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Two questions about Caldari recons (falcon especially).

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Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.08.21 08:41:00 - [1] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 21/08/2008 08:41:01 1. Can anyone tell me why people think they're overpowered when they have a bonus to only one type of e-warfare, where every non-Caldari recon has a bonus to two? 2. Shouldn't that justify the effectiveness of ECM, since it's all Caldari recons have?
Scathain Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.21 08:45:00 - [2] The other types of e-war have been nerfed into the ground, and ecm is very strong. The people complain that they dont have the best, so they want everyone else to suffer instead of offering suggestions to boost the other e-war.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.08.21 08:50:00 - [3] The argument that other e-war ships are nerfed is ridiculous. An Arazu warp scramming from 90km kicks serious arse. So does a Rapier webbing from that distance. In fact, I've seen Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar recons perform solo extremely well in losec and 0.0. What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously, Falcon whiners are useless morons.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Arthur Frayn The argument that other e-war ships are nerfed is ridiculous. An Arazu warp scramming from 90km kicks serious arse. So does a Rapier webbing from that distance. In fact, I've seen Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar recons perform solo extremely well in losec and 0.0. What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously, Falcon whiners are useless morons. Rapier/huginn speed tanks damage as does the curse... Falcon/Rook avoids damage by stopping targets locking them... Pilgrim plate tanks and hopes it can shut down its targets damage before it dies... Arazu/lachesis warp scrams then dies... 2 of these are underpowered, 1 I would say it about right, and 5 are a long way overpowered imo. After nano nerf things will look a lot different, I imagine more like: Rapier/huginn web then die... Curse - something... Pilgrim - uses an afterburner to get close and then TD's its targets (obviously it will only engage turret boats since it picks what it fights)... Falcon/Rook avoids damage by stopping targets locking them... Arazu/lachesis warp scrams then dies... And no, stopping mwd'ing ships at 18km is not really much of a bonus since most ships will deal enough damage at lol 18km to slay a poor arazu or lachesis. So yea, amarr and caldari recons are headed for the bin along with all EW because nobody likes sitting there dying and not being able to fight back...
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:09:00 - [5] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 21/08/2008 09:10:20 Originally by: Wil Smithx So yea, amarr and caldari recons are headed for the bin along with all EW because nobody likes sitting there dying and not being able to fight back... Here's a hint: don't fly only close-range ships with no ewar support of your own. If people weren't so obsessed with getting OMG 99999999999999999999999999999999 DAMAGE!!!!!!! in EFT, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 21/08/2008 09:10:20 Originally by: Wil Smithx So yea, amarr and caldari recons are headed for the bin along with all EW because nobody likes sitting there dying and not being able to fight back... Here's a hint: don't fly only close-range ships with no ewar support of your own. If people weren't so obsessed with getting OMG 99999999999999999999999999999999 DAMAGE!!!!!!! in EFT, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Where in that post did I mention close range ships fool?
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:35:00 - [7] This has been said before, and i respond the same again. What if we give caldari recons a 5% bonus to range of target painters instead of their ECM strength bonus. Then they have a bonus for 2 different EWAR types, so they obviously should be better than they are now according to your logic. Well if you are happy with it, and i dont think anyone who wants falcon nerfed would have objections to it, then everyone is happy.
Tolsimir Wolfblood Angeli Iustitiorum	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:36:00 - [8] Edited by: Tolsimir Wolfblood on 21/08/2008 09:40:54 People really need to stop crying about the Falcon/Rook. People cried about the Arazu and its counter part that dampening was way to strong and look what went wrong there. People cried about the nanos and now they are getting nerfed. Jamming is all based on chance and a little math. There are ways to get around them. Hint #1. There is the ECCM. Fit them on your ship and its less likely to get jammed. " But I dont wanna b/c then I cant tackel in my BS" Hint #2. Fleets have to have a tacklers such as interceptors. Thats what they were made for. Hint #3. Fit what ever sensor backup you need not to get jammed. "But i dont wanna b/c then my mega wont be able to do 1200 dps" or " I dont wanna b/c then I wont be able to uber tank my BS" No one is ever going to be happy if this game is taken seriously. So go ahead CCP nerf away and pretty soon no one is going to play.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:37:00 - [9] Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. You counter ECM with ECCM, which isnt usefull when you arent jammed. And no other recon ship can operate effectively at the range of a falcon.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:59:00 - [10] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. You counter ECM with ECCM, which isnt usefull when you arent jammed. And no other recon ship can operate effectively at the range of a falcon. As a side note to this really, you need 3 tracking comps to counter 1 TD, so your fairly screwed on that part, also ECM is the only one that isn't stacking nerfed, if it got weaker the more you had on you it would be ok tbh What I also wanted to say is the EW ships need to be able to tank in some other way than relying on their EW, if they could tank as well as providing support for the gang, it wouldnt matter if their EW wasn't as powerful since they wouldn't just die in seconds as soon as anything locked them. Also the arazu is fairly null and void considering heavy interdictors can scram at 30km with no chance of escape AND tank AND deal damage!
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.21 10:02:00 - [11] Quote: You dont counter target painters but who cares. You should care, and they're countered by tracking disruptors.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.21 11:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. You counter ECM with ECCM, which isnt usefull when you arent jammed. And no other recon ship can operate effectively at the range of a falcon. That's a reasonable point, which is why I support getting rid of the module and making ECCM a sensor booster script.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.21 11:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 21/08/2008 08:41:01 1. Can anyone tell me why people think they're overpowered when they have a bonus to only one type of e-warfare, where every non-Caldari recon has a bonus to two? 2. Shouldn't that justify the effectiveness of ECM, since it's all Caldari recons have? 3. All the other recons can actually do some damage. It's barely worth fitting weapons on a falcon.
Ravn Silverclaw Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:14:00 - [14] Edited by: Ravn Silverclaw on 21/08/2008 12:14:13 The majority of whiners are now busy whining about nanos. Once they have ruined that aspect of the game like they've done for the other ewar already, I'm sure they will be right on the Falcon/Rook issue as soon as qualified whiners are available. Thank you for calling the Blizz...ehr...CCP hotline.
OnlyFlysFalcons	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:17:00 - [15] Some numbers (stolen from Pattern and Marn at SHC). First Number Set Assuming you have a falcon with 2, T2 racial jammers, max skills, 2 Signal Distortion amps and 2 Particle Dispersion Augmentors VS None ECCM Hurricane = 98% chance of jamming every cycle Sleipnir = 98% Tempest = 92% Dominix = 86% Rapier = 81% Falcon = 74 % Chimera = 31% VS 1x ECCM II Sleipnir = 68% Tempest = 60% Dominix = 54% Rapier = 50% Falcon = 44% Chimera = 17% For anything smaller than a battlecruiser, it's pretty much 80% chance of jamming with ECCM And considering that this is with only 2 racials, from one falcon, you can see why I think it's particularly imbalanced. Second Number Set Falcon with 3 sig amps and a single Amarr jammer (14.1) vs a Abaddon (22): No ECCM = 64% 1 ECCM = 33% 2 ECCM = 17.9% 2 Jammers: No ECCM = 87% 1 ECCM = 55% 2 ECCM = 32% So when you consider that with 2 jammers vs 1 ECCM means you will be jammed 55% of the time you also have to add on the retargetting time so you could quite easily be out of it for two thirds of a fight. So taking the theory a bit further say the Falcon has 6 racial jammers, vs 3 ships which each have a ECCM you would expect 2 of the 3 to be jammed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anyone arguing that caldari only has 'one type of ewar' or falcons 'don't do any dmg' and thus are balanced are deliberately obscuring the issue. These things are stupidly imbalanced and need to be hit, hard, by the nerf bat.
