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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.09.05 01:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 05/09/2008 01:43:58 Granted I have never flown one before (thus why I am asking)
But with 5 % bonus to Damage, 7.5% armor repairer, + another 5% to damage and 10% to fall off. (not to mention drone bay) It seems to me like this will be a pretty mean beast post nano nerf??? Others just don't seem to agree . . .
And so I come here to ask why?
In my opinion:
4 mid slots, 6 low slots and 7 turret hard points sounds pretty good to me. And I like the idea of being able to change damage types as well. BC signature radius should mean little VS other BC vessels and its tank should fair well enough VS a BS (without to much delusions of grandeur) The fall off bonus + weber + drones should mean it would fair well enough DPS wise VS smaller ships with less tank then it (especially post Nano Nerf)
So It may not be the ultimate PVP ship, but I just don't see how it can be a "hulking peace of crap" like others have so eloquently put.
What am I missing???
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Hunduran
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Posted - 2008.09.05 01:55:00 -
[2]
most ppl are simply under the impression that if a battleship can do the same thing only better and with more hp for cheaper.. then there is no reason to fly the ship. that's where ppl fail.. they all whine about boohoo a t2 ship cant solo a battleship..
battleships were never meant to be beaten at the dealing/soaking damage role. anyone who says otherwise is ridiculous.
the only thing wrong with astarte is that it's role is to carry a warfare link.. but with all your highs being guns.. that doesn't work so well. after the speed changes the astarte will be faster and therefore it'll have another reason to fly it. I'd say use ambit extension rigs and do a crap ton of dps from nice range
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.09.05 02:10:00 -
[3]
use rails and bbq support
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Mr Ignitious
Gallente R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 02:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hunduran most ppl are simply under the impression that if a battleship can do the same thing only better and with more hp for cheaper.. then there is no reason to fly the ship. that's where ppl fail.. they all whine about boohoo a t2 ship cant solo a battleship..
battleships were never meant to be beaten at the dealing/soaking damage role. anyone who says otherwise is ridiculous.
the only thing wrong with astarte is that it's role is to carry a warfare link.. but with all your highs being guns.. that doesn't work so well. after the speed changes the astarte will be faster and therefore it'll have another reason to fly it. I'd say use ambit extension rigs and do a crap ton of dps from nice range
umm what? You dont fit gang mods on the astarte... thats what the eos is for...
If you got money, go for it, astarte is fun, however a mega is better is a lot more cost effective (until web nerf)
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.05 03:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
Originally by: Hunduran most ppl are simply under the impression that if a battleship can do the same thing only better and with more hp for cheaper.. then there is no reason to fly the ship. that's where ppl fail.. they all whine about boohoo a t2 ship cant solo a battleship..
battleships were never meant to be beaten at the dealing/soaking damage role. anyone who says otherwise is ridiculous.
the only thing wrong with astarte is that it's role is to carry a warfare link.. but with all your highs being guns.. that doesn't work so well. after the speed changes the astarte will be faster and therefore it'll have another reason to fly it. I'd say use ambit extension rigs and do a crap ton of dps from nice range
umm what? You dont fit gang mods on the astarte... thats what the eos is for...
If you got money, go for it, astarte is fun, however a mega is better is a lot more cost effective (until web nerf)
Sometimes ppl need to realise that a bs is NOT always better, one needs to take such things in to mind such as speed, agility, lock time etc (lock time is huge as if your bhs is so slow that it cnat lock something in time before red runs away or dies, your useless for your fleet and will get on no km's).
Most fc's prefer sub-bs for roams..Think of them as mini-bs's. However looking at cost effectiveness vs. a t1 bc, your often better off with those, tho its much less fun..
Proudly annoying FC's since 2007 Remove m for manditory in mwd! |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 03:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
4 mid slots, 6 low slots and 7 turret hard points sounds pretty good to me.
Combined with a rep bonus, it doesn't sound preety good for me personally.
Think about this: a Astarte does the DPS of your average gank BC if you decide to fit a active tank and put a single MFS II in, while having preety much the same effective HP as your average gank BC, and a not very impressive 500 DPS tank.
If you decide to plate it, you've just lost a ship bonus in addition to sucking up the grid which you're sorely lacking on (if you want to fit proper guns).
Given your only advantage over a average gank-fit BC is a 500 DPS tank (if you decide to use its bonuses), what would be the point of flying a Astarte over one? I mean, there's a small issue of price, not to mention phrases like 'juicy target'.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.05 03:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
4 mid slots, 6 low slots and 7 turret hard points sounds pretty good to me.
