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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.09.22 23:23:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Forge Lag on 22/09/2008 23:41:50 Maybe if you cannot fix missiles based on speed than do NOT base their efficiency on speed?
Solution could be increase the effect of sig radius and basically ignore explosion velocity and make missiles fast enough to catch any relevant target. Missiles then do what people say they do - hit for full damage vs same size target, greatly reduced damage vs smaller targets. This is easy solution but it needs removing faulty design work which seems unthinkable for CCP.
The small issue with this is missiles actually do pretty damn good *sustained* DPS compared to long ranged turrets, even before tracking. Anything past frigate sized missiles does way too good DPS (specialized frigates have 50% damage bonus to compensate) and cruise missiles have way too low explosion radius post skills on top of that.
If you inisist on basing missile damage on speed you should look for ways to include *relative* not absolute speed. Would it be possible to compute transversal velocity (not angular, which is what turrets use in fact) of target vs missile (mimicking evasive maneuvring)? If not, how weird would it look to have missile DPS depend on trasversal vs attacker ship?
Still I do not think the way to fix missiles is making them just like turrets only painted blue and any more velocity consideration past travel time is going that way.
Edit: On a topic of Gallente and speed. The original design if I understand correctly was medieval knights in plate armor, heavy, slow, impervious, hard hitting. They were ment to have hard time clashing with opponent, active tanking puny hits and having longest MWD uptimes thanks to powerfull capacitors. Due to current state of tanking and capacitor being defined by cargo space most of all that kinda fell apart. I guess fast and clumsy is the solution then (or cap consumption bonus on both MWD and reppers so they can permarun in PvP fit or decisively outlast opponent cap charges) but it means abandoning obsolete design which is yet again something CCP is very unwilling to do.
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Menerai Entaro
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Posted - 2008.09.23 08:25:00 -
[92]
What would be wrong with increasing missile speed by a large amount, but reduce the agility of the missile?
Small missiles would tend to hit everything because they align to the target easily and large missiles could be avoided. By lowering the acceleration the speed of the missile would be slow to build up giving players reaction time to change heading to out maneuver the missile over its life time - rewarding a skilled pilot.
Balance the agility of the missile classes to the ship sizes and leave the signature radius modifier. That gives you missiles that scale damage and can be countered by agility rather than speed, but are unlikely to be outrun.
What do you think?
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.09.23 08:46:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Menerai Entaro What do you think?
I think missiles are fine as they are. If anything, precision cruises and javelin torps needs slight expl. velocity/radius nerf. Especialy javelin torps are out of line... |
Menerai Entaro
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Posted - 2008.09.23 08:59:00 -
[94]
Doesn't really answer the op though does it...
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.09.23 09:17:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Menerai Entaro Doesn't really answer the op though does it...
Here is what Fendhal wrote in short:
We find speed broken due missiles unable to hit fast ships, therefore we removed fast ships -> Now we think how to fix missiles that they can hit fast ships.
Ridiculous? Yes, it is...
After speed changes as they were presented, turrets and missiles, BOTH will hit 'fast' moving targets with full dmg.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.23 09:33:00 -
[96]
Edited by: lecrotta on 23/09/2008 09:35:35
Originally by: DeadDuck
When a ship is primaried by 20 other ships is dead. Nanoed or not Nanoed.
Wrong, snipers, nano and RR BS can all use their respective tanks to fully ignore or mitigate the damage.
Originally by: DeadDuck Or do you think that every people not flying nanos can only use missile boats? Missile boats are not indicated for PVP in these nanoed times, actually people using missile boats/blaster ships/short range stuff, to fight nanos are asking for a big beating.
If you bring a stupid and limited fleet against a well balanced fleet you of course will lose. But no matter if you use missiles, guns or drones it does not matter if you have tacklers and defenders and you know how to work as a team the enemy ships will die.
Originally by: DeadDuck But people tend to say that only speed can save them from the blob...
1. Long range snipers (normally BS)
Ineffective in a roaming gang cos the ships that use sniper tactics (200+km) are too slow to roam they are better for gate or system camping.
2. RR (normally BS)
Also too slow for roaming and total hot drop fodder in hostile space, they are much better used for defense.
3. Speed (multiple ship types)
Ok at roaming but vulnerable to a skilled mixed gang although they wipe the floor with those individuals that want pvp to be like ratting and fly in ratting setups expecting ppl to sit still and behave like NPC's.
