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AndzX11
Caldari Siorai Iontach
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Posted - 2008.08.17 22:05:00 -
[1]
Not going into long talk, here is the problem. Should you be a pilot that has negative standings for a certain(any) pirate faction it is impossible to raise the faction standing back up again if it is below -2.
Empire agents appear to work like this: 1. Faction Standing below -2 = Unable to use faction agents 2. Positive standings acquired through gang missioning to a corp = can use that corps agents. 3. Gangs can be used to get ruined factional standings back up by doing storyline missions.
0.0 Pirate agents appear to work like this: 1. Same as empire agents. 2. Positive standings acquired through gang missioning to certain npc corp = still cannot use even that corps agents if faction standing below -2. 3. Cannot acquire faction standings through gang storyline missions.
Current solutions are: 1. Don't ruin the standings. 2. Get another account or make another char on the same account and train that up to do the missions.
That being said, we all start in empire and most of us run missions to make money. When we get enough of empire and decide to move to 0.0 if any us want to do missions for pirate factions most of us are limited to choose from them and some can't do any pirate missions and there isn't any way to get pirate faction standings back up. There should be a way to do that.
Solutions: 1. Make it possible to gain factional standings to pirate factions by doing gang storyline missions. 2. If not storylines then at least make it so that if you have a positive standing gained by gang missions to a NPC pirate corp that its agents alone can be used. 3. Some way to level out pirate faction standings, perhaps getting sufficient amount of some sort of dog tags and donating them to the pirate factions as "bribes" that allow to get them to -1 or even -1.99 to be able to use the worst agents of that factions corps at least. 4.Another solution.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.17 22:35:00 -
[2]
The obvious fix is to have gang completion of storyline missions result in faction standings changes for all members of the gang. The fact this isn't in place at the moment is actually rather perplexing - it makes negative standings absolutely irrecoverable(and large swathes of empire thus absolutely inaccessible) with no possible recourse, assuming you annoy the allied factions enough as well(which is, of course, entirely possible). I don't like actions that cannot be fixed somehow. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Jeirth
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.18 00:50:00 -
[3]
I don't think ganged storylines are the answer, as you would need someone able to get the missions in the first place. Maybe introduce (or change some existing agents) new agents which allow people to do missions to gain standings with the pirate faction i.e. do 16 missions and get to go to a pirate faction storyline agent. The missions should be scaled on your negative standings -0.01 to -3.0 equivalent to level 2 for example. As your standings with the pirate faction increase, the effectiveness of the agent decreases gradually until you can use a normal pirate faction agent. As you are generally hated by the pirate faction I think the mission giver would be an astrosurveying agent equivalent, giving lots of different types of missions, from mining to kill, reducing the effectiveness (hopefully) of macros in grinding pirate LP's for ships, thus crashing the market in them. I think this would allow those who wish to go the pirate faction route, whether for rp or other reasons, a chance without needing a character who already has pirate faction standings to gang with.
Whatever else, I think the issue needs to be looked at.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.18 01:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jeirth I don't think ganged storylines are the answer, as you would need someone able to get the missions in the first place. Maybe introduce (or change some existing agents) new agents which allow people to do missions to gain standings with the pirate faction i.e. do 16 missions and get to go to a pirate faction storyline agent. The missions should be scaled on your negative standings -0.01 to -3.0 equivalent to level 2 for example. As your standings with the pirate faction increase, the effectiveness of the agent decreases gradually until you can use a normal pirate faction agent. As you are generally hated by the pirate faction I think the mission giver would be an astrosurveying agent equivalent, giving lots of different types of missions, from mining to kill, reducing the effectiveness (hopefully) of macros in grinding pirate LP's for ships, thus crashing the market in them. I think this would allow those who wish to go the pirate faction route, whether for rp or other reasons, a chance without needing a character who already has pirate faction standings to gang with.
Whatever else, I think the issue needs to be looked at.
