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ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
441
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Consider the four ships we have now. Tengu, Proteus, Loki and Legion. Each one, if fitted properly, is perfectly capable of soloing a small gang of battleships and battlecruisers (source: Garmon). They are also perfectly capable of raking in ISK tanking sanctums alone - their combination of small sig radius, relatively high speed and fubar tank makes them excellent damage sponges.
Now consider this: A tech 3 battleship. We currently have tech 3 cruisers capable of tanking more damage than a battleship can - my Proteus can even be active tanked to half the tank of my Thanatos. Traditionally, cruisers do about a third of the tank/dps of a battleship. Do you want to make it so we have ships capable of soloing capitals? While I admit the hilarity/tear value of that would be very high, it makes them completely unbeatable in things such as subcapital warfare.
Tech 3 frigates - would you put around a billion isk in a frigate hull?
As for battlecruisers, well, they already fill the role of Command Ships and stupid DPS dealers in the form of the new Tier 3 ships.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1219
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree - T3 ships are imbalanced as they are - it will be a lot worse on the extreme ends of ship sizes.
You thought pre-nerf Dramiels were bad and killed frig pvp? Wait for T3 frigs. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
441
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:I agree - T3 ships are imbalanced as they are - it will be a lot worse on the extreme ends of ship sizes.
You thought pre-nerf Dramiels were bad and killed frig pvp? Wait for T3 frigs.
Precisely - that and I currently own four T3s and any change in the exclusivity in T3 ships would probably make their value plummet.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Romulus Activus
Tokos Securities M E T H O D
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
T3 cruisers need to be nerfed so that they are roughly only 25% more effective then a tier 2 bc or do something like divide thier tank and dps bonuses in half. T3 frigs and bs can have a place in eve as long as they are balanced. With new modules coming out their should be room for ccp to change things up. |
Obsidian Dagger
Nitrus Nine
36
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
If there are T3 varients of the main classes of ships, then it will be balanced enough. Only people still flying PVP fleets in antique T1/T2 ships will be disadvantaged, obviously. |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
442
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Romulus Activus wrote:T3 cruisers need to be nerfed so that they are roughly only 25% more effective then a tier 2 bc or do something like divide thier tank and dps bonuses in half. T3 frigs and bs can have a place in eve as long as they are balanced. With new modules coming out their should be room for ccp to change things up.
Err, yeah, because they only cost 25% more than a tier 2 BC as well...
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Romulus Activus
Tokos Securities M E T H O D
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Romulus Activus wrote:T3 cruisers need to be nerfed so that they are roughly only 25% more effective then a tier 2 bc or do something like divide thier tank and dps bonuses in half. T3 frigs and bs can have a place in eve as long as they are balanced. With new modules coming out their should be room for ccp to change things up. Err, yeah, because they only cost 25% more than a tier 2 BC as well...
Well their is the or option and besides they cost roughly 10x more so 25% is not that big a bonus compared to what you have to pay and the skills required to fly the t3. |
Rimase
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
TECH2 will be intended to truly Specialize above TECH3, which is Generalized. This is awesome.
Just sayin'. Sorry. <3 |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
442
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Romulus Activus wrote: Well their is the or option and besides they cost roughly 10x more so 25% is not that big a bonus compared to what you have to pay and the skills required to fly the t3.
You can get in a T3 pretty quickly...
I don't understand. Are you saying you've now U-turned on your point that 25% is a bad idea or what?
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Romulus Activus
Tokos Securities M E T H O D
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would be comfortable with them at the most being 25% more effective then a tier 2 bc or having their bonuses halved to make them less elite. |
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ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
443
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Romulus Activus wrote:I would be comfortable with them at the most being 25% more effective then a tier 2 bc or having their bonuses halved to make them less elite.
Tell me where the tech 3 touched your ratting battleship on the dummy
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Romulus Activus
Tokos Securities M E T H O D
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Romulus Activus wrote:I would be comfortable with them at the most being 25% more effective then a tier 2 bc or having their bonuses halved to make them less elite. Tell me where the tech 3 touched your ratting battleship on the dummy
I use a t3 for ratting so i gues it touched my entire capsule |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
443
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Posted - 2012.03.24 18:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Romulus Activus wrote:I use a t3 for ratting so i gues it touched my entire capsule
So why do you want to reduce damage? xD
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Romulus Activus
Tokos Securities M E T H O D
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 19:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Romulus Activus wrote:I use a t3 for ratting so i gues it touched my entire capsule So why do you want to reduce damage? xD
Because I do think they are op and they are not all being used evenly. Tengu comprises 60% of all t3 acording to CCP. This number should be much lower. Nerfing and rebalancing t3 would be a good way for ccp to fix t3 cruisers and enable them to make t3 frigs and bs if they want. |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
443
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Posted - 2012.03.24 19:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Romulus Activus wrote:. Tengu comprises 60% of all t3 acording to CCP.
