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Rhen Ayase
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:39:00 -
[1]
Comparing unnamed T1 (as the modules get slightly similir bonus with named/t2)
Rockets: 20m Signature Radius 2 Seconds Flight time 2250 m/s velocity 2000 m/s explosion velocity 25 damage 4 Seconds ROF
Light Missiles 40m Signature Radius 5 Seconds Flight Time 3750 m/s velocity 1750 m/s expl. vel. 75 damage 15 Seconds ROF
so a untrained light missile hits out to 18750m for 6 dps a rocket hits to 4500m for 6,25 dps
so you spend nearly 4 times the range for a little boost of 4% in dps
so now you can say rockets have advantage against very small targets with quite fast speed. but what are small targets? intis... even trained they will outrun your rockets and dont get a hit at all drones? light missiles will do the same job but still hit farther.
maybe cpu issues? yes thats the only real advantage, because ship with rocket bonus dont have much of them. but why should i fit my vengeance/malediction with rockets for 25% damage, if i can fit it with light launchers and get 4 times the range and have more chance to hit fast targets, without getting into webber range?
so i think its time for a real rocket buff, like: 20m Signature Radius 1 second flight time (50%) 6750 m/s velocity (300%) 3000 m/s explosion velocity (150%) 30 damage (120%) 3 Seconds ROF (75%)
so now they fly out to 6750m untrained (compared to 4500m) its a buffof 50% to range, but for that short range its not to much the explosion velocity is buffed so they can hold up with their new speed mod and do 10 dps unmodified. so they do about 66% more dps than light missiles, but only on 33% the range and have a better ability to hit their small and fast targets, what i think they are made for.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:52:00 -
[2]
If your point is rockets are weaksauce - I agree. As a caldari pilot I find absolutely NO reason to train Rocket Launcher Operation V - other than using it on a hawk, I see no real application for the skill.
Standard Missile Lancher V however is a must have skill for most caldari pilots. It gives you access to the single best kept secret in our arsenel - the Precision Light Missile, the ONLY missile fully capable of delivering effective DPS to most nano's and non pimped/snaked intys out there.
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Helkar Antonov
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Posted - 2008.08.15 16:48:00 -
[3]
The difference is much bigger then you think. Have you ever tried a crow with rockets, or any other frig, designed for using it? Not in eft, but in actual pvp? It eats standard crows for breakfast and so much more fun to fly :) A little suicide, but still, I hate flying crow with lights, horrible rof is just killing me, and I love it with rockets. Also, a comparison w\o skill is fail.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.15 16:52:00 -
[4]
I have Rockets L5 (and rocket spec IV) trained for the 4th highslot of my Rifters/etc/etc.
Yes, they do a bit weak DPS, but it's still better then standards and they're much easier to fit. Rocket range is good enough for webrange fighting, making it a solid auxiliary weapon system.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.15 16:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Helkar Antonov The difference is much bigger then you think. Have you ever tried a crow with rockets, or any other frig, designed for using it? Not in eft, but in actual pvp? It eats standard crows for breakfast and so much more fun to fly :) A little suicide, but still, I hate flying crow with lights, horrible rof is just killing me, and I love it with rockets. Also, a comparison w\o skill is fail.
True because that marginal difference grows to a pretty substantial one once skills are applied.
Plus, high damage rockets are actually somewhat feasable on the Hawk.
But I don't buy that rockets are good for anti-inty warfare. You'd have to be almost HUGGING them at even slow inty speeds to get a rocket to hit. That's just me though, you might have more success. Personally, interceptors aren't my style. I don't believe in fancy modules like "Warp Disruptors".
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:02:00 -
[6]
only reason to use rockets ATM is for their easier fitting
- Infectious - |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina only reason to use rockets ATM is for their easier fitting
But I get like 4 more DPS out of using rockets instead of lights on my Rifter! Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Helkar Antonov
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
But I don't buy that rockets are good for anti-inty warfare. You'd have to be almost HUGGING them at even slow inty speeds to get a rocket to hit. That's just me though, you might have more success. Personally, interceptors aren't my style. I don't believe in fancy modules like "Warp Disruptors".
I'm just flying it in taranis style, more fragile, little less damage, but more range (up to 15 km is really nice for close range frig-size weapon) and much faster. Ofcourse you have to web other inty to do damage, itĘs not hard to do, dangerous, but it is what makes it fun for me. All I want to say is that rockets have its use, but many people just donĘt know how to use it, or donĘt like, eft too much, I donno
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Helkar Antonov
Originally by: Derek Sigres
But I don't buy that rockets are good for anti-inty warfare. You'd have to be almost HUGGING them at even slow inty speeds to get a rocket to hit. That's just me though, you might have more success. Personally, interceptors aren't my style. I don't believe in fancy modules like "Warp Disruptors".
I'm just flying it in taranis style, more fragile, little less damage, but more range (up to 15 km is really nice for close range frig-size weapon) and much faster. Ofcourse you have to web other inty to do damage, itĘs not hard to do, dangerous, but it is what makes it fun for me. All I want to say is that rockets have its use, but many people just donĘt know how to use it, or donĘt like, eft too much, I donno
The real trouble isnt' EFT - it's the engagement range. As it stand a frigs only shot at survival is staying out of web range and moving fast - and rockets just BARELY sneak past web range on range bonused ships.
