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Phoenix119
Caldari
Rum Runners' Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.23 07:24:00 -
[1]
Well heres the thing, IMO ( NOTE IMO ) falcons are op. Sitting out 150km+ jamming ppl ALMOST perm. is op to me. So my buddies and I go out, about 4x of us and all fit 1-2x ECCMS knowing that almost every fight we get into we run into a falcon. Well shore enough we go to engage a ishtar and dictor with fighters (all of us are in bs,bcs,hvy dictor) and with most of us haveing 1x ECCM we are still getting jammed ALOT by one falcon. So do eccms actually work????? I did notice I wasnt being perm jamed :P :P :P but as soon as i got a lock I got jamed..... :*( :*( :*( I just like ppl that say in other ppls topics about falcons and ecm being op "Have u herd of eccm???" Lol go try it plz.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
The Monkey Sanctuary
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Posted - 2008.08.23 07:38:00 -
[2]
*sigh* Yet again, YES ECCM is an important mod, and it does help you out a ton. When you're in a gang (you're in a gang right?) those ECCM mods mean the Falcon pilot needs to devote more jammers to your little ship to get a "perma" (not true perma) jam, if he gets it at all!
This means less targets jammed, and if the total amount of targets jammed is less than total targets, the Falcon leaves or dies as soon as it's being shot.
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Market Checkerr
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Posted - 2008.08.23 11:57:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Phoenix119
Well heres the thing, IMO ( NOTE IMO ) falcons are op. Sitting out 150km+ jamming ppl ALMOST perm. is op to me. So my buddies and I go out, about 4x of us and all fit 1-2x ECCMS knowing that almost every fight we get into we run into a falcon. Well shore enough we go to engage a ishtar and dictor with fighters (all of us are in bs,bcs,hvy dictor) and with most of us haveing 1x ECCM we are still getting jammed ALOT by one falcon. So do eccms actually work????? I did notice I wasnt being perm jamed :P :P :P but as soon as i got a lock I got jamed..... :*( :*( :*( I just like ppl that say in other ppls topics about falcons and ecm being op "Have u herd of eccm???" Lol go try it plz.
did you activate it...?
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:01:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 12:01:44
One ECCM still makes it fairly easy to put you out of the fight tbh. (Particularly on sub BS ships)
Being jammed 50% of the time in a BS is being put out of the fight for 70% of the time thanks to relock times, anyway.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:03:00 -
[5]
I have had it both ways - single ECCM geddon and I was jammed once by a scorp in several minutes of fighting. Have also been in fights where as soon as the falcon turned up I couldn't lock till our gang/I died. I would prefer ECCM to be a script for sensor boosters, but that is just me.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Captator
I would prefer ECCM to be a script for sensor boosters, but that is just me.
Yeah, me too. But having it just have more power is something I'd really like.
Some way of making ECCM useful for smaller ships would be nice too (say, a +18 sensor str power ECCM variant), because percentage increases don't mean much when your base sensor str is bad (think about RCUs vs MAPCs).
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murder one
Gallente
Invincible Reason
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
*sigh* Yet again, YES ECCM is an important mod, and it does help you out a ton. When you're in a gang (you're in a gang right?) those ECCM mods mean the Falcon pilot needs to devote more jammers to your little ship to get a "perma" (not true perma) jam, if he gets it at all!
This means less targets jammed, and if the total amount of targets jammed is less than total targets, the Falcon leaves or dies as soon as it's being shot.
ECCM is only valuable when it's fit to another Falcon to avoid being counterjammed by a Falcon.
Anyone else who says anything to the contrary is lying to protect their own self interests. Yes, I just called you a liar to your face.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
eXtas
Atomic Battle Penguins
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:11:00 -
[8]
eccm isnt good enough... when fighting a falcon I usually fit 2-3 eccm on a huginn and overload them... but I get jammed anyway so lol...
but against ecm drones they help. so its a must if you are stationhuging or all targets will warp away :P
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: eXtas
but against ecm drones they help. so its a must if you are stationhuging or all targets will warp away :P
Yep, I get more use out of ECCM for dealing with ECM drones then anything else 
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: eXtas
eccm isnt good enough... when fighting a falcon I usually fit 2-3 eccm on a huginn and overload them... but I get jammed anyway so lol...
