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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:40:00 -
[1]
There is so much controversy out there regarding T2 BPOĘs so I wanted to get some sort of feedback as to how many BPOĘs CCP actually released. Were there a certain number of each randomly issued out, if so how many of each type?
God knows how many have been destroyed, lost due to players leaving EvE or just simply trashed by mistake. A comparison to then and now would be interesting to see.
Has CCP considered running a quarry on the d-base to see how many are still in existence and post the findings for public knowledge? Maybe this will result in a new lottery that will allow a second go round for the current EvE community.
Just some thoughtsą DonĘt FLAME me.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:40:00 -
[2]
There is so much controversy out there regarding T2 BPOĘs so I wanted to get some sort of feedback as to how many BPOĘs CCP actually released. Were there a certain number of each randomly issued out, if so how many of each type?
God knows how many have been destroyed, lost due to players leaving EvE or just simply trashed by mistake. A comparison to then and now would be interesting to see.
Has CCP considered running a quarry on the d-base to see how many are still in existence and post the findings for public knowledge? Maybe this will result in a new lottery that will allow a second go round for the current EvE community.
Just some thoughtsą DonĘt FLAME me.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltd0wn
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:43:00 -
[3]
I think I read something about 8 per ship, 16 per module and 64 per ammo once in the s&i forum. Probably wrong though.
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[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltd0wn
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:43:00 -
[4]
I think I read something about 8 per ship, 16 per module and 64 per ammo once in the s&i forum. Probably wrong though.
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[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:50:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Matalino on 27/08/2008 23:49:53
The controversy is over the fact that some people have something that nobody else can get except by trading with those who have one.
That something actually has a use and is therefore valuable.
The some of the have-not's want to nerf those that have.
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Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:50:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Matalino on 27/08/2008 23:49:53
The controversy is over the fact that some people have something that nobody else can get except by trading with those who have one.
That something actually has a use and is therefore valuable.
The some of the have-not's want to nerf those that have.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 27/08/2008 23:56:21
 Originally by: Matalino
Edited by: Matalino on 27/08/2008 23:49:53
The controversy is over the fact that some people have something that nobody else can get except by trading with those who have one.
That something actually has a use and is therefore valuable.
The some of the have-not's want to nerf those that have.
There is a word for that.... ENVY!
I would be interested in seeing the statistics that CCP can produce on these BPO's though. I think many people would be surprised in how many are out there and if it is possible to see the usage of them would be good data as well.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:54:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 27/08/2008 23:56:21
Originally by: Matalino
Edited by: Matalino on 27/08/2008 23:49:53
The controversy is over the fact that some people have something that nobody else can get except by trading with those who have one.
That something actually has a use and is therefore valuable.
The some of the have-not's want to nerf those that have.
There is a word for that.... ENVY!
I would be interested in seeing the statistics that CCP can produce on these BPO's though. I think many people would be surprised in how many are out there and if it is possible to see the usage of them would be good data as well.
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Nexus Kinnon
A Few Good Men.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:21:00 -
[9]
I thought it was 32 for ammos.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 28/08/2008 00:29:34
CCP,
Can you elaborate on this?
How many T2 BPO's were distributed?
Can you provide a breakdown of how many of each type as well.
This should be data that is easily accessible so hopefully the right person will read this post and provide some insight to T2 BPO's.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.28 01:00:00 -
[11]
Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 28/08/2008 01:01:01
i wonder what would happen if all those t2bpo's wer to cough**be destroyed***cough,**cough** dissapear?
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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mineforman
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Posted - 2008.08.28 01:27:00 -
[12]
CCP will never release data about that because I bet the lion share of Bpo2 are in BOB's hands!
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.28 03:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
I think I read something about 8 per ship, 16 per module and 64 per ammo once in the s&i forum. Probably wrong though.
It was originally at least 8 per ship, but they were at least doubled before the lottery ended.
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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 03:59:00 -
[14]
I don't think they want anyone to know how many are around and still in use, as T2 BPO Cartels then know how many they still have to buy/steal/destroy to be able to re-establish some price fixing.
Sure, it won't be as bad as before invention, but it'll still mean price rises.
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Tiirae
The New Era
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.08.28 04:07:00 -
[15]
Some people don't seem to have got the memo yet... T2 BPO owners cannot produce at enough volume to have *ANY* effect on the price of T2 components. Understand? The number of T2 BPC's producing stuff every day absolutely DWARFS the amount of goods a T2 BPO can produce.
Even if one person owned every T2 BPO in the game, it wouldn't make a single ISK of difference to the price of anything.
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Blasko Fiasco
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Posted - 2008.08.28 04:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
I don't think they want anyone to know how many are around and still in use, as T2 BPO Cartels then know how many they still have to buy/steal/destroy to be able to re-establish some price fixing.
Sure, it won't be as bad as before invention, but it'll still mean price rises.
Price fixing? T2 bpo's do not have the market impact any longer. Some items are produced at or under cost. Yes there is still profit but the multitudes can take a shot through invention.
Removing those bpos will not move prices.
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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 04:29:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 28/08/2008 04:29:30
But manufacturing from the BPO is still cheaper than negative ME BPCs, right?
edit: Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
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Grim Mercy
Heretic Logistics
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.08.28 04:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tiirae
Some people don't seem to have got the memo yet... T2 BPO owners cannot produce at enough volume to have *ANY* effect on the price of T2 components. Understand? The number of T2 BPC's producing stuff every day absolutely DWARFS the amount of goods a T2 BPO can produce.
Even if one person owned every T2 BPO in the game, it wouldn't make a single ISK of difference to the price of anything.
No, they can't fix the price... but they'd make an absolute killing if they had every single T2 BPO in the game... hell, if they had every single T2 BPO for just one thing.
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Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2008.08.28 04:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: mineforman
CCP will never release data about that because I bet the lion share of Bpo2 are in BOB's hands!
Some say the approximate percent is 62-67% of BPOs. BoB did it smart though, can't really complain about them using thought out tactics to build an empire.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tiirae
Some people don't seem to have got the memo yet... T2 BPO owners cannot produce at enough volume to have *ANY* effect on the price of T2 components. Understand? The number of T2 BPC's producing stuff every day absolutely DWARFS the amount of goods a T2 BPO can produce.
If you know how much volume they can produce then clearly you must know how many BPOs are out there. (That was the question which prompted this thread, remember?) So share. How many BPOs are there?
Originally by: Tiirae
Even if one person owned every T2 BPO in the game, it wouldn't make a single ISK of difference to the price of anything.
Unless, of course, they're in my market selling for below my (but not their) cost. After all, they aren't paying for datacores, decryptors, base items etc., they aren't watching a very real percentage of their attempts generate nothing at all, and they can research to perfect ME on their BP, while I'm stuck with what I can get. So no matter how thin a margin I cut, they can always undercut me.
