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Does anyone really use Assualt Frigates?

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Isean Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.09.15 04:19:00 - [1] Ok, me personally, I love small mobile ships. I have the skills and isk to fly big lumbering BCs and BSs...but I love the small ships. I really want to love assault frigates, but I can't seem to get them to work very well for me. I love t1 frigs because I can go out and do crazy things at near no loss, because they are so cheap. AFs are a bit more expensive and I don't want to just throw them away. Im looking for someone who actually flies them often (for PvP) and who really enjoys the little ships. I'd like to know exactly what their role is and how you would fly them. Im not asking for any particular one, im really just asking for a generic assault frig pilot to help me want to fly these more often. --- Don't think bad of my corp or alliance for what I say. I say whatever I want...because I can.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.15 04:23:00 - [2] No.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.15 04:29:00 - [3] There great ships if you select your targets right. Avoid the orbiting ceptors and only attack larger class nub ships. Competent cruiser pilots will have no trouble kill you. Its role if anything is a low sec roamer that needs to get its mass fixed.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.09.15 05:23:00 - [4] They aren't great PvP ships right now, mass is being reduced next patch to help, which I look foward to. They are great ratting/plexing ships though. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Vacuum Boy	Posted - 2008.09.15 05:24:00 - [5] Lots of people feel that way - small fast ships that could make a contribution in a gang or compete with cruisers if well flown. I felt the same and trained AF to lvl 5. The reality is that they are pretty useless after Tuxford nerfed their sig radius - they tank badly, and then the drone nerf was the final nail in the only semi usefull AF's coffin. They are slowish and don't give good DPS unless you use a gank fit. A good illustration of this is: Our alliance recently took a 200+ AF gang against a much smaller enemy gang. Result: Total comedy failure.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.15 07:39:00 - [6] the jag and wolf work great in PvP, haha other races.
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.15 07:42:00 - [7] Originally by: Isean Ok, me personally, I love small mobile ships. Personally, I don't find them mobile at all (very slow), however they can be useful in some situations, you just need to be very aware of your limits. I find they make a great change of pace ship personally. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Reuqh Dew Aliastra	Posted - 2008.09.15 08:04:00 - [8] I really love AF's too. Ishkur was the first t2 ship I could fly and I used to gather lots of killmails in that. It just feels kinda pointless to fly one atm. Just gimped t1 cruisers with triple the cost. After the patch Ishkur will be the first ship I undock tho.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.09.15 08:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Vacuum Boy Lots of people feel that way - small fast ships that could make a contribution in a gang or compete with cruisers if well flown. I felt the same and trained AF to lvl 5. The reality is that they are pretty useless after Tuxford nerfed their sig radius - they tank badly, and then the drone nerf was the final nail in the only semi usefull AF's coffin. They are slowish and don't give good DPS unless you use a gank fit. A good illustration of this is: Our alliance recently took a 200+ AF gang against a much smaller enemy gang. Result: Total comedy failure. Not surprising given you all used MWDs.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.15 09:20:00 - [10] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/09/2008 09:23:28 Originally by: MotherMoon the jag and wolf work great in PvP, haha other races. Why do you say that? I mean, I find all of them work to some extent, as long as you are aware that you are, in fact, flying a frigate. Jaguar and Wolf don't really work much better then the rest of them - well, the Wolf is a awesome AF killer admittedly. If you say 'nano', then you're being silly. Wolf is very heavy (and rather slow) for a Minmatar ship in addition to two mids, and Jaguar doesn't have the range to do anything outside of 13km (or 10km for that matter) - in addition to being not that fast of a ship in the first place. You cannot fly it the same way you'd fly a interceptor, because it's about twice as easy to track a nano Jaguar (bigger sig + less speed). What I use these ships for is killing other AFs + occasional short range interceptors (in addition to all T1 frigs naturally), plus comedy kills/ransoms of noob cruisers/BCs, because people who don't know how to fly are terribly vulnerable to a frigate-sized ship which can tackle well and take out their drones. Also, with their small size they're relatively suitable for roaming, so going through the, say, Tama->OM death valley (FW blobs galore, ceptors and cruiser-sized ships extremely common) is much safer for a flashing red in a Jaguar then one in a Rupture. AF gangs are not that hot when you have to deal with multiple ships with high tracking/drone power. With focus fire, they can annihilate AFs extremely quick. I remember this comedy fight where 8-9 AFs/short range ceptors were attacking a friend in a flashing red BS at a gate - it took me about 30 seconds to clear out the gang off him in a Hurricane sitting 10km off. Out-tracking doesn't work very well vs multiple spread out opponents - you can only keep your transversal high to so many people. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.09.15 12:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Isean Ok, me personally, I love small mobile ships. They are small but not mobile, speed patch if going in production unchanged fixes it and will make them much better ships. -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/