but against ecm drones they help. so its a must if you are stationhuging or all targets will warp away :P
You're doing it wrong  assuming you land within 40km at some point, use a curse with 3 neuts - instanocap, its one of the few cruisers you can do that to regardless of their cap percentage level
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eXtas
Atomic Battle Penguins
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Captator
Originally by: eXtas
eccm isnt good enough... when fighting a falcon I usually fit 2-3 eccm on a huginn and overload them... but I get jammed anyway so lol...
but against ecm drones they help. so its a must if you are stationhuging or all targets will warp away :P
You're doing it wrong assuming you land within 40km at some point, use a curse with 3 neuts - instanocap, its one of the few cruisers you can do that to regardless of their cap percentage level
or I can use a bs with neuts... but first you need to get a lock before jammed... and you need to get into that 40km when he is 200kmm away... best chance is ecm drones + bumping lol
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:32:00 -
[12]
Well, curses aren't going to go very fast post-patch
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
7th Cav
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:41:00 -
[13]
sensor damps anyone?
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.08.23 12:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Well, curses aren't going to go very fast post-patch
I know  gone from 3.1km/s to 1.8km/s
and to Megan, wtf is a damp?
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 14:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
sensor damps anyone?
Range?
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.08.23 15:14:00 -
[16]
if your gang doesn't have a pilot capable of hitting past 150 km to counter these perma jamming op falcons - maybe you should change your tactics?
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 15:34:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 15:34:46
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 15:34:29
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 15:33:58
Originally by: Omarvelous
if your gang doesn't have a pilot capable of hitting past 150 km to counter these perma jamming op falcons - maybe you should change your tactics?
Well, the tactic only works if you're outnumbering your opponent anyway so you can sacrifice BS to be only useful for sniping Falcons.
On the other hand, a Falcon is infinitely more useful, since it can both neutralize other Falcons and jam other ships.
A sniping BS incapable of doing anything but shooting Falcons is obviously a inferior counter*, not even considering Falcons have a covops cloak, so you cannot scout for them.
*Another counter, nanoships, is just in the process of getting a big nerf too; and at least nanos were not only anti-falcon ships.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Burn Mac
Minmatar
Burning Steel Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 19:46:00 -
[18]
/me thinks of cowns movie when he had 2 or 3 ECCM:s overloaded getting a 168 sensor strength and still got permjammed. Falcon is op when one cruiser size ship can cancel out 3-4 BS:es.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.23 20:14:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Grimpak on 23/08/2008 20:14:33
Originally by: Burn Mac
/me thinks of cowns movie when he had 2 or 3 ECCM:s overloaded getting a 168 sensor strength and still got permjammed. Falcon is op when one cruiser size ship can cancel out 3-4 BS:es.
while it can cancel out 3-4 bs'es, it is also true that it can't do jack shit by itself.
which brings the fact that it does it's job of being a force multiplier as intended.
but tbh the only thing I would change on the falcon would be the range bonus, nothing else.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Radcjk
Caldari
Dark Star LTD
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:07:00 -
[20]
Yay, another ecm / eccm / falcon thread. yay!
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Nayannia Night
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:25:00 -
[21]
If your in a gang, and using eccm your doing it wrong anyway. Espec if your trying to prevent enemy falcons, try REMOTE ECCM, its stronger and a spider eccm chain is rediculous (<--Falcon Pilot). a stupid example of this is fighting a carrrier that had one, and keept me from jamming him AND anyother ship I was trying for. Also ECCM have another purpose to beating us Falcons.... SS cloak (effectively) for you. Since I will almost never find you (chance but not very quick or likely) if you get to your ss and turn them on. Probes use your str as well. Another reason for not having ECCM being a solid number and percent based. Or inties and other frigs would never be found in a SS.
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Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
EVESpace
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:30:00 -
[22]
I want huginn webs to go 150km out. Man that would kick ass.
But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Nayannia Night
Since I will almost never find you (chance but not very quick or likely) if you get to your ss and turn them on. Probes use your str as well. Another reason for not having ECCM being a solid number and percent based. Or inties and other frigs would never be found in a SS.