Even if it doesn't ruin the system (and it doesn't) it still seems quite significant to me.
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Aramova
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: mineforman
CCP will never release data about that because I bet the lion share of Bpo2 are in BOB's hands!
Lies!! 
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Darkwolf
Caldari
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Unless, of course, they're in my market selling for below my (but not their) cost.
Then you buy their goods, mark them up to your price, and keep on your merry way.
They cannot produce in high enough volumes to outcompete the mass of inventors.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:41:00 -
[23]
I think people are missing the point to this thread.
It is a thread to find out how many T2 BPO's were release and to see if CCP would do an audit on the current usage and inventory of them.
It doesn't matter if BoB or your mom got them all.
Keep the finger pointing out of my thread and start your own.
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Joe
Umbra Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:43:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Schalac
Originally by: mineforman
CCP will never release data about that because I bet the lion share of Bpo2 are in BOB's hands!
Some say the approximate percent is 62-67% of BPOs. BoB did it smart though, can't really complain about them using thought out tactics to build an empire.
There are 20,000 Tech II bpos in the game.
If people considered the rediculous Anti-BoB propaganda they would need 1,000 Pilots running 12,400-13,400 Factorys for their 62-67% 'Monopoly'. Sounds very pluasable
Even as a member of NAGA I never saw close to 1% of T2 BPOS.
I think the Lottery Disributted the T2 BPO's well amongst the Thousands of corps and Industrialists playing.
Its a pity we have to wait once a year to ask the devs (at Fanfest Q&A) about the future of T2 BPO's curently Ingame , but i look foraward to hearing their respose again this year.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:47:00 -
[25]
How many were generated isn't the real question.
The question you should ask is how many of each remains in game as some probably have left game through destruction or players leaving.
They really should have removed all the t2 BPOs. Until they do it is not viable to run an invention business.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: El'Niaga
How many were generated isn't the real question.
The question you should ask is how many of each remains in game as some probably have left game through destruction or players leaving.
They really should have removed all the t2 BPOs. Until they do it is not viable to run an invention business.
You should read from the top and you would see this was the original questions along with others.
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Sam Ryder
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: El'Niaga
How many were generated isn't the real question.
The question you should ask is how many of each remains in game as some probably have left game through destruction or players leaving.
They really should have removed all the t2 BPOs. Until they do it is not viable to run an invention business.
No then do something else you dumb shit! or quit in emorage.
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Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2008.08.28 05:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Joe
Originally by: Schalac
Originally by: mineforman
CCP will never release data about that because I bet the lion share of Bpo2 are in BOB's hands!
Some say the approximate percent is 62-67% of BPOs. BoB did it smart though, can't really complain about them using thought out tactics to build an empire.
There are 20,000 Tech II bpos in the game.
If people considered the rediculous Anti-BoB propaganda they would need 1,000 Pilots running 12,400-13,400 Factorys for their 62-67% 'Monopoly'. Sounds very pluasable
Even as a member of NAGA I never saw close to 1% of T2 BPOS.
I think the Lottery Disributted the T2 BPO's well amongst the Thousands of corps and Industrialists playing.
Its a pity we have to wait once a year to ask the devs (at Fanfest Q&A) about the future of T2 BPO's curently Ingame, but i look foraward to hearing their respose again this year.
Wasn't it policy of BoB way back when though that if you were a member you had to have a research alt running so that you had a better chance of getting a BPO? My history might be a little fuzzy on this but I think that it did actually happen.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 28/08/2008 06:00:35
Wasn't it policy of BoB way back when though that if you were a member you had to have a research alt running so that you had a better chance of getting a BPO? My history might be a little fuzzy on this but I think that it did actually happen.
And this is relevent why?
All aside.. smart move on BoB's part but this is not about Bob.
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 28/08/2008 04:29:30
But manufacturing from the BPO is still cheaper than negative ME BPCs, right?
edit: Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
Dunno, why would someone spend 80 billion on a state raven?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:03:00 -
[31]
Originally by: El'Niaga
How many were generated isn't the real question.
The question you should ask is how many of each remains in game as some probably have left game through destruction or players leaving.
They really should have removed all the t2 BPOs. Until they do it is not viable to run an invention business.
Yeah, no-one makes any money in invention, right?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:03:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Schalac
Wasn't it policy of BoB way back when though that if you were a member you had to have a research alt running so that you had a better chance of getting a BPO? My history might be a little fuzzy on this but I think that it did actually happen.
I'd assume so, but I'm sure hundreds of other corps would have the same type of policy, even now for Datacores, its how Co-op in a multiplayer game benifits a Corp over an individual.
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Sam Ryder
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:04:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 28/08/2008 04:29:30
But manufacturing from the BPO is still cheaper than negative ME BPCs, right?
edit: Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
Dunno, why would someone spend 80 billion on a state raven?
because they can afford it, and they love seeing emo kids crying whining and quitting because they cant have it.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Rimsa Orion
There is so much controversy out there regarding T2 BPOĘs so I wanted to get some sort of feedback as to how many BPOĘs CCP actually released. Were there a certain number of each randomly issued out, if so how many of each type?
God knows how many have been destroyed, lost due to players leaving EvE or just simply trashed by mistake. A comparison to then and now would be interesting to see.
Has CCP considered running a quarry on the d-base to see how many are still in existence and post the findings for public knowledge? Maybe this will result in a new lottery that will allow a second go round for the current EvE community.
Just some thoughtsą DonĘt FLAME me.
Only CCP know how many were released, and it will be the third lottery.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: El'Niaga
They really should have removed all the t2 BPOs. Until they do it is not viable to run an invention business.
Weird, I have no issue getting profits from my inventions. You must do something very wrong.
You absolutely want a T2 Bpo? No need to get jealous, just start saving money and buy one form another player. You'll need something like 2 years or more to recoup your money, but you'll have a "Uber Unfair Money-Printing T2 BPO", right?
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Darkwolf
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Unless, of course, they're in my market selling for below my (but not their) cost.
Then you buy their goods, mark them up to your price, and keep on your merry way.
They cannot produce in high enough volumes to outcompete the mass of inventors.
Without getting into the deep silliness of that proposal the fact remains that unless we actually know how many of these BPOs are out there (which is the question under discussion) we don't know what volume "they" can produce. You (and others before you) are claiming to know exactly how much impact an unknown number of t2 BPOs has on the market. You don't. You can't. It's not possible.
Don't get me wrong here, I am making a comfortable margin in the market without a t2 BPO to my name but the t2 BPOs do have an impact. The question is how much.
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Darkwolf
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Unless, of course, they're in my market selling for below my (but not their) cost.
Then you buy their goods, mark them up to your price, and keep on your merry way.
They cannot produce in high enough volumes to outcompete the mass of inventors.
