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Inoshuu
Caldari Lance Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.15 05:33:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Inoshuu on 15/08/2008 05:34:16 For all of those corporations that had IPO, do you guys actually do what you originally stated in the IPO?
If the business plan doesn't work out as well as I had hoped, I can go ahead and create a alt to put a Raven up for auction and advertise it as Raven Navy Issue and make easy 200 million off of it and pass it off as corporation profit.
Plus, Jita seems to be full of these Raven auction scams...oh well, more power to scammers.
Need weapons? Ammo? All at less than market price? Lance Heavy Industries |
Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.15 06:45:00 -
[2]
This is generally considered to be a poor business practice. Remember, if I run a manufacturing business and I run missions on the side (both true) I cannot consider my income from mission-running as part of the business. I also cannot count it as expenses, so any ammunition, ships, etc. come out of my own pocket.
What I do instead is I create an 'account' for myself within the corporation. I can freely deposit and withdraw ISK from this account, and it pays interest on par with other corporate liabilities. This allows me to invest my own ISK, refinance external debt with my own funds, et cetera.
Of course, you cannot count stocks as a liability, since they're an equity security as opposed to a debt security.
Packtu'sa [NCIC] Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp |
Rho'varo
Diversified Operational Services
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Posted - 2008.08.15 11:52:00 -
[3]
I haven't done such a thing myself, but wouldn't scamming/spamming "Navy Issue" Ravens in Jita be too competitive and/or labour intensive to make a sensible sustained business model? Even as a back-up plan?
Certainly a re-audit of the company's books should expose such a big deviation from the stated business plan. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any bonds or equities that have been re-audited after operating for a while, though perhaps someone with a better memory or search string than mine can highlight some examples.
Should businesses be re-audited? E.g., every six months?
Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 23:19:00 -
[4]
If you want to cook the books just buy GTCs and become a customer of your product in a couple of back-assward bunghole markets. It'd have to be one sharp auditor to expose that.
CNR scams are so 2007, fake faction modules are where the action is today.
This is exactly why there's so much respect for people able to pull off a public company. Eve changes constantly (if slowly), so a smart leader needs to be able to tell when the business plan is no longer viable and act quickly with an exit strategy.
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Mephie
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.16 21:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Packtu'sa What I do instead is I create an 'account' for myself within the corporation. I can freely deposit and withdraw ISK from this account, and it pays interest on par with other corporate liabilities. This allows me to invest my own ISK, refinance external debt with my own funds, et cetera.
Yeah, when we started our IPO we just made a figurehead toon to start a corp, handle shares, and hold/sell the assets. Makes bookkeeping a breeze.
--Meph
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.08.17 07:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Packtu'sa This is generally considered to be a poor business practice.
Whereas I would consider deviating from the original business plan to ensure profits was good business practise.
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.17 09:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Packtu'sa This is generally considered to be a poor business practice.
Whereas I would consider deviating from the original business plan to ensure profits was good business practise.
So long as you explain the situation amongst shareholders, and offer them the ability to get out if you do. That way everyone is happy.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Roguehalo
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.17 09:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Inoshuu Edited by: Inoshuu on 15/08/2008 05:34:16 For all of those corporations that had IPO, do you guys actually do what you originally stated in the IPO?
If the business plan doesn't work out as well as I had hoped, I can go ahead and create a alt to put a Raven up for auction and advertise it as Raven Navy Issue and make easy 200 million off of it and pass it off as corporation profit.
Plus, Jita seems to be full of these Raven auction scams...oh well, more power to scammers.
The idea that you can drag a contract into chat and then edit the title is just appalling coding.
Instead of fixing it CCP just left it giving rise to one of the most perverse scams in Eve.
Why is it perverse? Simple. It doesn't work because scammers are clever and players are stupid. It works because the brain creates an optical illusion. The creation of this optical illusion stops as soon as you learn about the scam but ofc then its too late for most people.
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.08.17 09:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal So long as you explain the situation amongst shareholders, and offer them the ability to get out if you do. That way everyone is happy.
Red tape can often be laborious, inhibiting and self-defeating. If it makes sense, do it, justify it later.
