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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
172
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Posted - 2012.03.26 14:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have read many posts and opinions about how mining should be more productive when more player effort is involved.
I have also read many posts about how mining ships themselves have been made easier to gank. Since any ship can be ganked, this actually points to the risk vs reward ratio, which meets claims that risk has outgrown reward to the point where mining itself is a bizarre timesink, the least profitable in the game.
I counter with the suggestion that mining ships need no new defenses against PvP, but rather the PvP ships should need new risks when hunting miners who are in their proper areas. (Asteroid belts)
To this, I propose:
Drones. The big bad nasty ones called rogue by many. Horribly aggressive, and extremely dangerous.
They attack any ship that has a weapon system present. Swarm them to the point where running is the only practical response, as they cannot be overwhelmed due to their limitless numbers. PvP ships would want to avoid these areas for self preservation.
Here is the hook. Mining ships have no weapon systems, so the drones ignore them. The mining ship is like a clown fish protected by the sea anemone, to use an analogy.
It gets better, here is where being attentive and involved in mining gives you better results.
The drones are in the process of continually replenishing their numbers, so are mining the ores in the belt. They eject the ores into small pods, that are picked up after 5 minutes by automated hauler drones.
Mining ships can pick up these concentrated ore pods as bonuses, and boost their profits greatly as a result.
Why are mining ships benefiting, why not use just a hauler with a tractor beam, and clean up? Simple, the drones don't eject pods and mine at this faster pace UNLESS they detect the mining taking place in their local vicinity. A hauler, assuming it had no weapons, would find nothing to pick up unless a mining ship was present, and the drones had boosted production in response.
Why do the drones react this way? Noone knows. Maybe they hope to bribe the miner, or mistake his vessel as a control ship, and are trying to load it up. We only know they do not see the mining ship as hostile, since it has no weapon modules they view as hostile to them. |
Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.03.26 16:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ok, I give this a practical thumbs up.
While I liked the ideas about the asteroids becoming animated, and bouncing around, etc.... I can easily see how that might not be practical to actually put into live servers from scratch.
We already have rogue drones. The asteroids themselves can spawn these critters out, since they would be on the asteroids mining until they saw a target.Nikk Narrel wrote:Drones. The big bad nasty ones called rogue by many. Horribly aggressive, and extremely dangerous.
They attack any ship that has a weapon system present. Swarm them to the point where running is the only practical response, as they cannot be overwhelmed due to their limitless numbers. PvP ships would want to avoid these areas for self preservation.
Here is the hook. Mining ships have no weapon systems, so the drones ignore them. The mining ship is like a clown fish protected by the sea anemone, to use an analogy. They could show up as a swarm, or a few collectively big ships that are actually hive mind assemblies of smaller drones working together. (SciFi has lots of examples of that already)
And the idea that they see mining ships as non threatening, and consequently mistake them as friendly and in need of minerals... awesome. I would now have a reason to pay attention while mining to get these bonuses.Nikk Narrel wrote:The drones are in the process of continually replenishing their numbers, so are mining the ores in the belt. They eject the ores into small pods, that are picked up after 5 minutes by automated hauler drones.
Mining ships can pick up these concentrated ore pods as bonuses, and boost their profits greatly as a result.
Why are mining ships benefiting, why not use just a hauler with a tractor beam, and clean up? Simple, the drones don't eject pods and mine at this faster pace UNLESS they detect the mining taking place in their local vicinity. A hauler, assuming it had no weapons, would find nothing to pick up unless a mining ship was present, and the drones had boosted production in response. I assume it scales, more mining ships, more bonuses. |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
259
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Posted - 2012.03.26 17:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
The idea of rogue drones sounds splendid. However, I don't think it's a good idea to have them drop ore in pods for players to easily scoop up and run unless doing so triggers an aggression response from the drones. Also, rogue drones are not to be trusted. What if a few rogue drones decide to want to attack you for your scraps once the level of ores available in the belt starts to run out? At that point, you are competition to them for they need that ore to make more of them. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
173
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Posted - 2012.03.26 17:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:The idea of rogue drones sounds splendid. However, I don't think it's a good idea to have them drop ore in pods for players to easily scoop up and run unless doing so triggers an aggression response from the drones. Also, rogue drones are not to be trusted. What if a few rogue drones decide to want to attack you for your scraps once the level of ores available in the belt starts to run out? At that point, you are competition to them for they need that ore to make more of them. The logic is that the mechanic of using the rogue drones can be set to achieve two desired goals at the same time. The drones, because of their widespread nature, have no reason to fear competition from player miners. Responding to violent potential in weapon modules is a different issue, one they do react to.