So, wait. ECCM should not be buffed because, wait, it breaks probing out people in safespots.
Ok. Can we have a module which just flat out gives us 150% increased jam resistance and doesn't affect sensor str? That's fine really.
And about remote ECCM: remote ECCM is gives 115%, ECCM gives 100%. The difference isn't as big as you make it out to be, and if someone gets jammed and you remote ECCM him, well, congrats, you just did absolutely nothing, as he's jammed for 20s anyway.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:43:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 21:45:34
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 21:45:21
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 21:44:40
Originally by: Grimpak
while it can cancel out 3-4 bs'es, it is also true that it can't do jack shit by itself.
That's like, 100% irrelevant. Remote reps do nothing by themselves too, absolutely nothing. Can we have 100% more rep amount (or 200km range) because they do nothing by themselves?
300-500% effect remote ECCM because it both does jack shit by itself and is, even worse, just a counter to something rather then a force multiplier?
Can we boost logistics range to 200km because they don't do anything themselves?
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.08.23 22:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 23/08/2008 20:14:33
Originally by: Burn Mac
/me thinks of cowns movie when he had 2 or 3 ECCM:s overloaded getting a 168 sensor strength and still got permjammed. Falcon is op when one cruiser size ship can cancel out 3-4 BS:es.
while it can cancel out 3-4 bs'es, it is also true that it can't do jack shit by itself.
which brings the fact that it does it's job of being a force multiplier as intended.
but tbh the only thing I would change on the falcon would be the range bonus, nothing else.
Yeah its a force multiplier and its only divider is an opposing Falcon, working as intended? i think not.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
The Monkey Sanctuary
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Posted - 2008.08.23 22:24:00 -
[26]
It's only divider is an opposing Falcon? Where is this load of crap coming from?
First of all, super range Falcons rely on racials. This is a severe limitation due to the fact a racial only covers 25% of ships. They can't get full jamming on all ships without using Multispecs (around 100km range).
Also, if you're in a gang, it is still going to be difficult for a Falcon to jam the entire fleet, ESPECIALLY if they're using ECCMs.
Long range weapons will take out Falcons, Stealth Bombers are incredibly effective (Iknow, I've been removed from fights by these little buggers, and only luck kept my ship).
Another Falcon is neither the only, nor the best solution for an enemy Falcon. Anyone who says that it is simply doesn't know what they're talking about, or using familiar rhetoric so that something they're not willing to put the little effort to adapt to will get nerfed.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.23 22:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kano Sekor
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 23/08/2008 20:14:33
Originally by: Burn Mac
/me thinks of cowns movie when he had 2 or 3 ECCM:s overloaded getting a 168 sensor strength and still got permjammed. Falcon is op when one cruiser size ship can cancel out 3-4 BS:es.
while it can cancel out 3-4 bs'es, it is also true that it can't do jack shit by itself.
which brings the fact that it does it's job of being a force multiplier as intended.
but tbh the only thing I would change on the falcon would be the range bonus, nothing else.
Yeah its a force multiplier and its only divider is an opposing Falcon, working as intended? i think not.
as I said in the last part of the post, cut down on the range, and the supposed counter for it (damps) will work as intended on the ship.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Nayannia Night
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Posted - 2008.08.23 23:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cpt Branko}
So, wait. ECCM should not be buffed because, wait, it breaks probing out people in safespots.
Ok. Can we have a module which just flat out gives us 150% increased jam resistance and doesn't affect sensor str? That's fine really.
And about remote ECCM: remote ECCM is gives 115%, ECCM gives 100%. The difference isn't as big as you make it out to be, and if someone gets jammed and you remote ECCM him, well, congrats, you just did absolutely nothing, as he's jammed for 20s anyway.
[/quote
Remote ECCM is still better. and if I am jamming 1 but not the others, its doing its juob. plus in most fights with gang. Falcons (atleast smart ones, the ones you need to worry about) arent jamming the biggest badest guy first, they are jamming based on priority, like logs and enemy recons first as an example. Lesson on how spider works, RR BS dont all rep everyone at once, they rep the guy that is being shot. If I jam a bs its because he is the biggest threat to my friendlies(or is in a small fleet), meaning the rest of you put eccm on him, and I wont be. bs with 40ish str is hard to jam, bs with 80 str is even harder, and thats only 2 remote ECCM. And since its remote, that could be from 2 ships, making their 1 slot more useful than personal again.
if there is 6 of you in the fight yes I will prob have a jammer on each, but thats like *****ing because a Rapier helped his guys level your 5 man frig fleet.