If it's valuable, there will be a market in it. That's one of the great things about Eve. If it were possible right now, my corp would definitely sell faction standings, and I can't imagine we're alone in that. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.08.18 01:19:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mister Xerox on 18/08/2008 01:24:36
Originally by: AndzX11
3. Gangs can be used to get ruined factional standings back up by doing storyline missions.
Incorrect. Gangs get agent/corp standings, but get nothing for assisting in completing storyline missions.
You are right in that your pirate standings, by the time you can typically enter 0.0, are irrecoverable. All of mine are -8 or worse.
IMO all 'mission rats' should be of the subfaction type (corelli, gist, ect ect) and not have any direct impact on the targeted factions. Ratting in empire, likewise, should be against the subfaction rats with standing loss only coming from killing command rats (Shadow, True, ect ect), based on the size of the ship rather than just the current (and rather heavy, IMO) static standing loss.
I can attack a player and loose like 0.02%, but attack a rat and it's like 0.8% (every 15 minutes).
Ratting in 0.0 should have standings loss to that faction exactly equal to your CONCORD security status gain.
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Calla Vee
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Posted - 2008.08.18 08:28:00 -
[6]
It should be easier to repair pirate faction than Empire. I'd argue there could be a point-of-no-return for Empire, but pirates are killers, thieves, and so on. They shouldn't have much problem accepting you, even after you blazed a bloody swathe through them for profit - a lot of them probably did the same before joining up.
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Ankhesentapemkah
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Posted - 2008.08.18 18:24:00 -
[7]
Missions have made it to the agenda so I'll try to mention this. If I can't bring it up I'll support it for the next round. ---
Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
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Matalino
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.18 19:20:00 -
[8]
While I support the idea of allowing you to fix your standings, I don't think that sharing faction standings in a gang is the answer, as it makes it too easy to build faction standings on an alt.
I would suggest making the minumum standings requirement variable with agent level/quality.
Currently your highest standing must be Level*2 + Quality/20 - 2.
I would suggest making it so that your lowest effective standing must exceed Level*2 + Quality/20 - 7, instead of the current flat -2.0 minimum standing.
This would ensure that you can always work for a Level 1, Quality -20 agent, if you have Diplomacy V. As such your standings can always be fixed.
It also rises the barrier of entry for higher level missions, that will counter balance the extreme ease which access to those agents has had since the introduction of shared standings gains.
By rebalancing the ease of access to those higher level agents, it ensures that the road to repentance is not too easy for those who have made an effort to offend an entire faction. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.18 19:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Matalino While I support the idea of allowing you to fix your standings, I don't think that sharing faction standings in a gang is the answer, as it makes it too easy to build faction standings on an alt.
I would suggest making the minumum standings requirement variable with agent level/quality.
Currently your highest standing must be Level*2 + Quality/20 - 2.
I would suggest making it so that your lowest effective standing must exceed Level*2 + Quality/20 - 7, instead of the current flat -2.0 minimum standing.
This would ensure that you can always work for a Level 1, Quality -20 agent, if you have Diplomacy V. As such your standings can always be fixed.
It also rises the barrier of entry for higher level missions, that will counter balance the extreme ease which access to those agents has had since the introduction of shared standings gains.
By rebalancing the ease of access to those higher level agents, it ensures that the road to repentance is not too easy for those who have made an effort to offend an entire faction.
So for a L4Q20, I'd need corp standing and faction standing of 2? That seems way too easy. I like the idea, but I don't think your numbers work. I'm almost tempted to say a L1Q-160 agent should be added to each faction(with an in-station storyline agent) somewhere in lowsec, and otherwise leave the system as is. But really, the gang system is a better one - it's a smaller change, and it makes things work the way that they seem like they should. |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.08.18 19:43:00 -
[10]
It theory a change on how easy is to recover faction standing when it is in the deep negative is already under consideration, or at least that was some Dev said in the threads about Faction Warfare, as FW will destroy a lot of people standing with half of the empires.