Fager Caldari Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:32:00 - [16] Originally by: OnlyFlysFalcons Some numbers (stolen from Pattern and Marn at SHC). First Number Set Assuming you have a falcon with 2, T2 racial jammers, max skills, 2 Signal Distortion amps and 2 Particle Dispersion Augmentors VS None ECCM Hurricane = 98% chance of jamming every cycle Sleipnir = 98% Tempest = 92% Dominix = 86% Rapier = 81% Falcon = 74 % Chimera = 31% VS 1x ECCM II Sleipnir = 68% Tempest = 60% Dominix = 54% Rapier = 50% Falcon = 44% Chimera = 17% For anything smaller than a battlecruiser, it's pretty much 80% chance of jamming with ECCM And considering that this is with only 2 racials, from one falcon, you can see why I think it's particularly imbalanced. Second Number Set Falcon with 3 sig amps and a single Amarr jammer (14.1) vs a Abaddon (22): No ECCM = 64% 1 ECCM = 33% 2 ECCM = 17.9% 2 Jammers: No ECCM = 87% 1 ECCM = 55% 2 ECCM = 32% So when you consider that with 2 jammers vs 1 ECCM means you will be jammed 55% of the time you also have to add on the retargetting time so you could quite easily be out of it for two thirds of a fight. So taking the theory a bit further say the Falcon has 6 racial jammers, vs 3 ships which each have a ECCM you would expect 2 of the 3 to be jammed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anyone arguing that caldari only has 'one type of ewar' or falcons 'don't do any dmg' and thus are balanced are deliberately obscuring the issue. These things are stupidly imbalanced and need to be hit, hard, by the nerf bat. You do realize that Racial jammers only jam that good on the Race they are intended for? Cut their use in 1/4 and well talk Give numbers on Multispectrals (include range on multis so ppl can see that 200kms is just lol). Racials is a great advantage if you know what your up against(exactely) Becouse if you cant JAM that one ship that can hurt you, your dead in seaconds or warp off if possible. It be safe to say a Nerf consisting of removing Racials would not make many ECM-Pilots shit their pants really. Then again i agree on Falcons being OP due to the single fact that they perform as a Rook with Cov Op Cloak.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:33:00 - [17] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 12:35:52 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. You counter ECM with ECCM, which isnt usefull when you arent jammed. And no other recon ship can operate effectively at the range of a falcon. That's a reasonable point, which is why I support getting rid of the module and making ECCM a sensor booster script. This is actually a quite solid idea. Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood Hint #1. There is the ECCM. Fit them on your ship and its less likely to get jammed. " But I dont wanna b/c then I cant tackel in my BS" (a) ECCM is not effective enough if you fit just one (read: getting jammed on every second attempt still puts you out of the fight thanks to BS lock time). (b) Fitting more then one ECCM really kills your setup, you're way better off bringing Falcons to counter Falcons rather then gimping your entire gang (which will then completely die to another BS gang). Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood Hint #2. Fleets have to have a tacklers such as interceptors. Thats what they were made for. If battleships cannot tackle, do you really expect me to use sentry-tanked interceptors to tackle? Hint: It cannot be done. So I'm stuck with having some tackle on battleships. I'll generally menage to squeeze 1 ECCM in by removing a part of the tackle capability, but that leads us to the point above - a battleship with one ECCM gets effectively put out of the fight thanks to lock time anyway. Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood Hint #3. Fit what ever sensor backup you need not to get jammed. "But i dont wanna b/c then my mega wont be able to do 1200 dps" or " I dont wanna b/c then I wont be able to uber tank my BS" Well. Yes, I can totally gimp my fleet if I choose to (this means I'll die to their battleships anyway), but I'm way better using Falcons to counter Falcons (or if the gang is large enough to waste 1 BS, completely sniper-fit BS) rather then setting up a gang which loses to a gang of equal size because it's horribly gimped. Furthermore, using Falcons is rather viable for a low-sec pirate because they can work outside sentry ranges, unlike most of their counters which fare horribly under sentry guns.
Fager Caldari Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:49:00 - [18] Edited by: *er on 21/08/2008 12:50:04 Edited by: *er on 21/08/2008 12:49:19 Originally by: Cpt Branko At any rate, the whole covops cloak thingy definitely makes the Falcon a bit on the overpowered side. Did you notice whining about the Rook? No, it's annoying (and quite effective), but you can scout for it and either bring counters or avoid fighting (or try to get a favourable warp-in on it or w/e). Falcons, you can't, and they don't have any significant downsides compared to a Rook either. Thats where the real problem lies in Falcons, Having that range AND the Covop Cloak is over the top. However ECCM is effective, more so against multispectrals. Please pull out the numbers with Multispectrals instead of Racials. Racials is powerful couse they only work on 1/4th of all ships. Increased range and power for 1/4th payoff is not imbalanced imo.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:54:00 - [19] Originally by: **er Edited by: **er on 21/08/2008 12:50:04 Edited by: *er on 21/08/2008 12:49:19 Originally by: Cpt Branko At any rate, the whole covops cloak thingy definitely makes the Falcon a bit on the overpowered side. Did you notice whining about the Rook? No, it's annoying (and quite effective), but you can scout for it and either bring counters or avoid fighting (or try to get a favourable warp-in on it or w/e). Falcons, you can't, and they don't have any significant downsides compared to a Rook either. Thats where the real problem lies in Falcons, Having that range AND the Covop Cloak is over the top. However ECCM is effective, more so against multispectrals. Please pull out the numbers with Multispectrals instead of Racials. Racials is powerful couse they only work on 1/4th of all ships. Increased range and power for 1/4th payoff is not imbalanced imo. A single racial is about as effective as 2 multispectrals, only idiots fly with a full rack of mutli tbfo. Though considering its caldari and they do have a rather large % of utter muppets, I wouldn't put it past being common. Oh and if you hadn't worked it out your very likely to meet a mixed gang with different raced ships so chances are with your large number of med slots with racial jammers you can jam most of a gang fairly effectivly.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:30:00 - [20] If you assume that everyone you fight against will have a Falcon in their gang, then an ECCM is a useful module - because you always need it. In my experience the past few months, there has always been a Falcon, Blackbird, Scorpion, or some other Caldari ECM ship present in the opposing gang/fleet, so I think my first assumption is valid.