Without getting into the deep silliness of that proposal the fact remains that unless we actually know how many of these BPOs are out there (which is the question under discussion) we don't know what volume "they" can produce. You (and others before you) are claiming to know exactly how much impact an unknown number of t2 BPOs has on the market. You don't. You can't. It's not possible.
Don't get me wrong here, I am making a comfortable margin in the market without a t2 BPO to my name but the t2 BPOs do have an impact. The question is how much.
True. Their effect could range from anywhere between "trivial" to "hardly any".
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Grim Mercy
Heretic Logistics
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:02:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Grim Mercy on 28/08/2008 07:03:37
If anything, T2 BPOs are keeping prices *down* on T2 goods, because the researched BPO-holding producers can produce cheaper than the invention types.
Some may put items up at 75-85% market value for a quick sale, and of course those are going to be gobbled up in seconds and re-listed at market price a few seconds after that.
How I imagine they drive prices down is by playing a version of the .01 isk game; instead of listing it at .01 isk lower than the lowest price, however, they have the wiggle room to drop the price 1 or 2 million, still get their quick sale (not quite as quick as a full 25% discount, but still quicker than the high-priced guys) and still make a tidy profit. If you've ever played the .01 isk game, I'm sure you've seen that, over time, it can drive the price down on anything. I'm sure it didn't take the market savvy BPO-holders long to figure out the invention bottom end, and price their wares accordingly right around there, as that would be the low-ceiling price cap.
If no T2 BPOs existed, the market would settle somewhere a bit higher, unless everyone currently engaged in invention had a glut of items to get rid of and subsequently flooded the market.
I don't think the number of BPOs in the game would really give any good clues as to how much they can affect the market... If you have a handful in existance, and actively being used, they are going to have an impact on the market. Truthfully, I think knowing the number of BPOs would only shed light on how many BPOs there are, and not much else
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Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:02:00 -
[39]
Thread was allready Answered on page 1; theres 20k T2 bpos
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
i wonder what would happen if all those t2bpo's wer to cough**be destroyed***cough,**cough** dissapear?
9/10 of the T2 ammunitions would disappear from market.
Small drones would cost around 300-500K.
Several T2 modules will disappear as level 4 metaitems are a viable alternative.
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Grim Mercy
Heretic Logistics
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:13:00 -
[41]
Eh. Faction ammo is better anyway.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:13:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 28/08/2008 07:14:15
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 28/08/2008 04:29:30
But manufacturing from the BPO is still cheaper than negative ME BPCs, right?
edit: Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
That is a mystery for me.
That someone is willing to spend the equivalent of 5 years of production at current returns (more probable they will go down than up) to buy a T2 BPO baffle me.
And no, there is not a "secret" building procedure that give better returns.
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Aramova
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Joe
Thread was allready Answered on page 1; theres 20k T2 bpos
I still find that number a little unrealistic unless a vast majority are ammo.
Exactly how many Covert Ops Cloak II bpos did it take to corner the market again? Think 80,000,000 for a cloak.
Perhaps 20k have been seeded at some point, but that doesn't mean they are all in circulation or still in game
________________________________
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Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:19:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Aramova
Originally by: Joe
Thread was allready Answered on page 1; theres 20k T2 bpos
I still find that number a little unrealistic unless a vast majority are ammo.
Exactly how many Covert Ops Cloak II bpos did it take to corner the market again? Think 80,000,000 for a cloak.
Perhaps 20k have been seeded at some point, but that doesn't mean they are all in circulation or still in game
yes, a vast majority are ammo, the 'Original' release was 20 of each ship and module (think 20x cap recharger II etc), and 40 for each type of Ammo bpo, this was later Doubled.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:19:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Tiirae
Some people don't seem to have got the memo yet... T2 BPO owners cannot produce at enough volume to have *ANY* effect on the price of T2 components. Understand? The number of T2 BPC's producing stuff every day absolutely DWARFS the amount of goods a T2 BPO can produce.
If you know how much volume they can produce then clearly you must know how many BPOs are out there. (That was the question which prompted this thread, remember?) So share. How many BPOs are there?
Originally by: Tiirae
Even if one person owned every T2 BPO in the game, it wouldn't make a single ISK of difference to the price of anything.
Unless, of course, they're in my market selling for below my (but not their) cost. After all, they aren't paying for datacores, decryptors, base items etc., they aren't watching a very real percentage of their attempts generate nothing at all, and they can research to perfect ME on their BP, while I'm stuck with what I can get. So no matter how thin a margin I cut, they can always undercut me.
Even if it doesn't ruin the system (and it doesn't) it still seems quite significant to me.
And "they" would be pretty stupid to undercut you lowering market price, as "they" will get more isk and still sell all the production keeping the market price above invention production price for any items with high enough request.
People depressing the marke are generally inventors that say "Oh, item X sell for y, I will get rick selling it" without bothering to calculate the production price, and the people that think that self produced datacores or minerals are free (and don't be mistaken, there are plenty of that people).
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Grim Mercy
Heretic Logistics
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:24:00 -
[46]
A bird in the hand, my friend, is worth two in the bush.
I didn't truly comprehend what that expression meant until I was about 26. Hell, I may still not know what it really means, but I am a slow learner. Anyway.
Undercutting is the best way to move stock, hands down. If I have 200 mil worth of goods that'll take a week to move, I'd rather sell it for 180 mil today, and 175 mil right now.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:31:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Darkwolf
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Unless, of course, they're in my market selling for below my (but not their) cost.
Then you buy their goods, mark them up to your price, and keep on your merry way.
They cannot produce in high enough volumes to outcompete the mass of inventors.
Without getting into the deep silliness of that proposal the fact remains that unless we actually know how many of these BPOs are out there (which is the question under discussion) we don't know what volume "they" can produce. You (and others before you) are claiming to know exactly how much impact an unknown number of t2 BPOs has on the market. You don't. You can't. It's not possible.
Don't get me wrong here, I am making a comfortable margin in the market without a t2 BPO to my name but the t2 BPOs do have an impact. The question is how much.
I know, you love conspiracy theory, they are so romantic, but it is pretty easy to see the effect: look the old prices before invention, compare to the new prices.
All the items that sell at around invention cost or above are items where the BPO owner have little influence on final price.
All the items that sell well under invention cost are items where the BPO holders have the monopoly as the demand is too low to sustain invention.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:37:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Grim Mercy
A bird in the hand, my friend, is worth two in the bush.
I didn't truly comprehend what that expression meant until I was about 26. Hell, I may still not know what it really means, but I am a slow learner. Anyway.
Undercutting is the best way to move stock, hands down. If I have 200 mil worth of goods that'll take a week to move, I'd rather sell it for 180 mil today, and 175 mil right now.
True if you can replenish your stock at a lower cost and production is unlimited.
