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Dinsdale Pirannha
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:28:00 -
[1]
I know the standard answer should be " it is ship dependent", but the more time I spend EFT warrioring (is that even a word?), the more it looks like the vast majority of ships benefit from shield tanking over armour tanking.
That above statement comes with a big caveat: It assumes excellent skills and a massive wallet. Caldari Invulnerability Shields are costing 330 mill apiece.
I don't want to go into details about each and every ship, but I have put Shield Extender II's and Shield Relay II's on many traditionally armour based ships, and the shield based version seems to be better.
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whisk
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:29:00 -
[2]
you can have an exelent shieldtank if you are willing to spend few billions
armor tankt cant compete
Adapt or Die
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:31:00 -
[3]
It depends entirely on the circumstances.
If you're going for a crazy expensive deadspace fitted PvE setup then yes, shield tanking is better.
Typically in PvP armor tanking wins out though.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:39:00 -
[4]
Shield-tanked ships with SPRs are F-A-I-L. They do no damage.
Since pure tanking is worthless even in PvE (and utterly worthless in PvP), well, don't do it.
Secondly, shield-tanks vs armour tanks for PvP have one important distinction: armour tanks make a decision between tank and gank (while generally having tackle/etc easily).
Shield tanks make the decision between tank and tackle (while generally having gank easily, since damage modules go in the lowslots).
This makes armour tanks generally more solo-capable for PvP.
Furthermore, armour tank ships which rely on buffer generally do better then shield tank ships which rely on buffer (exceptions being Caldari resist-bonused ships or some T2 ships).
Armour tankers relying on buffer can get the best effective HP if they are willing to sink in big amounts of ISK thanks to slave-sets (while shield-tanks can get the best active tanks, see crystals).
For remote-rep gangs, armour tank ships are far more popular due to the relative prevalance of armour tankers (most BS in game are armour tanked, and you want to all tank the same thing), better EHP of armour tanks (which is very important in such gangs), more free midslots in armour tanks, and shield transfers being preety damn hard to fit.
Use this mindset when fitting for PvP: count on your ship recieving more damage then it can handle, always. See what happens with different fits at 500 and 1000 DPS recieved. Then at 2000. Then at 3000. Then, look at the damage you do. Damage is important. Price is important too, because losing it is a matter of time. Also, look at your midslots: can you fit a ECCM? Can you fit tackle? Can you fit a MWD (neccesary for many things).
For missions: anything goes, nobody cares about missions anyway.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Spectre3353
Gallente The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cpt Branko For missions: anything goes, nobody cares about missions anyway.
Agreeeeeeeeed! ----- My Pirate Blog: http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
My Ransom Board: http://www.pcransomboard.com/ |
Ralara
Caldari Vivicide
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Posted - 2008.08.22 21:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Shield-tanked ships with SPRs are F-A-I-L. They do no damage.
Since pure tanking is worthless even in PvE (and utterly worthless in PvP), well, don't do it.
Secondly, shield-tanks vs armour tanks for PvP have one important distinction: armour tanks make a decision between tank and gank (while generally having tackle/etc easily).
Shield tanks make the decision between tank and tackle (while generally having gank easily, since damage modules go in the lowslots).
This makes armour tanks generally more solo-capable for PvP.
Furthermore, armour tank ships which rely on buffer generally do better then shield tank ships which rely on buffer (exceptions being Caldari resist-bonused ships or some T2 ships).
Armour tankers relying on buffer can get the best effective HP if they are willing to sink in big amounts of ISK thanks to slave-sets (while shield-tanks can get the best active tanks, see crystals).
For remote-rep gangs, armour tank ships are far more popular due to the relative prevalance of armour tankers (most BS in game are armour tanked, and you want to all tank the same thing), better EHP of armour tanks (which is very important in such gangs), more free midslots in armour tanks, and shield transfers being preety damn hard to fit.