That is because tengus are the perfect ships for ratting bots - you can get in one with a fubar tank and decent DPS pretty quickly. Every Tech 3 fits a perfect niche, and every Tech 3 is fine as is.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
259
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 19:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Romulus Activus wrote:ElQuirko wrote:Romulus Activus wrote:I use a t3 for ratting so i gues it touched my entire capsule So why do you want to reduce damage? xD Because I do think they are op and they are not all being used evenly. Tengu comprises 60% of all t3 acording to CCP. This number should be much lower. Nerfing and rebalancing t3 would be a good way for ccp to fix t3 cruisers and enable them to make t3 frigs and bs if they want.
Thats because missiles are the best PvE option of any race.
Most Tengu's sit in highsec blitzing level 4's, or nullsec farming havens. Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha-á Senior Recruiter |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
387
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 19:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Battlecruisers as command ships is like using a mortar round for a doorstop. Command ships should be role specific like the Noctus. Battlecruisers should get a decent T2 treatment, and yes, all classes T3. Move that caliber of combat out where the supposed big dogs roam. What's absurd are Titans and Capitals. For what? I prefer to see you guys lay them out on a table with a yardstick. (Let's us know why we no love you long time GIs.)
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
417
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 20:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
t3 shouldn't be better then t2, it should just have more customization. the problem is t3 ships atm are awesome. a t3 cruiser should be a jack of all trades and master of none. |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
445
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 20:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:t3 shouldn't be better then t2, it should just have more customization. the problem is t3 ships atm are awesome. a t3 cruiser should be a jack of all trades and master of none.
Herping yourDerp wrote:t3 shouldn't be better then t2
and I suppose T2 shouldn't be better than T1?
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Jett0
Team Kitty Choke Slam
86
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 20:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
I see t3 frigates as a "baby's first tengu." Super expensive, and not as good as the t2s in their respective areas. Occasionally plays sober |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
602
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 20:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Consider the four ships we have now. Tengu, Proteus, Loki and Legion. Each one, if fitted properly, is perfectly capable of soloing a small gang of battleships and battlecruisers (source: Garmon). They are also perfectly capable of raking in ISK tanking sanctums alone - their combination of small sig radius, relatively high speed and fubar tank makes them excellent damage sponges.
Now consider this: A tech 3 battleship. We currently have tech 3 cruisers capable of tanking more damage than a battleship can - my Proteus can even be active tanked to half the tank of my Thanatos. Traditionally, cruisers do about a third of the tank/dps of a battleship. Do you want to make it so we have ships capable of soloing capitals? While I admit the hilarity/tear value of that would be very high, it makes them completely unbeatable in things such as subcapital warfare.
OH GOD DON'T EVER CHANGE THE HIERARCHY OF INTERNET SPACE SHIPS CHANGE IS BAD.
No its not, change is good, it keeps the game fresh, so yes, I would, and people have been asking for a sub cap, cap killing ship for a very long time.
The upcoming titan nerf thats meant to stop Titans from killing sub caps is going to fail at doing that, but make caps much harder to kill when found repping towers or rring on station undocks. Something that kills them might be nice.
And yea, your proteus can tank half of what a thanny does, while doing less DPS than an Enyo while doing that.
Stop your wild exaggerations and get a grip.
ElQuirko wrote:Tech 3 frigates - would you put around a billion isk in a frigate hull?
Yes, frequently, between faction fitting and implants I often run well over a billion on my frigates, hth. |
Mimiru Minahiro
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 20:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
I heard a rumor that the words T3 and Destroyer were used in conjunction in one of the fanfest presentations. Can anyone confirm this? |
Taria A'nor
Department of Social Security The Welfare State
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 20:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mimiru Minahiro wrote:I heard a rumor that the words T3 and Destroyer were used in conjunction in one of the fanfest presentations. Can anyone confirm this?
*joins RVB* |
Selinate
695
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
I'm not sure about this. Yes, the benefits of T3 ships are amazing, but you have to consider the huge drawbacks also.
A) Skill point loss when destroyed. Granted, it's not always *too* much, but 4-5 days worth of skill training on a T3 skill to get it back up can potentially put that T3 fit that you love out of commission for that time period.
B) HUGE isk loss compared to most other ships, especially when considered within it's own ship class.
