Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Gwendalyne
Caldari Angelic Industries
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:26:00 -
[1]
First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.
I am a devout carebear, having come from a long line of MMO's with (Optional) PvP in them. I actually used to like PvP until I played those games, at which point the extremely childish attitudes of people made me cringe. Bad typing, overuse of PVP jargon and the general obsessive need to shout at the top of one's lungs, "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.
Here I come upon EVE, and see that it's (within limits) a whole game worth of PVP. I actually did NOT cringe, because I knew that, in the usual case of all-world PVP, there was going to be some sense of honor involved. Unspoken rules, political en'tandre, things like that...
After reading this forum a while (mostly for the lulz) I have yet to see this honor, yet I know it exists here SOMEWHERE. I can see the PVP community is more mature here (though you still need to work on the phallus wielding part) so I am pleased. However, in the two months I have been in my corp, I am now sitting in station twiddling my thumbs during our THIRD grief-week. Do you guys hate carebears that much?
So basically, I am confused as to how this game's PVP seems the same as the rest, even though I KNOW it's different.
Please be kind when you post -- if you feel you must flame, at least be objective when you do it.
"Videogames don't make People into RL Killers, but the People who make Videogames Killing into RL." |
Ikaa LoveYums
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:29:00 -
[2]
Honor is this game? Doesn't exist
|
Triksterism
Gallente Frozen Corpse Inspection Services
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:44:00 -
[3]
Barbarians in space, with lasers. Sometimes missiles. (and drones too) ---------------------------------------
|
Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:53:00 -
[4]
The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.
|
Hotaru Stargazer
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:58:00 -
[5]
Can I have your stuff?
|
Lars Lodar
Suicidal Tendencies Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 21:16:00 -
[6]
Don't listen to the trolls.
I've been a professional pirate for quite some time now and I can tell you that my friends and I take honor very seriously. We never dishonor a ransom or planned fight such as a 1v1. Reputation is very important for most pirates as it's a good way to make isk.
Last night I challenged 2 Myrmidons to fight my drake. I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules. I probably could have escaped but I stuck to my word and let him take the kill. We talked for some time afterward and he even tried to recruit me.
Stuff like that happens all the time at least in small fights in low sec. Just gotta have a good attitude and treat your opponent with respect whether you win or loose.
|
Drake Draconis
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 21:29:00 -
[7]
There is much dishonor in EVE..... Most of the PVP "griefing" takes place in High Sec and border territories... as people who assume the safety of CONCORD will help them out... and the said griefer's attempt to work around the system and make life hellish.
PVP'ing in lowsec and or 0.0 is just that.... PVP'ing.
It can be anything and everything... some will be honest...others will run like cowards... etc..etc.
As it was said before... what you bring with you is what you got....doesn't mean the other guy will agree however...let alone have the same honor.
I sure wouldn't call you a carebear either.... your just someone who has a bit more time under his belt in the world of gaming and PVP'ing.
Its called experience.
Personally I avoid such situations.... but that doesn't mean i wont put up a fight when necessary. I just tend to avoid trouble. : O ) At least until I can afford to get into trouble that is. 8 O )
|
Demitria Fernir
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 21:44:00 -
[8]
Honor? in my PVP?
10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 |
Gwendalyne
Caldari Angelic Industries
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 22:09:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Gwendalyne on 16/09/2008 22:13:59 I appreciate the replies -- even the "troll" ones. It helps to see how PvP works here.
@Lars: Your post is the good half I see of PVP in EVE. I suppose I might be making wardecs more of a thing than they are, but usually the people issuing them (and my CEO confirms they said to him) only want free stuff and carebear tears. Usually the other way around.
I DO remember something from the first wardec I was in: (WARNING: BORING STORY - SKIP IF YOU LIKE)
Late in the week I was out missioning in a rather unattractive T1 cruiser when I was caught on the other side of a gate and stomped on. After the WT's left I took the advice of a corpmate and decided to migrate for the duration. Having a lot of money at the time, I decided to purchase a Ferox and a handful of Mining Lasers (at the time it was the fastest mining setup for me) and so I did. No sooner had I set out, leaving through a different gate, from which I had 3 to choose from, I unluckily ran into the SAME two people. They decided to torture me this time, and although one stopped firing when I told him it wasn't set up to fight, I ended up cussing the other one out, causing him to re-engage. I will know now to keep my mouth shut.
Anyway, I decided to strike up a convo with the guy who stopped firing, and he apologized when he found out I had no combat potential the second time. After asking a rather funny, but very insightful question ("How did you fit mining lasers on a Drake, anyway?") he decided to give me some ISK to get a new ship with, and I thanked him.