Use this mindset when fitting for PvP: count on your ship recieving more damage then it can handle, always. See what happens with different fits at 500 and 1000 DPS recieved. Then at 2000. Then at 3000. Then, look at the damage you do. Damage is important. Price is important too, because losing it is a matter of time. Also, look at your midslots: can you fit a ECCM? Can you fit tackle? Can you fit a MWD (neccesary for many things).
For missions: anything goes, nobody cares about missions anyway.
This. --
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o0TuNa0o
Idle Miners
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Posted - 2008.08.23 00:00:00 -
[7]
Simply
- Shield tanks can tank harder. But.. to field a great shield tank, you forgoe the abilty to fit tackle or have great dps.
Shield tanked ships, like the Drake or the cerb come into their own in gangs. They can absorb the damage (especially good on gates), leaving the armour tanked ships to deal the DPS.
Case in point. A purger Drake can take BS damage, whilst my cerb, with a cheap domi SB, can tank any CS I've come across.
At the end of the day, it's easier to train tank than gank. Training tanking skills takes 1-2m SP's, where guns take around 4-6m before you can gank and make that much of a difference.
- Its strange hearing everyone talk about gank fits, when instinct tells you to fit tank. It's all down to skills at the end of the day.
TuNa
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.23 00:40:00 -
[8]
Slot for slot shield tankers are better. Biggest tank in the game is a shield tank.
But there's a reason most people armour tank for PvP, so I'd say it was fairly balanced. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Ash Bringer
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Posted - 2008.08.23 02:16:00 -
[9]
shield tanks are good for PvE and only if passive. If active they are good at bursts as cap/hp healed ratio is too high u can't keep tank up so long.. Also cap giving mods mostly nerf shield boost or takes a shield tank slot (cap booster)
So uber passive shield tanks take everywhere in your ship, meds,lows and even rigs.
Armor tank is cap efficient. Leaves you place to tackle. And buffer tank even not regenerating is more than enough for most of the PvP ships.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 02:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: o0TuNa0o
- Shield tanks can tank harder. But.. to field a great shield tank, you forgoe the abilty to fit tackle or have great dps.
This is patently untrue. Shield tanks do great DPS, as nearly all of them are fitting three damage mods.
Originally by: o0TuNa0o
Shield tanked ships, like the Drake or the cerb come into their own in gangs. They can absorb the damage (especially good on gates), leaving the armour tanked ships to deal the DPS.
You're joking, right? Nobody in their right mind with any ounce of brain ever primaries a Drake. Even if it's a gank HAM Drake (which is awesome), people will primary a Hurricane/Harbringer/Brutix because it's easier to gank it and they deliver somewhat more DPS.
At any rate, even if your Drake can take BS damage at its peak recharge with purgers, what is going to happen is that you'll have said tank for a very short time, and then you'll go splat in a spectacular way. if you want to be a damage sponge, then extender rigs (or resist rigs if you're cheap). Purgers are bad.
If anyone would primary your Cerb it's not going to take the damage from more then one ship, and I seriously doubt it tanks just a single one well fit and flown ship, I've ganked Cerbs in 20-30 seconds in a Hurricane generally.
Furthermore, people are not NPCs. They won't primary your bait buffer-tank ship (well, it happened to me, sure, I fought a KOS gang and me in a Jag and a passive tanked PvE fit drake murdered their 5-man gang, but that's the epitome of PvP disability and I don't believe the alliance exists anymore) and they surely won't keep shooting at a tank they can't break.
Originally by: o0TuNa0o
At the end of the day, it's easier to train tank than gank. Training tanking skills takes 1-2m SP's, where guns take around 4-6m before you can gank and make that much of a difference.
- Its strange hearing everyone talk about gank fits, when instinct tells you to fit tank. It's all down to skills at the end of the day.
If you are not fitting three damage mods on your shield tanked ships, you're doing something horribly wrong. Shield tanks are good precisely for the reason they can tank/buffer AND gank at the same time. SPR II is the most useless module ever for PvP.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.23 07:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Christina Bamar It depends entirely on the circumstances.
