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What is a hi-sec level 4 agent worth

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Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:01:00 - [31] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Malcanis Seriously, are you actually putting this forward as an argument? OK in that case, all player sov systems are worth zero ISK, in which case even a -Q20 level 1 agent is worth infinitely more than the whole of player 0.0. So do you want to produce any more laughable nit-picky points, or do you want to address the issue I have raised? No, I proved my point your idea is flawed. And quite frankly, I have no idea what a player sov system is doing in the argument, and how it relates to what an agent pays out. you're off the path my friend. get back on track with me... here. All you proved is that you're a master of non-sequiteurs. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:02:00 - [32] Originally by: Slaver Hatastus Originally by: Malcanis [So do you want to produce any more laughable nit-picky points, or do you want to address the issue I have raised? wait...what IS your "issue"? See post #2. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:03:00 - [33] The point he's bringing up is that profit made in hisec space, with no threat to you, is far higher than any player can make in losec or 0.0, just by averaging the income from level 4 missions. At least how I see it. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Olga Mokroff Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Malcanis NEEEEEEEEERF!!!!!!!!!!!one!!!elevwenty!!! OK
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:07:00 - [35] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Malcanis Seriously, are you actually putting this forward as an argument? OK in that case, all player sov systems are worth zero ISK, in which case even a -Q20 level 1 agent is worth infinitely more than the whole of player 0.0. So do you want to produce any more laughable nit-picky points, or do you want to address the issue I have raised? No, I proved my point your idea is flawed. And quite frankly, I have no idea what a player sov system is doing in the argument, and how it relates to what an agent pays out. you're off the path my friend. get back on track with me... here. Holy crap dude, you need to lvl up on reading comp. You need to get back on track. And btw if you can't muster 25mil per hour running lvl4's you are doing it wrong.
mishkof Caldari Finis Lumen	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:10:00 - [36] I wonder how much the moons in losec and 0.0 give per month.Now that is a number I would like to see. Please do that math next. I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:11:00 - [37] Originally by: Farrqua And btw if you can't muster 25mil per hour running lvl4's you are doing it wrong. show me a lvl 4 agent that will reward you 25mil an hour? I'll be waiting at your sister's house to tell me. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Granmethedon III We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:11:00 - [38] Originally by: Slaver Hatastus Originally by: Malcanis [So do you want to produce any more laughable nit-picky points, or do you want to address the issue I have raised? wait...what IS your "issue"? are you looking for a pat on the back for your prowess at back-of-envelope calculations, or is there something of note here? great, so each agent - assuming 175 is a fair number, i have no idea - can supply x amount of ISK per hour - so what? what does it even matter what a L4 agent is worth, unless we're talking about moving L4 agents to low-sec only to cut down on high-sec earnings. The point is, that according to CCP, the "end game" of Eve is 0.0; yet you can make far more than is possible in that dangerous, scary and harsh land in the safety of hi-sec. Which is due to become even more cuddlesome and protective.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:11:00 - [39] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Ruze The point he's bringing up is that profit made in hisec space, with no threat to you, is far higher than any player can make in losec or 0.0, just by averaging the income from level 4 missions. At least how I see it. No, he's stretching to find reason to compare NPC play to 0.0 player based play. Compare the roids, the moons, the rats, all from one 0.0 system... and yes... it gets complicated. So in other words... he's a noob looking to debate a pointless issue. But hey, whatever... maybe an agent is just worth his quality to you? simple... move on and play your game. Throw out some numbers and prove me wrong. If you're going to include moons, don't forget to include the average number of each kind of moon per region, and the cost of running the moon POS. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:12:00 - [40] Originally by: Malcanis Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable) Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum. Uhhhh... yeah. I run level 4s a couple of times a week. I have a fairly nicely set up Golem and know all the missions like the back of my hand. Don't come anywhere close to 25m an hour. Now, if I was like some of the mission maniacs who post here who know every single angle about keeping missions open with multiple agents so that they respawn and farm Angel Extra over an over while boxing two accounts, yeah, I could probably make that much or more. I don't. I just play the game. Where you logic is flawed bud is that in an alliance of 500 members in a region like fountain you could easily have 175 miners grinding out roids with their hulks and another 100 farming rat bounties and faction loots. I do know from experience that 0.0 mining ABC ores will net you quite a bit more than level 4 missioning. Double, maybe even triple wouldn't be out of the question. Likewise spawn-chaining and faction spawn farming up in Venal. I've done both. Both are far more profitable than high-sec level 4s. The sky is not falling. Things are pretty much as they should be.
