it?
and what do you mean "for tank" after the military skills?
What do I need to know about mining ice and gas?
What happens if I get attacked in a 0.0 zone and just have my civilian mining ship? Can I escape? Do I need to bring mercenaries?
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Siouxsie Xai
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.08.05 21:07:00 -
[15]
Level 5 basic only takes a few months, level 5 advanced.. years. SO I train 5 in all basic and 4 in all advance. Level 4 cybernetics is also good. Profit is fast. For short term a simple level4 in basics level 5 in learning itself, and level 3in advance, with only level 1 cybernetics is good. There is an advantage to having level 5 in everything learning. And that is gauranteed decent train times even when in a jump clone or recently podded. I consider the missing pleasure hub interior a bug.. even if it is not. Please fix it. :P |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 22:22:00 -
[16]
Quote: I never knew about the hulk before but that deffinantly seems like a good miner to aim for. What skills can I neglect on my miner when I have a seperate hauler that moves ore constantly while I mine it?
None. All of the above are focused for mining speed. The only ones (not even listed) that help you if you're NOT using a hauler would be those that enhance your cargo capacity (Astronautic Rigging for cargo rigs, Hull Upgrades for cargo expanders in lowslots).
Originally by: Gordon Marinius What's the difference between and miner and a strip miner? Oh and what are mining crystals?
"Regular" miners have a 1-minute cycle time and mine between 30 (basic), 40+ (T1 and T1 named) up to 80 (T2) m^3 of ore per (1-minute) cycle. The "regular" miners can NOT use mining crystals, and can NOT mine Mercoxit. The only (not so regular) mining laser that can mine Mercoxit is the Deep Core Mining Laser I. The Modulated Deep Core Miner II (3 minute cycle time) is the only "regular" miner that can use mining crystals, and can use them all. ALL "regular" miners require a turret hardpoint to fit on a ship's high slots. Missile boats usually can't fit (many) of them, you need gunboats for that.
STRIP miners can only be fited on mining barges, and mining barges can not fit regular miners. Strip miners come in T1, T2 for mercoxit (can only use mercoxit mining crystals), T2 for everything else (can NOT use mercoxit mining crystals), and T1/T2 for ice (but they are called ice harvesters, not strip miners).
Mining crystals modify the yield of the miner they're loaded into quite drastically (a T2 miner with T1 crystal mines better than a corresponding best non-crystal-using miner, and using T2 crystals means even better yields), but they do so ONLY for the specific ore type they're designed for. A T2 miner that can use crystals will mine MUCH WORSE than the corresponding non-crystal-using miner if loaded with no crystal (or the wrong crystal).
Mining crystals are also damaged when used, and they eventually break down, so you need to buy/load a new one... think of them as "ammo for miners".
Quote: What do I need to know about mining ice and gas?
Slightly different gear for each. Ice miners have no yield modifiers, they always extract one block (1000 m^3) per cycle (or two per cycle if using a Mackinaw exhumer). The only modifiers are for cycle time. ALL ice miners can ONLY be fited on barges. Gas mining... let's just say for the better part it's a waste of time. I'd stay away from it.
Quote: What happens if I get attacked in a 0.0 zone and just have my civilian mining ship? Can I escape? Do I need to bring mercenaries?
If you go into 0.0 alone you will eventually die regardless of what you fly. Mercenaries seldom help, you will probably get killed by them instead. If you go in empty 0.0, even the belt rats might kill you, if you don't sport an adequate tank. Only ever consider anything other than highsec if you're part of a larger player corp that has a mining division.
Quote: How do these skills benefit my mining? Electronics V Engineering V Energy System Operation IV+ Energy Management III+ Shield Operation V Shield Management IV+ Shield Compensation IV+ Tactical Shield Manipulation IV
By allowing you to fit your ship better... both in mining rate (use mining upgrades) and tanking power (even the 0.8 belt rats can be a serious threat to an untanked mining barge).
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.08.05 23:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Akita T For god's sake, LEVEL, not rank. Learning skills are of two kinds, rank 1 (the 6 basic ones) and rank 3 (the 5 advanced ones). You can train either of them to levels between 1 and 5.
For the best "regular user" bang for time spent training, get level 4 in all of them and level 4 in cybernetics, plug in a set of +4 implants.
If you think you'll stick around for almost a year, train all basics to L5. If you think you'll stick around for more than a year and have enough cash AND you don't engage in PVP much, also train cybernetics to L5. If you think you'll stick around for more than three years, train also all advanceds to L5.
Of course, the difference between +4 and +5 implants, or L4 and L5 advanced learning is quite minimal, so it really won't hurt much if you don't bother.
**** that, pvp with +5s
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.06 04:56:00 -
[18]
+1 to all attributes adds 1.65 SP/minute to your character, or 2376 SP/day. Given that Cybernetics 5 takes 632,235 SP, it will pay back in just over 266 days of +5 implants, compared to the +4s you would have had otherwise. Similarly, raising Cybernetics from 1 to 4 pays off in just under 58 days, though of course both of these skills let you use non-learning implants as well, which may affect whether that's soon enough for you.
The advanced learning skills to 5 are 5x as big as Cybernetics 5, meaning that they take 1330 days and change to pay off, or about 3 years and 8 months. However, a single advanced learning, if you kept skills with that attribute as their primary for the whole time, would pay off far faster - just under 400 days. As such, training the advanced learning skill you use most to 5 can pay off significantly faster than training the entire set to 5 blindly. For example, in Runewitch's 3-4 year long skill plan, Clarity 5 would have shaved off about two weeks if I'd trained it at the beginning, but none of the others would have even made back their own time.
