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Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
56
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think we need a subcap that can effectively apply the hurt to capital ships, to further scare the darn things away from trying to shoot at subcap fleets. But I don't buy in to any 'little frigate capital-bomber' ideas. If you want the huge hurt, you gotta pay the huge cost.
I'm thinking a tech 2 version of the tier 3 battleships--this baby will cost more than a marauder, it'll probably cost somewhere in between a carrier and a dreadnought.
I'm thinking they should have 3 high slots, 2 turret hardpoints, and bonuses that allow them to fit capital turrets and siege modules. They would have a fuel bay for siege fuel, but no jump drive (their advantage is having subcap mobility!) They would have both skill bonuses toward the turrets and toward defense. They would not be glass cannons, but rather their lack of high slots means they're only powerful when using capital turrets, so the lack of tracking already makes up for that. Finally, they would have a decent-sized drone bay for protection, but not so large as to be used offensively against small targets.
Here's an example: Apollyon Hull: Abaddon 3 high power slots, 2 turret hardpoints 7 medium power slots, 4 low power slots 17000 MW powergrid, 380 tf CPU 125m3 drone bay, 75mbps drone bandwidth 1250m3 liquid ozone bay Siege Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret rate of fire per level. Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret optimal range and 5% armor resistance per level. Role bonus: -95% reduction in Capital Turret and Siege Module powergrid needs. -50% reduction in Capital Turret capacitor cost. -50% reduction liquid ozone consumption for Siege Module activation and -50% reduction in Siege Module duration. Note: can fit capital turrets and siege modules. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
Digital Messiah
Claymore Inc
145
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
and what happens when people start using them to alpha in pvp or insta own frieghters and orca's in high sec? Sure they can't track a moving target but when they are webbed and as big as a barn. Well that is a different story all together.
Plus if you are going to make them super expensive why not just work around the ships that are already in the game. Rather than creating a whole new tier dedicated to high sec ganking and alpha pvp. Much like they already did with tier 3 battlecruisers. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" Enter a Heroic Era Today |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
229
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
All battleships are already capable of applying the hurt to capital ships. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3473
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Blops with bomb launchers
Nuff said.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
57
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:and what happens when people start using them to alpha in pvp or insta own frieghters and orca's in high sec?
Fixed, though I don't see a problem with using them for ganks, considering the price. But CCP doesn't allow dreadnoughts to fire in highsec so these shouldn't either. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
198
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
I like the idea. Though I like the idea of slowish bombers carrying citadel torps for hit and run tactics on caps better. Introduce a new type of torp: high damage vs caps and slow moving. Make it killable by small weapons. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
57
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:Make it killable by small weapons. As neat as it sounds, it just sounds too unreasonable for a torpedo to specifically be weak to small weapons. Maybe, though, a stealth bomber's bomb launcher could be fit with a torpedo bomb that would fly F.O.F. to the nearest in-flight capital torpedo and pop it.
But the ships I'm proposing are already hit-and-run anyway. They have a huge reduction in the siege timer so they can cancel it quickly if they need to get out of there. And they don't take all that long to align. Also, they have less room for ammo and liquid ozone than a dreadnought so they can't siege for as long. So they're mostly burstfire ships.
2 minutes might seem like a long time, but in capital combat 2 minutes is within the blink of an eye. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
TriadSte
3rd Division
61
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:1665.8 DPS output with max skills, beam lasers, multifrequency ammo, tech 1 siege module, and no bonuses from modules
-edit- The capital turrets would not be allowed to fire in highsec and/or would be deactivated by CONCORD.
A Vindicator already has this number, and is as expensive as a dread/carrier.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3404
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
nope "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
57
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Posted - 2012.03.26 09:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
TriadSte wrote:A Vindicator already has this number, and is as expensive as a dread/carrier.
Actually a Vindicator with max skills, tech 2 425mm railguns, antimatter ammo, and no bonuses from modules gets 440.2 dps. With tech 2 neutron blasters, it would get 649.4 dps, but that's irrelevant because I was listing dps for a long range setup.
