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Kingston Black
Indiscipline Incorporated
6
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
This change sounds perfectly respectable i cant believe people are actually moaning about a suggestion like this.
As a lowsec pirate i cant see this affecting my ability to pew people in the face at all.
DEATH TO TEH CARRIERS REPPING CYNOS!!!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5747
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Onictus wrote: Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well. Lol don't be last.
He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see. To clarify: they're separating the mechanics for aggression and timers. Some specific act may trigger either or both, but they won't actually depend on each other in any way.
So getting the aggression flag that gives you gate fire is a separate issue from inheriting timers. It's the fomer part that hasn't quite been decided on yet: what flags will cause sentry fire, and how those flags will be inherited.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
107
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Onictus wrote: Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well. Lol don't be last.
He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see. The remote assisting of something that is taking sentry gun fire already gives the "logistic" agression from the sentry guns as far as I know, but they are able to jump/dock (thats the difference thats going to be changed)
Yeah, that was my point. Before at least you could jump and bail. Now you'll be primary and under gate fire and unable to leave system.
In null it means that any fc that doesn't want to loose thier logi isn't going to be fighting against a gate. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
22
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:25:00 -
[34] - Quote
One thought occurs to me (it may have been answered already, hard to tell from a black screen ) and that's what happens to an inherited timer from a ship which gets destroyed?
It's not a likely scenario I admit but anything's possible, let's assume that you have a newbie along in a fairly obviously fragile ship and he accidentally shoots the gate (or perhaps he's a spy and does it deliberately) giving the logis a fresh timer. The hostiles pop him and send him home the quick way... Are you left with a logi (or group of logis) fully committed to a frozen corpse because they still have timers?
In highsec there's a built in protection because shooting gate or station will be a criminal act and a new aggression and the logi's RR will shut down automatically so they don't pick up a timer from CONCORD but in null... |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
899
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:35:00 -
[35] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:So the question is has anyone at CCP considered the effect that these changes will have on non-neutral RR? Because I'm going to be a tad miffed if the 30 days I spent training logi 5 suddenly becomes worthless just too appease high sec crybabies.
1st Eve law, don't fly a ship you can't afford to loose.
The only crycrap I see around is a brainless arrogant pubbie crying because he trained logi V and he's now afraid, yes afraid, of loosing a ship.
Cry me a river.
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
899
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:38:00 -
[36] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Bubanni wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Onictus wrote: Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well. Lol don't be last.
He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see. The remote assisting of something that is taking sentry gun fire already gives the "logistic" agression from the sentry guns as far as I know, but they are able to jump/dock (thats the difference thats going to be changed) Yeah, that was my point. Before at least you could jump and bail. Now you'll be primary and under gate fire and unable to leave system. In null it means that any fc that doesn't want to loose thier logi isn't going to be fighting against a gate.
Ho really? Your null sec gates have sentry now? -lazy poster is lazy.
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baltec1
853
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
Yeah, that was my point. Before at least you could jump and bail. Now you'll be primary and under gate fire and unable to leave system.
In null it means that any fc that doesn't want to loose thier logi isn't going to be fighting against a gate.
The logi can jump at the same time as everything else that was agressed. I see no problem. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5747
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
This change simply means this: remote support ships (excluding, so far, GǣpassiveGǥ support like fleet bonuses) that are commited to the fight willGǪ wellGǪ have to commit to the fight just as much as the ships they're supporting.
Don't want to commit to the fight and risk losing your repper/remote-support? Then live without the bonuses they provide. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
107
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Posted - 2012.03.23 10:51:00 -
[39] - Quote
No in null you are bubbled and unable to jump away through the gate or otherwise.......so if the logi picks up a timer they are toast.
So the standard practice of logi covering the fleet leaving system ends. Because you won't have much logi left is there is force chasing you. ........where the **** did you gate guns in null....