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.17 10:29:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Red tape can often be laborious, inhibiting and self-defeating. If it makes sense, do it, justify it later.
Within reason (tm)
So long as the new course of the venture allows you to have fairly liquid ISK. Take CD-RE for example, if he did that we'd be stuck for ISK until the caps came out...
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.08.17 11:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
Within reason (tm)
So long as the new course of the venture allows you to have fairly liquid ISK. Take CD-RE for example, if he did that we'd be stuck for ISK until the caps came out...
Sure, nothing is ever black and white. But CDRE would have been the perfect example where a deviation away from their modus operandi would've been suave business judgement.
Eventually it ended up being an issue with their payment commitments on the bond, had they had more fluidity with those and a few fall-back options things would've played out differently.
Liquid ISK wouldn't have much to do with things if they could continue payments.
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Rho'varo
Diversified Operational Services
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Posted - 2008.08.17 11:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Roguehalo The idea that you can drag a contract into chat and then edit the title is just appalling coding.
Instead of fixing it CCP just left it giving rise to one of the most perverse scams in Eve.
The ability to edit the text of a contract's link in chat has a legitimate use; e.g., I'd rather see links accurately named "Cosmos BPCs", "Cruiser BPCs" and "Rig BPCs" in the Blueprints channel than a string of "[Multiple Items".
Unfortunately, as with so many things, the few that abuse the system are permitted to ruin its effectiveness for the rest of us.
Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills |
Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.08.17 12:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rho'varo Unfortunately, as with so many things, the few that abuse the system are permitted to ruin its effectiveness for the rest of us.
I'd blame their victims' stupidity instead. Granted that may be like arguing murders are a result of the victims dying, but sometimes picking a fight with a seven-foot gun-wielding megalomaniac is stupid.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.08.17 12:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rho'varo Unfortunately, as with so many things, the few that abuse the system are permitted to ruin its effectiveness for the rest of us.
Originally by: Ray McCormack I'd blame their victims' stupidity instead. Granted that may be like arguing murders are a result of the victims dying, but sometimes picking a fight with a seven-foot gun-wielding megalomaniac is stupid.
By nature I want to be sympathetic to those who get stung by such scams but it only takes a few seconds to actually read a contract. I have yet to see a single CNR contract scam posted in Jita local that I would fall victim. You click on link, read contract, see "Raven" as the specific individual item, block contract maker, close contract. Life while in Jita made simple. Better to just never go.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Roguehalo
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.17 13:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Rho'varo Unfortunately, as with so many things, the few that abuse the system are permitted to ruin its effectiveness for the rest of us.
Originally by: Ray McCormack I'd blame their victims' stupidity instead. Granted that may be like arguing murders are a result of the victims dying, but sometimes picking a fight with a seven-foot gun-wielding megalomaniac is stupid.
By nature I want to be sympathetic to those who get stung by such scams but it only takes a few seconds to actually read a contract. I have yet to see a single CNR contract scam posted in Jita local that I would fall victim. You click on link, read contract, see "Raven" as the specific individual item, block contract maker, close contract. Life while in Jita made simple. Better to just never go.
It's amazing how you people post stuff without actuially reading what I said.
let me repeat
THE SCAMMERS ARE NOT CLEVER AND THE VICTIMS ARE NOT STUPID
THE SCAM WORKS BECAUSE THE BRAIN CREATES AN OPTICAL ILLUSION
One of the reasons I've left Eve is because of unintelligent posts as characterrized by Rays and Shars latest offerings.
If a new player sees a contract for a Raven Navy Issue and opens it then the brain will 'see' a Raven Navy Issue on offer.
That's the optical illusion
That's why and how the scam works
Once you've wised up to the scam you never fall for it again but that is, AS I SAID BEFORE, often too late for many
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.08.17 13:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Roguehalo It's amazing how you people post stuff without actuially reading what I said.
I wasn't even responding to you. But by all means enjoy your tantrum.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.08.17 13:53:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Shar Tegral on 17/08/2008 13:53:26
Originally by: Roguehalo It's amazing how you people post stuff without actuially reading what I said.