My Apollyon would get 2769.1 dps with tech 1 (meta 0) pulse lasers. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
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Terminal Insanity
The Filthy Ones
410
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Posted - 2012.03.26 09:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Agreeing with OP. all capital fights should be fought vs other capitals only, and as a deterrent, subcaps should be able to kill capitals with ease
Anyways, back to mining i go "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
263
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Posted - 2012.03.27 01:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:and what happens when people start using them to alpha in pvp or insta own frieghters and orca's in high sec?
I'd clap.
Save the Miners! |
Kiandoshia
Gnampf Inc.
23
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Posted - 2012.03.27 01:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
I think the kickback (do you even call it that on ship mounted weapons) generated when firing these rather huge weapons, that are in some cases, half the size of a battleship would send any ship the size of a mere battleship spinning off into a nearby planet/startgate/station/ship/any other object.
I guess it could be fun to watch =D |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles Warden.
32
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Posted - 2012.03.27 01:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:TriadSte wrote:A Vindicator already has this number, and is as expensive as a dread/carrier.
Actually a Vindicator with max skills, tech 2 425mm railguns, antimatter ammo, and no bonuses from modules gets 440.2 dps. With tech 2 neutron blasters, it would get 649.4 dps, but that's irrelevant because I was listing dps for a long range setup. My Apollyon would get 2769.1 dps with tech 1 (meta 0) pulse lasers. I'd like to further add that the Vindicator is a hybrid platform, and blasters are the highest dps turret. The Gallente version of the ship type I'm proposing would get 3807.4 dps with the same max skill empty setup. That's 765% more dps than a Vindicator.
Are... are you real? 649.4 dps, on a Vindie.
Enjoy your shitfits.
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Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
146
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Posted - 2012.03.27 01:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:TriadSte wrote:A Vindicator already has this number, and is as expensive as a dread/carrier.
Actually a Vindicator with max skills, tech 2 425mm railguns, antimatter ammo, and no bonuses from modules gets 440.2 dps. With tech 2 neutron blasters, it would get 649.4 dps, but that's irrelevant because I was listing dps for a long range setup. My Apollyon would get 2769.1 dps with tech 1 (meta 0) pulse lasers. I'd like to further add that the Vindicator is a hybrid platform, and blasters are the highest dps turret. The Gallente version of the ship type I'm proposing would get 3807.4 dps with the same max skill empty setup. That's 765% more dps than a Vindicator. Are... are you real? 649.4 dps, on a Vindie. Enjoy your shitfits. My fitting window shows just a hair over 2k dps with my vindi fit :D
Also as it stands we need more reasons to field caps against subcaps, not the other way around. SUPERcaps are OP in the current metagame, but there isn't really much reason to field normal capitals when they do poorly against subcaps, and supercaps eat them. |
Katsami
The Drunken Empire Fatal Ascension
3
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Posted - 2012.03.27 01:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Welpcanes.
Thousands of them. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
66
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Posted - 2012.03.27 02:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kiandoshia wrote:I think the kickback (do you even call it that on ship mounted weapons) generated when firing these They could be recoilless design. Of course, that would make them look different. They'd also do less damage, so you'd need to have more of them. And then the art department can have a fun time with that. Or we can just accept that it's doable and not overthink the mechanics.
Aestivalis Saidrian and Cambarus, you both fail at reading. Go find your mistake before I have to point it out to you and make you look like idiots. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
sakurako
Eternal Darkness. G00DFELLAS
4
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Posted - 2012.03.27 02:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
now if only tere was a place to post ideas, now wouldn't that be great |
Lord Aliventi
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2012.03.27 02:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
I don't think it would be effective. There are really 2 types of Caps: Carriers and dreads (titans are under the dreads category. Just go with it for the sake of the example).
Carriers Good: Logistics, movement. Bad: only about 1000 DPS. (BS can easily go voer 1k DPS)
Supercarriers: Good: 10,000 DPS, movement Bad: No Logi bonus
Dreadnaughts: Good: Lots of DPS (upwards of 10,000+ depending on ship and fit) Bad: No mobility (can't perfectly track with MWDing supers), can't recieve reps in siege
Titans: Good: Lot's of anti-cap DPS Bad: No support = dead titan
Now the issue is dreads are great at killing caps, but a MWDing super can speed-tank most of the DPS. (Try it out. It's annoying for dread pilots) And dreads can't be repped. So once they siege they are on their own for 5 minutes.