Cheenie	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Arthur Frayn An Arazu warp scramming from 90km kicks serious arse. So does a Rapier webbing from that distance. Lol yeah, cus every Recon pilot has all level 5 skills, with faction mods and a maxed Claymore in gang. Falcon / Rook perform very well alone with basic skills, they can 100% jam multiple enemy HACs.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:44:00 - [22] People will cry about anything that is different from regular tank and spank. Unfortunately CCP seems to listen so its not a question of if the falcon will get nerfed but when. Once nanos are nerfed to the ground you will see a lot more ecm whines followed by a heavy nerf.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:49:00 - [23] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 13:50:08 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 13:49:22 Originally by: Esmenet Once nanos are nerfed to the ground you will see a lot more ecm whines followed by a heavy nerf. Well, nerfing nanos boosts Falcons (as it nerfs one of the counters). It will take essentially double the time to reach one. Plus, it nerfs its counterparts (which are all essentially nano-fit), making it even better in comparison.
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:57:00 - [24] If you want to nerf Falcons and 'balance' it with other Recons, then prepare to compromise and at least think about bring its damage potential up. Nice dronebay or something. Then we'll talk. Waah waah. If people are getting ****d by Falcons that bad, then something's not being done right. Less killmail whoring, more taking one for the team. Hint hint.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Odre Echee If you want to nerf Falcons and 'balance' it with other Recons, then prepare to compromise and at least think about bring its damage potential up. Nice dronebay or something. Sure, 100% supported.
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Cpt Branko Sure, 100% supported. I think we need a bit more people, eh? I also hope you people do realize this : there are people with maxed out ECM skill, like me, and nerfs really wouldn't hit us that hard, and we still are likely to jam your sorry asses anyway? Repeat ad infinitu... Until it becomes paperweight?
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:05:00 - [27] Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 14:06:24 When falcon uses its drones it will be in drone control range and it will cant cloak. So the enemy will send all their drones on the falcon forcing it at least to warp out, and maybe an interceptor can jam/bump it long enough to prevent it from warping out. Sure have fun with your drone bay. btw odre, want to bet? If CCP does a nice swing with nerfbat your skills wont help you, it also didnt help the sensor damp users.
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 14:06:24 When falcon uses its drones it will be in drone control range and it will cant cloak. So the enemy will send all their drones on the falcon forcing it at least to warp out, and maybe an interceptor can jam/bump it long enough to prevent it from warping out. Sure have fun with your drone bay. btw odre, want to bet? If CCP does a nice swing with nerfbat your skills wont help you, it also didnt help the sensor damp users. This presumes Falcon going solo (which may happen if Falcon gets nice attacky-attacky). It also may depend on drone aggro., as well as FoF missiles. You win some, you lose some. I don't care. I accept it, and there are people who needs to do the same. If Falcon gets spanked bad with nerfbat that bad, then it enters the 'paperweight' scenario I have mentioned. Nerf'd to the point where no amount of skills will redeem it. In which case, general population will be happy, and we'll all live happily ever after. Right?
Cactus Mack	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:36:00 - [29] The Falcon only needs minor changes. Reduce per recon level jam strength from 20% to 15% and remove a single low slot. This would balance it with its cloaking ability and bring the Rook back to the game.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:08:00 - [30] What makes ECM the ewar of choice these days, IMO, is the range bonuses. If you could get your damper or tracking disruptor's optimal out to a 200km optimal, they'd probably be superior fleet ewar and the arazu would become the falcon's bane. Currently, ECM is powerful, but ECM boats can't really do anything except ECM, so it's reasonable that they're effective at that one thing. If a falcon couldn't lock down things fairly reliably, they'd just be food for anything with a gun.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:20:00 - [31] Originally by: Wil Smithx Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 21/08/2008 09:10:20 Originally by: Wil Smithx So yea, amarr and caldari recons are headed for the bin along with all EW because nobody likes sitting there dying and not being able to fight back... Here's a hint: don't fly only close-range ships with no ewar support of your own. If people weren't so obsessed with getting OMG 99999999999999999999999999999999 DAMAGE!!!!!!! in EFT, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Where in that post did I mention close range ships fool? When you complained that you can't kill Falcons. Long range ships will easily deal with Falcons. Originally by: Wil Smithx What I also wanted to say is the EW ships need to be able to tank in some other way than relying on their EW, if they could tank as well as providing support for the gang, it wouldnt matter if their EW wasn't as powerful since they wouldn't just die in seconds as soon as anything locked them. Absolutely not. Tank is worthless in PvP, and any ship that gives up offensive power for more tank is a worthless ship that will never undock. Quote: Also the arazu is fairly null and void considering heavy interdictors can scram at 30km with no chance of escape AND tank AND deal damage! 48km scram > 30km scram. And the Arazu can bring some ewar as well as that point, while the HIC can only scramble things.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:23:00 - [32] Originally by: Cpt Branko At any rate, the whole covops cloak thingy definitely makes the Falcon a bit on the overpowered side. Did you notice whining about the Rook? No, it's annoying (and quite effective), but you can scout for it and either bring counters or avoid fighting (or try to get a favourable warp-in on it or w/e). Falcons, you can't, and they don't have any significant downsides compared to a Rook either. Nobody uses the Rook for the exact same reasons that nobody uses the Huginn or Lachesis, and nobody would use the Curse if the Pilgrim didn't suck so much. If you're going to demand a nerf for the Falcon, you'd better also be demanding nerfs to the Rapier and Arazu.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:25:00 - [33] Originally by: Arthur Frayn What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously, Falcon whiners are useless morons. This , whiners never flown a falcon themselves , and died because their fit/pvp skills are crap. They would have died if the enemy falcon pilot would have flown anything else anyway.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:45:00 - [34] Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 21/08/2008 19:47:02 The argument that "A falcon can only do one thing so it should be able to do it well" Is a joke. Your right, the falcon does only do one thing and because of that it should be able to do it well. The problem is it doesn't do it well, it does it beyond great. 1 falcon, can disable up to 4 ships from 200k away. Thats what this argument really comes down to. Second argument that is a total joke is "But jammers are chance based!!!" Yeah, and just like vegas the odds are all on the house. Yeah, its chance based but the chances (even WITH ECCM) are still on the falcons side. Give the chance based thing a rest. Optimal of ECM's need to be brought into line with other e-war. ECM optimal should be a bit longer because jamming is the only thing a falcon does. Example. Damp optimal with decent skills and rigs = 80k. Will never totally disable a ship and to even hurt one semi bad takes 3 damps. ECM optimal with good skills and rigs = 163k. Can disbale a ship with a single mod. Overall strength of jammers needs to be reduced to a point where they really ARE chance based. As likely to hit as they are not. OR make ECCM a sensor booster script that doubles sensor strength. Either way it accomplishes the same thing. I agree that if you don't fit for e-war protection you deserve to get jammed but as it stands ECCM's should be their own mods that are good for something else.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.08.21 20:20:00 - [35] Reduce jamming strength, lock range, and make it so racial jammers only jam that racial ship. Falcon becomes balanced. Range is brought in with the rest of the ships, ECCM is given a chance, and multispecs may become more common since you can never 100% guarantee what type of ship you'll run into (few racials). - FRIGANK
Cactus Mack	Posted - 2008.08.21 20:58:00 - [36] Edited by: Cactus Mack on 21/08/2008 21:00:25 Originally by: Ignatious Mei 1 falcon, can disable up to 4 ships from 200k away. Broad sweeping statements FTL. What ships? How fitted? Jammed for how long? 4 Minmatar T1 frigs with no ECCM. Yeah, probably. Quote: Second argument that is a total joke is "But jammers are chance based!!!" Yeah, and just like vegas the odds are all on the house. Yeah, its chance based but the chances (even WITH ECCM) are still on the falcons side. Max skilled Falcon pilot, using the best fitting mods and racial jammers attempting to jam a Hurricane fitted with 1 best named ECCM has roughly a 47% chance to jam it per cycle. Seems the odds are in the Hurricane's favour. Also consider Minmatar have the weakest sensors of all races and you see other races fare even better. Quote: Optimal of ECM's need to be brought into line with other e-war. Optimal could be considered a touch long, but all other race's e-war work 100% within optimal, and do not need to be "race matched" for full optimal or strength. Quote: Damp optimal with decent skills and rigs = 55k. Will never totally disable a ship Huh? Depending on the script, it will be 100% effective at optimal. If it damps that ship to a targeting range that your gang is working outside of, that ship is effectively disabled. To be fair, the damp recons probably deserve a buff to their e-war. Quote: ECM optimal with good skills and rigs = 163k. Can disable a ship with a single mod. Can disable is a long way from will disable. Again, what ships are we talking about and how are they fitted? Do people complaining about Falcons every actually run the numbers, or better yet, fly them? Quote: Overall strength of jammers needs to be reduced to a point where they really ARE chance based. All that should possibly be done is drop the Falcon back to 15% jam strength bonus per recon level instead of 20%. I said else where that one could even consider dropping a low slot. This would give people a reason to fly the Rook. Then the anti-ecm crowd would have two ships to complain about.