Something like the hawk or vengeance that can survive under the guns while webbed for a short while have their uses and a handful of rocket hawks/vengeance AF's can actually lay down some SERIOUS hurt on battleships, so long as they have an AB. The catch is, right NOW an MWDING battleship flies faster than an ABing AF (even plate heavy ships like mega's for example) so if the BS pilot is smart he just burns away from the lone AF and it becomes a game of gank/tank and the af will certainly lose. In a group with many webbers applied the issue goes away handily but it's difficult to find 3 - 5 people who are willing to give the seemingly suicidal notion of diving into point blank range with a battleship knowing it has a web in a ship that has long been seen as nearly useless a try.
Post speed nerf things look quite a bit sunnier for the Vengeance/Hawk. Both have stout active tanks and while they don't deliver OMGWTFBBQ levels of damage the 100 - 120 dps per ship combined with a VERY long life span against a battleship can lead to surprising results. One still won't kill a solo bs but 3 should be plenty. This might also lead to a possible application in anti-support operations on the ships but this is questionable right now.
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Pax Empyrean
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Posted - 2008.08.15 19:54:00 -
[10]
Quote: maybe cpu issues? yes thats the only real advantage
I think you're missing that little bit about rocket launchers taking less than half as much grid.
I agree that Rockets need a buff, but I think the changes you listed are a little much. Take off the RoF bonus and it'd be fine.
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Elurilmar
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Posted - 2008.08.15 20:11:00 -
[11]
If you are a close range pulse/blaster/autocannon pilot why the hell would you waste space on standards when you can get more dps and less fitting with rockets.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.08.15 20:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Derek Sigres If your point is rockets are weaksauce - I agree. As a caldari pilot I find absolutely NO reason to train Rocket Launcher Operation V - other than using it on a hawk, I see no real application for the skill.
Standard Missile Lancher V however is a must have skill for most caldari pilots. It gives you access to the single best kept secret in our arsenel - the Precision Light Missile, the ONLY missile fully capable of delivering effective DPS to most nano's and non pimped/snaked intys out there.
Rocket V is worth training for the Flycatcher alone if nothign else, I agree re: SMLs --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Rexthor Hammerfists
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.08.15 20:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 15/08/2008 20:21:25
Quote: The missiles performance depends alot on the ships and its bonuses theyre used on.
With this in mind, plus the changes presented to us ill try to make a list of what needs changed and what is ok as it is.
Rockets, as a shortrange frigate weapon they naturally werent used much, neither were acs - only blasters stood out but thats mostly thanks to the ships they can be put on.
Id say Rockets are okish, their dmg above small missiles dont really justify the smaller range tho - the only reason to fit rockets is to safe pg and cpu.
How about making rockets more interesting, make them like torpedos - bigger explosion sig then most frigs sig radius, slow and a average explosion velocity but on the other hand more dmg then they do atm.
Standard Missiles seem fine as they are to me, hardly too damaging, but with the speedchanges always hitting they maybe need a explosion velocity reduction so mwding frigs can reduce the dmg, would need to be checked. Cruisers with assault launchers will murder frigs, but so will ruptures with dual 180mm acs or vexors with medium drones.
Heavy missiles let them as they re.
Heavy Assault Missiles - same as rockets, make them more like torps.
Cruise launchers, slower explosion velocitiy as ships are getting slower, but i also would give em the same epxlosion radius torps have.
What they have going for them is their range and low fitting requirements - i dont see them having to be able to slaughter cruisers as they can now.
Torps, adjust explovelo to speedchanges - just plz dont overdo it ;) Make them slower in general but up their flight time so the range stays the same - so they still have the range advantage over most closerange guns - but the missile advantage of the missile flighttime which you atm just dont feel.
Also change ships missile velocity bonus to flighttime.
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Boosters and PirateProfessions
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Mara Kell
Steel Beasts
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Posted - 2008.08.15 20:48:00 -
[14]
There is another overlooked reason to use HAMs and Rockets. Unlike Caldari ships all Khanid ships have some HAM/Rocket only bonuses. So we simply have to accept those 4 DPS more and allmost no range on rockets.
And to be honest im still wondering why CCP did so with the Khanid bonuses.
I mean is there any turret ship with a bonus like "5% damage to artilery only"? So why are Khanid ships exlcuded from using long range missile weapons?
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 20:51:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 15/08/2008 20:51:29 I'd be happy if rockets got a bit more range/damage. Otherwise, both the Hawk and the Vengeance have such ungodly tanks that anything short of a HAC or DPS cruiser will have a hard time making a dent. _
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.15 21:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mara Kell There is another overlooked reason to use HAMs and Rockets. Unlike Caldari ships all Khanid ships have some HAM/Rocket only bonuses. So we simply have to accept those 4 DPS more and allmost no range on rockets.
And to be honest im still wondering why CCP did so with the Khanid bonuses.