If you're going for a crazy expensive deadspace fitted PvE setup then yes, shield tanking is better.
Typically in PvP armor tanking wins out though.
For eloquence, this. I've always said that in PvP Shields are the little red bar to let you know you should turn your armor tank on soon and/or that someone took you off their Christmas card list.
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Holy Lowlander
Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2008.08.23 07:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: o0TuNa0o Simply
- Shield tanks can tank harder. But.. to field a great shield tank, you forgoe the abilty to fit tackle or have great dps.
Shield tanked ships, like the Drake or the cerb come into their own in gangs. They can absorb the damage (especially good on gates), leaving the armour tanked ships to deal the DPS.
Case in point. A purger Drake can take BS damage, whilst my cerb, with a cheap domi SB, can tank any CS I've come across.
At the end of the day, it's easier to train tank than gank. Training tanking skills takes 1-2m SP's, where guns take around 4-6m before you can gank and make that much of a difference.
- Its strange hearing everyone talk about gank fits, when instinct tells you to fit tank. It's all down to skills at the end of the day.
TuNa
hey the sac outtanks the cerb any day of the week !
Quote: woot I wants a toy arbitrator !!! :O
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Taku Sato
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Posted - 2008.08.23 08:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Holy Lowlander
Originally by: o0TuNa0o Simply
- Shield tanks can tank harder. But.. to field a great shield tank, you forgoe the abilty to fit tackle or have great dps.
Shield tanked ships, like the Drake or the cerb come into their own in gangs. They can absorb the damage (especially good on gates), leaving the armour tanked ships to deal the DPS.
Case in point. A purger Drake can take BS damage, whilst my cerb, with a cheap domi SB, can tank any CS I've come across.
At the end of the day, it's easier to train tank than gank. Training tanking skills takes 1-2m SP's, where guns take around 4-6m before you can gank and make that much of a difference.
- Its strange hearing everyone talk about gank fits, when instinct tells you to fit tank. It's all down to skills at the end of the day.
TuNa
hey the sac outtanks the cerb any day of the week !
yeah since when does the Cerb have any other tank than being 200+KM away from said enemy? If you fit tank on the Cerb, it'd be pretty useless IMO.
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achoura
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Posted - 2008.08.23 09:29:00 -
[14]
Shield tanks are a. tougher and b. more efficient than armour tanks, shield mods cost a bomb because every mission runner in the gate knows this and is willing to pay stupid amounts of isk for them. Simply, rich moron, intelligent trader, price goes up
Sometimes shields can tank better on armour ships, ie shield tanked ishtar is tougher than armour and somewhat ironically, a thanatos tanks far more damage shield tanked than armour tanked ***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.08.23 10:39:00 -
[15]
Originally by: achoura Shield tanks are a. tougher and b. more efficient than armour tanks, shield mods cost a bomb because every mission runner in the gate knows this and is willing to pay stupid amounts of isk for them. Simply, rich moron, intelligent trader, price goes up
Sometimes shields can tank better on armour ships, ie shield tanked ishtar is tougher than armour and somewhat ironically, a thanatos tanks far more damage shield tanked than armour tanked
shields normally are able to sustain higher DPS than a armor tank (its normally like 400 dps armor vs 650 shield, so its by a big amount actually), the saveing grace of a armor tanker is that you can do other things while being a semi decent tank.
effective hp, on a armor tanker is slightly better than a shield users in most cases.
why armor tank then? because your not gonna be doing PvE ratting all your life, and sometimes you might just want to be able to do something other than just tank stuff.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.23 10:55:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Pottsey on 23/08/2008 10:59:04
Originally by: Cpt Branko Shield-tanked ships with SPRs are F-A-I-L. They do no damage.
People who say that are epic fail and don't know what they are talking about. Why do people still come out with this rubbish. SPR dont lower damage, I use them with my railguns no problem at 700dps from my railguns without drones, that's hardly no damage. I do agree pure tanking is worthless to many people over tank for PvE. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Mara Kell
Steel Beasts
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Mara Kell on 23/08/2008 12:42:25 Well lets have a look at the Tier 2 BCs since they are some kind of PVE workhorse of eve.