Goal one: Mining ships should be less vulnerable when used as designed. Catch them in the open, and they are obviously pinatas ripe for the ganking, as has been demonstrated in game already. They deserve an aspect to their existence, however, that justifies their design and role performance beyond simply being gimped PvP targets. Being in a dangerous place, be it because of environmental hazards like asteroids bouncing around, or hostile due to the mysterious behavior of drones that went rogue... gives back a redeeming quality to mining ships.
Goal two: Mining should reward effort and participation. Being half AFK should never be the best way to do anything. Imagine if PvP were that dull too.... The drones popping out these pods are an incentive for miners to pay attention, and participate in the mining experience. Worried about bots? Keep the pods off the overview, but make them visually obvious so they can be clicked on in space. It could be comparable to the garbled text already in use to prevent automated systems from using web based forms. |
Spugg Galdon
Callidus Temple Forsaken.Empire
124
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Posted - 2012.03.26 19:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
The only thing that really annoys me about mining ships defenses is that they are utterly pathetic. There is a CCP video, called the butterfly effect Linkwhich shows a mining barge/exhumer under attack and was able to tank the attackers for long enough to receive help. This is utterly false in reality. It would be far better if these ships could tank for a short period and "call for help". If no one comes to help they die. If some one comes to help they have a chanc. Right now, these ships die in one volley |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
265
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Posted - 2012.03.27 02:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:There is a CCP video, called the butterfly effect which shows a mining barge/exhumer under attack and was able to tank the attackers for long enough to receive help. This is utterly false in reality. It would be far better if these ships could tank for a short period and "call for help". If no one comes to help they die. If some one comes to help they have a chanc. Right now, these ships die in one volley
I use to mine in 0.0 space in my Hulk and I survived being attacked by a stealth bomber who, for some reason, decided to use missiles instead of a bomb on me. Help came just in time. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
177
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Posted - 2012.03.27 16:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:There is a CCP video, called the butterfly effect which shows a mining barge/exhumer under attack and was able to tank the attackers for long enough to receive help. This is utterly false in reality. It would be far better if these ships could tank for a short period and "call for help". If no one comes to help they die. If some one comes to help they have a chanc. Right now, these ships die in one volley I use to mine in 0.0 space in my Hulk and I survived being attacked by a stealth bomber who, for some reason, decided to use missiles instead of a bomb on me. Help came just in time. Stealth ships should try to avoid asteroid belts, for the simple reason that active mining produces clouds of debris that should be all over, and any ship on grid with them should expect to have this dust cloud interfere with cloaking. |
Astroniomix
EliteTroll
20
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Posted - 2012.03.27 17:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Henry Haphorn wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:There is a CCP video, called the butterfly effect which shows a mining barge/exhumer under attack and was able to tank the attackers for long enough to receive help. This is utterly false in reality. It would be far better if these ships could tank for a short period and "call for help". If no one comes to help they die. If some one comes to help they have a chanc. Right now, these ships die in one volley I use to mine in 0.0 space in my Hulk and I survived being attacked by a stealth bomber who, for some reason, decided to use missiles instead of a bomb on me. Help came just in time. Stealth ships should try to avoid asteroid belts, for the simple reason that active mining produces clouds of debris that should be all over, and any ship on grid with them should expect to have this dust cloud interfere with cloaking. Acutaly as it is now you stand a good chance of being decloaked by the rocks when warping into the belt. |
Anshu Zephyran
Children of Armok
6
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Posted - 2012.03.28 00:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
And just to make them really nasty, give these Rogue Drones the Sleeper AI. |
Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian Pinked
48
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Posted - 2012.03.28 00:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
I like this idea. I used to be a miner, but now I only do it if there is a Corp/Alliance Op going on. Even if their is, normally I just run security for the mining vessels as my Procurer doesn't mine **** compared to the Hulk-Blob Real Caldari Hull Tank (And Win doing so) Support https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16580 |
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Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2012.03.28 01:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
you are taking away a role thats should be there.....
