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Ruban Research
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Posted - 2008.09.11 12:56:00 -
[1]
IÆve been enjoying ECM for a while now in small fleets and pvp skirmishes and originally planned to train for a Falcon. IÆm not so sure now. I will shortly complete Caldari BS 5 and am thinking I should stick with Scorps.
Falcon gets better resists, longer range and can fit the cloak. But the Scorpion gets an extra medium and low slot (which can be used to compensate for the lack of range and targeting speed), has more useful damage output (highs and drones) and is fully insurable.
What am I missing here? How come I see so many Falcons and so few Scorps used in pvp?
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Cautet
Precision Engineering
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:02:00 -
[2]
Cloaking
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FreddyCheeseman
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:17:00 -
[3]
The falcon runs rings round the scorp for pure jam ability. Higher jam strengths, and ofc the cloak as already mentioned is worth its weight in isk. The scorpion doesn't jam so well, but it can do some damage and tank a bit, both of which the falcon can't. In short, theres no need to use a Scorpion unless your trying to jam in the middle of the battle where you can....sorry will, become a target. Say your undocking for a small 2v2 station fight or something, the scorp becomes viable. ECM, damage and tank. All mediocre but all functionable.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:41:00 -
[4]
The real differences are that the Falcon is cloaky, but that the Scorpion can survive being tackled - heavy neuts, remote reps, smartbombs, much more EHP. And it costs virtually nothing
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Slobodanka
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Posted - 2008.09.11 13:47:00 -
[5]
Current pvp is mostly nano based. BS is rarely a good nano ship. Falcons on the other hand are cruiser hulls and are quite agile (if not as fast as other cruiser hulls). Also cov ops cloak plays a major part in falcons appeal to the masses, because it increases sense of security and gives you an easier way to get out of fight if you want to. Ability to stay out of everyones targeting range and still be effective is also a bonus :p
If you're just camping a gate then scorp should be better because of additional slots and ability to get some armor buffer with rest of the fleet repping you.
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.11 17:39:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
The falcon runs rings round the scorp for pure jam ability. Higher jam strengths, and ofc the cloak as already mentioned is worth its weight in isk. The scorpion doesn't jam so well, but it can do some damage and tank a bit, both of which the falcon can't. In short, theres no need to use a Scorpion unless your trying to jam in the middle of the battle where you can....sorry will, become a target. Say your undocking for a small 2v2 station fight or something, the scorp becomes viable. ECM, damage and tank. All mediocre but all functionable.
This is not true, they both have the same ecm strength bonus and the scorp actually has an extra mid slot that it can use for an additional jammer (although a sensor booster is often the better choice).
The choice between the two comes down to cloak and agility versus hp and cost. The Scorpion can come out to a cost of <30 mil alltogether, while a falcon is going to be above the 100 mil point. Unless you really need that cloak and extra agility then the scorpion is a better choice.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.11 18:07:00 -
[7]
I'd say a Scorp for non-nano small gang stuff can be annoying as hell and very surviveable. Not to mention, flying in something that has EIGHT mids is pimp and versatile. 
But in Fleet your just primary and toast.
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Capt'n Tightpants
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Posted - 2008.09.11 20:34:00 -
[8]
The Scorp is for real men. Include exotic dancers, smokes, and alcoholic spirits in your cargo bay for true balls-to-the-wall effectiveness. You will need a large supply of these materials.
The falcon is for ECM superiority, flexibility, discrete mobility, and laughing heartily at how you can ruin other players' fun with ninja-like presence. Include magic ninja-vanish! smoke powder in your cargohold. |
Sarin Adler
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.11 20:58:00 -
[9]
Scorpion can snipe ECM @ 220-250 km with proper skills + fit. It can fit 2 nice utility highs: remote armor reps (scorps in pairs can stand a lot of damage with minimal armor tank, while a falcon will be scared of just being targeted, 3 volleys & bye), smartboms or heavy nos/neuts. And it can do some damage (not much, but that damage will be nice in small gangs). Also is T1 so you can lose them without much problem as a full insurance will result with a lose of <30-40 mill as someone said, full t2.
Falcon is better for roaming, as it more agile & faster, and the cloak hability is very nice. NONE poses more strength over the other in their spec (ECM), indeed the scorp ahs more mids which is cooler.
If you're using it in fleet warfare I would pick Scorp over Falcon any day fo the week.
---
Alts, the root of all evil. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.11 21:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
The falcon runs rings round the scorp for pure jam ability. Higher jam strengths, and ofc the cloak as already mentioned is worth its weight in isk. The scorpion doesn't jam so well, but it can do some damage and tank a bit, both of which the falcon can't. In short, theres no need to use a Scorpion unless your trying to jam in the middle of the battle where you can....sorry will, become a target. Say your undocking for a small 2v2 station fight or something, the scorp becomes viable. ECM, damage and tank. All mediocre but all functionable.
This is not true, they both have the same ecm strength bonus and the scorp actually has an extra mid slot that it can use for an additional jammer (although a sensor booster is often the better choice).