Adding something for 0.0 pirate corps will be only logic.
Another good change would be to modify belt rats, at least in the NPC rat regions, so that ratting there you will not destroy your standing with the NPC station owners. |
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Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.18 22:08:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Matalino on 18/08/2008 22:21:10
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So for a L4Q20, I'd need corp standing and faction standing of 2? That seems way too easy.
I think you misunderstand what I am suggesting: instead of using a fixed value for the lower standings requirement, use a formula similar to the upper standings requirement for the lower requirement.
Currently a L4Q20 agent will not talk to you unless one of your standings is 7.0 and all three of your standings are -2.0.
I am suggesting that a L4Q20 agent should not talk to you unless one of your standings is 7.0 and all three of your standings are +2.0.
If you think that my suggestion is "way too easy" what do you think of the current system?
Right now starting with no standings at all, to gain access to a level 4 agent, you only need to share 15-30 missions (depending on the agent's quality) with someone who already has access to that agent. That is something that I think is "way too easy."
Removing the need to run missions yourself to gain faction standings would be beyond "way too easy."
My suggestion ensures that L1Q-20 agents are always accessible, but also ups the requirements for L3 & L4 agents so that it takes more work with lower agents before they are accessible. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.18 22:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So for a L4Q20, I'd need corp standing and faction standing of 2? That seems way too easy.
I think you misunderstand what I am suggesting: instead of using a fixed value for the lower standings requirement, use a formula similar to the upper standings requirement for the lower requirement.
Currently a L4Q20 agent will not talk to you unless one of your standings is 7.0 and all three of your standings are -2.0.
I am suggesting that a L4Q20 agent should not talk to you unless one of your standings is 7.0 and all three of your standings are +2.0.
If you think that my suggestion is "way too easy" what do you think of the current system?
Right now starting with no standings at all, to gain access to a level 4 agent, you only need to share 15-30 missions (depending on the agent's quality) with someone who already has access to that agent. That is something that I think is "way too easy."
Removing the need to run missions yourself to gain faction standings would be beyond "way too easy."
My suggestion ensures that L1Q-20 agents are always accessible, but also ups the requirements for L3 & L4 agents so that it takes more work with lower agents before they are accessible.
So you would need an agent standing of 2.0 to talk to the agent? Are you saying that people ought to need Negotiation 5 in order to be able to use anything better than a L4Q12? I can't support that. That said, if you amend your proposal to merely change the needed faction standing from -2.0 to (required standing - 5), I would actually like that.
The "way too easy" comment was due to a misread of your proposal.
Also, I don't think mission-sharing is a bad mechanic at all. For disclosure's sake, I've used it to get my current agent of choice(and paid a fairly hefty price to my gangmate to do so), but I approved of the addition of gang completion well before I started using the system. It even makes sense in RP terms - "Yeah, I know he's shot up a lot of your stuff before, but he's been really helpful in doing all that stuff you wanted done. He's not such a bad guy, now is he?". Plus, it makes the current system meet expectations - the fact that you only share some standings changes with gangmates is bizarre and counterintuitive. |
Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.18 23:46:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So you would need an agent standing of 2.0 to talk to the agent? Are you saying that people ought to need Negotiation 5 in order to be able to use anything better than a L4Q12?
Connections V or run 1-2 missions with a friend as a "referal" to get the base standings agent standing: after all we are talking about some of the best agents available.
Now that you mention it, a cap on the lower standings requirement would be needed to ensure continued access to level 5 agents: don't know where we would want to put that cap (-2.0, 0.0, or +2.0) but I am sure that any of those would work fine, with the suggested formula covering lower quality agents.
Perhaps excluding agent standings, and only applying the minimum requirement to corp/faction standings, would work as I doubt there is likely to be too much of a problem with someone declining missions (to select the very best) plunging their agent standings and retaining access to that agent with corp/faction standings, since they will lose standings with all three by declining too many missions.