Also, T3's are rarely fitted as wtfuber as you make it out. Yes, there are quite a few people who can do it, but the majority of T3 pilots I've ever PVP'd against don't uber fit their T3 to incredible levels usually.
My 2 cents, I think a 3-400 mil frig with mods included would be ok, if the same skill loss is applied. |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
390
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
any new ships cant be a bad idea can it? |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
446
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:
And yea, your proteus can tank half of what a thanny does, while doing less DPS than an Enyo while doing that.
600DPS is less than an enyo?
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Mimiru Minahiro
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Taria A'nor wrote:Mimiru Minahiro wrote:I heard a rumor that the words T3 and Destroyer were used in conjunction in one of the fanfest presentations. Can anyone confirm this? *joins RVB*
I know right! |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
446
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mimiru Minahiro wrote:I heard a rumor that the words T3 and Destroyer were used in conjunction in one of the fanfest presentations. Can anyone confirm this?
Actually, that wouldn't be a bad niche to fill...
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Cyrina Manto
Masons of New Eden The Laughing Men
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:
And yea, your proteus can tank half of what a thanny does, while doing less DPS than an Enyo while doing that.
600DPS is less than an enyo?
Its only ~100 dps higher than a shield gank Enyo with Null. Thats pretty poor.
Especially when the enyo is only 50m isk or so. |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
446
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cyrina Manto wrote:ElQuirko wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:
And yea, your proteus can tank half of what a thanny does, while doing less DPS than an Enyo while doing that.
600DPS is less than an enyo? Its only ~100 dps higher than a shield gank Enyo with Null. Thats pretty poor. Especially when the enyo is only 50m isk or so.
And your enyo can tank 2,000 DPS?
(To be fair, that's all L5 with 2 reppers running OH and an improved exile booster. With my stats, no booster and no OH, it tanks 1135 DPS normally)
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
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Cyrina Manto
Masons of New Eden The Laughing Men
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 21:25:00 -
[31] - Quote
and what happens when you get hit with neuts? |
adopt
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
291
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
I fail to see your argument. Your saying, that a ship that costs, 600-700mil in Subsystems and Hull alone and actually takes a fair bit of training and pilot competence to be flown properly, should be nerfed because it can take on gangs by itself? You sir, are the definition of stupid. Contrary to popular belief it is not difficult to kill a T3 that is fit for pvp, 2 rapiers/lokis that bitch is going nowhere. Just because you are bad at this game doesn't mean it should reflect other players.
EDIT: On top of the isk loss you also lose a skill which puts your maximum effectiveness out of commision for 3-5 days depending on remap.
Inb4 someone says I know nothing, i've been flying the Loki for the last 5 weeks, (even managed to lose one) I invested 1.6bil and 300mil in implants to make it what it is. Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
FREE XOLVE ~ THE HERO TEST NEEDS |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
446
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cyrina Manto wrote:And what happens when you get hit with neuts?
*edit, Ill answer myself* You turn into an expensive pinata.
Does your enyo fare much better?
*edit, Ill answer myself* lolno
We're not here to discuss my ship, or your ship, or the guy from the alliance that just drops supercapitals on everyone's opinion on whatever the hell his tech moon spews out, we're talking about T3s. ANYTHING hit with neuts becomes a pinata of some sort.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Cyrina Manto
Masons of New Eden The Laughing Men
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 21:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Cyrina Manto wrote:And what happens when you get hit with neuts?
*edit, Ill answer myself* You turn into an expensive pinata. Does your enyo fare much better? *edit, Ill answer myself* lolno We're not here to discuss my ship, or your ship, or the guy from the alliance that just drops supercapitals on everyone's opinion on whatever the hell his tech moon spews out, we're talking about T3s. ANYTHING hit with neuts becomes a pinata of some sort.
Except a properly fit tengu. |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
446
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
adopt wrote:I fail to see your argument. Your saying, that a ship that costs, 600-700mil in Subsystems and Hull alone and actually takes a fair bit of training and pilot competence to be flown properly, should be nerfed because it can take on gangs by itself? You sir, are the definition of stupid. Contrary to popular belief it is not difficult to kill a T3 that is fit for pvp, 2 rapiers/lokis that bitch is going nowhere. Just because you are bad at this game doesn't mean it should reflect other players.
My point exactly.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
446
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:28:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cyrina Manto wrote:Except a properly fit tengu.
You can find the "unsubscribe" button under the Account Management page.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
903
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:38:00 -
[37] - Quote
If all the 3 T3's I can fly were equally versatile I wouldn't be flying 80% 1 (Tengu) and 20% other (Loki), the third one being an hangar queen.
We don't need T3 frigates when navy/pirate ones are already far too good so some T2 ones have no point.