fairimear Gallente S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.08.21 21:59:00 - [37] I've recently given in to training a falcon alt. i am highly against any form of ecm where a player can prevent another player fighting back at all which is what ecm does by removing your ability to lock on. The reasons it's over powered on a falcon are simple. 1. it works from over 200km out. 2. it can in the effectively jam 3 targets. in comparison sensor dampeners are about half as effective on a arazu at preventing a target from locking. also in comparison no other recon works at 250km without a 7bill ish officer out fitting. the main problem that gets the falcon so much attention is that it makes the now favored by ccp group combat very very unbalanced. 2 bs with a falcon can kill 5 bs without 1. And altho it makes no difference to the outcome falcons also lead to situations where 1 person is getting ganked by say 7 and they cant even try to kill the cruiser before going down becuase they just cant lock on.. so these are the reasons every 1 hates the falcon and its the reason i hate the falcon. but its also the reason i now have 1 to. Makeing your npc hunters SS.
OnlyFlysFalcons	Posted - 2008.08.21 22:34:00 - [38] Quote: Max skilled Falcon pilot, using the best fitting mods and racial jammers attempting to jam a Hurricane fitted with 1 best named ECCM has roughly a 47% chance to jam it per cycle. Seems the odds are in the Hurricane's favour. Also consider Minmatar have the weakest sensors of all races and you see other races fare even better. SIGN ME UP BABY!. I'm fitting an ECCM and I only get jammed by 47% of the time by ONE racial jammer?!! Good thing the falcon only has one mid slot!
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.21 22:53:00 - [39] If you cannot see how ECM chould possibly be overpowered in its current form then no amount of argument will make you think different. You will also fail to suggest any possble changes that will make everyone happy, you just persist that ecm is NOT broken, and that everyone should just adapt. This is why i don't touch the ecm threads. Honestly think this sort of attitude will lead to a knee jerk nerf of everything ecm. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.21 22:55:00 - [40] Its a support ship. Gawd forbid it performs its roll as a support ship. After the speed nerf do you really need another form of F1-F8 combat?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.21 22:58:00 - [41] Originally by: fairimear in comparison sensor dampeners are about half as effective on a arazu at preventing a target from locking. Yes, and guess what: the Arazu can also scramble the target while damping it. In solo/small gang fights (where Gallente are meant to be used) this is actually better than a Falcon, since you cover both the tackle and ewar roles with one ship. Quote: 2 bs with a falcon can kill 5 bs without 1. Well, congratulations on stating the obvious: a balanced fleet that includes ewar support is better than pure battleships. How is this a problem? Quote: And altho it makes no difference to the outcome falcons also lead to situations where 1 person is getting ganked by say 7 and they cant even try to kill the cruiser before going down becuase they just cant lock on.. Cry more please. If you're getting ganked 7v1 you're dead, Falcon or no Falcon. There's no need to cripple the Falcon just so you can satisfy your ego by getting something to 95% shields before you die. Originally by: Dristra You will also fail to suggest any possble changes that will make everyone happy, you just persist that ecm is NOT broken, and that everyone should just adapt. Why SHOULD everyone be happy? Why should we (or CCP) give in to the whiners who troll these threads with wildly exaggerated claims of what a Falcon can actually do?
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.08.21 23:16:00 - [42] Once the falcon is nerfed, the Rook will become the hot topic. while your falcon pilot warps off in a pod, baffled at why his FC Borat can't learn to not pyramid-quote.
Cactus Mack	Posted - 2008.08.22 00:29:00 - [43] Originally by: OnlyFlysFalcons SIGN ME UP BABY!. I'm fitting an ECCM and I only get jammed by 47% of the time by ONE racial jammer?!! Good thing the falcon only has one mid slot! So your wtfbbq Hurricane isn't 100% gaurenteed to burn the paper Falcon during the first 20 seconds of combat. Boo Hoo. Ok, here we go. What if we nerf the Falcon so that at max skills it only has a 20% chance to jam you and has to be within 80km, BUT we let the Falcon target and operate ECM while cloaked? Nahh.. The anti-ECM babies would still cry because anything that trumps simplistic, easy mode gank/tank is "unfair" and should be nerfed. Just stay the course and follow in the footsteps of NOS, damps, and speed (next), and everyone will be happy.
