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JamnOne
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: JamnOne on 05/09/2008 16:55:30 I've noticed that some of the threads when talking about Hi vs Lo sec a lot of times missioning and minerals come up. People argue that because of the minerals available through reprocessing T1 gear obtained in missions that Hi Sec is a little better off or almost unbalanced in risk vs reward.
So, I am curious, is there really an imbalance in distribution? If there is, how would you correct it or what changes would you recommend?
I usually don't reprocess my T1 gear. I donate it to my corp mates and New Players to help them learn about the game. ________________ Poor is the nation that has no heroes. Shameful is the one that, having heroes - Forgets them!
Author Unknown
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:08:00 -
[2]
Close. It's because zydrine/nocx/megacyte/isogen can be nabbed from mission loot, but that's not so much because of missions as it is because of the drone regions. Drone regions drop alloys which refine into a LOT of nocxium and isogen which kills the price of lowsec ores.
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:16:00 -
[3]
As Kahega said, it's a combination of many factors ... mission loot being one of them.
I don't reprocess much T1 gear, either. But I know of many manufacturers who put up buy orders for common loot drop modules, instead of putting buy orders on losec minerals.
Player does mission, hits market, sells loot ... rarely does he look where that loot is going. Many seem to be convinced that it is sold to an NPC (it's the way it is in other games, so they think it's the same here). But is it going to someone specifically looking for that module to equip their ship? Doubtful.
You'll probably see that it goes to someone asking to buy 10,000 of that same module. Quick little warning sign that it's either a trader going to haul it to another area, or a producer going to reprocess.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:30:00 -
[4]
Revamping the mineral distribution has been on my wishlist since I was messing with the drone regions. I've talked about it with a fair number of people and there are mixed opinions about it. That's not to say it will never happen and of course me relating this to you is not a promise of any kind. But it's a nice change of pace to be informative every now and then.
Personally I'd like to ensure that no region of space is self-sufficient when it comes to minerals availability. I am, however, quite certain that this is not a very popular opinion. That in it self is one of the main factors of me not ranting and raving about this until I get time to look at this. People have taken their time to map out belts and plan operations and then I come along and nuke all their hard work just because I wanna. If you remember the flack I got for deleting containers, think about the artillery bombardment from all the miners having their source of income upset like that.
That's not the only variable though. There have been talks about removing belts as static objects and turn them into some sort of dungeons. I'm very fond of this idea as it will remove a whole lot of items from the database and free up a range of IDs we could use for other stuff. It would also make it a lot simpler to author and maintain the distribution based on whatever we want. It would become more of a loot table in the sense that some variables of your position and possible corporation that hands you the mining job dictate what minerals will spawn. Way easier to tweak than the current system which is millions upon millions of data base objects which are essentially denormalized between many tables and there's no real guarantee that they'll conform between servers as they are not a part of any static data (as their definitions are volatile due to mining).
So I'd like to wait and see if we do indeed move towards making mining dungeons as it would be easier to sneak some review of their distribution in there. But there are so many things to think about before we even decide wether that is viable or not. My main issue would be that miners shouldn't be safe in some instanced space. I don't praise can-flipping in any way, but I think that's an integral part of EVE. Space is lonely enough as it is and I don't think anyone would be done a favour by being allowed to sit in space and mine without ever seeing another person. And so and so on.
Just thought I'd throw it out there seeing as it's Friday. I know it's nothing new as it's been mentioned before. And that doesn't solve the problem of T1 loot refining into everything you can dream off. That would also need to be addressed before any redistribution would have a meaningful effect.
The following has been he opinion and rumormongering of a Database Developer and should in no way be construed as a promise or even a glimpse of things to come. It's main purpose is speculation and discourse.
~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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ingenting
20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: ingenting on 05/09/2008 17:51:46 Edited by: ingenting on 05/09/2008 17:49:34
Originally by: CCP Prism X Revamping the mineral distribution has been on my wishlist since I was messing with the drone regions. I've talked about it with a fair number of people and there are mixed opinions about it.