The choice between the two comes down to cloak and agility versus hp and cost. The Scorpion can come out to a cost of <30 mil alltogether, while a falcon is going to be above the 100 mil point. Unless you really need that cloak and extra agility then the scorpion is a better choice.
Actually they don't. Falcon's on 20%/level, to the scorp's 15%.
And the Scorp has such a low scan res that it _needs_ a sensorbooster to keep up with the falcon.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Wardeneo
DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.11 22:05:00 -
[11]
scorp for big fleets, cheaper, falcon for small gangs where its more effective, can as a scout and jam most targets in a small gang fight
wardeneo
The best tactic to win a fight in eve is DPS!!! and if u cant do this or fail trying u need more DPS :) |
FreddyCheeseman
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Posted - 2008.09.11 22:42:00 -
[12]
Edited by: FreddyCheeseman on 11/09/2008 22:44:48
Edited by: FreddyCheeseman on 11/09/2008 22:43:04
Just double checked in game after my first post was pulled up for being "untrue", when I was indeed correct.
Scorpion jam bonus - 15% per level
Falcon jam bonus - 20% per level
Not to mention the Falcons superior lock range (120km vs 90km) and Scan res (200 vs 75) coupled with a smaller sig radius (180 vs 480) makes it jam harder, lock faster, and all from further away whilst be harder to lock down. Then, if we decide to look into ECM boat vs ECM boat, as can often be a deciding factor in small gang warfare, guess who wins again. Grav strength on the Falcon is 28 to the Scorps 24, making it tougher to jam out and be removed by enemy ECM.
So, in a nutshell, anyone who tells you a scorpion jams just as well for less ISK is, quite frankly, talking rubbish. As I said before the scorpion has positives, but superior jamming is simply not one of them.
Edit// Stats are without skills and pulled straight from show info on the market.
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achoura
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Posted - 2008.09.11 22:49:00 -
[13]
But it does tank better for less isk 
For all the falcons strengths when something does lock all it has to do is sneeze on the falcon to finish it, scorp at least last 2.3 seconds.
Buy scorp, fit tackle, tank, nos & neuts then go sit on a gate and wait for someone to try and gank you.
***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
Greckor Monmouth
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.09.11 23:35:00 -
[14]
smaller gangs-falcons
big gangs-scorp
Thats my opinion. Falcon has more survivability in that it can cloak and GTFO, and GTFO faster than a scorp. Scorp has more EHP, and is harder to pop, but if it gets caught it will almost certainly get popped.
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Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.12 00:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
Edited by: FreddyCheeseman on 11/09/2008 22:44:48
Edited by: FreddyCheeseman on 11/09/2008 22:43:04
Just double checked in game after my first post was pulled up for being "untrue", when I was indeed correct.
Scorpion jam bonus - 15% per level
Falcon jam bonus - 20% per level
Not to mention the Falcons superior lock range (120km vs 90km) and Scan res (200 vs 75) coupled with a smaller sig radius (180 vs 480) makes it jam harder, lock faster, and all from further away whilst be harder to lock down. Then, if we decide to look into ECM boat vs ECM boat, as can often be a deciding factor in small gang warfare, guess who wins again. Grav strength on the Falcon is 28 to the Scorps 24, making it tougher to jam out and be removed by enemy ECM.
So, in a nutshell, anyone who tells you a scorpion jams just as well for less ISK is, quite frankly, talking rubbish. As I said before the scorpion has positives, but superior jamming is simply not one of them.
Edit// Stats are without skills and pulled straight from show info on the market.
Shows what I get for actually believing ccp's item database.
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FreddyCheeseman
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Posted - 2008.09.12 08:04:00 -
[16]
It might be that the database is outdated, the falcon did get some love a while back. I believe the only one which got the 20% strength boost was the Rook, and the Falcon had a 15% bonus, the same as the Scorpion. But that was changed and the Falcon got the same increased jammer strength as the Rook did. I might be wrong on the figures, but the Rook certainly was the strongest jammer pre-trinity, and the Falcon was boosted to Rook standards.
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BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.12 08:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
It might be that the database is outdated, the falcon did get some love a while back. I believe the only one which got the 20% strength boost was the Rook, and the Falcon had a 15% bonus, the same as the Scorpion. But that was changed and the Falcon got the same increased jammer strength as the Rook did. I might be wrong on the figures, but the Rook certainly was the strongest jammer pre-trinity, and the Falcon was boosted to Rook standards.
The rook is still the stronger jammer..though the lack of cloak sorta negates that..
Proudly annoying FC's since 2007
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 09:05:00 -
[18]
Scorpion is less suited for mobile, roaming gangs and it's not a cloaky ship. It will get spotted - so people will run away if they don't think they can handle ECM.
Falcon is popular for traps/alts - just have a alt in a noob corp/etc, and they'll never see you coming and it's relatively easy to use on a alt for this purpose, since it's not exactly going to get probed out and killed while you're doing something else with your main.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Evanade
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 09:09:00 -
[19]
Originally by: BiggestT
The rook is still the stronger jammer..though the lack of cloak sorta negates that..