What we really need is a ship that can move, receive reps, and apply a considerable amount of DPS. (3000-3500 would be good) ?Ship name? Good: Movement, can be repped, no siege module Bad: not as much DPS as a dread. (1/3 as much DPS. Win in large numbers)
So you can drop a bunch of these, have them apply DPS, and have carriers to rep them. But you will need far more of them compared to straight up dreads. Make that and I have a feeling it would work. Good luck. And post in the right forum section. |
Zi'Boo
Zi'Corp
29
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Posted - 2012.03.27 03:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
It's clear the OP has never sat or fought in a capital ship.
First of all - caps use stront (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Strontium_Clathrates) and not liquid ozone for their siege modules. Second of all - going into siege mode makes you immobile for the whole duration, so what sub cap mobility are we talking about in here? After all dreads and caps in general are much easier to move around than subcaps, and once on battlefield if you can't move you might as well be in a proper dread instead of this BS (price would be the same).
Now for some smaller issues: - abbadon hull with 7 mids and 4 lows with an armor tank bonus?
Even if you decide that this ship has a special bonus that allows it to move under siege with capital turret tracking you'll outtrack yourself if you start to move anyway.
If you really want to go with subcap capital killers you'd pretty much need to go with the bigger bomber route or a small supercarrier (capable of launching fighter bombers) as missiles are the only missile system that doesn't include the attackers speed into damage calculations. |
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ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
20
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Posted - 2012.03.27 07:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
If there only was a shipclass that could fit battleship guns and still remain relatively fast and have a small signature radius. Yet still be easily gankable by smaller ships to compensate for its power.
A cruiser that could do battle or something.
In other news: Ship Balancing at Fanfest 2011 |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
72
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Posted - 2012.03.27 07:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Battleship with a single XL turret and very good tank.
Gives players in High-sec and lower wormholes a better ship to blow up a pos.
Gives non-capital players a better ship to counter capital ships. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
EnslaverOfMinmatar
BRAPELILLE MACRO BOT MINERS
24
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Posted - 2012.03.27 08:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:TriadSte wrote:A Vindicator already has this number, and is as expensive as a dread/carrier.
Actually a Vindicator with max skills, tech 2 425mm railguns, antimatter ammo, and no bonuses from modules gets 440.2 dps. With tech 2 neutron blasters, it would get 649.4 dps, but that's irrelevant because I was listing dps for a long range setup. My Apollyon would get 2769.1 dps with tech 1 (meta 0) pulse lasers. I'd like to further add that the Vindicator is a hybrid platform, and blasters are the highest dps turret. The Gallente version of the ship type I'm proposing would get 3807.4 dps with the same max skill empty setup. That's 765% more dps than a Vindicator.
Quoted so everyone can laugh at you before you erase it. Every EVE player must read this http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-01-07 or uninstall and DIAF |
Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
66
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Posted - 2012.03.27 11:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zi'Boo wrote:First of all - caps use stront ([link]http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Strontium_Clathrates[/link]) and not liquid ozone for their siege modules. I thought I was making a mistake. I should have looked it up. Anyhow, that's not evidence I haven't flown one, it's a phenomenon known as a brain fart. Evidence I haven't flown one would be revealed on my eveboard page ([link]http://eveboard.com/pilot/Reaver_Glitterstim[/link]) where you can see that I do not have the skills to fly one of those ships.
Zi'Boo wrote:Second of all - going into siege mode makes you immobile for the whole duration, so what sub cap mobility are we talking about in here? After all dreads and caps in general are much easier to move around than subcaps, and once on battlefield if you can't move you might as well be in a proper dread instead of this BS (price would be the same). I did mention that the siege module duration would be much lower; also subcaps align to warp much faster. So it would not take nearly as long to get them out of there. I was only guessing at the mobility required to fix the problem, I need input to further refine the idea.
Zi'Boo wrote:Now for some smaller issues: - abbadon hull with 7 mids and 4 lows with an armor tank bonus?
Even if you decide that this ship has a special bonus that allows it to move under siege with capital turret tracking you'll outtrack yourself if you start to move anyway. I figured it doesn't need to move while sieged.