The big problem with gang-sharing faction standings is the possiblity for power leveling faction standings gain. Currently, you must accept the regular missions in order to gain the faction standings. While you can get help completing those missions, you must be online and playing for all 16 of those regular missions. If you could share storyline standings gains, you would only need to be online for the one mission.
Having shared missions count towards everyone storyline frequency would run similar problems, as people would be able to get 10 storyline mission accoss 10 characters by running only 16 missions, instead of 160 missions. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.19 00:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Matalino The big problem with gang-sharing faction standings is the possiblity for power leveling faction standings gain. Currently, you must accept the regular missions in order to gain the faction standings. While you can get help completing those missions, you must be online and playing for all 16 of those regular missions. If you could share storyline standings gains, you would only need to be online for the one mission.
Having shared missions count towards everyone storyline frequency would run similar problems, as people would be able to get 10 storyline mission accoss 10 characters by running only 16 missions, instead of 160 missions.
What's wrong with that? If you're willing to pay someone to power-level you, why shouldn't you be allowed? And it's not like it'd be especially fast - storylines don't provide large bumps to faction standings, and they'd be even smaller once you start splitting them 2(or 10) ways. |
Herring
Alcatraz Inc. Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.19 05:56:00 -
[15]
The mutual exclusion standing mechanics do suck for pirate factions as it stands now. You'd think that doing missions for gallent should get you + to guristas for example (both being fairly anti-caldari).
It shouldn't be +standing to any empire = -standing to ALL pirate factions. |
AndzX11
Siorai Iontach
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:17:00 -
[16]
Almost forgot to support it myself. |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Crystal Ship
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Posted - 2008.08.20 12:13:00 -
[17]
A simple way to deal with this, while not allowing Storyline farming in the way described above would be:-
Run a regular Encounter mission as a gang - ALL Members of the Gang who entered the Final Room of the Encounter Grid before the Mission shows as being completed get one mission towards the Storyline Requirement. A Mission cannot be handed in as complete unless the Mission Holder was present in the grid when the mission is shown as complete. This eliminates the possibility of one High Standing Character taking a gang out to a mission site then returning to sit safe in station while his gang completes the mission.
No Gang Completion for Courier Missions.
This way, the only ways to gain missions towards the Threshold when you're not the Mission Holder is to either Gang up on Kill Missions or Mining Missions, both of which should take a reasonable amount of time to complete and have a reasonable amount of risk involved per mission in comparision to Courier Missions.
Once a Gang Member reaches the threshold a Storyline agent of the appropriate Faction will contact him to offer him a Storyline mission. This works exactly like a standard Storyline Mission i.e. Only the person getting the Mission gets the Standings Increase. |
Nathan Serpico
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Posted - 2008.09.11 08:31:00 -
[18]
/signed
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.09.12 08:34:00 -
[19]
Diary of a pod pilot |
Artemis Rose
Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.09.12 08:49:00 -
[20]
Just two things.
1. Gang storylines are not a good idea imho, as it would make having a high (or low) Faction statnding absolutely trivial.
2. From an RP respective, to get past -5.0 with a certain faction, you may have literally killed millions of their ship crew members and destroyed thousands of their ships. I wouldn't get over that for anything, and I can't imagine governments/pirates can either.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.09.12 13:50:00 -
[21]
Yeah, it'd be nice if there was a way to get out of the standings hole and with my support, I offer this idea to achieve that.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.09.12 18:02:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/09/2008 18:02:06
I support this, but whatever happens I hope it doesn't become so trivial as to make standings near meaningless.
If you get a faction to the point where they hate your guts it should take a significant and consistent effort to get back on their bright side. You should be able to change your mind and work your way back, but it shouldn't be the kind of thing players would want to do on anything approaching a regular basis.