...
If you remember the flack I got for deleting containers, think about the artillery bombardment from all the miners having their source of income upset like that.
Like adding drone regions didn't crash people's source of income? I think that's enough to make those 'fair number of people' to see that something has to be done ASAP. __________
Quote: Welcome to EVE, remember to insu *BAAOOM*... Told you, newb.
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CCP Prism X their hard work just because I wanna. If you remember the flack I got for deleting containers, think about the artillery bombardment from all the miners having their source of income upset like that.
If you replace the Veldspar in Amarr with Scordite I will buy all the beer you can drink at FanFest.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
That's not the only variable though. There have been talks about removing belts as static objects and turn them into some sort of dungeons.
Not sure how I got it in my head, but I had pictured the revamped belts as huge (as in stretching for many many grids) beasties. I imagined one incarnation as a replacement for the rings around a planet. Eve could really use a bit more in the way of things that seem vast. Well, besides space.
The eve "dungeons" are ok, but they've never really rung my bell. They've always felt a bit like odd little rooms instead of a seamless part of a system. Probably more a perception caused by the cosmetics of the dungeons. Nerf particle clouds imo. /shrug Maybe that's just me.
Originally by: CCP Prism X
and free up a range of IDs we could use for other stuff.
Surely you're not hurting for IDs....?
Originally by: CCP Prism X
The following has been he opinion and rumormongering of a Database Developer and should in no way be construed as a promise or even a glimpse of things to come. It's main purpose is speculation and discourse.
Always cool.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Personally I'd like to ensure that no region of space is self-sufficient when it comes to minerals availability. I am, however, quite certain that this is not a very popular opinion. That in it self is one of the main factors of me not ranting and raving about this until I get time to look at this. People have taken their time to map out belts and plan operations and then I come along and nuke all their hard work just because I wanna. If you remember the flack I got for deleting containers, think about the artillery bombardment from all the miners having their source of income upset like that.
While it might be a good idea on the long run for trading, the idea of having to do more logistic to have supplies of every mineral doesn't really hold much appeal to me. It's not as if you don't already have enough on our plates with pos fuel, T2 things, and tritanium/mexallon, after all.
Quote:
That's not the only variable though. There have been talks about removing belts as static objects and turn them into some sort of dungeons. I'm very fond of this idea as it will remove a whole lot of items from the database and free up a range of IDs we could use for other stuff. It would also make it a lot simpler to author and maintain the distribution based on whatever we want. It would become more of a loot table in the sense that some variables of your position and possible corporation that hands you the mining job dictate what minerals will spawn. Way easier to tweak than the current system which is millions upon millions of data base objects which are essentially denormalized between many tables and there's no real guarantee that they'll conform between servers as they are not a part of any static data (as their definitions are volatile due to mining).
So I'd like to wait and see if we do indeed move towards making mining dungeons as it would be easier to sneak some review of their distribution in there.
But there are so many things to think about before we even decide wether that is viable or not. My main issue would be that miners shouldn't be safe in some instanced space. I don't praise can-flipping in any way, but I think that's an integral part of EVE. Space is lonely enough as it is and I don't think anyone would be done a favour by being allowed to sit in space and mine without ever seeing another person. And so and so on.
You're certainly right about that. A dynamisation of the belts would have to include all sort of other changes (scanner revamping, at least).
Yet there is one change that wouldn't require excessive work, I think, would remove mineral compression more effectively than any volume nerf ever could, wouldn't have many negative side-effects, and could be a temporary fix or part of the long-term answer: Simply replace the 0.0 common roids (those no one ever mine), by new roids giving about 3 times as much than high-sec roids.
Pros:
- Remove much of the mineral compression by removing the need for it.
- Boost most of the 0.0 systems who don't have any bistot/crokite/arkonor. Right now all those belts are just worthless from a miner POV, you could find the same ores in a 0.5. That is just wrong.