I mean is there any turret ship with a bonus like "5% damage to artilery only"? So why are Khanid ships exlcuded from using long range missile weapons?
Because, Amarr's forte by and large is not range.
Look at the Sacriledge - it HANDILY bests the Cerberus in pure gank/tank or gank/tank/nano configurations with ham and a toe to toe slugging match between the two nets a Sacriledge win shy of idiot piloting by the Sac pilot or a a minimum skill sac pilot versus a vertern Cerb pilot.
But the cerb bests the Sacriledge in all things requiring range.
Vengeance delivers just about as much dps as the Hawk and tanks just as hard (harder really thanks to that robust cap). But where the Hawk can deliver dps and tank, it isn't going to takle - that is a job best suited for the Vengeance.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.15 21:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rhen Ayase Comparing unnamed T1 (as the modules get slightly similir bonus with named/t2)
Rockets: 20m Signature Radius 2 Seconds Flight time 2250 m/s velocity 2000 m/s explosion velocity 25 damage 4 Seconds ROF
Light Missiles 40m Signature Radius 5 Seconds Flight Time 3750 m/s velocity 1750 m/s expl. vel. 75 damage 15 Seconds ROF
so a untrained light missile hits out to 18750m for 6 dps a rocket hits to 4500m for 6,25 dps
75/15 = 5
Or am I missing something here?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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Rhen Ayase
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Posted - 2008.08.15 22:09:00 -
[18]
oh... than its my failure, but still the velocity is a bit slow to catch up with things that have the signature radius :>
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0btuse
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Posted - 2008.08.15 23:33:00 -
[19]
Edited by: 0btuse on 15/08/2008 23:34:13 look on the bright side.
T2 bloodclaw fury light missle. v Javelin Thorn Rocket. rocket hits further and does more dps .
fof light with fof skill at lev 5 v standard light - standard light does more dps fof heavy and fof cruise lev 5 fof skill v heavy or cruise = same damage.
Light missiles in general need a viable use. (yes precision on a cerb is useful) Tho I think its a launcher problem more than a missle problem - the exception being the fury and fof variants. - ( total over haul needed)
Not much more to be sed
Kindest Regards
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2008.08.16 00:06:00 -
[20]
I find your lack of understanding disturbing.
Have you gone into low sec with minimal rocket and missile skills and started laying waste to NPC cruisers? trust me when I say rockets will eat them slowly but surely to death, whereas missiles will hit, then the damage will be repaired ad nauseam. Rockets do exactly the job they were meant to do, and do it just fine.
The only problem rocket launchers have is this: 'arbalest' rocket launcher i A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really inte ... 'malkuth' rocket launcher i A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really inte ... rocket launcher i A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really inte ... 'limos' rocket launcher i A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really inte ... oe-5200 rocket launcher A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really inte ... rocket launcher ii A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really inte ...
Their flavor text denotes them as a supplemental weapon, and with such low capacity I would agree. What We need is another set of rocket launchers with a .1-.2 standard increase to ROF, as well as double the capacity of the current rocket launchers, at double the CPU and PG usage. Vengeances have way to much unused CPU and PG, and with a rocket launcher like this, they would finally have something in the way of a meaningful weapon system.
You also forgot to add ammo/reload time into the equation as a DPS modifier, since reloading = lower DPS, and the more often you do it, the more DPS you lose.
Bigger capacity launchers, slightly faster ROF, double PG and CPU use. I'd be fine with that.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.16 00:32:00 -
[21]
That description hasn't changed since like, 2003. Used to be that Rocket Launchers could only hold 3 Rockets; but they fired all 3 in the space of a second or so. Looked pretty cool
- Infectious - |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.16 06:11:00 -
[22]
Rockets need a rof boost. Everyone knows that. The suckyness of rockets is mainly gimping amarr ships that have no choice to choose between light missiles and rockets. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.16 07:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Rockets need a rof boost. Everyone knows that. The suckyness of rockets is mainly gimping amarr ships that have no choice to choose between light missiles and rockets.
I see, boost caldari ONLY when it's going to boost your ships more
Still, I LIKE the vengeance. It's one of the reasons I trained amarr frigate V. That and I have all the T2 ships for caldari through cruiser so I may as well have the option to quickly jump into amarr if I suddenly feel the need to shoot more lasers at stuff (sometimes you just want to see beams rather than blobs come off your ship)
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.08.16 08:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 16/08/2008 08:31:36
Originally by: Rawr Cristina That description hasn't changed since like, 2003. Used to be that Rocket Launchers could only hold 3 Rockets; but they fired all 3 in the space of a second or so. Looked pretty cool
Whatever happened to that idea? That'd be sweet.
I've seen several beta videos, in which some of the coolest stuff was taken out (like missile hits and ship explosions) |
Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.08.16 10:38:00 -
[25]
rockets have many MANY disadvantages to missiles... for only 20% dps more, yes they need a boost
OH YEAH! CCP! by the way, you realize the t2 rocket sand the t2 hams are borked eh? the t2 hams have better explosion velocity than the rockets.. go figure eh? (or explo rad, cant remember, but reason why i moved up to ships using hams instead) _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
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