BPO production is limited, so there is no interest in getting the fast buck to start a new batch, it is more useful to wait some time and sell all the production at the highest price possible.
So you sell at the minimum invention cost (unless you are selling a item where the BPO producers alone will cover all the production) and get maximum bucks for your work.
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Karella Morana
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:09:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
Originally by: Venkul Mul
That is a mystery for me.
That someone is willing to spend the equivalent of 5 years of production at current returns (more probable they will go down than up) to buy a T2 BPO baffle me.
It's not 'spending,' it's investment. There is a difference. The BPO still has value, and on top of that value, it brings income. If you resell it, you get your money back, plus the income you made through ownership.
In that sense, then yes, the BPO is an 'isk printing machine.'
Think of it as a 'share' with a dividend.
Not much of a 'mystery,' tbh.
When you reach a certain level of wealth, what do you do with it? Invest in some dodgy IPO in the Market Discussion forum? A 'poker IPO,' perhaps?
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:40:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
That is a mystery for me.
That someone is willing to spend the equivalent of 5 years of production at current returns (more probable they will go down than up) to buy a T2 BPO baffle me.
Besides the obvious investment aspect raised above, there's another reason:
Due to its random nature and being BPC-based, invention is both slow and suffers a variable cost, which is a no-no under the perspective of mass production.
This is specially true for 0.0 alliances which prefer to maintain whole production chains from ice mining up to assembly arrays without having to add a crapload of BPC-generating labs and send scores of player hunting all kinds of decryptors.
Anyhow, compared to the database, there are very few items worth inventing, and most of them require a multi-billion prior investment along with the operation of labs, which isn't precisely accessible to every player due to isk, time & sp's considerations...
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:46:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Karella Morana
Quote:
Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
Originally by: Venkul Mul
That is a mystery for me.
That someone is willing to spend the equivalent of 5 years of production at current returns (more probable they will go down than up) to buy a T2 BPO baffle me.
It's not 'spending,' it's investment. There is a difference. The BPO still has value, and on top of that value, it brings income. If you resell it, you get your money back, plus the income you made through ownership.
In that sense, then yes, the BPO is an 'isk printing machine.'
Think of it as a 'share' with a dividend.
Not much of a 'mystery,' tbh.
When you reach a certain level of wealth, what do you do with it? Invest in some dodgy IPO in the Market Discussion forum? A 'poker IPO,' perhaps?
Well, you see, "investment" in a BPO is as dodgy as those IPO.
You pay 5 years of gains from production to buy a BPO when:
1) you have no guarantee that the return will stay at the same level as today. It is more probable that the return will be lower than higher in the foreseeable future (datacore production is constantly increasing, so invention cost tend to decrease, lovering the margin between T2 BPO and invented BPC);
2) there are good probability that CCP will implement a system to improve invented BPC ME/PE (originally the T1 BPC ME/PE should have influenced the final ME/PE), not a guarantee, but there is a good chance that will be implemented sooner or later so lowering the advantage even more;
3) you gamble (and it is a huge gamble) hoping that you will be capable of selling the BPO at the same or higher price. It is a "bubble" economy, I have brought it at 10, I will resell at 11, big gains. But there are good chances you will not find someone willing to buy at 10, even less at 11;
4) no guarantee that the BPO will stay in game. At most CCP said that they are not thinking to remove them 1 year ago and that they will give a early warning if the BPO were to be removed, but it will not be a 5 years warning, so again you are gambling that they will stay in game long enough to pay you back or for you to sell them at the price you have paid.
Considering all the above, 5 years of production as a cost for the BPO is a too high price in my opinion.
I would be willing to gamble with a cost of around 1-2 years of production return, as almost certainly T2 BPO, if removed, would be exchanged for high run BPC, not with a 5+ years return.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Semkhet
Besides the obvious investment aspect raised above, there's another reason:
Due to its random nature and being BPC-based, invention is both slow and suffers a variable cost, which is a no-no under the perspective of mass production.
This is specially true for 0.0 alliances which prefer to maintain whole production chains from ice mining up to assembly arrays without having to add a crapload of BPC-generating labs and send scores of player hunting all kinds of decryptors.
Anyhow, compared to the database, there are very few items worth inventing, and most of them require a multi-billion prior investment along with the operation of labs, which isn't precisely accessible to every player due to isk, time & sp's considerations...
LOL. When done in large number invention is extremely reliable. Yes, if you try to invent 1 marauder today, 1 HAC tomorrow, your results will be random, when you try 10 marauders for 10 times you are almost guaranteed you will have at most 1-2 BPC more or less than the average result. Do that on a alliance wide project and you will have a very constant result.
An no, there are plenty of modules that will pay for invention starting cost while requiring only some hundred of millions as starting capital.
Thinking that only ships are worth inventing is the principal error for inventors.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 09:05:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 28/08/2008 09:07:10
Edited by: Gamesguy on 28/08/2008 09:06:22
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Semkhet
Besides the obvious investment aspect raised above, there's another reason:
Due to its random nature and being BPC-based, invention is both slow and suffers a variable cost, which is a no-no under the perspective of mass production.
This is specially true for 0.0 alliances which prefer to maintain whole production chains from ice mining up to assembly arrays without having to add a crapload of BPC-generating labs and send scores of player hunting all kinds of decryptors.
Anyhow, compared to the database, there are very few items worth inventing, and most of them require a multi-billion prior investment along with the operation of labs, which isn't precisely accessible to every player due to isk, time & sp's considerations...
LOL. When done in large number invention is extremely reliable. Yes, if you try to invent 1 marauder today, 1 HAC tomorrow, your results will be random, when you try 10 marauders for 10 times you are almost guaranteed you will have at most 1-2 BPC more or less than the average result. Do that on a alliance wide project and you will have a very constant result.
An no, there are plenty of modules that will pay for invention starting cost while requiring only some hundred of millions as starting capital.
Thinking that only ships are worth inventing is the principal error for inventors.
Pretty much this, thats why ships like jump freighters still have high profit. Because it requires a large starting capital so you can make numerous atttempts and let the law of large numbers kick into effect.
With insufficient capital you run the very real risk of running into a streak of bad luck and going broke.
This is also why module invention tend to be the safest. Capital investment for each attempt is low, so you can generate a large number of attempts.
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Tuleingel
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Posted - 2008.08.28 09:08:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Joe
Thread was allready Answered on page 1; theres 20k T2 bpos
Incorrect. When they 'doubled' BPO's in lottery before getting rid of lottery there were numbers mentioned somewhere by dev. 40 prints per ammo, 20 for modules, 10 for ships added. Might be off by few prints as I type by memory, but magnitudes were those. All together it is considerably under 20k BPO's. All together perhaps some 3000 - 4000 prints including ammo ones.