By the way, we don't need anything else that trashes a whole ship line like new BC's, nor new 'I win" button. |
Cyrina Manto
Masons of New Eden The Laughing Men
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 21:40:00 -
[38] - Quote
I recommend biomassing.
If T3 frigates can bring in some new roles to sub cruiser hulls Im all for it. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
903
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cyrina Manto wrote:ElQuirko wrote:Cyrina Manto wrote:And what happens when you get hit with neuts?
*edit, Ill answer myself* You turn into an expensive pinata. ANYTHING hit with neuts becomes a pinata of some sort. Except a properly fit tengu.
False statement, it's exactly what makes a 3B+ isk Tengu crack the string slip. Neut+web, next time try with "except Titans"
Next
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ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
446
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:44:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cyrina Manto wrote:I recommend biomassing.
Heh, two people have now disagreed with your point. Your move, T3 h8r.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
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Cyrina Manto
Masons of New Eden The Laughing Men
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 21:45:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Cyrina Manto wrote:ElQuirko wrote:Cyrina Manto wrote:And what happens when you get hit with neuts?
*edit, Ill answer myself* You turn into an expensive pinata. ANYTHING hit with neuts becomes a pinata of some sort. Except a properly fit tengu. False statement, it's exactly what makes a 3B+ isk Tengu crack the string slip. Neut+web, next time try with "except Titans" Next
For solo yeah, but with any logi on the field the tengu will still be firing and can be fit for a passive resist tank just like the proteus. Main difference is that you will still be firing your missiles while the proteus struggles to get shots in.
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ElQuirko
Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements.
446
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cyrina Manto wrote: For solo yeah, but with any logi on the field the tengu will still be firing and can be fit for a passive resist tank just like the proteus. Main difference is that you will still be firing your missiles while the proteus struggles to get shots in.
Good god...
EDIT: Comparisons between ships are always made presuming that the fight is a 1v1... Otherwise you can just say "YEAH BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIXTY NYXES AND TWO HUNDRED ZILLION CARRIERS AND DREADS GANK IT!111!1!1One!12!"
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Cyrina Manto
Masons of New Eden The Laughing Men
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 21:58:00 -
[43] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote: Good god...
EDIT: Comparisons between ships are always made presuming that the fight is a 1v1... Otherwise you can just say "YEAH BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIXTY NYXES AND TWO HUNDRED ZILLION CARRIERS AND DREADS GANK IT!111!1!1One!12!"
Ok, so 1 v 1 the tengu kites you and you have no neuts that can hit it. This is why the Tengu is so damn popular, and T3's in general are a bit out of balance.
And since when in EvE is the majority of PVP 1 v 1?
I actually fly the proteus, and it is a bit subpar in a duel vs other T3's that can fight at range unless you use a lol rail fit. Then it looses because DPS is a bit inadequate. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
903
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 22:01:00 -
[44] - Quote
Cyrina Manto wrote:For solo yeah, but with any logi on the field the tengu will still be firing and can be fit for a passive resist tank just like the proteus. Main difference is that you will still be firing your missiles while the proteus struggles to get shots in.
That's exactly why my Proteus is an hangar queen, the tengu is not going anywhere once neut/web, his shield physic HP is limited to around 4k depending on the fit, this is indeed something that you can barely brake if said Tengu has a logi, but same apply to Loki. A 6x425mm shield loki is a hell of competitor for DPS, fast and has a hell of a tank, put a logi behind it and you need exponential dps on it to kill it.
Actually what makes me fly Tengu more than loki and loki more than proteus? -this I can answer you.
Now, I want a ship that I don't have to invest 3B in to be able to kill a lot of rats, eventually kick ass some dude trying to kill me and the ability to fit something that can surprise my enemy and help me either kill it either gtfo.
Tengu is the only one I can get out with these pre requirements. -I can fit an 100MN AB that will not make my sign explode to the point even Ray Charles firing blind would hit me. -has enough slots so I can improve my tank, add some e-war and improve my gtfo/dps -have a respectable and flexible range of engagement -profit from faction/ded items to add extra exponentially
None of all others is capable to do this, even Loki that is imho the closest (at least in null sec where I am) doesn't offer all those points despite putting that much isk on fittings.
problem 1 -oversized module that give exponentials ability when it should use a MWD
problem 2 -engagement distance, for a ship of this size being the only one to push a very decent dps at over 100km
Solution 1 -make sort a size module is inactive if the size ship does not match (like rigs)
Solution 2 -Balance the other T3 ships to the point they offer same performances, and from my point of view, this is the real problem, lack of balance and versatility of other T3 ships.
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