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Fenix Zealot
Caldari Aeon Of Strife
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Posted - 2008.09.23 20:48:00 -
[97]
It figures that a nano nerf would go hand in hand with the idea of a missile nerf or some kind of change in the mechanics that would probably cause more problems than already exist. As if smartbombs nano and the idea of uber defender missiles wasn't bad enough now people want the damage calculation to change to make missiles do even less damage than they already do? With the exception of torps missile dps is the lowest of any of comperable classes of weapons. So finally missiles shine through as being usefull for once and uh oh wait we can't have caldari being popular in pvp! Oh no god forbid a raven weilding carebear evolve into a pvper that can have marginal success! We can't let those carebears think they can find success in pvp! What has new eden come to! En Taro Adun! |
Tac Ginaz
The Righteous Few
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Posted - 2008.09.24 02:55:00 -
[98]
The issue of speed vs missiles has been on the table for an insane amount of time and only now you guys look into it and get goggle-eyed? Guess CCP doesn't read the forums as much as they should. (or play the game for that matter).
The whole problem IS the MWD itself. Anything flying faster than 2k speed makes the game truly unbalanced. The max speed the specialized interdictors should be able to fly IS 2k.
In fact, what you guys should do is change the roles and effects of the AB and MWD.
One should increase TOP SPEED the other should increase ACCELERATION.
Afterburner should increase the top speed. A frigate with max speed 300ms turning on the Afterburner should see its max speed raised to ..I dunno, lets say 1000ms. However, it does not ACCELERATE to 1000ms at the fast rate it does now. It should use the ship's normal acceleration rate to reach up to the 1000ms. Drawback of course, is that to turn the ship you have to slow down or end up with a flippin' gargantuan turn circle.
MWD should increase acceleration rate and a minimal raise in top speed. The same frigate as above, with 300ms normal top speed , upon flipping on the MWD would fly to 500ms max and reach that speed VERY quickly. Thanks to the fast acceleration, the MWD also allows the ships to maintain a constant high speed when turning (rather than doing a hard turn, losing lots of speed then slowly gaining it..with the MWD they could turn hard and find themselves flying at top speed again in a second or two).
Make those changes and everything falls into place.
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RC Denton
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Posted - 2008.09.24 05:44:00 -
[99]
It seems the devs have cracked under the nano whiners pressure. Although there is no doubt that t2 missile specs are whacked it's whacked pretty much in the defenders favor. Lots of graphs etc being thrown around but I'll take these #s from the missile guide in the player guide, which incidentally tops out at a ship going 3km/s which is pretty modest for a nano.
Heavy missiles have an explosion velocity of 750m/s so at 3km/sec that's an 89% reduction in damage Precison heavies do 1000m/s so at 3km/s thats and 83% reduction in damage. However precision missiles are already pre-nerfed as they do significantly less damage than the t1 missiles. A t1 heavy will do 150pts base. A t2 precision will do 135pts base. That's a 10% reduction in base damage off the top. So the only real advantage is that precisions will do a little more damage at the higher speeds until finally the reduction goes to effectively zero at current nano speeds.
Cruise missiles have the same specs. This is where the class differences come in. Cruise and heavy precision should not have the same specs since then the heavier missile will do more damage vs smaller targets when MWD is taken into account and this is a "Bad Thing" according to CCP. But the overall damage mitigation from speed is extreme. Even if you capped speed at 3km/s you'd still be getting an 83% mitigation from precision missiles which do 10% less base damage. That's pretty effective I'd say. Also in addition to being pre-nerfed for damage precision missiles have half the range of their t1 counter parts. So their engagement envelope is much smaller. Any fast ship can get out of the envelope that much faster.
Light precisions are another story. They will do 100% damage to a ship going 3km/s and do the same damage as their t1 counter part. In todays world however, heavy missiles and cruise missiles are completely useless vs ships going 5k-6km/s. Light precision missiles will do some damage. So in some specialty ships, i.e. cerbs, light missiles have the range and velocity to actually damage ships going 3km/s. So there's one caldari ship in existence that has the possibility to actually engage a nano with missiles effectively when it's moving at speed. Well good...light precision missiles should do full damage to fast ships, that's their role.
The biggest problem as I see it is that CCP has created a step function between light and heavy/cruise t2 missiles where they are very effective at one level, and completely ineffective at another.
I do not agree in any way shape or form that there should be damage mitigation vs all classes of missiles via speed. Light precision missiles are short range, low damage, and actually somewhat effective at hitting nano ships. This should stand. Heavy and cruise missiles should be adjusted so that they are not completely ineffective as they are now.