I think yes the rogue drones at the belt should attack Combat ships because they pos a threat. The drones should still keep coming. wave after wave. On the hand if there is not combat ship then they should turn on the miners as they are advance electronics to harvest.
This would entertain a PVP or PVE guard to be at the belt with the miners as he now way to assits in the op or if the drones drop bounties instead, the PVP/PVE Pilot would be able to earn isk guarding miners at the same profit and risk at mining complexs
The waves should get larger the more players that are in the belt so more guards are required and can enjoy a isk grinding machine while guarding the Miners....
What is at risk, their ships and the miners they protect.
This way we preserve and make the role of the Mining guard useful and profitable. I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Engineer Floyd
Team Kampy
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 03:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
This is a cool idea, but I don't think it's the right way to go.
I think that if you're mining in a dangerous area, than you should have a friend or three in combat ships ready for a fight. The problem we need to solve is this: How do you make those Combat pilots want to sit in space doing nothing for an indefinte period, just in case an interesting fight might break out? I would enjoy it because I'd just chat with fleetmates, but I don't think that would be the norm.
You can't really solve this by just making mining more profitable, because a lot of combat pilots already have their isk figured out. I think there needs to be something for those Pilots to do while they're on patrol duty.
I do have one idea. What if the spawn rate/quality of rats was tied to the total mass of mining ships in the belt? This would give the protection something to shoot at and encourage them with the prospect of a good drop.
The only problem I can see with this is that the NPCs would have to bug out when hostile players show up, or the defenders would have to fight two sets of bad guys.
What do you think? |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
85
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Posted - 2012.03.28 04:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
How about Triage mode for mining barges? increasing the defenses?
How about triage mode and remote shield transfer bonus for orcas and rorquals?
Or maybe a BS sized Minning barge with a little PVP capability, like more Tank and warp core strength bonus (Like a blockade runer).
I don't know why minning barges are so fragile...There are tons of rocks that could collide with them, they should have more shields.... |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
178
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Clearing a misconception before it becomes too dominant in this idea: This will not make mining barges immune to being attacked.
This will make them harder to attack in asteroid belts. Short of coordinated action by multiple pilots, belts should be safely off the menu of ganking options.
This still leaves the mining ships needing transports, orcas, or rorquals. These, in addition to the mining ships, need to travel between points for the purposes of hauling ore as well as traveling to and from an op mining itself.
Gates, as well as POS's, suddenly become targets when you know miners are active in a belt, as they must eventually go to these, and their hauling support must travel repeatedly. These locations need the defense support more than ever, since the belts are less likely to be attacked in this idea.
More destruction and explosions take place, once a defensive group shows up to handle an attacking group. Except instead of a one sided ambush, a more enjoyable fight between capable PvP ships takes place. |
Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
38
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Posted - 2012.03.28 17:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Clearing a misconception before it becomes too dominant in this idea: This will not make mining barges immune to being attacked. That clown fish analogy clicks here pretty well. Like these fish, the mining craft would be vulnerable when outside of their safe areas.
Unlike the fish, the mining and support ships need to go other places. That ore cannot stay in the belts and be useful.
Like gate camps, there are predictable places these ships end up heading to. It just means more effort will be needed to gank miners.
They are still flying pinatas... they just need to be worked more to pop.