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Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc
138
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Posted - 2012.03.23 12:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:I remmeber suggesting RR agression months ago... this is a good thing! very very good thing
We are talking about logistic ships being being committing to the field if they assist... (in low sec and null sec) we are talking about carriers in null/low sec being unable to dock up instantly if they are repping their fleet on the undock (and thus can be bumped off or hotdropped) we are talking about more deaths overall... deaths are good yo
How do people like you not drown in the rain is a constant mystery to me.
You are just like the "move Lv4 missions to low" idiots who are convinced that doing so will create a stream of shinny officer fit faction ships going into low to provide them targets
You won't see more kills in those situations because people will change their behaviors, there won't be more carriers bumped off station from this change because the change will result in no carriers being pulled out to RR on a station.
Not having the option to disengage on a gate will make engaging on a gate less likely as well
It is entirely possible that this change could result in fewer ships going boom rather than more
Understand I do not object to ending the practice of Neutral RR in principal. I just want assurances that CCP is actually cognizant of and have worked out the ramifications of this change in situations that do not involve neutral RR asshattery.
Saying stupid **** like "don't engage unless you are willing to commit" is all fine and dandy but understand that the practical effect of that will be fewer FCs willing to engage at all save under perfectly optimal conditions which will result in fewer fights and more blue balls.
There there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms |
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
409
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Posted - 2012.03.23 13:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote: There there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms
Would probably be less thread time for this new system. It's more linear, we're not talking about that many conditionals compared to the pile of noodles we have now. Surely null sec can be taken into account easily.
if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jump else jump
done. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
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Posted - 2012.03.23 13:23:00 -
[42] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:There there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms That would be pretty hilarious if you imagine the server going though a list of 20 logis, each of whom has 20 logis and 20 normal ships aggression. Because to check logi 1 it would have to check logis 2-20, and 20 combat ships.
And to check logi 2, well it has to check logis 1, 2-20, and 20 combat ships.
Depending on how fast it goes, we hope it won't have to recalculate for logi 1 before it finishes calculating for logi 20. Does it update every second? Because (especially in TiDi) I imagine there wouldn't be too much problem checking 800-20 (39*20) timers before having to recheck.
If the server goes too fast it might trip over itself when updating (tries to update logi1 before it has gotten to logi 20). Which might cause desync, but I don't know if anyone would notice a desync of aggression timers even on a nullsec gate. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc
138
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Posted - 2012.03.23 14:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:[quote=Skex Relbore There there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms[/quote
Would probably be less thread time for this new system. It's more linear, we're not talking about that many conditionals compared to the pile of noodles we have now. Surely null sec can be taken into account easily
if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jum else jum
done.
You are ignoring the process of determining the value for your timer variable. Which is a far more complex process
It would have to see if any in ship in your rep chain has a timer then compare the values of those timers to see which is highest then apply that then check again and again and again doing this simultaneously on all the logi.
The current check is easy timer is reset to 60 seconds every time a hostile act occurs and it's always 60 seconds, with the proposed system it would be what ever the longest timer in your rep chain is.
The first "virus" to ever crash a network was the result of the unintended effect of a similar mechanic.
http://virus.wikia.com/wiki/Christmas_tre
The creator of the virus wasn't trying to create a virus they just wanted to create a simple email Christmas card that would be sent to their friends. Then they had this brilliant idea to have it forward that message to all their friends' friends. The problem the creator didn't consider was that in addition to the all the recipients other contacts was generally a contact for the sender themselves. So the email was sent out pulled out the contact info and would forward to everyone on the list including the sender then all the recipient computers would go through the same process again sending not just to additional contacts but to the person who sent it to them creating this endless loop that brought the network to it's knees.
The intentions were good (send a Christmas greeting to their friends and spread joy onwards), the results were bad (killing the entire network) not through malice but from simply overlooking one simple variable
It's also the sort of effect that could easily go through testing and not show up because singularity doesn't have the population and conditions to test it properly. It's possible the mechanic could behave perfectly fine on smaller scale engagements but strangle the node on a really large scale fight
This is what worries me with the proposed RR changes, that something simple like that is wasn't considered. That the focus on the problem from the perspective of ending neutral RR will preclude consideration of the mechanic from other legitimate perspectives
As much as I'd like to believe that CCP has thought through all these factors, history just doesn't justify that level of faith.
