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Johann Jeneau Gallente Cricas Portuguese Korp	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:28:00 - [31] Well one of the things that's most frightening in this discussion is that it wont be the so called carebears whining more if a change like this go ahead (nerfing high-sec income) but the so called uber-pvpers I like my steaks bloody as hell
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:29:00 - [32] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Baske Oh yes I was whining about them. As we see, whining pays off, so I am getting into this part of the game now, to have it MY way, just like all the pirates whine to get it their way. Yeah, there are other ways to make money than missioning lvl 4 missions, and I am all onto it, but I like diversity, and CCP is killing diversity with this change. Oh yeah, i could run lvl 4 missions in low-sec for "fun"....but then, who the hell are missioning for "fun"?.....noone, everyone is in it for the isk. So when this change occur, it will be a massive killer to EVE, and will have a way bigger impact on the game than anyone can imagine, as it will effect the entire economy, as lvl 4 mission runners are one of the backbones in the economy. Positive side is that inflation will go down with less isk being earned server-wide. But that's as much positive as I see in this idea...... It's a crazy idea, and a suckup to the whining pirates, who can't seem to make enough money from their constant gatecamping. /Baske - Whiner since 12/08/2008 You're just trolling us, right? Because if you replace 'pirates' with 'carebears' your post describes exactly what has been going on these past months. lol, right... Nice try, but your proposal of word change does not fit with reality. Pirates whine, if you haven't seen this, you are either blind or you have been hardened by your own whining.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Baske lol, right... Nice try, but your proposal of word change does not fit with reality. Pirates whine, if you haven't seen this, you are either blind or you have been hardened by your own whining. Don't get me wrong. Pirates whine a lot on the forums these days. The problem with your argument is that the reason for the pirates whining is that CCP caved in to long term whining from carebears. The patches and expansions over the past few years have nerfed piracy extremely hard. In the mean time, carebears have never had it so easy as they do now. It's been a completely lopsided nerfing. However, this discussion isn't a pirates vs carebears one. It's a game balance vs game imbalance one. The game right now is imbalanced because you can make loads of isk completely risk free in high sec. This has to change for the good of the game. Not for the good of a few players. How it's changed is up to CCP, but change has to come.
DefJam101 Gallente THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:35:00 - [34] Pirates don't whine because real pirates don't spend their time on the damn forums. Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:36:00 - [35] Originally by: DefJam101 Pirates don't whine because real pirates don't spend their time on the damn forums. Neither do macro miners but they aren't real miners.
Dracorimus Caldari Edge Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:37:00 - [36] I like my missioning in hi-Sec, as I like my low sec piracy on my alt, so I got the best of both worlds But seriously, it seems you only want easy ganks if your demanding all the people who are just happy to run missions to get their enjoyment out of this game to come into your low sec systems to get blown to hell and laughed at by you, just so you can get your kicks out of the game. There is no solution to this I think, let them be, they are happy to make isk their way, as you are yours, if it doesnt suit you, as they say, "adapt or die". - Die faster damnit!
Dracorimus Caldari Edge Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/08/2008 16:25:31 Everyone whines in Eve. Pirates are the only ones whining about Level 4's in High Sec though. I think that's what they were getting at. Low Sec does have very legitimate problems, but changing Level 4's isn't the solution. Um .. but that ain't true. I'm neither griefer nor pirate, and I'm whining about level 4 missions. Let me guess, you dont run missions and just whine because others do and enjoy them and make isk, and poor little pirate you cannot kill them in hi-sec...... - Die faster damnit!