My fav part is still the bonuses for paying attention to mining, making it more interactive with these pods. |
Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
159
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Posted - 2012.03.28 19:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hmmm I like this idea. It will certainly help protect miners against solo pilots or a small groups of small ships but still leaves them vulnerable to coordinated attacks.
The bonus idea is a maybe. It depends on how frequently these pods spawn or how much is in them.
But yeah I like this idea, if only because it's the first reasonable mining buff idea (most intend on making miners borderline invincible) that I have seen in a while. |
Ghazbaran
Gravity Core
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 21:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
I like this Idea very much For belts. Drones don't attack miners in belts, etc. ALL as was said before
To get better yield in low / null sec the following could be done
Anomalies could have a type of hybrid of ratting and mining
Why not make it so that there is an effect for cycle time, say 50% less cycle time for harvesters and 60% range, in the anomalies ( this is because sites will be very intense !!! )
instead of the drones not attacking miners, let the drones attack everything. Someone said Sleeper AI... Sounds Nice... Lets get LOGISTICS in there too so the hulks won't die, make it a well rounded event. New arrivals on the site spawn more drones that will attack specifically that target until the sleeper AI kick's in.
LET THE DRONES COME OUT IN WAVES
EACH WAVE COMES OUT WHEN A ROID IS POPPED OR THE WAVE IS KILLED, SO THESE ROIDS SHOULD BE SMALL LETS SAY 2 CYCLES TO DEPLETE ONE.
A TIME LIMIT FOR THOSE INTELLIGENT PLAYERS THAT TARGET DIFFERENT ROIDS. IF A ROID HASN'T POPPED IN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME MORE DRONES SPAWN !!!
Drones do not drop loot but give out bounties
ORE CAN BE LEFT IN CANS AND PICKED UP BY HAULERS AFTER THE ANOMALY HAS DE-SPAWNED JUST LIKE SALVAGERS ALREADY CAN.
" ADD IDEA HERE "
- To be able to get this done you need military and industry in a similar level.
- For example if you have industry level 3 but military level 5, then only level 3 hybrid sites will appear
- Doing these sites will raise Both military and industry at the same time but at half speed
This might get more people in one spot interacting with each other and be able to defend when an attack comes as well as get more isk mining and ratting for everyone.
This will get people to be active while mining since I think it should be Like a "war" ( very intense and edge of your seat ) where you keep the miners alive to get the prize.
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AstarothPrime
Eternal Profiteers Persona Non Gratis
5
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Posted - 2012.03.28 22:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
So basically whatya suggesting is - make drone region even safer for miners then 1.0 space AND let it drop additional minerals to anyone present to just scoop up...
It doesnt compute in my world actually.
How about making drones more FUN as in - let them drop faction drone stuff... or faction drones or anything... or atleast bpcs which make those sentient drone loot worthwhile, eh?
I. |
Ghazbaran
Gravity Core
1
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Posted - 2012.03.28 22:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
AstarothPrime wrote:So basically whatya suggesting is - make drone region even safer for miners then 1.0 space AND let it drop additional minerals to anyone present to just scoop up...
It doesnt compute in my world actually.
How about making drones more FUN as in - let them drop faction drone stuff... or faction drones or anything... or atleast bpcs which make those sentient drone loot worthwhile, eh?
I.
No, no... What you mean is how do we fix drone space to implement this type of mechanism so that mining is not overwhelmed by drone space. Then someone answers: Nerf The drones just as all loot was nerfed that time. Make them Have bounties like the rest of the universe, smaller ones and a bit of the loot they already drop based on the study of the isk players make in anomalies and other activities VS drone space.
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
183
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Posted - 2012.03.29 20:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Misconception removal: This concept is not for drone space in specific. It is for all regions.
The idea is that drones are pervasive and self replicating, but are considered a non threat as they stay in the belt areas, and only attack vessels outfitted offensively.
Miners would support them in this, as they have the obvious benefit of a security service to a degree. Not to forget, the drones seem to encourage the miners by throwing them ore... the motives for this could become interesting.