Combined with a rep bonus, it doesn't sound preety good for me personally.
Think about this: a Astarte does the DPS of your average gank BC if you decide to fit a active tank and put a single MFS II in, while having preety much the same effective HP as your average gank BC, and a not very impressive 500 DPS tank.
If you decide to plate it, you've just lost a ship bonus in addition to sucking up the grid which you're sorely lacking on (if you want to fit proper guns).
Given your only advantage over a average gank-fit BC is a 500 DPS tank (if you decide to use its bonuses), what would be the point of flying a Astarte over one? I mean, there's a small issue of price, not to mention phrases like 'juicy target'.
the P.I.M.P. factor is always a must have in the days of drakes n nano hacs
Proudly annoying FC's since 2007 Remove m for manditory in mwd! |
forum mematar
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.05 03:38:00 -
[8]
You arent missing anything I think.
Ofcourse they are worse than a bs in most cases but damn are they much more fun to fly! ---
http://stige.pingtimeout.net/evevids/ |
Wil Smithx
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2008.09.05 08:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: BiggestT
Sometimes ppl need to realise that a bs is NOT always better, one needs to take such things in to mind such as speed, agility, lock time etc (lock time is huge as if your bhs is so slow that it cnat lock something in time before red runs away or dies, your useless for your fleet and will get on no km's).
Most fc's prefer sub-bs for roams..Think of them as mini-bs's. However looking at cost effectiveness vs. a t1 bc, your often better off with those, tho its much less fun..
As I remember the hyperion is more agile and faster. No?
There is at the moment about no reson to fly astarte over a hype apart from maybe tracking. But you will do like twice the raw dps anyways...
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Gamesguy
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 09:21:00 -
[10]
Because a mega can do everything better for cheaper.
Mega does more dps, check.
Mega has more tank, check.
Mega can fit a heavy neut, check.
Mega can hit the same targets(webbed), more or less check.
So why bother with the astarte when you can have a mega that does everything but better? You want agility and speed? You can fit a mega to be faster and more agile than an astarte but still tank/gank better.
Eos just sucks atm, no point to gallente cs.
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Imaos
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Posted - 2008.09.05 09:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Think about this: a Astarte does the DPS of your average gank BC if you decide to fit a active tank and put a single MFS II in, while having preety much the same effective HP as your average gank BC, and a not very impressive 500 DPS tank.
500 DPS at optimal+falloff.
The problem with the astarte is the range. It is really small. DPS isn't bad. And the agility is better than the hyperion:
100m/s faster with MWD on. 0.75x aligntime of hyp. (Only one Mag Stab on the hyp vs 2 on the astarte) 998 dps on my starte (before implants, faction ammo), 2426 volley 741 dps on my hyperion (same as above), 3496 volley Double the hp on the hyp. Double the weapon range on the hyp.
Imaos ------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 09:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Imaos
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Think about this: a Astarte does the DPS of your average gank BC if you decide to fit a active tank and put a single MFS II in, while having preety much the same effective HP as your average gank BC, and a not very impressive 500 DPS tank.
500 DPS at optimal+falloff.
I was talking about the 'tank' on it (assuming 1 magstab).
Anyway, when looking at optimal+falloff DPS, don't forget to factor in hit quality degradation. It results in a turret ship doing about 39% damage at said range rather then 50% (so EFT charts are, in fact, wrong).
That makes range issues even worse
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.09.05 12:45:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 05/09/2008 12:46:23
Originally by: Gamesguy Because a mega can do everything better for cheaper.
Mega does more dps, check.
Mega has more tank, check.
Mega can fit a heavy neut, check.
Mega can hit the same targets(webbed), more or less check.
So why bother with the astarte when you can have a mega that does everything but better? You want agility and speed? You can fit a mega to be faster and more agile than an astarte but still tank/gank better.
Eos just sucks atm, no point to gallente cs.
And when webs get nerfed??? Do you think this will still hold true??
I am talking about . . . mostly 1v1 and small gangs.
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Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hunduran most ppl are simply under the impression that if a battleship can do the same thing only better and with more hp for cheaper.. then there is no reason to fly the ship. that's where ppl fail.. they all whine about boohoo a t2 ship cant solo a battleship..
battleships were never meant to be beaten at the dealing/soaking damage role. anyone who says otherwise is ridiculous.
the only thing wrong with astarte is that it's role is to carry a warfare link.. but with all your highs being guns.. that doesn't work so well. after the speed changes the astarte will be faster and therefore it'll have another reason to fly it. I'd say use ambit extension rigs and do a crap ton of dps from nice range
LOL. Yep, I'm one of those epic fail people then. When I started reading your post I actually thought you were trying to be sarcastically clever.