Drake: very good passive shield tank, armor tank not working
Myrmidon: very good passive shield tank, good armor tank
Hurricane: very good passive shield tank, armor tank also possible
Harbinger: passive shield tank not working, armor tank possible
You can transfer this result over to most other ships, because beside Amarr all other races ships have a shield recharge rate that allows passive shield tanks. For Caldari a high shield recharge makes sense, and Minmatar should also be pretty good at it. But im still wondering why Galente as armor tanking race has such a high base shield recharge rate compared to amarr. I mean, they have a ship with 7.5%! repair bonus for a level and still the mymidon is legendary for its passive shield builds. How much more crazy can it get?
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.23 13:05:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Pottsey on 23/08/2008 13:06:55 "But im still wondering why Galente as armor tanking race has such a high base shield recharge rate compared to amarr." They are not an amour tanking only race. Gallante started off as being the only ones to HP regen passive tank and are credited with haveing the first usefull passive shield tanks. It took years before Caldari could join in. Gallante hold all the recharge records. In the past it was Gallante had the faster recharge and higher HP regen while Caldari had the higher hitpoints but much slower HP regen.
Now it's all messed up and unbalanced with shield rechargers being super rare on Gallante ships compared to the past. Passive tanking needs rebalancing. Not nerfing. Shield Rechargers need fixing so they are usefull again and extenders need nerfing. I would give a small penalty along the lines of -5% shield recharge per shield extender. Then boost shield rechargers 5 or 10% each. Not sure on precise numbers as testing is needed.
"mymidon is legendary for its passive shield builds. How much more crazy can it get?" Its not crazy, what's crazy is that Caldari ships suddenly got so good at passive shield HP regen and shield rechargers become useless. I miss the days with Caldari being buffer tanks and Gallante shield recharge or armor.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Mara Kell
Steel Beasts
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Posted - 2008.08.23 16:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Pottsey
"mymidon is legendary for its passive shield builds. How much more crazy can it get?" Its not crazy, what's crazy is that Caldari ships suddenly got so good at passive shield HP regen and shield rechargers become useless. I miss the days with Caldari being buffer tanks and Gallante shield recharge or armor.
Hmm i guess that was before when i started playing eve. What did happen that made caldaris so good with passive shield tanking? I wish Amarr ships had some shield recharge rate too. Just to have more choices for PVE ships. On the long run "PVE = armor repper tank" and "PVP = armor passive tank" gets a bit booring. And what is CCP calling Amarr again? The tank race? I have to laugh about this when i see how much passive shield tanks can sustain. Even a heavily tanked multi repper Apoc/Aba is easily surpassed by passive shield BC tanks especially when it comes to omni tanking.
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.23 17:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Christina Bamar It depends entirely on the circumstances.
If you're going for a crazy expensive deadspace fitted PvE setup then yes, shield tanking is better.
Typically in PvP armor tanking wins out though.
Not really, shield passive tanks on hics are better than armour tanking hictors. Also although its not "true" shield tanking, most nano's fit shield buffer tnaks (lse) as they dont slow them down.
In captial fleets armour is often prefered but simply because its more common and therefore rr for aromour is more popular... poudly annoying fc's since 2007
The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738 |
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.23 17:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pottsey and extenders need nerfing.
NOOOO
that wld be an effective nerf to the nighthawk (already a tad underpowered). VERY bad idea poudly annoying fc's since 2007
The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738 |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.23 17:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cpt Branko good post
this basically poudly annoying fc's since 2007
The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738 |
Kuzya Morozov
Gallente L8L8L8
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Posted - 2008.08.23 17:26:00 -
[23]
gogo cpt branko he knows how to gank FW noobs in lowsec :)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:47:00 -
[24]
"What did happen that made caldaris so good with passive shield tanking?" I forgot precisely how many boosts there was in the end but shield extenders got boosted at least twice. Also ships got there shield hitpoints boosted by 50% or was it 25% twice. The first time they forgot to adjust the base shield recharge. The 2nd time I think it was 25% hitpoints but 25% slower base recharge. Or sometimes along those lines. The old shield extenders used to give far less hitpoints and take up far more PG.