- Creating new ores shouldn't be hard, you did it for mining missions. Replacing the database values, now that might take some serious computing power, but I'm pretty sure the community would be pretty happy to have a 24H downtime for a change like that.
- Nerf the income of macro-miners in high-sec by nerfing the demand on high-sec imported trit.
- Boost 0.0's attractiveness.
- ? Cons:
- Nerf the income of regular high-sec miners.
- Need to create some more BPOs for rorqual compression.
- ?
The same could be done with low-sec with, say, ores giving double the current minerals, etc...
Imho this would be a perfect fix, while we wait for you CCP to decide on how you want it on hte long run... ------------------------------------------
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CogInTheWheel
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
If you replace the Veldspar in Amarr with Scordite I will buy all the beer you can drink at FanFest.
I don't know how Chribba would react to such an occurrence.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.05 19:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 Not sure how I got it in my head, but I had pictured the revamped belts as huge (as in stretching for many many grids) beasties. I imagined one incarnation as a replacement for the rings around a planet. Eve could really use a bit more in the way of things that seem vast. Well, besides space.
It is probably because "system wide asteroid belts" has been on the "one day" page on this site for a long long time.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Phoenix Noir
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Posted - 2008.09.05 19:10:00 -
[11]
Prospecting is synonymous in some ways with mineral exploration which is an organized, large scale and at least semi-scientific effort undertaken by mineral resource companies to find commercially viable ore deposits. -wiki
Exploration = Mining does not compute *Tszzz..chh..* *starts smoking*
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.05 19:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CCP Prism X awesome awesome awesome win win win
Prism for de... oh, wait, nvm. |
Drakolus
Amarr Dopehead Industries FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.09.05 19:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Drakolus on 05/09/2008 19:35:15 Arrgh, forums ate my post.
Shorter version...
What if Items (guns, mods, ships, etc) were made from components? Each line of mods/items would require specific types of compents such as Weapon components for guns, structural for armor/hull, high grade electronics for ECM/ECCM and ship components for well duh, ships.
Items could be reprocessed into components but components cannot be reprocessed into minerals once built. This would allow specialization in production and return mining, alloys and hauler spawns to primary sources of minerals. Rarity of the higher end components would generally assure that they have to be built from minerals to produce useful mods/ships. Plus weapons when reprocessed give you weapon components (only) so no building an Abaddon from passive targetters or what not.
Please critique, flame, evaluate and improve on this idea and maybe it can make it to the CSM forum.
(The majority of this idea comes from Neocron back when it was a half way decent game so I can't claim total originality)
*edited cause I forgot a minor item and jeebus the forums are beating the hell out of me today |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.09.05 19:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: CCP Prism X their hard work just because I wanna. If you remember the flack I got for deleting containers, think about the artillery bombardment from all the miners having their source of income upset like that.
If you replace the Veldspar in Amarr with Scordite I will buy all the beer you can drink at FanFest.
Chribba is now waiting for you in a dark alley |
Gridwalker
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:36:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
That's not the only variable though. There have been talks about removing belts as static objects and turn them into some sort of dungeons. I'm very fond of this idea as it will remove a whole lot of items from the database and free up a range of IDs we could use for other stuff.
Personally, I think a great stop-gap measure would be to simply cut the number of asteroids by one third, but triple their size.
I've always liked the idea of turning the static belts into exploration sites, but exploration needs some "tuning" first. The interface for it is clumsy, and the almost total lack of feedback while you're doing it is mind-numbing.
-Grid
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Siri Blue
Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.09.05 21:10:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Siri Blue on 05/09/2008 21:11:09 When we speak about risk versus reward... I am getting cold chills when I looke at the Empire LP shops (all kind of neat modules and the like) and then look at the 0.0 Pirate faction LP shops (no modules at all)...the 0.0 missioners have been totally neglected for the past 2 years... No lvl 5 missions out here and no modules in the LP shops...oh yeah and we got the SAME crap new missions empire dwellers also got... Empire mission runner = completely safe NPC 0.0 mission runner = definitely not so safe Now why do we get the same crap missions with the same crap loot??!??!?!? If you talk about risk versus reward, also look into that please.