Recon = Enemy Force Reducer, Friendly Force Multiplier
and the solid number thing about ss hiding, eccm still works for that. But it would make it pointless for a bs using it(in and out of ss hiding), making your arugment suppoting it worse. Though frigs would be in heaven. = bad idea for balance and your side.
[End to response to guy above]
ECM and ECCM is fine.
Bithcing about recons str is stupid. They cant do much alone. And yeah, they do their job well, imagine that. If it was easy to counter all the recons on your own ship alone, then recons would be pointless. if your focusing on too much eccm, next you will ***** that the arazu has made it impossible to target anything, or that a rapiers webs reach to far killing your speed tanks, or that a curses tracking disruptors are too strong breaking your megathron fleets tracking to oblivion.
You spend too much time trying to ***** about the recon when its his buddies that killed you, he was just their advantage. If you left home for pvp with out an advantage to your fleet yourself(not just recons) your deserving of the OMGWTFPWN.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 23:35:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 23:37:12
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2008 23:35:48
Originally by: Nayannia Night
Lesson on how spider works, RR BS dont all rep everyone at once, they rep the guy that is being shot. If I jam a bs its because he is the biggest threat to my friendlies(or is in a small fleet), meaning the rest of you put eccm on him, and I wont be.
He'll still be jammed for the duration of the cycle, and you can freely jam the other guys next. In a RR BS gang you're not jamming primaries anyway, you're trying to jam everyone else who's trying to rep the guy being shot (well, obviously you will have priorities which you cannot fullfill if they remote ECCM, but you can just jam other people and you'll still have a very large effect on the outcome). Which gives you ample selection of ships to jam (and, yes, it does prevent you from prioritizing - but it does not prevent you from distrupting RRs and damage).
While your general comments on recons are OK, no recon matches to a Falcon in effectiveness as a force multiplier. Damps are nowhere as efficent (nor do they have the range). Tracking disruptors - range, efficency (and the Curse can be scouted for - so it's the Pilgrim you can compare rather then the Curse).
Basically, the thing with Falcons is that they're the most effective cloaking recon which has the best range of all cloaking recons and EW which has the broadest range of application, and the price they pay (-1 midslot, slightly less sensor str/etc) for getting a covops cloak is too low.
Furthermore, adding more and better counters (as they've just axed one) is quite necessary.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.24 00:29:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/08/2008 00:29:55
Originally by: Nayannia Night
I used the curse as an example to show all recons, not just force, I wasnt counting the covert cloak ability but the ewar factor. but yeah even pilgrim. And yeah though I can jam others, though not nesc my primary. And like I mentioned, if I am on the bs it because he is biggest threat to my fleet not because he is the 'primary', I call my own primaries to support the fleets effort, and I think msot(if not all) FC's expect there primary calls to apply to everyone except there roled support, logs and recons, ect.
Though yes I can jam others than him, it causes alot of problems for me, and I am not getting the right targets jammed, atleast not constantly, meaning you are crushing my effectiveness on your fleets efforts, making the remote eccm still a major help/thorn in my side.
Well, it's true that it does cause problems to you, but it doesn't really render you ineffective (just less effective). So useful, yes, that indisputable.
At any rate, my belief is that the Falcon works far too well compared to other cloaking recons for gang support - it's simply more useful in a broader range of applications then the other cloaking recons (which it directly competes with - and nearly all of them are generally specialist ships and useful in a gang scenario (well, bar the Pilgrim, but you'll be able to have solo fun with it post patch) ) while having a massive range advantage over the others.
Furthermore, one of its best counters is getting a imminent nerf, increasing its survivability (beacuse, with all the talk about ECCM sniper BS which do drive them off sucessfully if you spot the Falcons and have the numerical advantage, most of our Falcon kills were with nanoships rather then anything else).
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