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ZW Dewitt
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Posted - 2008.08.28 09:17:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Karella Morana
It's not 'spending,' it's investment. There is a difference. The BPO still has value, and on top of that value, it brings income. If you resell it, you get your money back, plus the income you made through ownership.
In that sense, then yes, the BPO is an 'isk printing machine.'
In that sense, so is EVERY BPO in game, T2 or not.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.28 09:21:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 28/08/2008 09:21:22
Originally by: Gamesguy
Edited by: Gamesguy on 28/08/2008 09:07:10
Edited by: Gamesguy on 28/08/2008 09:06:22
Originally by: Venkul Mul
LOL. When done in large number invention is extremely reliable. Yes, if you try to invent 1 marauder today, 1 HAC tomorrow, your results will be random, when you try 10 marauders for 10 times you are almost guaranteed you will have at most 1-2 BPC more or less than the average result. Do that on a alliance wide project and you will have a very constant result.
An no, there are plenty of modules that will pay for invention starting cost while requiring only some hundred of millions as starting capital.
Thinking that only ships are worth inventing is the principal error for inventors.
Pretty much this, thats why ships like jump freighters still have high profit. Because it requires a large starting capital so you can make numerous atttempts and let the law of large numbers kick into effect.
With insufficient capital you run the very real risk of running into a streak of bad luck and going broke.
This is also why module invention tend to be the safest. Capital investment for each attempt is low, so you can generate a large number of attempts.
Run for the hills, Gamesguy agreed with me. The ski will fall.
Sorry but I think it is the first time we have the same opinion.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 09:42:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Run for the hills, Gamesguy agreed with me. The ski will fall.
Sorry but I think it is the first time we have the same opinion.
I stand by what I said, suicide ganking is an isk farming activity and I still think its good for the game.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Ledoux Holdings
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Posted - 2008.08.28 09:44:00 -
[58]
I am definitely of two minds about T2 BPOs, for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. Here are my thoughts, in no particular order:
It's a bit unfair that people who got lucky back during the lottery's heyday have a guaranteed ISK printing factory while inventors have to commit to doing more work for less money (per factory slot). (I am, of course, referring to BPOs for popular ships and modules. Less popular BPOs are another matter).
An inventor can have a higher ISK per day profit inventing and selling a popular item than they could if they only produced from a BPO.
Owners of popular BPOs are capable of using the profits gained from their BPO to buy more BPOs, increasing their profits to a degree that inventors can never match.
However, inventors (or mission runners, etc) could do that, too. It just takes longer for them to get that first BPO.
It's much easier for current holders of good BPOs to collect more of them, which leads to massive concentration of wealth.
Many T2 BPOs aren't incredibly profitable and if they disappeared, many T2 items would not be available on the market (because they wouldn't be profitable to invent.)
The existence of T2 BPOs holds prices down for many items. However, this also enables the BPO holders to slash their sale prices to a point where they still make a nice profit, but inventors cannot compete.
Even if T2 BPOs were phased out, it wouldn't change the fact that people who have held profitable BPOs for years are fantastically wealthy.
T2 BPO holders (or anyone who has a lot of ISK and not a lot to spend it on) often function as ISK sinks, since a large percentage of what they make stays in their wallet (exceptions exist. see next point). If they lose their income streams, they're going to start spending that money, which turns them into de facto ISK faucets.
Some good T2 BPOs are held by alliances which use the money generated from them to fund their operations. This could give these alliances a substantial advantage over those who have to rely on invention. (I'm assuming that the income from T2 BPOs rivals the income from 0.0 moon mining. This is quite possibly a mistaken assumption.)
Anyway, I could go on and on, even though I've only ever owned 1 T2 BPO (and it was crappy) and I don't have all of the facts. So I can easily imagine how much of a mess this is for CCP to unravel. The status quo is unfair to a lot of people. Changing the status quo would also be unfair to a lot of people.
If it were up to me (and I'm really glad that it isn't), I'd probably announce that T2 BPOs are going to be phased out 6 months to 1 year in advance. Then, they would be converted to extremely long-running BPOs (which would give them about 1 year's worth of nonstop production). As the former BPOs are phased out, I would increase average ME/PE rates on invented BPCs so that about the same number of T2 ships/modules/ammo could be produced with the same average number of raw materials available (ie, moon-mined goods).
At the end of this process, competition would ensure that most goods cost about what they do now (although prices would be likely to fluctuate more). People who held good T2 BPOs for a long time will still be rich. People who bought them before the announcement would probably recoup their investment. People who bought them after the announcement would probably recoup their investment (since they'll be likely to pay less).
_
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coeathal vega
Gallente
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 10:02:00 -
[59]
its true, we have them all! including the unreleased t2 titan bpo! oh shi*
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.28 10:19:00 -
[60]
Originally by: ZW Dewitt
Originally by: Karella Morana
It's not 'spending,' it's investment. There is a difference. The BPO still has value, and on top of that value, it brings income. If you resell it, you get your money back, plus the income you made through ownership.
In that sense, then yes, the BPO is an 'isk printing machine.'
In that sense, so is EVERY BPO in game, T2 or not.
But now there is no way to get a new T2 BPO; if lottery continued along with invention and added some BPOs every 3 months or so ppl would have a choice: cash in RPs for datacores and build T2 with invention or accumulate RPs and hope to get a BPO someday.
_____________
I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 10:30:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
I am definitely of two minds about T2 BPOs, for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. Here are my thoughts, in no particular order:
It's a bit unfair that people who got lucky back during the lottery's heyday have a guaranteed ISK printing factory while inventors have to commit to doing more work for less money (per factory slot). (I am, of course, referring to BPOs for popular ships and modules. Less popular BPOs are another matter).
An inventor can have a higher ISK per day profit inventing and selling a popular item than they could if they only produced from a BPO.
Owners of popular BPOs are capable of using the profits gained from their BPO to buy more BPOs, increasing their profits to a degree that inventors can never match.
However, inventors (or mission runners, etc) could do that, too. It just takes longer for them to get that first BPO.
It's much easier for current holders of good BPOs to collect more of them, which leads to massive concentration of wealth.
Many T2 BPOs aren't incredibly profitable and if they disappeared, many T2 items would not be available on the market (because they wouldn't be profitable to invent.)
The existence of T2 BPOs holds prices down for many items. However, this also enables the BPO holders to slash their sale prices to a point where they still make a nice profit, but inventors cannot compete.
Even if T2 BPOs were phased out, it wouldn't change the fact that people who have held profitable BPOs for years are fantastically wealthy.
T2 BPO holders (or anyone who has a lot of ISK and not a lot to spend it on) often function as ISK sinks, since a large percentage of what they make stays in their wallet (exceptions exist. see next point). If they lose their income streams, they're going to start spending that money, which turns them into de facto ISK faucets.