As for minerals and Ore...we got nothing here in Venal btw...hermorphite or such, jaspet and veldspar...not really 0.0 ORE, don't you think? :) It's really time the Guristas Babes get some love :)
Thanks for reading my 2 cents Siri P.S.: I wouldn't mind a Pirate Faction Carrier for 5 million loyalty points either...
P.P.S.: And yes, please introduce the system spanning asteroid belts finally...the ones where you actually have to scan each asteroid for good ore...where the asteroids are NOT labeled for what they have inside already...
Re-Introduce Non-ISK-Mission rewards, please. |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.05 21:42:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Soporo on 05/09/2008 21:43:23 Just stop mining with guns Prism, please. And of course the Drone regions was the biggest miner nerf ever, not to mention LowSec nerf.
Miners should be the biggest and best source of minerals.
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.09.05 21:45:00 -
[18]
I've always been in favor of removing tech1 loot from missions and rats. They can still drop meta modules, but pure tech1 loot should go... it's good for nothing but reprocessing in the largest number of cases, and in the few others it is just swamping the market with stuff that new players might want to try a hand in producing. But they can't, because mission loot is available cheaper.
Pros: - Less mineral production in highsec - may cause interesting things to happen with the mineral market in general, such as: ---> high ends rise in price a lot, keeping the lowend prices down even if supply shortens ---> miners in lowsec/0.0 become more important and can earn more, adjusting the skewed risk/reward balance ---> might drive more macro miners out of highsec, into areas where they can be hunted and killed - Opportunities for new players to enter tech1 production - Less money for highsec mission runners, adjusting the skewed risk/reward balance
Cons: - ...less money for mission runners, seen from the other end of the nerfbat - AFK mining veldspar is no longer as good a way to earn ISK (onoes!) - Unsure what increased highend mineral prices might do to ISK value... ask the Doctor about it?
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Marsman37X
Amarr Alder Space Pioneers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Personally I'd like to ensure that no region of space is self-sufficient when it comes to minerals availability.[/i]
This is genius, promote this man! |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:03:00 -
[20]
You know Prism, sometimes you start talking and I start thinking I need another job. You don't happen to need a data warehouser that's very familiar with getting the most out of a database do you? Come on, my single instance DB is 3.5TB and I boast a mean query return time of just over 2 seconds on extremely modest hardeware.
(Eh, maybe I'm crazy and just need to see things from Yahoo's 2PB single instance DB perspective...)
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
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Mistress Luck
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 05/09/2008 17:54:39 Personally I'd like to ensure that no region of space is self-sufficient when it comes to minerals availability. I am, however, quite certain that this is not a very popular opinion. That in it self is one of the main factors of me not ranting and raving about this until I get time to look at this. People have taken their time to map out belts and plan operations and then I come along and nuke all their hard work just because I wanna. If you remember the flack I got for deleting containers, think about the artillery bombardment from all the miners having their source of income upset like that. [/i]
If you can come up with good reasons for removing mineral self-sufficiency from regions that would help promote the gameplay you envision for EVE, then please dont worry about justifying those reasons or worry about upsetting individuals. Right now the entire mineral market is in upheaval. Besides, if anything a restructure would be an opportunity for people willing to put in an effort to get in early, get the best data possible and make a lot of money.
My thoughts:
I like the idea of removing regional mineral self-sufficiency as it would promote an incredible amount of trade between regions. If ever the ability to compress ore comes to high sec it would be an excellent time to implement this as well.