Also, it should be noted that my time to payback calculations are based on the assumption that all your attributes are equal. It becomes a real pain to calculate it without that assumption(you start needing to know the whole breakdown of skills to be trained, most notably), but it's a decent assumption for most character builds. If you need exact values, build a plan in EveMon as long as the amount of time you're willing to wait for skills to pay off, and see what it tells you to train. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.06 13:02:00 -
[19]
Ohhh so tank is another word for damage mitigation against attackers.
Ammo for my miner... That sound terribly counter productive
So if I feel like mining Ice then I switch from regular miners to ice harvester.
So strip miners can't be fitted on the hulk? I would have to settle for regular miners then?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.06 13:59:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius Ohhh so tank is another word for damage mitigation against attackers.
Ammo for my miner... That sound terribly counter productive
So if I feel like mining Ice then I switch from regular miners to ice harvester.
So strip miners can't be fitted on the hulk? I would have to settle for regular miners then?
1) Yes.
2) Ammo for your miner dramatically raises your mining yield. It can be annoying to train and to keep the ammo in stock, but it's ultimately well worth it.
3) Yes.
4) Hulks can only fit Strip Miners, they can't fit regular miners. Barges and Exhumers are strip miner ships and ice harvester ships - they are, in fact, the only ships that can fit those modules. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.06 16:08:00 -
[21]
Exhumers are tech 2 mining barges
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 06/08/2008 17:15:34 Ohhh. I thought they where a different category and so mining barge equipment wouldn't work with them..
What about those really insanely expensive motherships. Can those be used for mining?
They seem to have alot of cargo space.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 06/08/2008 17:15:34 Ohhh. I thought they where a different category and so mining barge equipment wouldn't work with them..
What about those really insanely expensive motherships. Can those be used for mining?
They seem to have alot of cargo space.
Yes, but you'll be the subject of a comedy thread when you inevitably lose your 16 billion ISK mining ship.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.06 18:05:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 06/08/2008 18:08:30 But damn it would be cool up until then.
The real problem is that I would have to train for over 800 days to be able to pilot one.
People would probably dedicate an entire allience just to kicking my *** so they can pick apart the remains of my mothership.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.06 18:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 06/08/2008 17:15:34 Ohhh. I thought they where a different category and so mining barge equipment wouldn't work with them..
What about those really insanely expensive motherships. Can those be used for mining?
They seem to have alot of cargo space.
Actually, motherships have no turret slots and no ability to use strip miners, so they can't be used for mining, except via mining drones. Dreadnoughts and Titans can be, however - a fairly well known guy on these forums, Chribba, has a Dreadnought he uses solely for mining Veldspar. Of course, he's insane, but it is possible. Realistically speaking, however, people either use a Hulk/Mackinaw/Skiff (the Exhumers) for their mining needs, or they use a Battleship if they need more security at the cost of less production. Anything bigger than that is an affectation, not a serious option. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.06 18:36:00 -
[26]
I didn't mean mothership as a substantive but rather as a reference to those insanly big ships as I recalled some of them had huge cargo space and turret slots.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.06 18:55:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/08/2008 18:57:19
Huge cargo space : check. (but only if you take corp hangars into account too, base cargo is NOT impressive at all) Turret slots : negative.
Also, a proper fit Hulk more or less outmines a mining-fit Mothership anyway (and motherships can't dock, which makes refiting them a pain in the ass - you need another capital ship with refit services or a capital ship maintenance array).
Here's a comparison (comedy-fit style "all level 5 plus implants" EFT fits)
[Hulk, Mining] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Caldari Navy Small Shield Booster Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Mining Drone II x5
+ Michi + HX-2 implants -> SOLO up to 2018 m^3 of ore per minute, a lot more with a mindlinked fleet commander operating the mining links, 8000 m^3 cargohold
[Aeon, MINING lol] Capital Armor Repairer I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II
Drone Navigation Computer I Drone Navigation Computer I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Drone Control Unit I Drone Control Unit I Drone Control Unit I Drone Control Unit I Drone Control Unit I [empty high slot]
Drone Mining Augmentor II Drone Mining Augmentor II Drone Mining Augmentor I
Mining Drone II x25
-> implants don't matter, gang effects don't matter... 2147 m^3 of ore per minute ASSUMING you're right on top of the rocks each and every time... and barely 13081 m^3 cargohold (plus whatever's in the corp hangars)
COSTS : 100-and-some mil for Hulk... almost 20 Bil (with a B, not M) for the mothership. Granted the tanks are orders of magnitude apart, and if you switch to combat drones (you have plenty of dronebay leftover) your damage can be quite impressive too (THEORETICALLY only) but still... Still think it's worth it ?
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2008.08.07 03:13:00 -
[28]
I didn't bother too highly with learning skills, got a few to lvl 4 and moved on. Needed to get actually useful Lvl 5 skills like Drones V.
Cybernetics is a must though.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.07 05:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jerid Verges I didn't bother too highly with learning skills, got a few to lvl 4 and moved on. Needed to get actually useful Lvl 5 skills like Drones V.
Cybernetics is a must though.
Depends on your cash situation. If you can keep 100 mil of implants in your head, cyber 4 pays off real quick. Most new players can't. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Xelios Xarxes
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Posted - 2008.08.07 06:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 05/08/2008 18:13:30 I used EVEmon to see how long it would take to train only learning skills to level 5. Feberuary 2009. Which seems a bit extreme to do before starting ship skills. 180 days of work to make skills train faster.
180? You did something wrong or didn't factor implants.
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