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance	Posted - 2008.08.22 02:23:00 - [44] Originally by: Cactus Mack Originally by: OnlyFlysFalcons SIGN ME UP BABY!. I'm fitting an ECCM and I only get jammed by 47% of the time by ONE racial jammer?!! Good thing the falcon only has one mid slot! So your wtfbbq Hurricane isn't 100% gaurenteed to burn the paper Falcon during the first 20 seconds of combat. Boo Hoo. Ok, here we go. What if we nerf the Falcon so that at max skills it only has a 20% chance to jam you and has to be within 80km, BUT we let the Falcon target and operate ECM while cloaked? Nahh.. The anti-ECM babies would still cry because anything that trumps simplistic, easy mode gank/tank is "unfair" and should be nerfed. Just stay the course and follow in the footsteps of NOS, damps, and speed (next), and everyone will be happy. Yeah, calling people with the opposing view babies is a real valid argument. Just lol, you want to use your e-war while cloaked And simplistic is your view that any nerf to the falcon would destroy the ship. My Rapier, Huginn, pilgirm, curse and arazu all have to fly where they can be targeted and hit. And they don't survive it because they do such great damage. But all this is probably something you've never experienced. The only reason your falcon might ever get killed is getting unluckily decloaked in a bubble after jumping through a gate, or in a fleet fight where the lag was so bad you couldn't cloak or warp when something started to get in range of locking you. So, what's your argument that a rapier, arazu, and curse should be able to ew mess up one or two ships at 35-40km, but the falcon should be able to mess up 3 or 4 ships at 200km (because let's be honest who's gonna fit their spare mediums with 100km multiple tracking disruptors that don't work against missiles or drones, crap bonused damps that require 3 to be effective, and painters?)? This boils down to give up range or give up the ability to take out so many ships with your one ship otherwise everyone will have a falcon alt (i'm working on two) and you won't have to worry about gank and tank noone will be able to shoot. without a rebalance to recons, all the damn falcons will make battles last forever because noone will ever shoot anyone due to being continually jammed. I've seen fleets of sniper battleships with 7-10 falcons, and guess what they destroy the opposition unless there are falcons on the other side. If that's not overpowered what is? Be willing to step your rediculous ecm spewing machine into the 40km hot kitchen and risk losing it and then tell me who's the cry baby. Btw, all the falcon pilots i know readily admit that the thing is overpowered and very rarely lose them. They don't come onto the forums and regurgitate stupid arguments. They know it will eventually be nerfed and just wait to see what might be the extent. I have stated i would not want the ship to be destroyed like the arazu and pilgirm have been (and like the rapier/huginn might with the proposed web nerf). Hopefully CCP might get it right with minor changes to stats.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 02:50:00 - [45] Originally by: fairimear 2 bs with a falcon can kill 5 bs without 1. This is an utterly simplistic world view. On average the falcon can REALLY be counted on removing 3 battelships worth of firepower from a fight when using 6 jammers. That, in short is what the Falcon does - crowd control. In your scenario 2 battleships and 1 falcon may indeed win the battle, but it's far from a guarnteed match. Firepower generation would be, more or less equal, thus whichever sides loses a BS first will probably lose the battle. If those 5 battleships fit ECCM (or even 3 of them) the battle would be in THEIR favor. But what I find funny is there is apparently a problem because 3 V 5 can be a win for the outnumbered side. Apparently the fact that 3 BS probably cannot beat 5 BS is a justification for nerfing the falcon. I've said it before and here it is again: if the Falcon cannot remove at least TWO ships from a fight you have ZERO reason to fly it. If you want an easy answer to the problem, fit ECCM. Too difficult? Lobby for ECCM to be a sensor booster script. If you can't justify fittin a SB on your ship you DESERVE every jam cycle you recieve. If that doesn't work, boost ECCM. If that doesn't work, hack of 5% of the falcons jam strength. If that doesn't work, hack of 5% of it's lock range (on a per level basis - thus instead of 100% bonus to jammer strength a falcon would get 75% at level 5). What you will note is, even with these changes the falcon would still jam perfectly well against targets too silly to use the countermeasure module. And I'm wholly convinced most of the anti-falcon crowd won't be satisifed until a single module completely protects you from ECM.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.22 03:01:00 - [46] Originally by: Cactus Mack Max skilled Falcon pilot, using the best fitting mods and racial jammers attempting to jam a Hurricane fitted with 1 best named ECCM has roughly a 47% chance to jam it per cycle. Seems the odds are in the Hurricane's favour. What you don't get is that 47% is a lot. If you got jammed on every second cycle, you'd spend ten seconds shooting something before you're jammed again. That's a huge reduction in its damage dealing (and tackle, and w/e) ability. And that's talking about only one jammer. If you can jam a ECCM-ed BS 50% of the time, you're putting him out of the fight for two thirds up to three quarters of a fight, given relock times and so on when flying a BS, and you can easily do that with two jammers. And he sacrificed a slot to counter you (else you'd easily permajam with one jammer). That is quite a lot, and we're talking ECCM-ed battleships. They do the job of jamming small stuff much better. So, please, understand the implications of a 50% jam rate. It's a lot. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 03:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Cactus Mack Max skilled Falcon pilot, using the best fitting mods and racial jammers attempting to jam a Hurricane fitted with 1 best named ECCM has roughly a 47% chance to jam it per cycle. Seems the odds are in the Hurricane's favour. What you don't get is that 47% is a lot. If you got jammed on every second cycle, you'd spend ten seconds shooting something before you're jammed again. That's a huge reduction in its damage dealing (and tackle, and w/e) ability. And that's talking about only one jammer. If you can jam a ECCM-ed BS 50% of the time, you're putting him out of the fight for two thirds up to three quarters of a fight, given relock times and so on when flying a BS, and you can easily do that with two jammers. And he sacrificed a slot to counter you (else you'd easily permajam with one jammer). That is quite a lot, and we're talking ECCM-ed battleships. They do the job of jamming small stuff much better. So, please, understand the implications of a 50% jam rate. It's a lot. With battleships the basic numbers to consider are: ~60% chance to jam without ECCM ~30% Chance to jam with ECCM That doesn't really mean much - the battleship needs at LEAST two jam cycles free to do much good in a fight. ~16% chance without ECCM ~50% chance with ECCM The numbers are loosly representative of what I would consider an average falcon pilot against an Apoc, which has a fairly low sensor strength. Numbers favor Caldari the most, Minmitar the least - Amarr is right in the middle with gallente. ECCM nearly triples your odds of doing something useful in a fight where you are being hit with a single jammer. I'm all for making ECCM a more attractive module, I'm even in favor of boosting it's effectiveness in general (and on small ships). I am not in favor of giving people a free pass from ECM just because it's inconvient and irritating. Making a sacrifice to counter something ought to be more than marginally effective yes, not having to make any effort and getting the same result is what happened to damps and look at what we have there?