Granmethedon III We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:12:00 - [41] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Farrqua And btw if you can't muster 25mil per hour running lvl4's you are doing it wrong. show me a lvl 4 agent that will reward you 25mil an hour? I'll be waiting at your sister's house to tell me. You really are dumb, aren't you?
Atlas Oracle Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:13:00 - [42] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Atlas Oracle dead horse is dead, but hey don't stop beating it at 2 days of whining, go for a 3rd consecutive tomorrow. best of luck 3 days? Oh I'll be doing this until my account expires. Hope you're ready to "adapt and survive", freshmeat. oh i'm sure you will, just looking at your post history for the last two days shows your a real forum warrior on this one. i'm sure you will be successful. beat that dead horse /flex how 'bout adding up how much is made in Jita and Rens in a day? pure genius.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Farrqua And btw if you can't muster 25mil per hour running lvl4's you are doing it wrong. show me a lvl 4 agent that will reward you 25mil an hour? I'll be waiting at your sister's house to tell me. Show me where anyone said that they would. If you're going to produce strawman arguments, then you're going to get burned. What I said was this: "Each player can earn 25M an hour" I don't see anything there that specifies agent rewards only, but maybe huffing paint thinner gives you secret insights. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Granmethedon III We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Originally by: Malcanis Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable) Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum. Uhhhh... yeah. I run level 4s a couple of times a week. I have a fairly nicely set up Golem and know all the missions like the back of my hand. Don't come anywhere close to 25m an hour. Now, if I was like some of the mission maniacs who post here who know every single angle about keeping missions open with multiple agents so that they respawn and farm Angel Extra over an over while boxing two accounts, yeah, I could probably make that much or more. I don't. I just play the game. Where you logic is flawed bud is that in an alliance of 500 members in a region like fountain you could easily have 175 miners grinding out roids with their hulks and another 100 farming rat bounties and faction loots. I do know from experience that 0.0 mining ABC ores will net you quite a bit more than level 4 missioning. Double, maybe even triple wouldn't be out of the question. Likewise spawn-chaining and faction spawn farming up in Venal. I've done both. Both are far more profitable than high-sec level 4s. The sky is not falling. Things are pretty much as they should be. LOL. I double dare you to take 175 miners out in fountain.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:15:00 - [45] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Malcanis Seriously, are you actually putting this forward as an argument? OK in that case, all player sov systems are worth zero ISK, in which case even a -Q20 level 1 agent is worth infinitely more than the whole of player 0.0. So do you want to produce any more laughable nit-picky points, or do you want to address the issue I have raised? No, I proved my point your idea is flawed. And quite frankly, I have no idea what a player sov system is doing in the argument, and how it relates to what an agent pays out. you're off the path my friend. get back on track with me... here. The OP didn't post an idea, he just posted some facts, that simply a single high sec system with a q20 level 4 agents gives out vastly more rewards than the best 0.0 sec system. CCP has said that players are supposed to be ENCOURAGED, not FORCED to go to 0.0. But in light of recent and future changes and current level 4 missions, players are not encouraged to go to 0.0. This is a problem that requires fixing a LONG, LONG time ago. It is one of the most requested features and I see no reason why risk vs reward which is one of the founding princples of EVE is constantly ignored. Lastly, Pithecanthropus is an idiot or a terrible troll, I mean learn what the word "idea" means ffs. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:16:00 - [46] Each player can earn 25M an hour wtf makes up these numbers? Im sure that has happened. And maybe there are ever a few players that consistantly pull it off, noraml people probably average half that if they have high skill including social skills. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:18:00 - [47] Oi, trading is a completely different matter. My question is this: If they are going to make hisec the place where you make money, how come we don't have level 5 missions and 10/10 complexes there, too? Stop screwing me over. Cause there ain't no way I'd go into losec for anything but some alt-FW fun every now and again. Why would I risk a ship for something that pays far less? (P.S. I'm a carebear. At least, nowadays. I exist solely in Empire, running level 4's. I'm not arguing because I'm some PvP bully trying to get more targets. I'm arguing cause I think the system is WRONG, and needs to be balanced. Take it or leave it at that, it's your choice.) So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:18:00 - [48] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Originally by: Malcanis Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable) Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum. Uhhhh... yeah. I run level 4s a couple of times a week. I have a fairly nicely set up Golem and know all the missions like the back of my hand. Don't come anywhere close to 25m an hour. Now, if I was like some of the mission maniacs who post here who know every single angle about keeping missions open with multiple agents so that they respawn and farm Angel Extra over an over while boxing two accounts, yeah, I could probably make that much or more. I don't. I just play the game. Where you logic is flawed bud is that in an alliance of 500 members in a region like fountain you could easily have 175 miners grinding out roids with their hulks and another 100 farming rat bounties and faction loots. I do know from experience that 0.0 mining ABC ores will net you quite a bit more than level 4 missioning. Double, maybe even triple wouldn't be out of the question. Likewise spawn-chaining and faction spawn farming up in Venal. I've done both. Both are far more profitable than high-sec level 4s. The sky is not falling. Things are pretty much as they should be. shrug I have a cheap faction fit CNR and I can easily do 25M an hour. If I can be bothered to have my alt loot and salvage, I can boost that figure a lot higher. I expect to be about 175-250M ISk richer for an evening's missioning, once bounty, mission pay, LP, salvage, storyline mission rewards & so forth are taken into account. Recently I was only getting 150M, but then I was helping out a noob by letting him salvage my missions, since I just couldn't be bothered. It's a shame to see a nice ship like a golem wasted. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Atlas Oracle Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:21:00 - [49] Originally by: Ruze Oi, trading is a completely different matter. oh? lol
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Granmethedon III LOL. I double dare you to take 175 miners out in fountain. Haven't been there in a long time bud. No idea what it's like now. I was just using an example of a region with some nice ore. Substitute big-power-block-napathon-region of your choice, but you needn't bother telling me it's not possible. I've mined Ark for days in a region that was supposed to be a "war zone" and wasn't bothered by a soul. I probably run a bigger risk taking a Golem out in Motsu with a 1.5B fit. Well, until the fall, I will, anyway.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:23:00 - [51] Edited by: Malcanis on 07/08/2008 22:25:29 Originally by: Ghoest Each player can earn 25M an hour wtf makes up these numbers? Im sure that has happened. And maybe there are ever a few players that consistantly pull it off, noraml people probably average half that if they have high skill including social skills. A reasonable query. What I was highlighting was the earning potential of an agent. It's certainly possible to make 25M/hr - it's possible to make 30M if you're really working at it, but that's pretty exhausting and requires an alt. But let's say you're right, and 15M/hr is more reasonable. In that case one single L4 agent is still worth over 60 Billion ISK per day. My qurstion stands: what system in player sov space can remote match this kind of earning potential? And remember, your query applies to the 0.0 system too - if you're going to say that the maximum earning potential of an agent isn't achievable, well then neither is that of a 0.0 system. And the reducing variables in 0.0 will massively outweight those of hi-sec. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Granmethedon III We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:24:00 - [52] Originally by: Ghoest Each player can earn 25M an hour wtf makes up these numbers? Im sure that has happened. And maybe there are ever a few players that consistantly pull it off, noraml people probably average half that if they have high skill including social skills. I did my first ever lvl4 today. In an hour I made 29 million. And I reckon that was pretty slow cause I was in a Fleet Tempest, which is undeniably gimped, and I don't know the missions so was wasting time looking them up. All told, with the agent rewards, ship bounties, drone and rat loot refined, and the salvage, it came to 29 mill. Oh wait, sorry, 39 mill, cause one of the rats dropped a +3 memory implant that i forget about. Perhaps I should have plugged it in....