(hell they can't even implement a forum save feature that doesn't screw up quotes)
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Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
430
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 14:44:00 -
[44] - Quote
I support this change. Neutral repping in HS is mainly used as a tactic by griefers. Glad to see this coming. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc
138
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Posted - 2012.03.23 14:49:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:I support this change. Neutral repping in HS is mainly used as a tactic by griefers. Glad to see this coming.
Reading comprehension, you fail at it.
This post isn't about Neutral repping it's about potential knock on effects the change would have on targeted boosting in situations where neutral RR isn't an issue (Mostly low and null sec) |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
87
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Posted - 2012.03.23 14:49:00 -
[46] - Quote
So let me get this right.
I fly logi and I want to take part in combat by repping someone. But I DON'T want to be the target of the agression because, god forgive it, I might lose my ship?
Like said over and over for years.
Don't fly what you aren't willing to lose.
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Del DelVechio
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.03.23 14:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ignore Skexs' tears. Best thing ever....
Del |
Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises
342
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 14:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:
dictor 25-50 mil logi 170-200mil
Dictor drive by Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer
So basically the logi costs more and therefore should have different rules to make it easier to fly?
The logi isnt stuck on grid. He can warp away just like the dictor can. He can even cloak just like the dictor can. The only difference is that if you launch a warp bubble you cant immediately dock or jump the gate. You CAN repair and then immediatly dock/jump. That is wrong. "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP |
Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc
138
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 15:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:So let me get this right
I fly logi and I want to take part in combat by repping someone But I DON'T want to be the target of the agression because, god forgive it, I might lose my ship
Like said over and over for years
Don't fly what you aren't willing to lose
No you aren't getting it right. probably because you don't have enough experience with what you are talking about.
Go look at my killboard and see just how afraid I am of losing a ship. I've had twice the number ships shot out from under me than you've managed to kill in double the time I've been playing this game. So don't talk to me about risk aversion
I haven't said anything about being a target or not being a target. RR is always a priority target because they are a serious force multiplier. At issue is what kind of side affect changes implemented to address the problem of Neutral RR in hi-sec will have on RR everywhere else in the game.
RR is used differently in null sec than it is in high, Particularly in SOV null where station games aren't really an issue (if you aren't blue you can't dock so no station games)
When I fly logi I'm not repping some nano-twit popping newbie wardec targets on the Jita undock I'm typically in a 100+ man fleet desperately trying to get targets locked and reps on them prior to their going pop. I'm cycling reps on up to 5 people at a time and having to move on to someone else as soon as they're out of danger, meanwhile I'm not getting on any killmails or getting any documented credit for my contributions.
Large scale SOV warfare isn't the same as high sec warfare, a strategic retreat is and should be a legitimate tactic. You don't throw away a perfectly good fleet because you find yourself outmatched as an FC you keep your guys together and extricate yourself from the battle so you can have those resources available for another fight you have a chance of winning.
Replacing assets in Null isn't a matter of just hopping over to Jita and buying new **** , you either have to make it yourself (collectively) or someone has to haul that crap down from hi-sec.
You are often deployed far from any place you can go buy new ships because you are in hostile SOV space where docking up and buying a new ship simply isn't an option. So it's only natural to husband your resources more carefully. (welpfleets not withstanding)
Like Liang said (amazing how we can be going at each others throats in the inflation thread while in accord here) ban and biomass neutral reppers in high as far as I'm concerned. Their existence/non existence doesn't affect me one way or the other. I was able to work around them fine when I lived in high and they are no longer a concern since I've went to null.
What I'm concerned about is how these changes are going to affect legitimate use of logistics and other targeted boosting as well as what kinds of effects coding it could have on server performance.