Wow, RogueKettle on the loose, RogueKettle on the loose. Originally by: Roguehalo THE SCAMMERS ARE NOT CLEVER AND THE VICTIMS ARE NOT STUPID THE SCAM WORKS BECAUSE THE BRAIN CREATES AN OPTICAL ILLUSION
Fine, from now on there are no stupid people. Just defective brains. Originally by: Roguehalo One of the reasons I've left Eve is because of unintelligent posts as characterrized by Rays and Shars latest offerings.
Woohoo, by posting intelligent drivel I've griefed a ***** out of Eve. Wait, it looks like he's still around. Damn. Originally by: Roguehalo If a new player sees a contract for a Raven Navy Issue and opens it then the brain will 'see' a Raven Navy Issue on offer.
A new player should not be trying to go out and buy a CNR just because it looks like a steal. You are right, the scam is not clever - never said it was. Never called the people stupid either. But almost all of them are adults who freely tell people "If it is too good to be true, it usually is." This is not to mention how many times this axiom has been pushed in pop culture. To avoid this your so called masses of victims have either been living under a rock or simply allowed themselves to forget such a simple thing. And, in closing, I was commenting on the posts I quoted. Sorry I did not quote your post or comment on it. In the future I will try to satisfy your ego by doing so or simply avoiding threads where you have posted so as not to offend your overly sensitized, or overblown, ego.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Roguehalo
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.17 14:22:00 -
[18]
Brains that create optical illusions are not defective :-
Linkage
I suggest you read carefully the bit about cognitive illusions since contract scams depend essentially on the brain creating one.
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Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.17 14:51:00 -
[19]
I can petition to CCP if I get contract scammed claiming I have been griefed due to mental hypnosis?
It's an interesting theory though Rogue however I can't really say I agree with it but I am no Doctor, Professor or scientist so I agree to not want to give an opinion on the matter |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.17 15:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Mr Horizontal So long as you explain the situation amongst shareholders, and offer them the ability to get out if you do. That way everyone is happy.
Red tape can often be laborious, inhibiting and self-defeating. If it makes sense, do it, justify it later.
The problem is if you think of the money as your money to do with as you wish. If that's your view then you should state it in your IPO launch thread. Otherwise, imo, you're mis-using the funds of your investors.
Too many people that run CEO's fail to remember they are not entitled to the money they get, they are supposed to earn it and continue proving why they deserve it.
If you have to change in any significant way the way you make money you should inform your shareholders. Otherwise you're abusing the truth they placed in you. They have to have the say as it's their money. If you don't like that you should either not take their money or you should get them to agree ahead of time to allow you to make any decision you'd like with their money and spend it on anything you'd like. If they still give it to you then it's your call.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.17 15:16:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Roguehalo Brains that create optical illusions are not defective :-
Linkage
I suggest you read carefully the bit about cognitive illusions since contract scams depend essentially on the brain creating one.
I don't care what you call it, if you click on a link that says "Caldari Navy Raven" in EVE and you don't re-read the contract about 5 times to make sure it actually says it then you deserve to lose your money, period.
A lazy person deserves to be relieved of his money, as does a stupid person. An optically illusionarily challenged person is just a cry baby for coming up with such a lame excuse for being tricked. Take responsibility for making a mistake, stop blaming it on things.
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Roguehalo
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.17 16:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Roguehalo Brains that create optical illusions are not defective :-
Linkage
I suggest you read carefully the bit about cognitive illusions since contract scams depend essentially on the brain creating one.
I don't care what you call it, if you click on a link that says "Caldari Navy Raven" in EVE and you don't re-read the contract about 5 times to make sure it actually says it then you deserve to lose your money, period.
A lazy person deserves to be relieved of his money, as does a stupid person. An optically illusionarily challenged person is just a cry baby for coming up with such a lame excuse for being tricked. Take responsibility for making a mistake, stop blaming it on things.