Some good T2 BPOs are held by alliances which use the money generated from them to fund their operations. This could give these alliances a substantial advantage over those who have to rely on invention. (I'm assuming that the income from T2 BPOs rivals the income from 0.0 moon mining. This is quite possibly a mistaken assumption.)
Anyway, I could go on and on, even though I've only ever owned 1 T2 BPO (and it was crappy) and I don't have all of the facts. So I can easily imagine how much of a mess this is for CCP to unravel. The status quo is unfair to a lot of people. Changing the status quo would also be unfair to a lot of people.
If it were up to me (and I'm really glad that it isn't), I'd probably announce that T2 BPOs are going to be phased out 6 months to 1 year in advance. Then, they would be converted to extremely long-running BPOs (which would give them about 1 year's worth of nonstop production). As the former BPOs are phased out, I would increase average ME/PE rates on invented BPCs so that about the same number of T2 ships/modules/ammo could be produced with the same average number of raw materials available (ie, moon-mined goods).
At the end of this process, competition would ensure that most goods cost about what they do now (although prices would be likely to fluctuate more). People who held good T2 BPOs for a long time will still be rich. People who bought them before the announcement would probably recoup their investment. People who bought them after the announcement would probably recoup their investment (since they'll be likely to pay less).
Actually, invention is a far bigger boon to old 0.0 alliances than their BPO stockpiles.
Go look up the price history of dysprosium/promethium. Moon income is pretty much the sole income for 0.0 alliance these days, and invention is what made those two moon minerals rise to the insane price they are at now.
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Silver Night
Caldari
Naqam
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 10:40:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Silver Night on 28/08/2008 10:45:01
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
Text which takes me near the character limit
A couple of points, and no to the trolls (not you Devilish) I don't own any Tech 2 BPOs:
1) Build times: This is one of the main things people miss. Tech 2 BPOs don't determine market price or hold it down significantly because there just aren't enough of them and tech 2 items have long build times.
2) Many, perhaps the majority of Tech 2 BPOs were sold off after people won them. This means that most of the current owners weren't 'lucky'. They made an investment in capital. Oftentimes the profit on the item at the time that the BPO was purchased dictated a year or more before the buyer would make a profit. With current prices, which are much lower in most cases, some BPO owners are looking at years to recoup their investment.
3) The fact of the matter is that invention and supplies of moon minerals determine the price of tech 2 items and BPO holders are just along for the ride. They might be able to make a higher per-item profit, but they are unable to expand their operations to any degree. If you have a BPO and produce 1 Crow at a time with 1 million profit, are you better off than the guy who can produce 20 at a time for 5 total million profit? Especially if you paid 20 billion for that Crow BPO?
Edited for clarity
--------------
The Clown Man.
GLS Mr. State
Caldari Patriot.
Sansha's Nation Supporter
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Ledoux Holdings
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Posted - 2008.08.28 10:51:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Devilish Ledoux on 28/08/2008 10:53:53
Originally by: Silver Night
Good points.
All of your arguments are valid (it's also nice to know that moons are the real determinant in pricing).
As an inventor myself, I know that I make more profit making and selling one product than someone who owns the BPO of the same product. It's also true that I can switch my production focus based on shifting profit margins (something a BPO holder can't do). However, it takes 11 lines of production (in my case, 26 and growing) to do this. A T2 BPO holder can make their profits using only 1 line of production per BPO. They could even invent the same item (or different ones) and compete there, as well.
I don't know how many owners of good T2 BPOs have only the one, and how many use the profits from the one to collect more and more over time (another gap in my knowledge). However, it would seem to me that, over time, a single good BPO can provide the funds to generate larger and larger profits over time, while invention provides steady (and in some cases, declining) real profits.
_
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 10:56:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Grim Mercy
Eh. Faction ammo is better anyway.
Um. Faction < Spike.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Silver Night
Caldari
Naqam
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 10:57:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Silver Night on 28/08/2008 11:00:36
Well, there is obviously an advantage to the BPO. But the thing is, the advantage is really fairly marginal, and comes at a huge cost. How many production lines could you set up for the cost of a single BPO? A tech 2 BPO is at best a fairly small advantage, like paying billions upon billions to have a single more efficient production line, right?
Plus, the risk, which you mention. Lets say you bought a Cap 2 BPO, and then invention came out. Or a Falcon BPO and they nerf ECM. Vagabond BPO and nanos are nerfed. That flexibility to invention is a real advantage, because you can leverage the FotM crazes.
Edit: I think it is also a misconception that a Tech 2 BPO is the easiest way to more Tech 2 BPOs. While you can certainly use your profits that way, there are many activities which are much higher profit. Moon mining for example, or trading (if you are good at it). You can do that and then get a BPO not because it is highly profitable, but because it is a low maintenance way of bringing in ISK comparatively. People do the same thing with capital ship and cap ship component BPOs, copying them mostly. Tech 2 BPOs simply aren't that high profit.
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The Clown Man.
GLS Mr. State
Caldari Patriot.
Sansha's Nation Supporter
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Neesa Corrinne
Dark Destiny Inc.
Send More Paramedics
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Posted - 2008.08.28 12:35:00 -
[66]
People who keep spewing this BS that T2 BPO's aren't more profitable than invention are so far from the truth that I don't think they've ever invented at all.
Invention does not produce a good ME BPC unless you sped big bucks or hours farming plexes to get the items you need to get a decent ME, and even then you are sacrificing how many runs your BPC is for a slightly better ME.
T2 BPO owners, can research them for better ME, never have to buy anything to make them better and never have a chance of failure at producing a BPC.
Therefore, when they do produce a BPC and make the ships/modules from them, they have already saved so much more ISK than the inventors that they can afford to undercut the inventors and still profit.
I know this cause I ran a small invention outfit for a couple of months, and breaking even was about the best I could do without owning a few top of the line moons, which I don't.
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Noir Seroc
Caldari
Sectron
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Posted - 2008.08.28 13:40:00 -
[67]
Yupp evil T2 bpo holders, first they form cartels to milk the rest of the players out of their hard earned isk and now they are suppressing honest inventors, cheating em out of their deserved profits  !
As an owner of a few T2 bpo`s I would like to protest that nobody invited me into one of those cartels pre-invention. Other T2 bpo holders must have been left uninvited as well, otherwise I can`t explain why every now and then somebody was underbidding me in steps of half a mil for EANM II`s back when the module was still worth a few mil for example ū no problem though, back then you just bought em up or traders did and resold em.
All kidding aside, truth is with invention there are a lot more out there which did and do senseless undercutting, in hope of selling their stuff fast. But usually not fast enough, so other traders/inventors/bpo builders undercut by .01 isk or more.