I am strongly supportive of any move to remove all loot drops from missions. Lvl 1 and 2 missions should keep loot T1 loot drops as new players do use those modules. Lvl 3 and higher should have the non-named items removed. My trader picks that stuff up for nothing, because it is worth nothing. It is picked up for less than the cost of the component minerals purely for reprocessing. Getting rid of those modules might mean profits can be made manufacturing T1 modules. And that is very nice to beginner manufacturers.
I dont like the idea of mining in dungeons. I like the risk involved in mining as it is. And it can be nice to share a belt with other random miners. Mining in belts also adds freedom in the same way that ratting has more freedom associated with it than mission running. I like that feeling of just hopping from belt to belt until you find a nice one to settle into.
It sounds to me like your desire to create mining dungeons stems mainly from the ability to play with the availability of minerals from behind the scenes. I cant speak for anyone else, but an even more managed economy is exactly what I dont want. I am already upset enough at the existence of insurance payout on ships because of their effect on basket prices.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mistress Luck I am strongly supportive of any move to remove all loot drops from missions.
This would actually really annoy me. I rely on running missions to finance and build my next wave of PVP ships. Really, please don't make me grind more... the game has enough of it FFS.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: CCP Prism X dungeons
*shudder*
COMPLEXES ....please.
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mistress Luck I am strongly supportive of any move to remove all loot drops from missions.
This would actually really annoy me. I rely on running missions to finance and build my next wave of PVP ships. Really, please don't make me grind more... the game has enough of it FFS.
-Liang
What if you could make the same amount of isk as what you currently do, even despite the lack of loot, if you worked with a corporation and did those missions in losec?
Would it still bother you as much?
Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ishina Fel I've always been in favor of removing tech1 loot from missions and rats. They can still drop meta modules, but pure tech1 loot should go... it's good for nothing but reprocessing in the largest number of cases, and in the few others it is just swamping the market with stuff that new players might want to try a hand in producing. But they can't, because mission loot is available cheaper.
Very, very good point.
Also, what Prism said is made of a lot of 'win', per se. That 'dynamic belts' option is something I've always been a big fan of. It would throw some more thinking into mining. Particularly hi-sec mining. ----------
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:18:00 -
[26]
AFAIK, CCP Prism, the belts being changed from static objects into dungeons was scrapped and said dungeons were turned into Exploration and cosmic anonmalies. The problem ws that it eliminated killing ratters (which are hard enough to catch as it is) Belts could use a total revamp, but there are lots of other pressing issues that are more important.
I'm all in favor of actual mineral distribution, refining mission loot puts out so much mid tier minerals that they have crashed and made low sec mining (and high sec mining to a degree) pointless. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ruze
What if you could make the same amount of isk as what you currently do, even despite the lack of loot, if you worked with a corporation and did those missions in losec?
Would it still bother you as much?
I already run missions in lowsec. And I already work with a corporation, not that you'd know it.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
ingenting
20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:50:00 -
[28]
Edited by: ingenting on 05/09/2008 22:53:22
Originally by: Mistress Luck I dont like the idea of mining in dungeons. I like the risk involved in mining as it is. And it can be nice to share a belt with other random miners. Mining in belts also adds freedom in the same way that ratting has more freedom associated with it than mission running. I like that feeling of just hopping from belt to belt until you find a nice one to settle into.
Then what about keeping the crappy ore (veld, scord) in crappy belts as they are now, and move the better to dungeons/plexes/whatever, and also make it actually a bit more interesting to mine (someone posted some cool thoughts about HUGE, realistic, long belts that u actually had to move around in, with a small 'rat base', scan each rock.) __________
Quote: Welcome to EVE, remember to insu *BAAOOM*... Told you, newb.
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Clair Bear Best un-nerf to everyone: make drones drop moon minerals instead of megatons of highends. Done.
Ohhhh man, that would **** a lot of people off. I like it!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.06 06:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Clair Bear Best un-nerf to everyone: make drones drop moon minerals instead of megatons of highends. Done.
What about high sec drone missions?
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
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