I'm fine with CCP making changes to eliminate neutral RR, I just want to be sure CCP is taking care that their fix doesn't break my part of the game.
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Gary Bell
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
12
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Posted - 2012.03.23 15:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
There is alot of stupid in this thread...
You can still engage on gates...
When logi reps they take the timer of the aggressor not a new timer. Basically if you fired and a bigger fleet jumped you everyone deagress and wait out timer to jump. Logi will only have the timer of the last aggressor. You do not recieve a fresh timer for each rep, you take on the timer at the very same time as the last person to aggress. All this will do is make sure logi are last to leave field. All logis will be able to jump at the same time as the last person to agress. Now if you have some idiot who leaves out drones it could get hairy.
The only difference you will see is no more fights on gates where logi can bounce back and forth threw the gate when they take to much dps, which will deff make a change to small gang pvp on gates (Home Def fleets etc)
Please read the tread B4 you say stupid things...
+1 For a good change which will give a lil life to high sec when
P.s Will be good fun to watch high sec station humpers try to have a ton of logi repping, and smart guy with alt corp full of arty fit nados who come in and insta pop eveything.. |
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March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
144
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Posted - 2012.03.23 15:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote: btw a couple big differences.
dictor 25-50 mil logi 170-200mil
Dictor drive by Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer
price doesn't matter as we learnt from supercap nerfs..... |
Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc
138
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 15:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:Skex Relbore wrote:
dictor 25-50 mil logi 170-200mil
Dictor drive by Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer
So basically the logi costs more and therefore should have different rules to make it easier to fly? The logi isnt stuck on grid. He can warp away just like the dictor can. He can even cloak just like the dictor can. The only difference is that if you launch a warp bubble you cant immediately dock or jump the gate. You CAN repair and then immediatly dock/jump. That is wrong.
Yes cost matters. Dictors are generally viewed as disposable ships. They also are used in a drive by manner, warp in drop bubble, burn and warp out while Logi is sitting there on grid trying desperately to get reps on friendlies before they pop. A bubble is also an aggressive act while repping is a defensive. Also logi has to do their work on the hostile side of a gate while a Dictor trying to delay a force can easily jump through drop bubble then warp off. Logi's don't typically fit cloaks it's a wasted slot and the targeting delay pretty much destroys their ability to do their job effectively.
Basically the two activities are so dissimilar that comparing them is pointless.
A logi that's covering a retreating fleet has to sit on the outbound gate until their fleet is able to jump through, also if they are repping in that situation they have no control over whether or not one of the morons in their rep chain did something stupid to reset their timers (all it takes one idiot forgetting to recall a drone or accidentally shooting the gate to leave your entire logi force stuck.
Frankly it's hard enough to find people to fly logi under the existing circumstances, no killmails no indication of participation while risking expensive skill intensive ships. add suicidal to that list and good luck convincing people to fly them.
Oh and honestly I don't see why dictors shouldn't be able to jump after dropping a bubble either it's not like they're particularly hard ships to kill.
I swear some of you people think your entitled to a kill simply by logging in. Battles that revolve strictly on who has the most dps buffer will be boring. Force multipliers like Logi and ewar make things interesting and allow for a wider range of strategies and tactics. They provide a means for a smaller well organized force to counter larger blobs with sufficient skill. But you'd reduce it to the point where the only determining factor of a battle would be who could bring the most DPS to bear and that would be dull.
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Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
87
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Posted - 2012.03.23 16:21:00 -
[53] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote: No you aren't getting it right. probably because you don't have enough experience with what you are talking about.
Yes, you are absolutely right. All my PvP experience is listed on battleclinic or some other killboard because that is what everyone e-peens on. And yes, your vast experience in PvP offers no out of the box thinking to solve the issues.
Your circle of reasoning is set within certain limits you and a vast majority of EVE maneuvred themselves in. As soon as someone does some out of the box thinking and comes with a nice idea in regards how to counter certain things you are eagerly adapting to the same stramien and the folley of your tears here will be nothing more than a mere shimmer in the distance.