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Atlas Oracle Originally by: Ruze Oi, trading is a completely different matter. oh? lol Yes. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:26:00 - [54] now think about 175 ppl mission running that are in the same corp, using the same agent, and using a lvl 4 q20 (or even lvl3 q20, easily)...but in NPC 0.0 now, that's some issue we have here. if you can make 25m/run in high sec missioning lvl 4 q20, imagine the reward that a single blockade in 0.0 (wich allows carriers, remember that) in term of isks, salvage materials, tags and LP (LP rewards from empire are different from NPC 0.0, where you can buy halo/slave/snake/whatever implant sets with LPs). not to get into account ppl with awesome social skills. isn't that another issue? so, let's remove agents oh, wait... ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Granmethedon III We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:27:00 - [55] Edited by: Granmethedon III on 07/08/2008 22:26:56 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Originally by: Granmethedon III LOL. I double dare you to take 175 miners out in fountain. Haven't been there in a long time bud. No idea what it's like now. I was just using an example of a region with some nice ore. Substitute big-power-block-napathon-region of your choice, but you needn't bother telling me it's not possible. I've mined Ark for days in a region that was supposed to be a "war zone" and wasn't bothered by a soul. I probably run a bigger risk taking a Golem out in Motsu with a 1.5B fit. Well, until the fall, I will, anyway. You're missing the point; 175 miners will show up as a damn big "check me out" blob soon enough.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:27:00 - [56] Originally by: Stinky Mc**yPants Stupid words. I quoted this poster not to address his post, but to address the idea that ** is censored but shit isn't - I think that's pretty cool in a wtf kind of way. On topic, OP has good point, tbh, you've been nerfing pirates and mercs, now nerf carebears and ISK farmers. Originally by:** CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Granmethedon III We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Concorduck now think about 175 ppl mission running that are in the same corp, using the same agent, and using a lvl 4 q20 (or even lvl3 q20, easily)...but in NPC 0.0 now, that's some issue we have here. if you can make 25m/run in high sec missioning lvl 4 q20, imagine the reward that a single blockade in 0.0 (wich allows carriers, remember that) in term of isks, salvage materials, tags and LP (LP rewards from empire are different from NPC 0.0, where you can buy halo/slave/snake/whatever implant sets with LPs). not to get into account ppl with awesome social skills. isn't that another issue? so, let's remove agents oh, wait... Let me station camp empire level 4 sites, and sure, I see your point.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Malcanis It's a shame to see a nice ship like a golem wasted. Yeah, dunno what to tell you bud. I pretty much sleepwalk through any L4. Kill stuff as fast as Navy Torps will kill it. Salvage and loot. I probaby missioned for 4 hours last week and netted maybe 80 mill total. Part of the difference may be that I'm grinding standings for an alt at the same time, so I'm not turning anything down. Shrugs.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Concorduck now think about 175 ppl mission running that are in the same corp, using the same agent, and using a lvl 4 q20 (or even lvl3 q20, easily)...but in NPC 0.0 now, that's some issue we have here. if you can make 25m/run in high sec missioning lvl 4 q20, imagine the reward that a single blockade in 0.0 (wich allows carriers, remember that) in term of isks, salvage materials, tags and LP (LP rewards from empire are different from NPC 0.0, where you can buy halo/slave/snake/whatever implant sets with LPs). not to get into account ppl with awesome social skills. isn't that another issue? so, let's remove agents oh, wait... (1) I specified player sov. (2) 0.0 missions are, well, risky. So it's OK for them to have lots of reward, because there's a good helping of risk too. Oh, and they're in 0.0 too. Endgame and all that, I guess. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:33:00 - [60] Originally by: Malcanis This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation. Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable) Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum. 175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY. That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month. 1 titan every 14 hours. A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds. For a single agent. As all statistics, worth nothing when you manipulate the results to your ends. 1) "175 players Observed in Isinokka" Naturally you arent adding "at peak hours" as it will not suit your purposes. Average for the day? probably 100-110. Let's say 110. 2) "25 millions an hour as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum." naturally for players with high social skills and high skills in the combat skills. Again you are discounting the high number of players new to level 4 missions that will spend a lot of time and reduce the average. Let's again take a credible average of 20 millions. 3) "175x25x24". But the server is up 23 hours/day, not 24. And if you start a mission in the last hour you will not salvage it. But let's keep the 23 hours. 4) and all that without considering combats against ship where you have the wrong damage kind as they can't change it (not all people use raven, you know. Well probably not, you are Caldari). So, a more credible 110x20x23=50,6 billions Still high but less than half of your pumped up values. But the most important part you are missing: it require an average of 110 people, in the same system, for 23 hours day It is not something that 1 person or 1 alliance is doing. If you find that it is so wonderful and want a piece of the pie, bring your alliance there and start running missions like mad. Originally by: Gamesguy the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.

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