achoura	Posted - 2008.09.15 12:37:00 - [12] Only the jag, passive ofc, it's slow all right for a frig, but near 3 k shield it tanks well and it's an inty killer *The EVE servers and their patches*
Galan Undris	Posted - 2008.09.15 12:42:00 - [13] I like the concept of the AFs, being beefed up versions of the 'good' frigs. It's just that the execution of them takes away what they're good at doesn't add enough good stuff to make up for it. I fly the Jaguar from time to time, but I can't help but feel like they've taken away the bits that makes it good (tracking bonus and a lot of agility) and replaced them with mediocre stuff (second damage bonus is nice, optimal just bonus doesn't make sense to me) More speed and give back the missing bonus from the t1 hull please
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.09.15 12:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Cpt Branko Jaguar doesn't have the range to do anything outside of 13km (or 10km for that matter) - in addition to being not that fast of a ship in the first place. The Jaguar bonus scream "Artillery", too bad its grid disagree. So I flew one (made it work with small shield booster and small cap booster, way less grid than medium extender and don't need the web anyway) and had some interesting kills, like Crow and Hyena. Would die horribly to a blasteranis but they avoid AFs usually. Also, I would no fly a ship that can't hit outside of 13km if there is any risk of encountering an inty. -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/
6Bagheera9 Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:03:00 - [15] Jag is good, though it should really have a fall-off bonus. Ishkur is probably the most workable of the AFs with nice dps and a decent tank. Retribution has good dps and range with T2 medium pulses, but you do need someone else to tackle for you. Hawk and Harpy do alright in support role but are a little light on damage. Vengeance has a strong tank, but pretty shitty dps. Wolf is a pain in the ass to fit and really only has its alpha working for it. I haven't flown the Enyo, but its seems kinda meh.
achoura	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:10:00 - [16] Actually the wolf is a mini munnin, the jag is a mini vag, but both ships have the wrong bonuses. Can the ac jag do anything outside 13km? Nope. Do paper stats make a good pilot? Apparently not *The EVE servers and their patches*
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:17:00 - [17] Edited by: Spectre3353 on 15/09/2008 13:17:32 I fly Gallente AF's and I find that while they are fun (and the Ishkur can be very effective) they are not good solo ships. A regular T1 cruiser is almost as fast, way tougher, way stronger, considerably more versatile and more cost effective. If you want to fly an AF and you enjoy it, there is no reason to stop. Many AF's are effective and have their role (Ishkur, Jaguar, Harpy) but you just need to understand their limitations as you fly them. ----- My Pirate Blog: http://evenewb.blogspot.com/ My Ransom Board: http://www.pcransomboard.com/
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:19:00 - [18] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 I haven't flown the Enyo, but its seems kinda meh. With rails pretty decent dps out to 50km with insane tracking, so pretty good at keeping interceptors out of the fight. Also, fun suicide ganky blaster setups. -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:28:00 - [19] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/09/2008 13:38:15 Originally by: Lubomir Penev The Jaguar bonus scream "Artillery", too bad its grid disagree. So I flew one (made it work with small shield booster and small cap booster, way less grid than medium extender and don't need the web anyway) and had some interesting kills, like Crow and Hyena. Would die horribly to a blasteranis but they avoid AFs usually. I tried to make this work, but a combination of bad tracking (lack of the Rifter's tracking bonus, makes killing drones hard and gimps your ability to hit at speed) in combination with fairly low grid (or high grid requirements of artilleries, however you want to put it) makes it a unattractive ship for me (and the fact that with three guns, artillery DPS is very low). Of course, arty fits can engage long range interceptors which you have to avoid like the plague in short range fits, and are still bloody awesome frigate killers. On the other hand, short range fits mash up other AFs very well, kill short range ceptors (blaster-taranis pilots engage for some reason at times, although I did have a AB+neutron taranis put me in structure before he died once), and kill the people flying noob cruisers preety well. Besides, after you fly a arty Trasher once, jumping in a arty Jaguar is gimping yourself Originally by: achoura Actually the wolf is a mini munnin, the jag is a mini vag, but both ships have the wrong bonuses. It's not that simple. Mini-Vagabond doesn't really work because webrange is 13km / point range is 24km - and 5K base falloff just doesn't go very far even with a * 50% ship bonus * 50% barrage bonus and *15% rig bonus. Even with a falloff bonus, your ranged capability would be preety bad - something close to 35-45 DPS (150 (-10 rocket DPS if you're using rockets) for a total of 140 turret DPS, then being at optimal+1.1 falloff reduces your DPS to about 32-35% after hit quality) at 15km if a Jaguar had a falloff bonus and a falloff rig at AS V. So AC fits are bound to be short range. If the Jaguar had grid and tracking for arties, then you could fly it like a mini-Vagabond of sorts, but it doesn't. Sure, swapping the optimal bonus for a falloff bonus would boost the ship in the AC role and I fully support that, but then we get a problem with the Wolf. The Wolf needs its falloff bonus to function as a AC ship - no web makes using falloff unbonused small ACs pointless. Giving it a optimal bonus rather then falloff would completely kill its usage as a AC boat. And please don't ask for a ship to be a mini Munnin. Why would anyone want to fly a mini turd, it stinks less because it's small? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:29:00 - [20] Also, don't forget that CCP is tweaking them quite heavily for the speed changes. Last time I checked the mass of the AFs was almost halved. Not sure if that is still the case, but that would certainly go a long way towards making them more mobile.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Meiyang Lee Also, don't forget that CCP is tweaking them quite heavily for the speed changes. Last time I checked the mass of the AFs was almost halved. Not sure if that is still the case, but that would certainly go a long way towards making them more mobile. Yes, their mass was almost halved (basically, brought down to frigate + a bit level). However, they upped the agility modifiers so they handle just a little less horrible then before and still not like actual frigates. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Cpt Branko Besides, after you fly a arty Trasher once, jumping in a arty Jaguar is gimping yourself They are not the same thing at all, I saw my arty Jag as a slower Claw without the lock range issue and with a tank. At close to 4000m/s and with a semi decent tank it can hold the bigger stuff for quite a bit (as long as cap boosters last at least). -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:46:00 - [23] Originally by: Cpt Branko The Wolf needs its falloff bonus to function as a AC ship - no web makes using falloff unbonused small ACs pointless. Giving it a optimal bonus rather then falloff would completely kill its usage as a AC boat. And please don't ask for a ship to be a mini Munnin. Why would anyone want to fly a mini turd, it stinks less because it's small? Agree 100%, the best small arty platform if you go for damage is by far the Thrasher, keep the Wolf an AC boat. -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/
Sirius Problem Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:50:00 - [24] Edited by: Sirius Problem on 15/09/2008 13:50:13 Price to Performance ratio just isn't there. ---- Train more. Whine less.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:53:00 - [25] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/09/2008 13:55:36 Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Cpt Branko Besides, after you fly a arty Trasher once, jumping in a arty Jaguar is gimping yourself They are not the same thing at all, I saw my arty Jag as a slower Claw without the lock range issue and with a tank. At close to 4000m/s and with a semi decent tank it can hold the bigger stuff for quite a bit (as long as cap boosters last at least). Well, true, you can use it as a interceptor-like ship which the Trasher couldn't possibly do, but I meant about the actual usage on those turrets. The 50% tracking bonus on the Trasher really fixes small arty tracking issues completely (and the number of the turrets fixes the DPS issue too). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.09.15 15:03:00 - [26] The issue is they aren't mobile. They have a slightly smaller sig radius than my Thorax but they align in roughly the same amount of time - which means they cannot be used to get past low sec gate camps - which means they aren't solo PVP ships like you'd hope they would be. Maybe they'll be better after the speed nerf if their mass got decreased but even nano'd to hell they align in the time of a cruiser, hit weaker than a cruiser, tank worse than a cruiser, fly about as fast as a cruiser, etc. May as well just fly a cruiser, their only bonus is better acceleration and smaller signature radius and at least in the Gallente side of the equation the AF ship bonuses are seriously fail (optimal boosts on small rails on a slow ship, are you serious?).
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.15 15:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Merin Ryskin No. Wrong. Theyve been common as muck in the maxage lately (every1 trying to win the "lock first while getting final blow" race lol) Awesome EVE history
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.15 15:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Vacuum Boy Lots of people feel that way - small fast ships that could make a contribution in a gang or compete with cruisers if well flown. I felt the same and trained AF to lvl 5. The reality is that they are pretty useless after Tuxford nerfed their sig radius - they tank badly, and then the drone nerf was the final nail in the only semi usefull AF's coffin. They are slowish and don't give good DPS unless you use a gank fit. A good illustration of this is: Our alliance recently took a 200+ AF gang against a much smaller enemy gang. Result: Total comedy failure. It wasnt a fail at all, that fleet took out a slightly smaller NC fleet prior to "the failing" (hehe that raven pilot wld be stoked ^^) The NC fleet had BS support x) Awesome EVE history
Uobeyme Ordye	Posted - 2008.09.15 16:43:00 - [29] Edited by: Uobeyme Ordye on 15/09/2008 16:50:22 af`s are my ship of choice!! like u i hate the lumbering bs`s and never fly anything bigger than a bc. i fly the vengeance and jaguar almost exclusively roaming lo-sec for targets solo. generally all u hear is that they are crap, but, as long as you know your ship and get used to its limitations and pick your targets sensibly they are just fine in my book. you just cant beat a frigs lock time and i hate losing targets while waiting for cruisers to get a lock so af`s are my fav. idealy id like to roam with another af or 2 but i get fed up tryin to find people so i just hunt on my own and im very happy with my choice of pvp ship. ive had a myrm and a hurricane on there knees just recently and not noobs with stupid fits either :p oh and gate camps have never been a problem, i live in lo-sec, i roam lo-sec and have never gotten caught in a af at a camp. my cruisers sure have though!
Annowyn Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.09.15 17:00:00 - [30] I've been having a fair bit of fun flying a deadspace fit vengeance. Sadly the dps on it sucks too much to kill off a battlecruiser, thought it can tank one for quite a long time. So yes, I fly them.

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