------------------------------- Hi-Sec: A place for the average player to make a safe income, not the place for the average player to make the best income. |
Chani Fedaykin
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Posted - 2008.10.19 23:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: AndzX11Empire agents appear to work like this: 1. Faction Standing below -2 = Unable to use faction agents 2. Positive standings acquired through gang missioning to a corp = can use that corps agents. 3. Gangs can be used to get ruined factional standings back up by doing storyline missions.[/quote i dont think that is correct.
ad 3) afaik ganged storyline missions will only give a faction gain to the person that accepts/returns the mission. the others will just gain personal and corp standings.
ad 2) this is not correct (verified with a friend ingame) as soon as you have -2 faction OR corp OR personal standing you wont be able to use ANY related agent no matter what your other standings are. eg -2 amarr standings / +5 kador family standings = no kador family agents available (or in general: unable to use ANY amarr empire agents, no matter what corp / personal standings you have)
so basically empire factions work the same as pirate factions (i would have been very surprised if there would have a difference). as soon as you reach -2 faction standings the only chance (as it is now) is to get derived faction standings by running important missions for a faction that is liked by your 'screwed' faction
assembly hall: [issue]stuck faction standings old thread (locked): eliminate 'stuck' faction standings
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.19 23:45:00 -
[24]
Quote: 3. Gangs can be used to get ruined factional standings back up by doing storyline missions.
afaik this isnt true. Unless it changed fairly recently.
Quote: That being said, we all start in empire and most of us run missions to make money. When we get enough of empire and decide to move to 0.0 if any us want to do missions for pirate factions most of us are limited to choose from them and some can't do any pirate missions and there isn't any way to get pirate faction standings back up. There should be a way to do that.
how much is a set of full snakes/slaves/crystals?
It's because doing missions is hard in low sec, 0.0... once you add in the fact that most people totally ruin their pirate faction standings... mine are all like -10. We cant do anything in 0.0 for missions. The even worse fact is that when u do missions for them... your standing with empires drop quick and often make it impossible to return to high sec. Which is bad because most people who go out to 0.0 eventually make their way back to high sec for whatever reason. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
MaRODD
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Posted - 2008.10.20 04:42:00 -
[25]
Ohh Please fix this. |
TimMc
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2008.10.21 09:51:00 -
[26]
Personally, if you killed hundreds of my men, no amount of talking and money would get you into good graces with me.
However, this is a game and should be fun and flexible.
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Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:47:00 -
[27]
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Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 13:29:00 -
[28]
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
ScratchTheSkin
Kinetic Vector
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:22:00 -
[29]
so guys i have a negative -2.00 with minmitar and a negative -2.07 with gallante not that this was done on purpose but was done all the same, doe,s this mean i am never gonna de able to get those faction standings back up , in which case if i only work caldari and amarr means that these 2 nagative standings i have will lower even more till eventually i cant enter their space . rampage eternal
head diplomat
ka-tet |
iudex
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.11.07 14:05:00 -
[30]
You have to chose what pirate faction you can run mission for based on what empire you worked for. For every empire faction there are neutral pirate factions, that don't lose standing when you do empire storylines.
For example Guristas (as the main enemies of Caldari) are neutral to Gallente for obvious reasons ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend"). Angel Cartel and Serpentis are neutral to Caldari. There is no level 4 missions that requires you to kill Serpentis (in WC you can chose to run against Guristas, "Cargo Delivery" doesn't require to kill ships). Angel Cartel ships only appear at Angel Extravaganza, if you reject that mission you can work up your way to Caldari faction standing +10 without losing any standings with Serpentis/Angel Cartel, and later do missions for that pirates without ruining your Caldari standing (they don't give missions against Caldaris either, no derived standing loss).
Find a pirate faction that is neutral to the empire faction which you run missions for. If you got your faction standing below -2 by doing that rare missions which are given to you against a neutral pirate faction, you can still get the faction standing up by running missions to small side faction pirates, that are liked by the pirate faction which you want to run missions for (check the standing tab of that side pirate faction), for example Thukkers or The Syndicate for Angels/Serpentis (in case Thukkers have storyline agents, didn't check that).
_________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88
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