Cactus Mack	Posted - 2008.08.22 03:57:00 - [48] Originally by: Lili Lu Just lol, you want to use your e-war while cloaked And simplistic is your view that any nerf to the falcon would destroy the ship. Ability to recognize sarcasm 0. So, what are the magic numbers anyway? What range and jam strength would keep everybody happy? There is no answer because people hate being jammed. And even if it happens once, costing them a ship, they will *** that ECM is overpowered. Quote: The only reason your falcon might ever get killed is getting unluckily decloaked in a bubble after jumping through a gate, or in a fleet fight where the lag was so bad you couldn't cloak or warp when something started to get in range of locking you. Or.. wait for it.. How about an intelligent gang composed of ships ready to handle the possibility of a Falcon being in the opposing gang? Would that be a possibility? Quote: let's be honest who's gonna fit their spare mediums with 100km multiple tracking disruptors that don't work against missiles or drones, crap bonused damps that require 3 to be effective, and painters?)? Hey, if you're not filling your mids with the e-war your ship was designed for, that's not my fault. A Falcon pilot pretty much only puts jammers in his mids, though a sensor booster is a possibility. Quote: I've seen fleets of sniper battleships with 7-10 falcons, and guess what they destroy the opposition unless there are falcons on the other side. If that's not overpowered what is? Isn't that a bit like saying a fleet of ships with guns killed a fleet that didn't bring any? Ewar is part of the game. People need to think about that when composing their fleets. Quote: Be willing to step your rediculous ecm spewing machine into the 40km hot kitchen and risk losing it and then tell me who's the cry baby. Sure. Just give me the benefits that the other e-war ships have. No need for racial mods, better DPS, 100% effectiveness within optimal. Quote:** Btw, all the falcon pilots i know readily admit that the thing is overpowered and very rarely lose them. They don't lose them because people find it easier to complain about them and hope for a nerf, than to actually deal with them on the battlefield. There is a decent list of counters to a Falcon, and not just "fit ECCM". Look, I'm not 100% against a Falcon adjustment, if only to make the Rook viable again. I've stated more than once that it's optimal could be slightly reduced and the per recon level jam strength brought down to 15%, or maybe even reduce the jam cycle to 15 seconds. I also have nothing against seeing the Gallente and Amarr recons buffed to make up for how hard they got hit by the damp and nos nerf patches. What I tire of are the "bandwagon posters" (not saying you are one) that throw out simplistic views, inaccurate figures, and hearsay. Many of these people are the same ones that whine about anything they can't handle because it involves thinking outside of tank and DPS. I have no doubt the Falcon will be nerfed, and I'm sure CCP will take use their standard ham-handed approach, adding yet another ship to the graveyard of the once useful.
Cactus Mack	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:12:00 - [49] Originally by: Cpt Branko What you don't get is that 47% is a lot. If you got jammed on every second cycle But you don't get a jam every cycle. Try it. You have a 53% chance of not being jammed each cycle. Also don't forget we're talking Minmatar here, the race with the weakest sensors. Quote: If you can jam a ECCM-ed BS 50% of the time I believe the Hurricane is a BC, not a BS. Quote: So, please, understand the implications of a 50% jam rate. It's a lot. Until one flies a Falcon and encounter an unknown, racially mixed gang, I don't think people realize just how many cycles a Falcon misses. Just because there is a Falcon in your gang does not mean it's going to "perma-jam" 3-5 ships in any enemy gang. There are so many variables that it's pointless to continually throw out hypothetical scenarios for people to argue. In the end, it is very likely that Falcon and/or ECM will be nerfed (again).
Celesphira Archangels Assault Force Legion of Honor	Posted - 2008.08.22 06:00:00 - [50] I think the main reason why everyone (including me) hates ECM isn't the chances (while in some cases absurdly high) or range of the modules, or anything of the sort. It's the fact that ECM mission-kills a ship, for twenty seconds, often longer than some ships can be expected to survive in combat. Every other EWAR, you can do something about, even if you don't have a counter fitted. Neut? Cut power to non/less-essential mods. Load lower-power ammo. Tracking Disruptor? Maneuver to minimize transversal. Get closer if necessary. Sensor damp? Wait, or move closer. Target Painter? Doesn't really interfere with what you can do, except survive in some cases, but all EWAR does that. ECM mission-kills your ship, one instant you're doing fine, the next you can do nothing. You can no longer effect the battle. Your best tactic is twiddle your thumbs and pray the next cycle misses, but that may not work. While any of the above suggestions for other EWAR types are dicey at best, anyone can attempt to use a shift in strategy to compensate for enemy EWAR, but you can't use reflexes or thinking on the field to deal with ECM once it's employed. Given the stacking penalties, even with a million sensor damps, I can still close to blaster range and engage. Even with a million tracking disruptors, I can still control my drones. Even with a million neuts, I can still launch missiles, and control drones. ECM removes any glimmer of hope you had agaisnt impossible odds, which makes people not want to commit to the battle in the first place. Dying gloriously is fun, dying without any effect on your own destiny is not.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.22 06:45:00 - [51] As far as I can make out people just don't like effective ewar.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.08.22 07:30:00 - [52] Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 22/08/2008 07:32:54 The density of Falcon/Rook/BB advocates makes me want to punch them squarely in the face. If CCP wants guerrilla tactics, then nerf the out of ecm. If I see an enemy blob, I might get a couple friends and do clever ganks. If I see an enemy blob with any ECM, I won't bother wasting my time and isk because you are always going to get jammed. With or without ECCM. WTB ECCM module that will effectively counter jamming WHILE still being useful for something if no jammer is present. Let me know when you find one. Let CCP know too so they can implement it Seriously, get a **ing clue. If there was one ship class that was fire and forget, it's the ecm ship. Go ahead and tell me about how you have to jam the right targets etc etc, but when it all comes down to it, it's jam the ship that is the biggest threat to you and then you gang. - FRIGANK**
Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.08.22 07:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Arthur Frayn 1. Can anyone tell me why people think they're overpowered when they have a bonus to only one type of e-warfare, where every non-Caldari recon has a bonus to two? 2. Shouldn't that justify the effectiveness of ECM, since it's all Caldari recons have? No. There is no point in having even 500 bonus and no one good. Give 1 O-N-E good bonus to every ship and fullstop. BTW actually the only one who deserves a fix is the gallente one to be honest, other races work effectivly, 1 falcon can shut down a whole gang (yes it can, i've seen this too many times in game) pilgrim can disable almost any tank and huginn/rapier can take it stucked like a mosquito into amber.