Mining, like any other activity, obviously benefits from group participation, but must never be limited to this or otherwise require it. The idea that they should need protection from these drones defeats the point entirely, and would further break mining. Solo mining is not the ideal in EVE, but it must not be nerfed into a group only activity either.
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Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
40
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Posted - 2012.03.30 18:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Misconception removal: This concept is not for drone space in specific. It is for all regions.
The idea is that drones are pervasive and self replicating, but are considered a non threat as they stay in the belt areas, and only attack vessels outfitted offensively.
Miners would support them in this, as they have the obvious benefit of a security service to a degree. Not to forget, the drones seem to encourage the miners by throwing them ore... the motives for this could become interesting. Agreed that the drones should not be openly hostile to everything, in this context.
Mining ships, the actual dedicated ones, are too soft to seriously operate like they once did. And back then, they were quite killable, just a little harder since the PvP ships still had some of today's upgrades yet to come into the game.
Plus, I appreciate how this ties in a bonus for miners who pay attention, mining needs that aspect I feel. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
192
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Posted - 2012.04.02 18:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bump for further review |
cornholio508
Berserking Roid Beavers Damned Nation
4
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Posted - 2012.04.02 20:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think a better idea is to make a small change in the way mining goes on and what happens in the belts . The drones idea sounds good in theory but at the end of the day lets face it . Eve is not meant to be safe even in high sec . Suicide ganking is promoted by those dumb asses that use bots . In all honesty any player here that is active hates bots .
So why not give miners a slight advantage but at the same time still punish those who bot mine . The whole rogue drone idea protects those that use mining bots . Here is my idea
Instead of drones that target ships asteroids that are been mined create a cloud of particles as they break up . The more miners there are the bigger the cloud of particles . This same cloud of particles makes it harder for ships to lock onto the miners but not impossible to lock . Now for the active miners this would be a good thing . They see someone is trying to gank then and it give them time to run away . However BOTS and afk miners would be out of luck . The suicide gank elemnt is still there , but the active people playing are still rewarded by been safer than they currently are . |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1267
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Posted - 2012.04.02 20:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
As a former miner and PVP enthusiast, I think this idea is terrible. It destroys belt ratting, a major source of sec status repair and nullsec income. And it wouldn't even save you in highsec: a sensor-boosted Tornado could land on a Hulk, obliterate it, and warp out before the drones could apply enough damage. Ganks will still happen, but your plan would eliminate VAST amounts of other types of gameplay in order to make mining safer for yourself.
edit: The idea someone posted above of a "triage mode" would be interesting. A high slot module that allowed an exhumer to deploy a shield that could withstand quite a bit of punishment while backup arrives. The downside would be obvious: a hulk would lose 33% of its yield. And of course alpha strikes would still be a major threat, so ganks would be possible. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
40
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Posted - 2012.04.02 22:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Who said anything about being safe anywhere?
I replied to a post before with a similar direction, this doesn't make miners safe. It does, however, boost the risk to PvP ships when going to crack open the next hulk pinata that IS where it should be, at home mining in a belt. A risk level even in high sec that is below reward in many cases.
This was something the OP pointed out much earlier:
Nikk Narrel wrote:Clearing a misconception before it becomes too dominant in this idea: This will not make mining barges immune to being attacked. Bots are gonna be around probably in any system, and they devalue the efforts of people who really do play, which I think is something that really hurts mining for those of us not botting as well.
And the bonuses from the pods, something bots should be unable to take advantage of from how they were described, is something I can really appreciate. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
195
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Posted - 2012.04.03 19:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:Who said anything about being safe anywhere? I certainly didn't.
I even went so far as to point out how, while mining ships and transports could hide in such a belt, they would eventually need to emerge. That ore needs to go somewhere else to justify the time and effort taken mining it.
And I'll take a liberty with concepts from science fiction, and point out that drones working collectively could delay or obstruct most solo ship types. The drones are notorious for ECM already, in player use. Who would be truly surprised to see the rogues keeping this ability?
It could be that mining ships are special in that they can operate despite this interference. You know they have to be good at something, eh?
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