DefJam101 Gallente THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: DefJam101 Pirates don't whine because real pirates don't spend their time on the damn forums. Neither do macro miners but they aren't real miners. And yet CCP seems to enjoy giving the macrominers the ability to do whatever they want. Originally by: Destiny Calling Edited by: Destiny Calling on 27/12/2006 14:40:19 edited for simplicity your idea is bad
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Tarminic I've been saying this forever, but: Increasing the rewards of low-sec will not draw out the majority of those who currently reside in high-security space. These are risk adverse players, and as long as low-sec is as dangerous as it is they will not go there. Well, in my area of lowsec a lot of mission runners are willing to take the risks. I think these guys deserve much better profits from their missions than the guys lagging around in Motsu. Besides lowsec isnt that dangerous at all, we're probing out and invading peoples missions on a regular basis, and usually you will not be successful twice on the same victim. Even PvE players can adapt, and those willing to do so should see the difference in their wallets imho.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:02:00 - [40] Originally by: Dracorimus Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/08/2008 16:25:31 Everyone whines in Eve. Pirates are the only ones whining about Level 4's in High Sec though. I think that's what they were getting at. Low Sec does have very legitimate problems, but changing Level 4's isn't the solution. Um .. but that ain't true. I'm neither griefer nor pirate, and I'm whining about level 4 missions. Let me guess, you dont run missions and just whine because others do and enjoy them and make isk, and poor little pirate you cannot kill them in hi-sec...... Hehehe ... must be. Because someone who does lots of level 4's wouldn't POSSIBLY agree that they are hindering the player economy and the balance of gameplay between player competition and effort of achievement. I don't mind when people disagree. It happens, and of course I like my ideas because they're, well, mine . But to try to disarm an argument by clasifying everyone who disagree's with you with criminals and miscreants? What do you think this is, a political debate? So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:02:00 - [41] Quote: Let me guess, you dont run missions and just whine because others do and enjoy them and make isk, and poor little pirate you cannot kill them in hi-sec.. 0/10 I also am not a pirate and yet complain about l4s.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:08:00 - [42] Really all that needs to be done is moving LP out of highsec and make it a lowsec and 0.0 only resource. Make it harder to probe mission runners in deadspace. Few more agents in low sec spread out. This means that those in lowsec will be at a huge advantage from those in highsec. At the moment its just too risky in low sec compared to high sec. Also it may help raise value of LP and faction ships, making them special once again. Its not too harsh a nerf to high sec mission runners, they can still cash in on bounties and loot. Just not LP.
Pnandor	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:17:00 - [43] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 oi, im going to get flamed to hell and back for this, but i honestly dont think they should move all level 4 missions to low sec Where did you hear that from ? please link something as can prove this threat!
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Tarminic I've been saying this forever, but: Increasing the rewards of low-sec will not draw out the majority of those who currently reside in high-security space. These are risk adverse players, and as long as low-sec is as dangerous as it is they will not go there. If you want more people to be in low-sec, you're going to have to make things harder for the pirates. And since the pirates are the ones that want mission runners in low-sec, no one is going to agree on a solution. Wow. Hit the nail on the head there Tarminic. I think you just won this thread.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:21:00 - [45] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Originally by: Tarminic I've been saying this forever, but: Increasing the rewards of low-sec will not draw out the majority of those who currently reside in high-security space. These are risk adverse players, and as long as low-sec is as dangerous as it is they will not go there. If you want more people to be in low-sec, you're going to have to make things harder for the pirates. And since the pirates are the ones that want mission runners in low-sec, no one is going to agree on a solution. Wow. Hit the nail on the head there Tarminic. I think you just won this thread. No...Lowsec survival is not hard, at all. If you can't avoid pirates then you suck. It's the fact that you have to take extra effort into avoiding them for no extra profit.
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/08/2008 15:57:04 To draw people out to Low Sec you are going to have to remove something from High Sec that everyone needs. The basic ore types for example. It's an ugly solution but by crap would it be effective./quote] They did that already to an extent. Apparently is days of old the high end ores were available in highsec. Today, nobody mines in lowsec. Also I would like to add they created Lvl5 missions to get people into lowsec. That diden't work either ...