This post by CCP only takes into account one factor, sig radius, but there is already substantial damage mitigation occuring due to explosion velocity. Adding the sig radius in only increases the mitigation or in cases of an MWD, doesn't add to the mitigation. This is how it should be. Missiles should be effective in pvp vs small ships. Currently only one missile class can do it, and that class is very vulnerable to defender missiles. Rock paper scisors. To use a favorite quote from the nano crowd "Adapt or die".
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RC Denton
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Posted - 2008.09.24 06:01:00 -
[100]
Edited by: RC Denton on 24/09/2008 06:03:21
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 16/09/2008 16:04:02
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Speed was broken before. I think even Caldari pilots will be happier with a sig radius MWD change and still landing some damage rather than targets being entirely immune. Long story short, something has to change with speed and simultaneously something has to change with missiles such that missiles do some damage against targets of the size they're meant for and yet they aren't useless in small gang fights where everyone is immune to them and yet aren't the 'I Win' button against turret ships.
You see and you still dont get differences between weapon types.
NOW: 1. i can get immunity to missiles by getting hi speed 2. i can get immunity to guns by outtracking them, staying out of range, TDing them
after nano nerf: 1. - 2. i can get immunity to guns by staying out of range, TDing them
Thus missiles become superior weapon without any form of counter.
EDIT: o yea that was for weapons of same size so med guns - heavy missiles, large guns large missiles etc. And yes i know torps have reduced range so they can be outranged, BUT hams cannot (80+km with javelins), same for rockets (javelin rockets almost outrange small beams with aurora - and they are close range weapons).
Missiles are vulnerable to defender missiles In all cases but light precision if you're going a modest 3km/s you'll get very high mitigation from explosion velocity ECM will cause the ship to break lock and then missiles do 0 dmg Damps will prevent lock in the first place
adapt or die
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.09.24 07:05:00 -
[101]
Originally by: RC Denton
adapt or die
Should be fixed to: Adapt or whine
Just cry enough and CCP bends the game for you. |
Tac Ginaz
The Righteous Few
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:22:00 -
[102]
Quote:
Missiles are vulnerable to defender missiles
Perhaps you have failed to notice that if you get 5 missiles fired at you from one source and you fire 5 defenders, all 5 defenders will go after the first missile in the incoming 5-missile volley. If defender #1 destroys incoming missile #1 , then defender #2-5 simply lose lock and are lost, they do not re-lock onto other incoming missiles.
Then the other 4 happily hit your ship.
That, coupled with the slow refire rate of the defender missiles (even if you have rocket launcher firing the defenders) makes the defender missiles pointless to equip.
Plus, not all ships can equip launchers.
Back on topic, the issue with the speed needs a complete re-vamp not a bunch of band-aid patches to stop the bleeding from a gaping chest wound. CCP would be wise to learn from the errors of other games that did the band-aid fixes (like SWG).
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. The Border Patrol
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Posted - 2008.09.24 18:47:00 -
[103]
like in many other games with complex physics in space
MWD is a module that drives a pilot out of combat, or allows him to charge in a fast mode
MWD maximum turning is 2%, you are very fast 11 km/s, but can not turn swiftly
Afterburner is for the skirmishes, as it is supposed to be quick maneuvering in the battle, hitting the thrusters and breaking through the dog fight
Microwarp drive should be able to take you out of battle, but it doesn't give you complete immunity, you have a limited amount of nuclear fuel in your ship.
in terms of EVE mwd means fast charge, with no ability to orbit afterburner should mean ability to move faster that the opponent at the expense of ship energy
interceptors can be given a role bonus, negate microwarpdrive agility penalty
this pretty much fixes the nano prob.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.09.24 21:43:00 -
[104]
Originally by: RC Denton
NOW: 1. i can get immunity to missiles by getting hi speed 2. i can get immunity to guns by outtracking them, staying out of range, TDing them
after nano nerf: 1. - 2. i can get immunity to guns by staying out of range, TDing them
Missiles are vulnerable to defender missiles
lol. Defenders can barely defend from 1 missile per salvo IF you are lucky and missile user starts at over 50-60km. Otherwise (under 50km range) missiles usually hit you before defenders catch up.
Quote:
In all cases but light precision if you're going a modest 3km/s you'll get very high mitigation from explosion velocity
Isnt it EXACTLY what i wrote under hi speed ?
Quote:
ECM will cause the ship to break lock and then missiles do 0 dmg Damps will prevent lock in the first place
I hope you know that after you ECM ship his missiles WILL hit you? And IIRC they do full damage then (if s1 can check it, dont have working sisi copy atm).