"NOOOO that wld be an effective nerf to the nighthawk (already a tad underpowered)." But I boosted shield rechargers so it would still be able to keep the high HP regen if not have higher HP rege. The change just means passive tank have to go back to choosing between a buffer tank or HP regen tank not have both.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.23 22:17:00 -
[25]
Outside of solo PvP within web range, shield tanks are FAR better. Why? Outside of solo PvP, active regen/repair is meaningless, all that matters is your HP buffer. And for buffer tanking, shields are far superior:
1) Shield tanking uses mid slots, leaving your more valuable low slots free for damage mods and fitting mods (= bigger guns = more damage). Since damage is better than tank, shield tanking is prefered.
2) Shields regenerate themselves over time. Armor buffer tanks either need to waste a slot on a rep or depend on remote/station repair, while a shield buffer tank repairs itself for the next fight (or instantly and for free, if you dock).
But seriously, put a point, MWD, and 3x damage mods on a ship and compare shield vs. armor. On pretty much anything but an Amarr ship, the shield tank wins.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 23:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 23/08/2008 10:59:04
Originally by: Cpt Branko Shield-tanked ships with SPRs are F-A-I-L. They do no damage.
People who say that are epic fail and don't know what they are talking about. Why do people still come out with this rubbish. SPR dont lower damage, I use them with my railguns no problem at 700dps from my railguns without drones, that's hardly no damage. I do agree pure tanking is worthless to many people over tank for PvE.
Well, not fitting three damage mods is lowering your damage, that's what I'm talking about. Generally, passive shield tanking is 100% useless in PvP, even for bait ships.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.24 09:51:00 -
[27]
"Well, not fitting three damage mods is lowering your damage," I think we had a little misunderstanding , I thought you comment on SPR's and no damage was for PvE as you talked about PvE right after. I fit 3 damage mods and SPR's all the time but yeah for PvP SPR's are nearly always one of the worst options as buffer tanks rule so fit PDS.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Malcanis
We are Legend eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.24 11:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Outside of solo PvP within web range, shield tanks are FAR better. Why? Outside of solo PvP, active regen/repair is meaningless, all that matters is your HP buffer. And for buffer tanking, shields are far superior:
1) Shield tanking uses mid slots, leaving your more valuable low slots free for damage mods and fitting mods (= bigger guns = more damage). Since damage is better than tank, shield tanking is prefered.
2) Shields regenerate themselves over time. Armor buffer tanks either need to waste a slot on a rep or depend on remote/station repair, while a shield buffer tank repairs itself for the next fight (or instantly and for free, if you dock).
But seriously, put a point, MWD, and 3x damage mods on a ship and compare shield vs. armor. On pretty much anything but an Amarr ship, the shield tank wins.
That's an interesting assertion. How would you apply it to, say, a Megathron?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.24 18:45:00 -
[29]
"That's an interesting assertion. How would you apply it to, say, a Megathron?" Not too sure it's better than an amour tank but it does work.
7 neut blasters T2. 3 damage mods and 4 PDS for a HP buffer and cap, perhaps 3 pds and 1 DCU. Then fit 1 microwarp, web, invul field and shield extender or no web and 2 shield extenders in the mids. As your in a gang you then get a 10 to 15% further shield HP boost. If you have the isk use T1 extender rigs.
You end up with a 1000 ish dps output, faster than a plate amour tank, a 20 to 30k shield buffer that regens. Plus most people think your an amour tanked so hit you for thermal/kinetic.
Useless solo but in a gang its works well.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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queen1121
Empire Dreams
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Posted - 2008.08.24 21:16:00 -
[30]
anything can shield tank for pve. For pvp, meh :D
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