EVE has always been a game of adaption. Those who manage to adapt are the ones on top of the foodchain for a short period of time. Those who fail to adapt wander off into the faint memories of those who cry about the good old times in a few years.
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Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
14
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Posted - 2012.03.23 16:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
ITT: I can't have my cake and eat it too.
So you want to be able to continue to rip fleets off on a null sec gate with RR, but in high sec on a station it's some big deal that logi can just poof?
Hypocrites.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
409
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 16:41:00 -
[55] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jump else jump
You are ignoring the process of determining the value for your timer variable. Which is a far more complex process
Yep, I ignore it, that pseudo snippet doesn't care about the timer if you are in null sec. Read it carefully.
If you want to now change your argument, we can do that, but don't try and pretend that you aren't. |
Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc
138
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 16:43:00 -
[56] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Skex Relbore wrote: btw a couple big differences
dictor 25-50 mi logi 170-200mi
Dictor drive by Logi stuck on grid for duration of time
price doesn't matter as we learnt from supercap nerfs.....
No what the supercap nerfs show us is that price should not be an I win button that can only be countered with more of the same. Logi isn't an I win button it can and is regularly countered by a number of additional means including alpha, ewar and simply overwhelming force
To be clear the point of this thread isn't about defending neutral RR. I'm just trying to ensure that the potential side effects are addressed.
The propagation of shared aggression timers is one of those things that sounds great at first brush but I see some pretty serious potential problems with it and have some questions that should at least be considered in the discussion.
For instance what happens when the pilot who's aggression was propagated dies? is the logi's timer still there or does it go away with their target. If it stays that makes it a harder decision on whether to risk being stranded on a gate with hostiles and no way to fight back is worth trying to save the friendly ship.
It makes it much more difficult to determine when to jump, you could easily end up in a situation where you are chain repping to cover a retreat then the pilot with the longest remaining timer dies and that timer is still applied to your logi. in the mean time the combat ships in your fleet who have full control over whether they have a timer or not clear their timers and jump out leaving the logi stranded with no support of their own.
These decisions will have effects on the general risk calculations in all sorts of PVP scenarios, people are generally less likely to engage if they don't see a chance for victory or at least survival. The ability to dock up immediately while repping results in more RR ships (particularly carriers) engaging actions that would not be considered otherwise, that can and often do result in destruction of the ships in question. (The CFC killed more than a couple WN. carriers that thought they'd hop out and RR before re-docking only to get alpha'd by the maelblobs)
This is the point I keep trying to get people to understand in discussions of mechanic changes that will supposedly improve the "risk vs reward" of an action. People stay focused on theoretical risks that people will never engage in (like taking an officer fit faction BS into low should L4s be moved there exclusively) while ignoring the positive effects risk mitigation has on the matter (With L4s in high sec you can suicide gank the officer fit faction BS's that people actually use because of the lower perceived risk)
Is it really an improvement if removal of the ability for Logi to dock up instantly causes people to be less willing to engage on stations and gates at all? (they are the two main places there PVP takes place after all) How many fights happen because a logi pilot is willing to undock to support a fight against poor odds because they know that if things go badly they have a chance of docking up. (note the use of the word "chance", mistakes happen, people screw up and logi's still manage to die on stations and gates as things stand now)
In the end I'll work around what ever changes end up going through just like I've worked around or through every other change CCP has implemented that I thought was ill conceived
Hell it's possible (however unlikely) that CCP has actually giving my concerns great thought and that my worries have already been addressed.