They get the exact same bonuses, and the slight range advantage it has is neglible
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sok alt - main got banzored |
Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Tri Optimum
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.09.12 09:10:00 -
[20]
james explained already why the falcon is superior to the scorpion on an individual level. but the falcon also has the big advantage of cloaking capabilities that affect the tactical level.
the knowledge that there might (or might not) be one or two cloaked falcons with a gang will affect the decisions of an FC .. be it on the side that fights against or that fights with the falcons. falcons are atm the single most-useful asset of every gang. they can be used for intel, they can be used to dissable ships from 200k out in less than 5 seconds, they can be used as a deterrent against pesky people.
while the scorpion has just painted a big fat bullseye on his hull. 
___________________
-Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.12 09:12:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Grimpak on 12/09/2008 09:15:03
Originally by: Cautet
Edit: Oh, and Falcon does not have better range than Scorpion. Scorpion has the best range of any ECM ship.
hmm.... no....
rook has 150km base targetting range. you don't even need to script your sensor booster to put it at 249km range
it also has 32 sensor str, wich makes it the sub-capital ship with highest sensor str.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Cautet
Precision Engineering
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Posted - 2008.09.12 09:21:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Cautet on 12/09/2008 09:23:02
Scorpion has 3 rig spots and same ECM range bonus of the Falcon and Rook. Scorpion can fit Sensor boosters/Sensor amplifiers and has a extra rig slot for a sensor boosting rig or an ECM strength rig.
Comparing base stats of a ship is pointless if you do not consider what it can fit. Also, with my skills I use range scripts most of the time with falcon, plus I get a locking delay on the locking after cloak when using falcon.
Scorpion has 1 more low 1 more med 1 more rig slot than a falcon.
Also, alot has been made of difference in ECM strength but it is not that large, and partly negated by the extra slots.
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Agalantiri
Caldari
Deadworlds Infrastructure Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 10:26:00 -
[23]
The four ships that post Empyrean age that have 20% jamming strength are: Kitsune, Falcon, Rook and Widow.
All are brutal in what they do. However the Scorp has the advantage in slots and rigs.
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Carniflex
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.09.12 10:42:00 -
[24]
Falcon is a bit nicer to have in smaller gangs while Scorpion has slight advantage in bigger gangs in my opinion. Oh and scorpion is ofc also fully insureable, but if you take rigs into account that is not so stellar price difference between those two.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 10:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
james explained already why the falcon is superior to the scorpion on an individual level. but the falcon also has the big advantage of cloaking capabilities that affect the tactical level.
the knowledge that there might (or might not) be one or two cloaked falcons with a gang will affect the decisions of an FC .. be it on the side that fights against or that fights with the falcons. falcons are atm the single most-useful asset of every gang. they can be used for intel, they can be used to dissable ships from 200k out in less than 5 seconds, they can be used as a deterrent against pesky people.
while the scorpion has just painted a big fat bullseye on his hull.
Yeah - that's the issue with covops cloaks, really.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Malcanis
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.12 10:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 12/09/2008 09:15:03
Originally by: Cautet
Edit: Oh, and Falcon does not have better range than Scorpion. Scorpion has the best range of any ECM ship.
hmm.... no....
rook has 150km base targetting range. you don't even need to script your sensor booster to put it at 249km range
it also has 32 sensor str, wich makes it the sub-capital ship with highest sensor str.
Yep, in fact Rook can quite easily get away with just not fitting a sensor booster at all - giving it an extra jammer.
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Evanade
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 12:29:00 -
[27]
Falcon doesn¦t need to fit a sensorbooster either. Just fit a lockrange rig and a lock speed rig, both quite cheap, and you can have your 6th jammer.
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sok alt - main got banzored |
Savage Roar
Storm Thesis
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Posted - 2008.09.12 14:44:00 -
[28]
you're all wrong. get a kitsune.
BTW, not everyone will realise that this is my sig. IBTL |
Ralara
Caldari
Shadow Incursion
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cautet
Resists don't for so much.
oh I don't know, I found a Falcon fit that tanks 22,984 DPS with 93.9% EM resist being the lowest...
Well, I say tanks 23k DPS... kinda. For 11 seconds. With... 3 Estamal's Invulns and an Estamal's EM field and 2 of his shield boost amps and his XL shield booster, crystal sets and some tech 2 rigs.
Sure, it may cost a little bit of isk but it's worth it - you could tank almost anything in that.
--
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2008.09.12 21:54:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Rajere on 12/09/2008 21:54:54
Scorp for RR fleets, falcon for anything else.
If you're gang is going to be jumping through a gate and has to mwd back to it to get into RR range, it's all about the scorp.
Scorp can get 260k+ EHP with t1/t2 fit. You're going to get primaried just start locking things as you burn back to the gate. doesn't matter what you fit in the highslots because you're never going to agress anything. get back on the gate and tank for as long as possible while the rest of your gang gets prelocks in place and RR circle jerking set up. By now they've figured out you are a bait setup and your gang knows who their FC has called secondary and will soon switch to. This should occur just before you're about to go down, so you're jumping out anyway.
NOTR
How to Fail at Eve
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