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Stork DK
Minmatar Synthetic Frontiers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:14:00 -
[15]
In my opinion, anything that can dish out 1k dps + is deffo worth training for =] imo what you need to do is stop reading my sig ___________
Originally by: CCP Nozh I see you'r nano... And i TAKE IT!!
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InsanlyEvlPerson
Gallente Mercenaries International Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:23:00 -
[16]
Well, i think they will be better after the web/speed nerf. once the blaster BS's cant web their targets as well, the extra tracking of the medium guns will end up doing more dps against smaller targets, assuming you can overcome the range issues. this is true of ALL commandships, though some have less range issues than others.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:26:00 -
[17]
Astarte's problem is that, while it is a blaster ship, it is also a blaster ship.
what do I mean with that?
active tanks in a blaster ship is the same thing as you try to active-tank a tachy abaddon: you can, in theory, but you'll be out of cap faster than speedy gonzales.
coupled with the fact that blasters are, inherently, very short range and cap hungry, and the grid needed for passive setups (thus discarding the rep bonus). Sure, you have a 4th mid to slap an injector there, but then you'll be pretty much gimping your operability range, and the BC agility isn't that hot either.
In most situations where the Astarte can be employed, the deimos or the megathron can do the same for less (deimos for faster gangs, or megathron for heavier gangs).
in sum, the astarte, while pretty much a dps monster, it also tries to put 2 worlds (BS dps in a smaller, more agilie ship) together, and rather fails at it. The only situation where I would use it, it would be in a cruiser-sized gang, being the main hitter, backed up by lot of support, and even so, the gang would be slowed down by it.
BC-sized ships, I prefer the abso and the damnation, being the abso with the ability of hitting fast targets at <25km range, and the armor bonuses that the damnation has. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
ZephyrLexx
Caldari Earth Federation Space Forces
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hunduran most ppl are simply under the impression that if a battleship can do the same thing only better and with more hp for cheaper.. then there is no reason to fly the ship. that's where ppl fail.. they all whine about boohoo a t2 ship cant solo a battleship..
battleships were never meant to be beaten at the dealing/soaking damage role. anyone who says otherwise is ridiculous.
the only thing wrong with astarte is that it's role is to carry a warfare link.. but with all your highs being guns.. that doesn't work so well. after the speed changes the astarte will be faster and therefore it'll have another reason to fly it. I'd say use ambit extension rigs and do a crap ton of dps from nice range
you go on about people pidgeonholing ships into certain areas and such, and then you go on to say "xxx's ships role is to do this xxx" when no, it really isn't, you can do whatever you like with your ship.
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Heknai
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Wil Smithx
Originally by: BiggestT
Sometimes ppl need to realise that a bs is NOT always better, one needs to take such things in to mind such as speed, agility, lock time etc (lock time is huge as if your bhs is so slow that it cnat lock something in time before red runs away or dies, your useless for your fleet and will get on no km's).
Most fc's prefer sub-bs for roams..Think of them as mini-bs's. However looking at cost effectiveness vs. a t1 bc, your often better off with those, tho its much less fun..
As I remember the hyperion is more agile and faster. No?
There is at the moment about no reson to fly astarte over a hype apart from maybe tracking. But you will do like twice the raw dps anyways...
well if you have specialized in medium hybrids (like myself lolz) and don't have t2 large hybrids then the astarte might seem very appealing
--In times of strife and desperation, heroes are made of ordinary men... |
Hunduran
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:28:00 -
[20]
then fly a bs is all im saying
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Oli Robbo
Gallente Galactic Defence Syndicate Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: ZephyrLexx
Originally by: Hunduran most ppl are simply under the impression that if a battleship can do the same thing only better and with more hp for cheaper.. then there is no reason to fly the ship. that's where ppl fail.. they all whine about boohoo a t2 ship cant solo a battleship..
battleships were never meant to be beaten at the dealing/soaking damage role. anyone who says otherwise is ridiculous.
the only thing wrong with astarte is that it's role is to carry a warfare link.. but with all your highs being guns.. that doesn't work so well. after the speed changes the astarte will be faster and therefore it'll have another reason to fly it. I'd say use ambit extension rigs and do a crap ton of dps from nice range
you go on about people pidgeonholing ships into certain areas and such, and then you go on to say "xxx's ships role is to do this xxx" when no, it really isn't, you can do whatever you like with your ship.