In addition nobody will clean the market by buying heaps of cheap T2 Gear (unless it`s idiotically cheap, eg near buy orders). Hardly any ppl out there with lotsa cash & foolish enough to buy into a still declining T2 market, where inventors could swarm one in relative short time.
Rinse and repeat and you have the answer why we (inventors & T2 bpo holders) managed to drop T2 prices so fast, shortly above inventors production cost in some instances.
Think I`m talking nonsense, believe that without those pesky T2 bpo holders you could make a fortune in a short period with invention? Nothing holding you back, go ahead and invent stuff for which there are no T2 bpo`s ingame, make billions and buy T2 bpo`s ą
------
Oh and before I get blamed not knowing anything bout invention, did plenty of it while it was still worth my time, but same goes for production from my unfair ohsopwnish t2 bpo`s, those are collecting dust now until we will hit a shortage on datacores or something.
And in my case it`s not the manufacturing/inventing itself which is tiresome, it`s the constant tracking of the market to adjust prices in order to sell anything at all which made it unprofitable in comparison to time spend.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari
Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.08.28 13:43:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 28/08/2008 04:29:30
But manufacturing from the BPO is still cheaper than negative ME BPCs, right?
edit: Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
IT MUST BE ENVY!!!!!!!
HAHAHAH......i had to say it,hopefully before someone actually SERIOUSLY said it.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.08.28 13:56:00 -
[69]
TBH I'd rather see moons reworked.
-
DesuSigs |
Noir Seroc
Caldari
Sectron
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Posted - 2008.08.28 14:44:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 28/08/2008 04:29:30
But manufacturing from the BPO is still cheaper than negative ME BPCs, right?
edit: Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
WOW missed that one the 1st time ... know any buyers @40bn?
WTS Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II bpo for 40bn, drop me a mail ingame.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.28 16:25:00 -
[71]
Does anyone hold an answer to the ORIGINAL questions of this thread?
 How many T2 BPO's were put in the game total?
How many of each type?
Will CCP humor us and do an inventory on how many are left?
New Questions
Will there be a T3 in our future?
How will these be distributed?
Will CCP post publicly what the criteria will be to be a part of the lottery?
These are my burning questions. Over the years I am positive that many of the T2 BPO's have been lost due to players leaving EvE, destroyed or simply trashed by mistake.
If these questions can be answered it will give CCP some insight of the T2 Market. If the information is posted publicly I am sure everyone would be surprised with the results.
The issue here is not who has them, who wants them or ENVY. This is a fact finding thread.
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diabolic clone
Amarr
Anomaly Collective
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:52:00 -
[72]
I do not see how the affor mentioned initial investment of a BPO matters given the frequency, ease, non-counterable, low risk activities of scamming, GTC and character sales.
An honest player ligitimately playing for isk to buy a BPO is more of an exception than employed meta tactics and obsceres the effort put into getting the item and how long it takes them to recoup the price they payed for it, if they made a bad investment sucks for them they knew what they were getting themselves into buyting the item if they wanted to make more profit off it than they spent.
T2 BPO's are cool for the people that have them and whoever buys from them, it's nice they are around at any rate.
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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 01:57:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Noir Seroc
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 28/08/2008 04:29:30
But manufacturing from the BPO is still cheaper than negative ME BPCs, right?
edit: Why else would someone still be willing to spend 40bn on an EANM2 BPO?
WOW missed that one the 1st time ... know any buyers @40bn?
WTS Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II bpo for 40bn, drop me a mail ingame.
Please get in touch with Ancorehraq sis from this thread. where he posted the following.
Originally by: Ancorehraq sis
If, for some reason, Black Steel fails at life *and* you can wait two days for me to collect the money, I'll take it at buyout :)
My commission is a mere 1%, and can be transferred to my wallet at any stage. 
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Sophia Germain
Fluxion
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Posted - 2008.08.29 07:47:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Sophia Germain on 29/08/2008 07:49:38
I'm going to put some thoughts of mine about this issue into words as honestly as possible.
I've been in Eve since 2003, and have won 4 T2 ship BPOs through the lottery. Ever since I got the first BPO, I never had to mine, rat or do missions again for ISK, and I've also been able to pay for my multiple accounts with GTCs that I bought with ISK ever since GTCs first came into the game. By playing smart and with a lot of patience (not selling the BPOs right away but instead producing from them for years), I've managed to become quite wealthy. Lots of resellers are still making money from the BPOs by buying them cheap and reselling them for large profits. This behavior, from the point of view of the original seller, is possibly fueled by the fear of T2 BPOs disappearing from the game.
Do I feel the BPOs give me an unfair advantage compared to new players? Yes, they most definitely do. They are a major stepping stone for wealth, the value of which seems only to increase judging by the majority of recent T2 BPO sales prices. The situation where one invests the profit of several years into a T2 BPO might be different, but for those of us who got BPOs from the lottery, it's always been a win-win -situation. Fortunately for me, my luck eliminated the need for any grinding in my gaming, and I can go on playing for years without doing a thing to raise more ISK.
This is just my perspective on how I see things. It's not meant as an insult or a showoff post, but rather as a reflection of how I see T2 BPOs have affected my gaming experience. It will be interesting to see how and if CCP decide to change T2 BPOs somehow. Time will tell, but until then, some of them still are a major cash cow for the fortunate few.
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Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.29 17:44:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 29/08/2008 17:45:16
Originally by: Sophia Germain
Edited by: Sophia Germain on 29/08/2008 07:49:38
I'm going to put some thoughts of mine about this issue into words as honestly as possible.
I've been in Eve since 2003, and have won 4 T2 ship BPOs through the lottery. Ever since I got the first BPO, I never had to mine, rat or do missions again for ISK, and I've also been able to pay for my multiple accounts with GTCs that I bought with ISK ever since GTCs first came into the game. By playing smart and with a lot of patience (not selling the BPOs right away but instead producing from them for years), I've managed to become quite wealthy. Lots of resellers are still making money from the BPOs by buying them cheap and reselling them for large profits. This behavior, from the point of view of the original seller, is possibly fueled by the fear of T2 BPOs disappearing from the game.
Do I feel the BPOs give me an unfair advantage compared to new players? Yes, they most definitely do. They are a major stepping stone for wealth, the value of which seems only to increase judging by the majority of recent T2 BPO sales prices. The situation where one invests the profit of several years into a T2 BPO might be different, but for those of us who got BPOs from the lottery, it's always been a win-win -situation. Fortunately for me, my luck eliminated the need for any grinding in my gaming, and I can go on playing for years without doing a thing to raise more ISK.
This is just my perspective on how I see things. It's not meant as an insult or a showoff post, but rather as a reflection of how I see T2 BPOs have affected my gaming experience. It will be interesting to see how and if CCP decide to change T2 BPOs somehow. Time will tell, but until then, some of them still are a major cash cow for the fortunate few.