Again another stupid cerebrally challenged ENTRENCHED response
I'm not BLAMING contract scams on anything
I'm merely explaining HOW and WHY they work
Let me explain my own 1st encounter with contracts scams
F900EX posted a contract for a Raven Navy Issue in ships channel chat and said :- "HaHa look at that"
I looked at it and couldn't see anything wrong with it So I said :- "What's wrong with it?" and he replied :- "Take another look at it"
After looking at it closely again it eventually dawned on me that I was actually looking at a contract for a Raven.
Certain preconditions had been met here :-
1/ I didn't know that contract titles could be edited.
2/ I didn't know that contracts were used to scam people
3/ The contract contained part of what I was expecting to see and didn't contain anything I wasn't expecting to see.
As a result my brain was expecting to see a contract for a Raven Navy Issue and didn't therefore notice that the words Raven and Issue were actually missing. My brain just 'assumed' they were there. This is a 'cognitive' optical illusion and is the reason why so many people have been fooled by contract scams
It has NOTHING to do with laziness or stupidity
Having a 'strong' personality on these forums a la Shar Tegral Ray McCormck and Shadarle is no excuse for making intellectually defective posts or continually trotting out tired old entrenched opinions which are just plain wrong
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.08.17 17:20:00 -
[23]
Rogue, I suspect you're having a bad day; as you're not usually like this. But kindly leave me out of whatever hissy-fit you're having. I wasn't even directing my comments at you or responding to yours. Quite simply, you're calling everyone in this thread an idiot that doesn't agree with your somewhat clouded point of view. It's immature and wholly unreasonable.
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Amarr Citizen 155
Alternative Methods Research Group
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Posted - 2008.08.17 17:50:00 -
[24]
I wulod hvae to arege. Lte's all rlaex a ltilte bit and not tkae tihs terahd too suisoelry.
Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.17 20:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Roguehalo As a result my brain was expecting to see a contract for a Raven Navy Issue and didn't therefore notice that the words Raven and Issue were actually missing.
Which is exactly the point. You were expecting people were telling the truth when they posted something in an EVE channel. That is where the laziness/foolishness comes in, letting yourself believe it was going to be something.
Whenever I see anything I'm interested in buying I expect it to be untrue. I never let myself believe anything is what someone says it is. I convince myself they are lying unless I can see proof they are telling the truth. And in most cases it is in fact a scam. I actually usually spend 10-15 minutes when I see a good deal because I search for every possible way it could be a scam as it is quite rare to actually find great deals on contracts that aren't scams. If someone doesn't take this much time and they buy the item quickly then, as I said, they were lazy and deserve to be relieved of their money.
A dyslexic person can blame that for mistyping out a number or some such... but it makes no difference, it's still their fault for doing it and they still mistyped it. Every human has some shortcoming, it's up to the individual to overcome those and adapt. Blaming something we all suffer from is even lamer.
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Roguehalo
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.18 07:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Roguehalo As a result my brain was expecting to see a contract for a Raven Navy Issue and didn't therefore notice that the words Raven and Issue were actually missing.
Which is exactly the point. You were expecting people were telling the truth when they posted something in an EVE channel. That is where the laziness/foolishness comes in, letting yourself believe it was going to be something.
Whenever I see anything I'm interested in buying I expect it to be untrue. I never let myself believe anything is what someone says it is. I convince myself they are lying unless I can see proof they are telling the truth. And in most cases it is in fact a scam. I actually usually spend 10-15 minutes when I see a good deal because I search for every possible way it could be a scam as it is quite rare to actually find great deals on contracts that aren't scams. If someone doesn't take this much time and they buy the item quickly then, as I said, they were lazy and deserve to be relieved of their money.
A dyslexic person can blame that for mistyping out a number or some such... but it makes no difference, it's still their fault for doing it and they still mistyped it. Every human has some shortcoming, it's up to the individual to overcome those and adapt. Blaming something we all suffer from is even lamer.
As ever Shadarle you are missing the entire point of what I am saying.
The absolutely essential precondition for the creation of a cognitive optical illusion is that the brain is totally unsuspecting.
Your problem is that it's so long since you were totally unaware that contracts could be scams that you've forgotten how it felt or you were lucky and were warned(as I was) that contracts could be scams.