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 12/08/2008 17:30:24 Originally by: Kahega Amielden No...Lowsec survival is not hard, at all. If you can't avoid pirates then you suck. It's the fact that you have to take extra effort into avoiding them for no extra profit. Uhhh read what Tarminic said please.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:37:00 - [48] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Dracorimus Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/08/2008 16:25:31 Everyone whines in Eve. Pirates are the only ones whining about Level 4's in High Sec though. I think that's what they were getting at. Low Sec does have very legitimate problems, but changing Level 4's isn't the solution. Um .. but that ain't true. I'm neither griefer nor pirate, and I'm whining about level 4 missions. Let me guess, you dont run missions and just whine because others do and enjoy them and make isk, and poor little pirate you cannot kill them in hi-sec...... Hehehe ... must be. Because someone who does lots of level 4's wouldn't POSSIBLY agree that they are hindering the player economy and the balance of gameplay between player competition and effort of achievement. I don't mind when people disagree. It happens, and of course I like my ideas because they're, well, mine . But to try to disarm an argument by clasifying everyone who disagree's with you with criminals and miscreants? What do you think this is, a political debate? Willi Horton is a member of the muffin factory c/d? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lieutenant Isis Gristle Industries	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:57:00 - [49] Originally by: Winterblink So far nobody's come up with a suitable reason why L4 missions in high sec are even an issue, much less why they should be moved. It makes about as much sense as asking to get rid of all asteroids from high sec, or making it so you can't put up sell orders in .5 and higher. You mean that flying in near complete safety making piles of ISK is not reason enough? It just doesn't fit with EVE to make piles of ISK in high sec, and I should know I run lvl 4s in Motsu. I'm not a pirate or ganker, actually a hardcore carebear, but lvl 4s are just plain ridiculous. How did so many Guristas get into Motsu that we need to run 1000+ missions every day? This is about as silly as if magic fairies popped out of asteroids and cast spells. Personally lvl 4 and most lvl 3s should be moved to low sec. And nobody is saying that all asteroids should be removed from high sec, but if high ends spawned in high sec too, don't you think that would be really silly. I'd just like to see the "High-End" missions taken to a place where you can find the same high end ores. Trading is also not a sufficient comparison since trading requires you to invest tons of ISK that you could lose. I'm feeling this right now, as an item I have heavly invested in is droping in price and not selling, and I could lose several hundred million; which, while not emoragequiting levels of loss for me, is a fairly large chunk of change. This is unlike lvl 3+4 missions as all you really need is a t1 BS or BC and t2 mods, and nobody is going to gank them: complete safety. tl;dr: Blinky is wrong, we should nerf lvl 3 and 4 missions. Originally by: Roc Wieler I enhance my RP experience by filling my bathtub with red jello, balancing a wooden plank across it, then play EVE naked on my laptop.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:13:00 - [50] Edited by: Ambien Torca on 12/08/2008 18:13:48 Make agent spawn bunch of new level 4:s once per hour and then make players to bid who will do the mission with least payout, get competition back into PVE too. Companies outsource in real life too and lowest bidder who gets the job done is usually selected.
OneBrainCell	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:16:00 - [51] I do realize I'm a complete noob here and may be talking out my ass, but shouldn't the higher level mission objectives moving you to more dangerous territory? If not then that is the whole problem with mission running. Each level of mission should require more risk for a higher payout, so eventually L4 mission objectives should be in .4-.0 space? If there are L5 missions (forgive the newb) then shouldn't they have objectives that take you into 0.0 somewhere? To me the logical progression of level of missions should look something like. L1 - 1.0 -.8 - Cheap payout L2 - .8 - .5 - Better payout L3 - .6 - .4 - Average pay out L4 - .4 - .1 or below - This is where the fun should be L5 - 0.0 and beyond - Player made and/or story line expansion? Where you get the missions is really irrelevant. Is this not the way it is now? If not then it should be, because it seems natural to think of it that way. This way newbs like me could be introduced to lesser and lesser concord influence as time goes by and more exposure to player influences. It also seems logical to distribute ore fields in a similar way. If the game is not designed this way then this is a critical design flaw.