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.08.22 08:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal on 22/08/2008 07:32:54 The density of Falcon/Rook/BB advocates makes me want to punch them squarely in the face. If CCP wants guerrilla tactics, then nerf the out of ecm. If I see an enemy blob, I might get a couple friends and do clever ganks. If I see an enemy blob with any ECM, I won't bother wasting my time and isk because you are always going to get jammed. With or without ECCM. WTB ECCM module that will effectively counter jamming WHILE still being useful for something if no jammer is present. Let me know when you find one. Let CCP know too so they can implement it Seriously, get a ****ing clue. If there was one ship class that was fire and forget, it's the ecm ship. Go ahead and tell me about how you have to jam the right targets etc etc, but when it all comes down to it, it's jam the ship that is the biggest threat to you and then you gang. Wait, huh, you want a uberpwner? That aside. Your fault for not prepping against them properly? Bloody hell, you'll be complaining about Rooks or Blackbirds next. ------------------- Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon is recruiting! Take no substitute when it comes to alt-corp
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.08.22 08:22:00 - [55] Originally by: Celesphira Every other EWAR, you can do something about, even if you don't have a counter fitted. It is not true. Quote: Neut? Cut power to non/less-essential mods. Load lower-power ammo. So basically deactivate your tank? If you are being neuted by an amarr recon and you don't have the counter module (cap boosters) you won't have anergy for ANYTHING. And if you are from one of the two races that need cap to fire you are toast. Quote: Tracking Disruptor? Maneuver to minimize transversal. Get closer if necessary. There is no counter for tracking disruptors. If you are in a turret ship you are screwed. You can do whatever you wish and even USING the counters will avail you nothing. You need 3 tracking computers to compensate a single disruptor and if he uses 2 on you, bad luck, because due to stacking penalties no matter how many tracking modules you have you will hit nothing. Quote: Sensor damp? Wait, or move closer. Yes, sensor dampeners are horribly underpowered. But when they are boosted, and I hope they are, the result will be again an effective EWAR tool. Meaning if you are in a recon, no ship will be able to totally negate your EWAR. The best it can do is to mitigate it, as it should be. Quote: Target Painter? Doesn't really interfere with what you can do, except survive in some cases, but all EWAR does that. But a web does. And there is absolutely no counter to it as well. From ALL EW ECM is the MOST counterable. Ok, dampeners are broken, but by design they are either useless as they are now or as uncounterable as the other race's EWAR. Personally I prefer the later, but oh well, lets see what happens... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.22 08:32:00 - [56] It is fun to see ppl compaining they shoudl fit eccm up ,but they dont want go give up their sensor booster with resolution scripts :) Oh next time they will complain they have to fit up buffer+ resist modules against dmg ships.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.22 09:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Merin Ryskin When you complained that you can't kill Falcons. Long range ships will easily deal with Falcons. How, range makes no difference to ECM, unless your fighting a rokh at like 200km (I have no idea why you might be doing this unless your in a fleet fight [in which case it wouldnt matter cos the other 90 enemy ships will have you as primary already]) and most ships are fitted for medium range combat, the fact you can scramble with full effect from like 6 times the average effective range of a gang ship. And before you say it, cruise ravens and sniper rokhs are about as bad as gang ships come... Originally by: Merin Ryskin Absolutely not. Tank is worthless in PvP, and any ship that gives up offensive power for more tank is a worthless ship that will never undock. I think you will find that your a tiny bit wrong there... If a ship doesn't fit some kind of tank, it dies horribly fool and the problem with the ecm boats is they have to be able to achieve permajams or they get minced in seconds, which was the same for the arazu, but that didn't stop CCP murdering that! Originally by: Merin Ryskin 48km scram > 30km scram. And the Arazu can bring some ewar as well as that point, while the HIC can only scramble things. LOL, the arazu can bring some ewar?! When did you last play eve?! Your thoughts on the matter are null and void because you obviously have nothing in your head to think with tbh...
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.22 09:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Cactus Mack Lots of poor arguments from somebody who seems to know nothing about ECM You fail at life!
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.08.22 10:03:00 - [59] Edited by: Delichon on 22/08/2008 10:09:33 deleted My Falcon with Recon 5 rocks :) ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.22 10:10:00 - [60] Edited by: Wil Smithx on 22/08/2008 10:12:03 Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. . How do you counter double-web? How do you counter 40km neuts? Please tell me. Web is getting nerfed so we can leave that out of the discussion unless its being used an an example of something overpowered. 40km neuts and neuts in general are a little too crippling imo. Edit: Mwuhaha, Delichon, I quoted you before you could edit!
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.08.22 11:05:00 - [61] Originally by: Wil Smithx Web is getting nerfed so we can leave that out of the discussion unless its being used an an example of something overpowered. 40km neuts and neuts in general are a little too crippling imo. Edit: Mwuhaha, Delichon, I quoted you before you could edit! Yeah, your nano-qouting skills are overpowered, nerf you :( Actually, as a Falcon-pilot I would note that no one ever asked for the Falcon boost. It was ok before it's jamming stregth was raised from 15% to 20% per level. Scorp required a boost, BB was generally ok but didn't get overboosted either, Rook got a deserved boost (high to low IIRC) - but Falcon was ok with 15% of jamming stregth per level. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.22 11:23:00 - [62] Fit an mwd against a web. No it does not completely compensate for it, but it does something. I dont think anyone is asking here for complete ecm invunerability when you fit one eccm mod. 40 km neut? Cap injector. It will at least be enough to keep your hardeners running and your guns most of the time. And against both those webs and neuts you can use your drones against them. Without gimping your setup you can attack their ship. Meanwhile a falcon is another 100km furhter away from you way outside drone control range. At least make ECCM have a role when you arent jammed. All other counters to ewar help you even when that ewar isnt used on you. ECCM is completely pointless then. And all other ewars cant do it from 150km distance easily.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.22 11:34:00 - [63] Originally by: Delichon Actually, as a Falcon-pilot I would note that no one ever asked for the Falcon boost. It was ok before it's jamming stregth was raised from 15% to 20% per level. Didn't the Falcon have a 10%/level bonus before the boost?
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.08.22 12:09:00 - [64] Edited by: Delichon on 22/08/2008 12:14:13 Originally by: Gypsio III Didn't the Falcon have a 10%/level bonus before the boost? Can't recall. Probably (I DO recall that nobody flew them back then - Rook was so much superior). Than it DID require a small boost. Originally by: Furb Killer ... stuff... Cap booster is not a counter to a competent Curse-pilot. And what about the ships, that require cap. booster BEFORE being subject to cap warfare? MWD argument is lol. Double webs reduce your speed by 100 times. That's right 100 times. There is NO difference between doing 1 m/s and 10 m/s. Additionally - what is advantage of a sensor booster with range script on a ship, that has optimal equal to it's targeting range? Well it counters damps - but that is it. Extra 40 km of lock range are useless when not dampened. But I have retracted my comment before you answered it - and here is why. Electronic warfare is different (just so if you haven't noticed) Some help you, some work against your enemy. Saying "My Arazu should remove 2-3 ships from the combat over 200km" is silly role-playing BS. No, it shouldn't. Damps should have it's own role in the gang. Or more like - there should be different gangs revolving around using Arazu. Damping from 150 km would be overpowered in a fleet fight - because you need 1 damper to completely remove a fleet-BS from the fight. Falcon can't do that - 150km damping Arazu will be able to do that with 100% reliance. Now think about roaming gangs moving from MWD-ing HACs to AB-ing AFs. Arazu (but mostly Keres) would be getting a boost, because their EW would be more useful to the gang than ECM. Why? Because AFs have a small signature - and gimping the signature resolution of the target (regardless of the target ship's race mind you) would make the whole gang of 30m sig-ed ships almost invulnerable. A small boost to effectiveness to the specialized damping ships - and you have new subject of whines on all the forums. Same goes with neuts and TD's - although they are fine as they are (it's only the Piligrim that needs a boost) As for webs and TPs - I honestly think that people will look at TP's differently after they would realize that 1 bonused TP provides an unstackable effect of a tracking computer with tracking script FOR ALL THE SHIPS SHOOTING THE TARGET! You Blaster Mega can't track shi...p - don't whine, get a Rapier pilot in gang. Double web + TP and everyone is hitting the enemy guy just fine. Electronic warfare of all races is different. So it should be - unless we want to have 8 Falcons with different models. Different EW means you have to make different gangs around this EW if you are to take the advantage of it. EW is not DPS - it never goes "The more the merrier". Even ECM - Falcons are in a sense much more "stackable" than damage dealers (and to an extent - rapiers) You learn that when you fly in gangs with more than 1 ECM ship in gang. EW should be different and EW should make people use different gang-designs. P.S. SPELLING FFS :((( ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.22 13:26:00 - [65] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 21/08/2008 08:41:01 1. Can anyone tell me why people think they're overpowered when they have a bonus to only one type of e-warfare, where every non-Caldari recon has a bonus to two? 2. Shouldn't that justify the effectiveness of ECM, since it's all Caldari recons have? 1) Because people don't view overpoweredness as having 'jack of all trades' abilities. They view it by what ships win fights and are unusually effective at things. If caracal had a bonus "instakills X targets per level" you'd think that was overpowered even if that was the only bonus it had. 2) Would you consider a trade for target painter effectiveness an appropriate offset for reduced range on the Falcon? If not, why not?