Quote:
adapt or die
O yea i did adapt perfectly. My both chars can fly cloaked raven by now and main is amarr pilot :) Ofc all HACs got cloak free of charge :)
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.09.24 21:47:00 -
[105]
Whats funny i still see the major point of nano whine "my missiles can hit it". Bring a friend, equip web (EXACTLY how turret users hit nano ships - by webbing them).
And CCP still doesnt understand that reducing speeds across the board (not only insane speeds) will cause way more problems than "missiles are too good now". There was topic before stating what needs to be changed after nerfing speed. From memory it started with bubble sizes, gate jump in points closer to gates, smaller undocks on stations, doomsday activation delays, drone/fighter speeds... and that was just top of an iceberg.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.24 22:18:00 -
[106]
Edited by: lecrotta on 24/09/2008 22:18:15
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Whats funny i still see the major point of nano whine "my missiles can hit it". Bring a friend, equip web (EXACTLY how turret users hit nano ships - by webbing them).
/signed
Missiles are great against tackled nano as all those previously fired missiles all catch up and melt the tackled ship as soon as it gets webbed.
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
EDIT: as for effectiveness of missile ships? http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=155354
Here ya go. Few tacklers sitting close to enemy group with cerbs spamming missiles from 160km. When missiles arrive target instapops.
http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=148720 this cerb was nanoed and he WAS burning away. Note top damage dealer... ohgosh - missile user O_o
http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=148722 example of killing "fast tackler" with cerb. Top killer cerb was using web + overheat. Sabre got 2 salvoed.
I could find prolly 100s more of similiar kills or ones where missiles were only damage dealt but whatever. Point is missiles have their use in PvP - you just need to know how to use em. Players are not NPCs and wont be - you actually need to flex your brain to kill em.
Nice to see you still have a good grasp of pvp and the fact that you cannot expect ppl to sit still like npc rats and let you pop them.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:24:00 -
[107]
cruie missiles ( bs weapon) have signature radious of medium turets(cruisers) broken isnt it?
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.09.26 07:04:00 -
[108]
Seriously, how much thought was put in this patch?
Any boost to missiles under current(TQ) mechanics is causing heavy imbalance.
Reasoning: PvP boats currently have to fit MWD, web, speed and put well organized gang together in order to be efficient in PvP. Boosting missiles means that all effort made by turret boat pilots can be replaced by F1, F2, F3... sequence on launcher fitted ships.
Reducing speed will change PvP into slug fest.
Reasoning: When speed is reduced, neither turret nor missile boats will have issue to hit a target. Only fast ships were capable to avoid DPS(turret and missiles). Making DPS(missiles or turrets) easier to land means that skills and well organized gang can be replaced by raw DPS. That does not mean player skills are completely removed, skilled pilots will be still superior to unorganized gangs, it means that unorganized gangs will be boosted due increase in their effortless efficiency.
Is that a balance you talk about - effortless kills?
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.09.27 11:26:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Kepakh When speed is reduced, neither turret nor missile boats will have issue to hit a target.
Afterburning Drake (arguably biggest slowest target you can get with self painted bullseye on it) vs Deimos (you do not have web, if you do, you do not have tank). Try it right now.
Tracking works as intended and AB does provide sizeable damage reduction. It is webs that nullify "high orbit speeds" (Drake-high, lol) today.
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Menerai Entaro
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Posted - 2008.09.28 05:29:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Menerai Entaro on 28/09/2008 05:33:48
Originally by: RC Denton It seems the devs have cracked under the nano whiners pressure.
Possibly... but they are not implementing the speed reduction on a whim. They have done tests and found that speed, rather ironically slows the physics engine down. So as part of the optimization initiative they are reducing speeds across the board. Oh and increasing missile speeds is not an option for the same reason(Answered my own post :P).
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.28 09:46:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Menerai Entaro
Possibly... but they are not implementing the speed reduction on a whim. They have done tests and found that speed, rather ironically slows the physics engine down. So as part of the optimization initiative they are reducing speeds across the board.
Nano is used for small/med sized gang fighting and as such does not suffer from the lag monster, so slowing ships will do absolutely nothing to help ppl in 300 vs 300 or more territorial battles as nano is not used.
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Menerai Entaro
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Posted - 2008.09.28 21:54:00 -
[112]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Menerai Entaro
Possibly... but they are not implementing the speed reduction on a whim. They have done tests and found that speed, rather ironically slows the physics engine down. So as part of the optimization initiative they are reducing speeds across the board.