But I really think that people are so caught up on the "Neutral RR BAD!!!" thing that they aren't looking at the big picture of the situation outside of those circumstances mainly due to ignorance of how RR is used in other places even the Null guys pipping in don't seem to be experienced logi pilots
Consider Del's comment. Del is a good friend and I generally respect his opinion but his experience with RR is extremely limited. R-V-B doesn't generally use RR and so most of their experience with the mechanic comes from dealing with fail deccing Neutral RRing ganktards who run at the first sign of anything that could put up a fight and tend to roll with 3-1 neutral RR to combat ship ratios. The existence of the RR mechanic doesn't really affect their game play in anyway but negative so it's no real surprise he'd be cheering this on.
If I were confident that this change would only affect Neutral RR in high sec I'd have no objections whatsoever. But I'm not confident of this, not given CCP's history or the lack of a wider perspective most of the people discussing the issue have shown.
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Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises
350
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Posted - 2012.03.23 16:49:00 -
[57] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:Skex Relbore wrote:
dictor 25-50 mil logi 170-200mil
Dictor drive by Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer
So basically the logi costs more and therefore should have different rules to make it easier to fly? The logi isnt stuck on grid. He can warp away just like the dictor can. He can even cloak just like the dictor can. The only difference is that if you launch a warp bubble you cant immediately dock or jump the gate. You CAN repair and then immediatly dock/jump. That is wrong. Yes cost matters.
No. Cost doesnt matter. Logi's arnt THAT expensive anyways. They might be more then a rifter or dictor but they arnt significantly more expensive to require their own set of rules.
The real reason people are scared of this change is they wont be able to undock their carriers for reps without losing it to PL drops.
Your logistics ships should absolutely not be able to dock or jump gates after providing assistance. They should inherit the jump/dock timers from the people they repair. As stated, logistics/ecm are 'force multipliers' aka they massively increase your fleet's abilities. Currently they do that for free with no risk. Thats stupid.
Quote:Is it really an improvement if removal of the ability for Logi to dock up instantly causes people to be less willing to engage on stations and gates at all? YES. Currently, logistics teams can endlessly repair you and take absolutely no risks doing it. They can keep one person alive forever and never risk their own ships. Thats stupid.
Also, logistics are abused as 'scouts'. When an FC isnt sure about the other side of the gate, he sends in the logi's because they can just repair eachother and jump back through the gate. Thats stupid. "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP |
Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc
138
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 16:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Skex Relbore wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jump else jump
You are ignoring the process of determining the value for your timer variable. Which is a far more complex process Yep, I ignore it because that psuedo snippet doesn't care about the timer if you are in null sec. Read it carefully. If you want to now change your argument, we can do that, but don't try and pretend that you aren't.
I stand corrected, my apologies.
Further if the change were actually implemented like this, so that it's effects were limited to empire I would happily support the change, though I'd prefer this change to the condition.
if system sec status <5 and timer >0, no jump else jump
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Gnaw LF
6
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Posted - 2012.03.23 16:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:TBH this is one of the few good pvp-related changes that were announced.
Its kinda silly to have a shitton of neutral alts in scimitars repping you, and then just docking up when you shoot the scimitars I'm not talking about neutral alts in Scimitars repping someone. I'm talking about fleet members in no holds barred null battles repping allies to cover disengagement on a gate without having to commit suicide in a 200mil isk ship to save a 40 mil isk Drake. I'm talking about not screwing over people who are using RR in a legitimate manner. If those changes only apply to high sec then I don't really give a ****, but as far as I know aggression mechanics are global regardless of security status of the system in question.
If you don't want to commit 200mil to save a 40 mil ship then don't rep the 40mil ships. However, Logi is a massive force multiplier and should not be a "free" force multiplier. If it commits to combat/repping it should have the same aggression as any other ship and should not gate jump or dock.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
409
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Posted - 2012.03.23 17:12:00 -
[60] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote: I stand corrected, my apologies.
Further if the change were actually implemented like this, so that it's effects were limited to empire I would happily support the change, though I'd prefer this change to the condition.
if system sec status <5 and timer >0, no jump else jump
No problem, such things happen online. And I do understand your concerns as well. These things can be overomce in a straight forward way, that's all I hoped to illustrate. |
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