Yeah you can... if you want it to fail
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:50:00 -
[22]
Astarte is a good field command ship for soloing. Id fit rails for larger gangs/fleets though. |
Shina Windol
Caldari House Liao
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:05:00 -
[23]
Eternum, it's not that the Astarte isn't mean...cause it packs a helluva punch...it's just a combination of factors that can hurt the Astarte in less than ideal circumstances. Webs and long range engagements are your bane. You have to get close to be effective with most fits, so if you get caught and held outside your optimal, they'll tear you apart. The dmg is good, but most gank BSs (Geddon, Mega, Torp Raven) can shred you quickly if you're caught by them. Best way to fly an Astarte is either with friends for support or when/where you get to choose your fights. -------------------
Originally by: Vrabac ...for a moment I thought "You idiot, you just attacked God".
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Grimpak Astarte's problem is that, while it is a blaster ship, it is also a blaster ship.
what do I mean with that?
active tanks in a blaster ship is the same thing as you try to active-tank a tachy abaddon: you can, in theory, but you'll be out of cap faster than speedy gonzales.
coupled with the fact that blasters are, inherently, very short range and cap hungry, and the grid needed for passive setups (thus discarding the rep bonus). Sure, you have a 4th mid to slap an injector there, but then you'll be pretty much gimping your operability range, and the BC agility isn't that hot either.
hmmhmmjust a curious OT question: A pnassive Tank setting would be "getting lots of plates and hoping it is not destroyed before your enemy is?
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wil Smithx
Originally by: BiggestT
Sometimes ppl need to realise that a bs is NOT always better, one needs to take such things in to mind such as speed, agility, lock time etc (lock time is huge as if your bhs is so slow that it cnat lock something in time before red runs away or dies, your useless for your fleet and will get on no km's).
Most fc's prefer sub-bs for roams..Think of them as mini-bs's. However looking at cost effectiveness vs. a t1 bc, your often better off with those, tho its much less fun..
As I remember the hyperion is more agile and faster. No?
There is at the moment about no reson to fly astarte over a hype apart from maybe tracking. But you will do like twice the raw dps anyways...
..I have no idea what ur talking about lol, Astarte is faster and has like 1/10th the mass so will definately be more agile.. And yeah the lock time is a big thing..
Course a hyp wld be more "cost effective" but an fc wld hate you in his gang and ud be far less pimp
Proudly annoying FC's since 2007 Remove m for manditory in mwd! |
Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:48:00 -
[26]
The Astarte doesn't suck so much as its performance is not worth the price. Its a good blaster ship, but you can get similar-or-better DPS, and often times better mobility, out of far less expensive and easier-to-train for ships. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:49:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Originally by: Grimpak Astarte's problem is that, while it is a blaster ship, it is also a blaster ship.
what do I mean with that?
active tanks in a blaster ship is the same thing as you try to active-tank a tachy abaddon: you can, in theory, but you'll be out of cap faster than speedy gonzales.
coupled with the fact that blasters are, inherently, very short range and cap hungry, and the grid needed for passive setups (thus discarding the rep bonus). Sure, you have a 4th mid to slap an injector there, but then you'll be pretty much gimping your operability range, and the BC agility isn't that hot either.
hmmhmmjust a curious OT question: A pnassive Tank setting would be "getting lots of plates and hoping it is not destroyed before your enemy is?
passive tanks relies on you outganking your enemy
deimos does it to some extent, altho 24k EHP and 1km optimal with faction AM in a full gank neutron deimos makes you rely on med ECM drones and the over 520dps your guns dish out more than anything else.
and that's how I believe blaster ships should be: "Do or Die" ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:17:00 -
[28]
Ok, just after the word "Damage is the best tank" I see
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Orion GUardian Ok, just after the word "Damage is the best tank" I see
yes, unless it's a drake ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests Pure.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:02:00 -
[30]
Because those stats don't take into account eh hulk mass of the bloody ship. A mwd mega will outrun an astarte, f*** a harb with 1600mm plate move faster (and btw kills the astarte since it cant web the harb). Simply put, when they reduced the diemost's mass they did it so that it could ge into range, astarte never got that love, just like the diemost never got the rep bonus they put on sis last year.
If it was lighter and could move like a blaster needs to then yes, it would be a beast, as is buy an abso and load scorch (or a harb, really), and pray that they fix this mass with the nano changes. -------------------------
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