Nano is used for small/med sized gang fighting and as such does not suffer from the lag monster, so slowing ships will do absolutely nothing to help ppl in 300 vs 300 or more territorial battles as nano is not used.
True, but what about when there are 30 small gangs in one system rather than one big fleet? Which is what the devs are also trying achieve. Granted, at the moment that really doesn't happen, but it is something that they want to happen so they are changing the game to support their design goal.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.09.29 09:33:00 -
[113]
Edited by: lebrata on 29/09/2008 09:35:28
Originally by: Menerai Entaro
True, but what about when there are 30 small gangs in one system rather than one big fleet? Which is what the devs are also trying achieve. Granted, at the moment that really doesn't happen, but it is something that they want to happen so they are changing the game to support their design goal.
2 huge fleets in a system or 30 smaller gangs (15 on each side) in a system it does not matter as its the amount of ppl in a system and on grid that causes lag not if they are in the same gang or not.
Originally by: Menerai Entaro
What they are asking for in this thread, are ideas from a fresh perspective to help them come up with a balancing mechanic for missiles because as far as they are concerned, this modification must be made.
Missiles do not need balancing they are fine in fact in most cases they are a lot better than guns, you just need to know how to use them correctly instead of wanting pvp to be like pve where your targets sit still so you can shoot them.
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Menerai Entaro
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Posted - 2008.09.29 11:27:00 -
[114]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 29/09/2008 09:35:28
2 huge fleets in a system or 30 smaller gangs (15 on each side) in a system it does not matter as its the amount of ppl in a system and on grid that causes lag not if they are in the same gang or not.
Agreed, lots people on grid causes lag, but the amount of interactivity between players within the physics engine (of which speed plays a big part) also causes lag - hence devs reducing speed.
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 29/09/2008 09:35:28
Missiles do not need balancing they are fine in fact in most cases they are a lot better than guns, you just need to know how to use them correctly instead of wanting pvp to be like pve where your targets sit still so you can shoot them.
Again agreed - missiles as they are on/in TQ work fine. That still does not change the fact that with the implementation of this patch they will need to be rebalanced as the current formula will not work, as has been pointed out by the devs themselves.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.09.29 11:44:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Menerai Entaro
Agreed, lots people on grid causes lag, but the amount of interactivity between players within the physics engine (of which speed plays a big part) also causes lag - hence devs reducing speed.
It is the interactivity that causes lag, speed is a minor aspect of it and considering speed is not used in large scale warfare its gonna make little or no difference to lag in blob wars.
Originally by: Menerai Entaro Again agreed - missiles as they are on/in TQ work fine.
So speed hardly effects lag cos they are a small gang affection while blobs do cause it, and missiles are fine as they are on tq then this stupid speed nerf and all the things it breaks need not be done.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:03:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Murina on 29/09/2008 12:04:00 Speed is used in small gang fighting and while it may produce slightly higher lag it is irrelevant considering the size of the gangs it is used in. The main cause of lag is sheer numbers and the extra bit caused by having a few speed ships in a 300 man blob is so insignificant its a joke.
I find nothing wrong with missiles or gunnery on TQ at the moment and aside from the ultra rare 30kms fits i think speed is a benefit to eve and to skilled pvp and removing it will spell the beginning of the end for eve.
I have no interest and nor do many other players in being the equivalent of a drone for some FC/target caller in pvp fights, lock target f1-f8 is not skilled pvp nor is getting primaried and getting insta popped without being tackled.
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Akiman
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.29 15:41:00 -
[117]
tsk.
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Ross Sylibus
Without Reason
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Posted - 2008.09.29 17:29:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Ross Sylibus on 29/09/2008 17:32:38 edit: wrong thread |
Menerai Entaro
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Posted - 2008.09.30 03:00:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 29/09/2008 12:04:00 I have no interest and nor do many other players in being the equivalent of a drone for some FC/target caller in pvp fights, lock target f1-f8 is not skilled pvp nor is getting primaried and getting insta popped without being tackled.
Nor do I, which is why I'm following this thread to help out if i can, to keep the balance and gameplay the same in the face of the speed nerf.
Idealy i'd like to see everything remain the same, or even have some of the simple yet effective changes others have listed. The devs have shown with the test server build, that they are not going to do that. Soo...
If any good ideas are put forward i'm sure the devs will take notice, it is afterall the idea of this thread. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.04 00:32:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/10/2008 00:31:51 Good to see progress. The speed changes are great if the missile problem gets balanced. Lets hope it gets resolved soon so we can get rid of the nano-win-button. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
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