Zi'Boo wrote:If you really want to go with subcap capital killers you'd pretty much need to go with the bigger bomber route or a small supercarrier (capable of launching fighter bombers) as missiles are the only missile system that doesn't include the attackers speed into damage calculations. I think the problem is that capitals and supercapitals have too high a max velocity. Even without propulsion modules they coast nearly as fast as battleships that aren't using propulsion modules (though they get less bonus from props). They clearly have little use for this propulsion other than speed tanking, and so I believe that capital max velocity should be cut way down. It is not possible for dreadnoughts to match a target's velocity while in siege mode. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles Warden.
33
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Posted - 2012.03.27 16:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Kiandoshia wrote:I think the kickback (do you even call it that on ship mounted weapons) generated when firing these Aestivalis Saidrian and Cambarus, you both fail at reading. Go find your mistake before I have to point it out to you and make you look like idiots.
No, the real question is why the **** do we need this lol battleship that costs as much as you want when it already exists today. No, this ship would be T3 BC of Wormholes, fly around and **** whatever you find in hilarious suicide ganks.
Kinda like Tornados in Highsec.
Non-bling Subcaps soloing Dreads and Carriers would already make them worse off then they are now. I don't have a problem with Bhaalgorns and Vindies soloing Carriers and Dreads because they cost as much as them, so from an Isk standpoint, if you threw money at it, and they threw money at it, it evens out.
After all, if this ship is made, I ask the following.
Why should I buy and fly a Dreadnaught when I have access to these? I can travel in High Sec. I'm far more agile in Lowsec and Nullsec.
Why should I buy and fly a Carrier when one of these ships can do horrible things to the carrier alone? And if two show up with tackle, my ship gets obliterated.
Moms and Titans laugh at them if they go into siege mode, thereby invalidating what you want. Titan simply goes "Oh, thank you for sitting still." while the Mom just throws enough fighters at it so it goes away.
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Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
32
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Posted - 2012.03.27 16:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
I personally like the idea of a combat sentric gun capital, but as a capital ship. This was brought up earlier in the development forums. The idea of a lower tanked capital ship for guns, but actually usable out of siege. Similar to Tier 3 bc, they would be closer to T1 battleship performance and tanks, Actually, a bit more on tank simply due to module costs. Cap guns and citadels aren't that great against maneuverable fleets even with no siege so hopefully they would be able to be countered. Higher cost would make them a bit more specialized but allow vets to fly dps outside the logistics of carriers, or the locked into the ship of the supercaps.
As a capital, I would agree with a mobile XL weapon ship, but not a high sec capable battleship. If they want something for sieging poses, then they need siege barrage ships. Dessie, bc and bs that do the same few turrets and siege modules. |
Klown Walk
Black Rebel Rifter Club
60
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Posted - 2012.03.27 17:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
I could get more dps from 2 cruisers and for 60m. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
203
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Posted - 2012.03.27 17:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
you know i came up with the same idea in 08... but then thought that seige mod on a bs would be bad as bs's wont be able to tank the damage and will die real fast...
but if you made the eq of a t3 bc but for bs's... a ship the size of a frieghter that has 8 capital sized weapons but does not use a seige mod... example would be a galente one which would do around 26k alpha and 3500 dps...
so pretty much the ship would have the hp of a tier 3 bs but the damage of 3 tier 3 bs's.... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
203
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Posted - 2012.03.27 17:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:I personally like the idea of a combat sentric gun capital, but as a capital ship. This was brought up earlier in the development forums. The idea of a lower tanked capital ship for guns, but actually usable out of siege. Similar to Tier 3 bc, they would be closer to T1 battleship performance and tanks, Actually, a bit more on tank simply due to module costs. Cap guns and citadels aren't that great against maneuverable fleets even with no siege so hopefully they would be able to be countered. Higher cost would make them a bit more specialized but allow vets to fly dps outside the logistics of carriers, or the locked into the ship of the supercaps.
As a capital, I would agree with a mobile XL weapon ship, but not a high sec capable battleship. If they want something for sieging poses, then they need siege barrage ships. Dessie, bc and bs that do the same few turrets and siege modules.
umm yeah what this guy said...
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
496
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Posted - 2012.03.27 19:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
A Widow that could fit 6 bomb launchers would be pretty devastating. I'm not sure that would balance well at gate camps though. Maybe there needs to be a new kind of ammo for these BS... like maybe you could give a BS 2 citadel torp launchers. I'm liking the heavy glass cannon roll though. There is a need.
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