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.22 14:10:00 - [66] You realise a sensor booster can also be on targetting speed which is always usefull? Even in just a 1v1 it gives you a bit more damage since you can start shooting earlier.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.22 14:41:00 - [67] Originally by: Furb Killer You realise a sensor booster can also be on targetting speed which is always usefull? Even in just a 1v1 it gives you a bit more damage since you can start shooting earlier. Screw damage a sensor booster is the difference between a kill and a missed nano *** (because they all run away unless they know they can win) at a gate
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.22 15:43:00 - [68] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Dristra You will also fail to suggest any possble changes that will make everyone happy, you just persist that ecm is NOT broken, and that everyone should just adapt. Why SHOULD everyone be happy? Why should we (or CCP) give in to the whiners who troll these threads with wildly exaggerated claims of what a Falcon can actually do? Try to look away from the trolls for a bit, i agree with you on this point. My point is ecm's effect in itself might need to be questioned, a module that can totaly shut down another ship is potentionaly game-breaking, such an effect is almost impossible to balance: If you make it to weak (it rarely kicks inn and at random) ecm ships will plainly suck If you make it to strong (it's sure to work) you will see a storm of whines If you arrogantly claim ecm is fine all the time, and others disagree, you will soon find yourself in a nerfed ship(maybe even close to useless), my suggestion is to propose a fix that will quiet the (trolls,whiners,noobs call them what you want) yet still keep the ship you have trained for viable. This is not to unreasonable now is it? And who do you think ccp will listen too: random trolls screaming for a nerf, or suggestions on how to resolve a problem? Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.22 17:20:00 - [69] Well ccp wants to revamp the forums , if they would just delete it there would be no more whines :) No need for forums.
fairimear Gallente S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.08.22 19:36:00 - [70] Edited by: fairimear on 22/08/2008 19:36:33 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: fairimear in comparison sensor dampeners are about half as effective on a arazu at preventing a target from locking. Yes, and guess what: the Arazu can also scramble the target while damping it. In solo/small gang fights (where Gallente are meant to be used) this is actually better than a Falcon, since you cover both the tackle and ewar roles with one ship. Quote: 2 bs with a falcon can kill 5 bs without 1. Well, congratulations on stating the obvious: a balanced fleet that includes ewar support is better than pure battleships. How is this a problem? Quote: And altho it makes no difference to the outcome falcons also lead to situations where 1 person is getting ganked by say 7 and they cant even try to kill the cruiser before going down becuase they just cant lock on.. Cry more please. If you're getting ganked 7v1 you're dead, Falcon or no Falcon. There's no need to cripple the Falcon just so you can satisfy your ego by getting something to 95% shields before you die. Originally by: Dristra You will also fail to suggest any possble changes that will make everyone happy, you just persist that ecm is NOT broken, and that everyone should just adapt. Why SHOULD everyone be happy? Why should we (or CCP) give in to the whiners who troll these threads with wildly exaggerated claims of what a Falcon can actually do? falcon can fit a web and scram and still ecm 2 ships from any range it fudgin likes. Its a problem because it means repetitive pvp and as it stands a total idiot can make a huge difference in pvp. It removes pilot ability from the mix and also means that in most cases out numbered forces are now dead. If you had any intellect you would relies that a person who loses a ship and still enjoys it plays and adds more to eve than people who feel like they are getting ganked and achieving nothing. And your final point is totally circler reasoning (that means your point works as well against you as for you, in case your to stupid) why should you be able to gank without the pilots shooting back at you? are you afraid? your whining about people complaining about the falcon as much as they are whiners to. IDIOT. Makeing your npc hunters SS.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.22 19:41:00 - [71] Quote: And your final point is totally circler reasoning (that means your point works as well against you as for you, in case your to stupid) why should you be able to gank without the pilots shooting back at you? are you afraid? your whining about people complaining about the falcon as much as they are whiners to. IDIOT. You should really learn how to write before writing and calling someone an idiot. I don't like to be a grammar **, but if you're going to flame someone for being a ****, you should probably try not sounding like one yourself. At least I personally found it a bit funny.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.08.22 19:58:00 - [72] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 22/08/2008 20:00:39 Originally by: Furb Killer Fit an mwd against a web. No it does not completely compensate for it, but it does something. I dont think anyone is asking here for complete ecm invunerability when you fit one eccm mod. Even after the nerf, IF it happens, tripple web means 90% of speed reduction. A MWD in these circumstances will only make you die faster, because you will have a huge signature radius and will STILL be slow. As it is NOW it is a joke, you have about 98% of speed reduction. MWD does a LOT less for Webs than ECCM does against ECM. Quote: 40 km neut? Cap injector. It will at least be enough to keep your hardeners running and your guns most of the time. This is at least a viable counter, but again a much less effective one than ECCM is agains ECM. Quote: And against both those webs and neuts you can use your drones against them. Without gimping your setup you can attack their ship. Meanwhile a falcon is another 100km furhter away from you way outside drone control range. That IF your ship has drones and IF he does not kill your drones or overrun them while freely orbiting around you while you are locked. More often than not your drones can't do a thing against a minnie or amarr recon. The former will just outrun the meds and heavy ones and kill the small. The later will use their own drones to kill yours. And you will be hopeless locked in the meantime. And we are forgeting again Tracking Disruptors, whose counters are remarkly inefective. Quote: At least make ECCM have a role when you arent jammed. All other counters to ewar help you even when that ewar isnt used on you. ECCM is completely pointless then. And all other ewars cant do it from 150km distance easily. ECCM does have a role when you are not jammed. You are more difficult to scan. Given, that is not an excellent role, but then again to prepare for a curse you would need to put a cap booster on every ship and not every ship benefits from one in the absence fo a curse. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
GateScout	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:43:00 - [73] Originally by: fairimear The reasons it's over powered on a falcon are simple. 1. it works from over 200km out. 2. it can in the effectively jam 3 targets. Yet it cannot do both at the same time. ....unless you have an interesting definition of "effectively." 200km out you need a sensor booster for targeting....subtract 1 jammer. If you're fitting a MWD, you have 5 jammers....4 races of ships... Hmmm. You do the math. ..and don't forget: at any range a sniping BS can pop it...or, at the least, make it leave the leave the field. ...add in Nanos...and it takes, what?... 20 seconds for a nano ship to travel 200km? Dead falcon...or he has left the grid. As far as I'm concerned, if your gang allows a falcon to remain in the fight for more than 20 seconds, your gang either has the wrong components or you need to adjust your tactics. If you want to fly all short ranged BS, HACs, whatever....then start fitting ECCM... What's the term all those nano pilots use? Oh yeah: "Adapt or Die...."

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