TalonClark	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:17:00 - [52] Something the OP will never understand: - ppl dont do the lvl4s because they want to maximise profit. they do it because its the best to do in highsec. - destroy that, and they do the next best thing in highsec, could be lvl3 or mining or trading or whatever. see? they want to do something in highsec. everything you nerf will not change that fact. all you get from this is that the casual players who make isk in highsec to then go pvp in FW or lowsec (all ppl who dont have access to 0.0 ressources) will do it less frequently because they need longer to get their ship.
Janey Talor	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:32:00 - [53] CCP Have already fixed the problem of lo-sec being empty by introducing Faction Warfare. Oh right, but they aren't the victims you wanted were they. Seriously, CCP can't win. Before FW the pirates were moaning because lo-sec was empty - now they complain the targets are not suitable.
Lunale	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:47:00 - [54] Edited by: Lunale on 12/08/2008 18:49:56 to the pirates who keep crying over people do missions in high sec and hardly any are in low sec, guess who is to blame? pirates, they are the ones who overrunned low sec so badly that it's just not worth the trouble anymore, so what if there is decent isk in it? all that isk is going some where you know, personally I use lvl 4 missions as a FUN (yes I do actually enjoy doing missions) way to get isk to pay for my 0.0 activities. oh bo ho, why don't you just rat in 0.0 and make 20mil/hour since you clearly have access to that? why be in empire and carebear? easy: 1. fun (IMO), I time myself on how fast I can get through missions. 2. When I'm trying to relax in eve and make a little isk while doing so, I really don't want to have local open and look there every 2 secs to see if some pirate gang has made it to where I rat. so really. move lvl 4 missions to low sec = a LOT less people will be doing missions. hm. where will those go I wonder.. ratting in 0.0? maybe, that will make it very annoying for those already there, fighting over the good systems and such. go into low sec? nah. honestly, I rather make 5mil an hour when I'm trying to relax then have to bother with PVP horny pirates trying to gang everyone, if you really love PVP That much, come out to 0.0 and fight, where people actaully expect a good fight and is geared for it, instead of lurking in low sec grinning to yourself "he he... I know people get xxx type missions here, so they are tanked vs yy damage, I totally pwn them with my *K damage!! and the best of it, they can't fight back because they are geared for stupid missions, noobs!!!" think that makes my point clear, if you really want a good fight, go to 0.0. if you want to gang people without a risk of them being able to kill you, well, sorry to say, no one like being an easy prey to someone else. CCP: don't fix what is not broken, moving stuff to low sec will just make PVP... wait. can't call tham that.. umm... vultures . yeah. that's a better word, makes the vultures jump every single mission runner again, and no one wanna do that anymore. instead many will look to do trading, with less profit and less risk, but better then any other option. remember, many of the carebears you *** about doing lvl 4 missions, are the same ones you don't want to meet in 0.0 because that will mean you actually have to fight fair ^^ the best fight is the one where either you or someone else comes out with 5% hull and a ship that looks like a minmatar playground, those are the moments you go "now THAT was a good fight!" or "damn! so close, next time I get him!!". anywya, enjoy your ganging of def. less people ^^ <-- Foxyvixen. sorry, didn't see the alt account was active
Phil Exon	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:48:00 - [55] what you wrote is not really a concern. however, pirating will flourish and low sec will become hard to live in. Worst part our main source of income will go to hell thus limiting the amount of pvping you can do leaving you to quit the game. Doubt such move would ever be undertaken by CCP.
FoxyVixen Amarr The Knights Templar Pure.	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:48:00 - [56] my apology, forgot my new laptop didn't have this account as it's default, Lunale is my old char, so no alt posting, sorry :) I am behind that post ---------------------------------- We are Amarr, we shall burn down our foes in a rain of lasers, and laugh as our foes weapons is washed off our armor. amen.
Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:11:00 - [57] Originally by: Corduroy Rab Like you said Tarminic your high sec mission runner is, in general, risk adverse. As it stands now running missions puts one in a more or less static location for decent periods of time whereby they can be scanned down and killed. So under the best circumstances the mission runner has to sink time into waiting for it to be clear to run the mission and under the worst they lose their ship. That's quite right. Some players simply don't like being ganked by other players. I know, it's strange and all. The worst isn't losing your ship. It's losing your ship and your pod. I had that happen to me from a 3 man warp-in in Aeschee. I nearly took the pointman Arazu from sheer DPS before he could warp, but then the gank BS came and I died in under 30 seconds. Pod died from lag on session change. It cost me a clone with some +5s in it.. I haven't been back to Aeschee since, not even to get the stuff in hangar there. The lowsec average mission runner makes 20M/hour, or so I read. A T2 fit Domi and the +5 clone above is a week worth of work. You wonder why someone won't risk a weeks worth for something that can die in 30 seconds to a typically unequal engagement? I have also been warped in on and ransomed, warped in on and had people attempt gankage and not be able to, and so forth... It happens. I still run missions in lowsec occasionally. I just pick systems I know are safer.... I also don't mind a reasonable level of risk. eg, just today I led an exploration expedition which saw us go deep into Period Basis, hoping BoB didn't notice us and drop a Capfleet on top of us. Was fun. But there is a point when the risk becomes pointless or unattractive. Frankly: 0.0 is safer than most of lowsec. The blue networks are stronger, and the areas controlled more substantial. The population density is also lower. That all makes it a lot more relaxing. In terms of my attitude to PvP : Consensual is very different from non-consensual. On the rare occasions that I'm on the hunt for PvP, it's an exhilierating feeling. It's a lot of fun. I know that I may die, may be podded. Emotionally, I'm prepared for the loss. I also only risk what I can afford to lose. Non-consensual PvP (eg Getting ganked in a mission) is totally different. It's a brutal ****, and quite traumatic... makes me wonder why I play the game sometimes. My sincere opinion is that people that enjoy that kind of one-sided affair are rather unpleasant.
Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:15:00 - [58] Originally by: Dracorimus I like my missioning in hi-Sec, as I like my low sec piracy on my alt, so I got the best of both worlds But seriously, it seems you only want easy ganks if your demanding all the people who are just happy to run missions to get their enjoyment out of this game to come into your low sec systems to get blown to hell and laughed at by you, just so you can get your kicks out of the game. There is no solution to this I think, let them be, they are happy to make isk their way, as you are yours, if it doesnt suit you, as they say, "adapt or die". Thankyou. Nice to hear from a pirate who doesn't expect people just to be lined up in front of their guns as an easy target. The critical thing is the scorn, too: "Har Har, I pwned j00 noob. You lose and suck at life, carebear. Why are you even running missions". Etc.
Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:18:00 - [59] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 12/08/2008 17:29:26 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 12/08/2008 15:57:04 To draw people out to Low Sec you are going to have to remove something from High Sec that everyone needs. The basic ore types for example. It's an ugly solution but by crap would it be effective. They did that already to an extent. Apparently is days of old the high end ores were available in highsec. Today, nobody mines in lowsec. Also I would like to add they created Lvl5 missions to get people into lowsec. That diden't work either ... Because you can't solo or AFK a level 5, basically. Well, you can, but you need some pretty good ships that probably need a nerf because of the very fact they can solo L5s. It's because the idea of ad-hoc fleet formation to do X doesn't work.
Jimer Lins Gallente Federation Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:24:00 - [60] Move L4s to lowsec, hisec runners will stick with L3s. Move L3s to lowsec, hisec runners will stick with L2s. Move L2s to lowsec, hisec runners will mine veldspar or quit. You cannot FORCE these players to jump through a gate into your gunsights. The calculus is pretty simple in most cases; run less profitable missions in safety and quickly, or more profitable missions in danger and much more slowly?

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