Thank you for the honest and objectiveness of your experience with T2 BPO's.
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Syringe
Morphine Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.29 17:55:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Syringe on 29/08/2008 17:55:58
Why does this even an issue?
If you were around back in the day and you happened to land a t2 BPO, fine - keep it, those things were friggin hard to get. Before invention, they were awesome cause you could jack up the price to like 60000% and people HAD to pay it cause there was not really any competition (I think there was what, one t2 cap recharger BPO running production?). With invention, it's just kind of a convenient method for the people that got those BPOs way back (i.e. have paid more in subscription fees that you *wink wink*) to run a production line.
Short version: stfu
//no, I don't own any t2 BPOs
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War isn't the answer. However, the objective isn't to provide answers rather than eliminate the question. |
TerrorBaBy
Nearly Feared
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:01:00 -
[77]
Edited by: TerrorBaBy on 29/08/2008 18:03:53
Originally by: mineforman
CCP will never release data about that because I bet the lion share of Bpo2 are in BOB's hands!
Actually, an old corp of mine (not in BoB) had a collection of over 130 T2 BPOs including several command ships and HACs, a single recon and a multitude of modules. Most were won by members and the proceeds were used to buy more for the corp whilst providing base price T2 ships for members.
(No, not a previous corp on this character, I'm not that stupid...).
This was pre-invention.
_______________
Originally by: Constance Harme
It's like willfully getting into a car full of strangers and then being driven out to the woods and being shot.
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malfoy
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:03:00 -
[78]
Edited by: malfoy on 29/08/2008 18:05:25
Edited by: malfoy on 29/08/2008 18:04:07
wtb a t2 bpo :) rofl im back from four years and i was right. sad.
edit. people were hand picked imo.
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Zey Nadar
Gallente
Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem
Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:14:00 -
[79]
There are lot of points that are fine and valid in this thread, but pretty much all are beside my point. If CCP took it upon themselves to remove something that had no effect on the game whatsoever (highsec capitals) on the basis that nobody else could get those things, then they should finish the list and remove T2 BPOs. Period. If it rattles eve market then go ahead. Id like some of that.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:45:00 -
[80]
Quote:
If CCP took it upon themselves to remove something that had no effect on the game whatsoever (highsec capitals) on the basis that nobody else could get those things, then they should finish the list and remove T2 BPOs. Period.
You realise they reversed that and gave them back ?
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:52:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Rimsa Orion
Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 29/08/2008 17:45:16
Originally by: Sophia Germain
Edited by: Sophia Germain on 29/08/2008 07:49:38
I'm going to put some thoughts of mine about this issue into words as honestly as possible.
I've been in Eve since 2003, and have won 4 T2 ship BPOs through the lottery. Ever since I got the first BPO, I never had to mine, rat or do missions again for ISK, and I've also been able to pay for my multiple accounts with GTCs that I bought with ISK ever since GTCs first came into the game. By playing smart and with a lot of patience (not selling the BPOs right away but instead producing from them for years), I've managed to become quite wealthy. Lots of resellers are still making money from the BPOs by buying them cheap and reselling them for large profits. This behavior, from the point of view of the original seller, is possibly fueled by the fear of T2 BPOs disappearing from the game.
Do I feel the BPOs give me an unfair advantage compared to new players? Yes, they most definitely do. They are a major stepping stone for wealth, the value of which seems only to increase judging by the majority of recent T2 BPO sales prices. The situation where one invests the profit of several years into a T2 BPO might be different, but for those of us who got BPOs from the lottery, it's always been a win-win -situation. Fortunately for me, my luck eliminated the need for any grinding in my gaming, and I can go on playing for years without doing a thing to raise more ISK.
This is just my perspective on how I see things. It's not meant as an insult or a showoff post, but rather as a reflection of how I see T2 BPOs have affected my gaming experience. It will be interesting to see how and if CCP decide to change T2 BPOs somehow. Time will tell, but until then, some of them still are a major cash cow for the fortunate few.
Thank you for the honest and objectiveness of your experience with T2 BPO's.
I don't disagree, pre-invention T2 BPOs were a huge money tap. Now they are not, you will make far more inventing each month if you are smart about it then you will with the most valuable BPO out there.
There are a TON of things in this game that have led to players gaining isk with relative ease. T2 BPOs pre-invention, 10/10 complex's, dysprosium moons etc. The isk/effort is ridiculously large. The difference is that once the damage is done, it's done. You don't remove the advantage without back-dating all the isk and removing that too. Most of the original T2 BPO owners sold their BPOs and you're left with a heap of people that might have bought a BPO for 70 billion hard earned isk and have made back 5-6 billion so far. What you're left with is the reverse, people that did all the work so that others don't have to who bought things with a 5-10 year payback and the only hope of it being a sane decision is that the asset itself would appreciate.
Quote:
Will there be a T3 in our future?
Yes.
Quote:
How will these be distributed?
No BPOs, invention ONLY !
Quote:
Will CCP post publicly what the criteria will be to be a part of the lottery?
No lottery, invention ONLY !
Quote:
I know this cause I ran a small invention outfit for a couple of months, and breaking even was about the best I could do
I have made over 40 billion isk from invention \o/ 4b of that this month. If you could only break even then you were doing it wrong, you can't just invent 'anything' and expect to make a profit, you have to calculate out what all your costs are going to be vs what the likely sale price is likely to be and then invent. It is not something you can do with one product forever, where the profit is changes week to week, it requires SKILL. A T2 BPO owner can't even close to compete because they can't change the item they are making, so if the profit on their item falls, they will lose isk. Inventing I can just switch to the 'new' best item. 
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Gort
Storm Guard Elite
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Posted - 2008.08.29 20:17:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Gort on 29/08/2008 20:18:14
The day I finally leave this game will be the day I read one whine too many and realize it will never end.
Don't tell me. That day's not here yet and I'm still whistling past the graveyard.
There are some very thoughtful and well-informed people commenting here, scattered amongst the idiot whiners.
Edit: It's a game, stupid.
G
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When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.29 21:32:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Grim Mercy
Eh. Faction ammo is better anyway.
Um. Faction < Spike.
Spike = ranged ammo = has purpose, some drawback for extra ability.
Javelin = high damage ammo (16.7% more than antimatter) + drawbacks
Faction Antimatter = high damage (15% more than standard antimatter) + no drawback
Thus you may say Javelin < Faction < Spike (though in reality spike and faction will be used for different situations) The faction will be a direct replacement for Javelin.
The same is true for all T2 ammo types, there is a semi useful range one which is worth using, and a high damage one which always had drawbacks making it a debatable item to use before, but now faction ammo is infinitly available, it means it's definitely not worth using. Not worth using = low demand = prices fall below invention cost. If it was worth using it'd be worth inventing.
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