So I'm going to repeat myself YET AGAIN Shadarle in the hope that you will jettison your preconceived notions and actually read what I'm saying.
Contract scams DO NOT work because players are lazy or stupid.
They work because players are totally unsuspecting and unaware.
Once a player acquires the necessary knowledge about contract scams the possibility for the brain to create optical illusions is destroyed forever.
It's a one time effect that only affects noobs(i.e. noob to contracts not necessarily the game)
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Feronia
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.18 09:54:00 -
[27]
How a thread gets derailed to scamming practices. But since we're at this subject, I think the target public of scammers can be divided in 4 categories:
- The unaware: these people are mostly newbies, unaware of the fact scamming is allowed in this game and not knowing how the game mechanics work. These people fall for all kinds of scams, like freeform contracts, Jita local, Navy ship and faction module scams. They still think a GM will refund their loss after a petition. You can't really blame them for anything. We've all been a newbie at start and EVE is known for its steep learning curve, so they can't know every trick in the book. However, they learn fast and won't make the same mistake twice.
- The ignorant: the main target of scammers. These are the same people that ignore warning pop-up messages, fly Faction fitted ships AFK through low sec, move all their expensive stuff in a tech 1 hauler in Empire. They make decisions based on their own judgement and hope for the best. They usually fall for the Navy ship and faction module scams, but they also buy shuttles for 100 mill or sell their freighter at a WTB contract for 900k. They do some stupid things and usually blame the game mechanics for their loss. They come to the forum to whine about it and get support, but usually these threads end with:" Can I have your stuff ?". Unwillingly they keep the scammers in business. In some cases you could blame their young age, but in most cases they're just dumb. There's no hope for this people, they will never learn.
- The greedy: these people love good deals and are always on the lookout for one. They usually fall for the Jita local scams or personal convo scams. Whenever they are forced to make a decision under time pressure, they get nervous and skip to read all the little details. Their biggest fear is to miss a good deal. They accept contracts in a blink before anyone else might get it, dreaming of this one deal that will make them rich. Sadly this one deal will never come and they either give up after a while or start scamming themselves.
- The unlucky: these people are just having a bad day. Maybe they're too tired to play, maybe they're drunk, maybe the kids are yelling and screaming around them. There are lots of good excuses to cover up their small mistake. They usually double check everything before accepting, but in this one case they got interrupted, the cat jumped on the keyboard or the wife threatened to pull the plug in 2 minutes. However, they are not really upset by their loss and can laugh with it the next day. The difference with category 2 is, these people learn from their mistakes. They will postpone important deals until the kids are in bed, the wife is watching a soap and the cat is thrown outside.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.08.18 21:48:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Roguehalo Having a 'strong' personality on these forums a la Shar Tegral Ray McCormck and Shadarle is no excuse for making intellectually defective posts or continually trotting out tired old entrenched opinions which are just plain wrong
Well I'm not sure what other advice I can give other than, READ THE CONTRACT. After that ... caveat emptor. Let me reiterate, my nonchalance on this matter has nothing to do with how I feel. It is all about the very little I can actually do about it. And I've tried educating people and warning them. The only thing that does is get emotionally defective people like yourself yapping at me for being intellectually challenged for not doing more or coming up with a better solution. So, instead of trolling and ranting why don't you offer a solution? A workable solution that is, not some flight of fancy that may spring to mind. Till then... PS: I'm like Ray on this, I don't know where you are coming from but you are putting words and statements in my mouth that have never come out of my mouth. May help if you find someone "actual" to rail against. Less confusing for everyone else. |
Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.18 22:51:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 I wulod hvae to arege. Lte's all rlaex a ltilte bit and not tkae tihs terahd too suisoelry.
I don't really care, I just want some of what this guy is smoking tbh |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.08.18 23:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ricdics
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 I wulod hvae to arege. Lte's all rlaex a ltilte bit and not tkae tihs terahd too suisoelry.
I don't really care, I just want some of what this guy is smoking tbh
No way Ricdic, you may accidentally start a bush fire and we both know how serious those are in Australia. |
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