The entire corp was going to renew on us until they realized we weren't PVP'ers, which is what they were looking for.
(END OF BORING STORY)
===== @Drake: Yeah, I really am a carebear... In fact, I really suck at most PVP. I'm an exemplary tactician in battles, but usually, gun size has me beaten long before that comes into play. I suppose this is why I don't abhor PVP here so much: Reading up on some of the ship types, I can see there's a need for my kind of fight. I might actually return to the maelstrom of war after all.
"Videogames don't make People into RL Killers, but the People who make Videogames Killing into RL." |
Zloj MaNGooST
Solar Dragons Academy SOLAR WING
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 22:12:00 -
[10]
Searching for honor? in forum for lo-sec pirates? lolz made in trollhettan by trolls |
|
FoulBeast
Gallente Malum Crusis IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 23:38:00 -
[11]
It comes with every PvP based game, there is people who honor PvP and take it seriously, who'll try to keep an arranged fight fair and keep it clean, others will Stab you in the back twice over and get their buddy's to join in, it's just how things tend to work even in real life.
But the low sec pirate's tend to be the ones with the honor (which sounds silly) like said before the reputation is the best way of making money
|
Lars Lodar
Suicidal Tendencies Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 23:41:00 -
[12]
Yeah, I should have added that when it comes to war decs, 0.0, or FW pvp, honor generally isn't a factor since the motivations to fight are generally based on territory, griefing, profits, etc.
|
Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
|
Posted - 2008.09.16 23:45:00 -
[13]
Honor?
What is this "Honor" you speak of?
|
Vor'an
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:03:00 -
[14]
|
Vor'an
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:05:00 -
[15]
From my limited experience with the game so far (a month or so of carebear play in a trading/mining corp) I have seen the gamut of PvPers here.
They seem to break down into a few distinct categories:
a) can flipper baiters who are spoiling for an unfair fight with a highsec miner. Again it's usually not about the money - look at how many say they just want to destroy the ore, or leave it behind. I guess you can vendor the mining lasers. Not all flippers I've seen are like this, but most of the tactics involve social manipulation to trick the target into flagging himself so you can destroy him.
b) Bored kids who can't venture out of highsec alone in their mighty pvp-fit ships and want to "duel" people "just to half armour". Yeah. I've seen several people in local complain about hoe "just to half armor" means "destroy your ship".
c) "can someone help me with this mission?" Clever you, you got a newbie to offer his help and he warps right to you and three of your friends where you blow him up for falling for your trap.
d) real, honest to god, honourable pvpers and pirates. They are out there. Of course, the trouble is (or the beauty depending on how you look at the game) is that you just cannot tell ahead of time who to trust and who to be wary of, so you have to be wary of everyone. The employment history, bio and sec status of players can give you some idea, but it's not always concrete. Unless you're one of the well known honourable pirates the choice you are faced with is "do I pay the ransom, and then have my ship and pod destroyed anyway?" or "pay the ransom and hope the guy is an honourable pirate who lets me on my way after negotiating a deal". Since you're against a guy who holds all the cards, you might as well just default to "I'm not going to pay" since there's a 95% chance he's going to take your money and pod you anyway. Sorry to all the real pirates out there who stick to their word, but such is the way.
All of these things are to be expected, given the nature of the game and the way it is set up. Every time you leave dock you might get blown up. Every time you are about to undock you need to check your clone etc etc, all the guides are there to lessen the impact of someone who wants to ruin your day.
My only real complaint about the game's pvp system is the ease at which you can render concord useless: wardec. I have no problem with wardecs as a principle, however, it is entirely too easy for a pirate corp to decide hey, let's grief these players who are just starting out at the game" with a 50 million fee (which is nothing at all) to essentially turn the entire game into 0.0 space for your newbies who have been in the game for almost no time at all and blow them out of the sky, or ransom them for all the isk they have then pod them anyway "just because".
I can see that the escalating fees for multiple wars that has been introduced is supposed to help curb this a little, but it just lessens the problem slightly since griefing corps can just rotate around defenceless targets. Sure, they'll say "just hire some mercs" or "get some really cheap T1 frigs and meet them head on!" and yet strangely your weaker targets are somehow playing "unfairly" if they decide to wait it out in a station or changing corps to escape the "totally fair" T2 battleship + 4x tackler frigates vs your 1.5mill SP mission-running destroyer fight. Everyone always chimes how "Eve is not a fair universe! Deal with it!" yet somehow when your defenceless prey wants to run and hide they scream "hey, no fair! that's an exploit! I demand to kill newbies so I can feel like a big man!"
I am greatly looking forward to pvp - when I have the skills and the cash to support it. Right now I'm just getting a feel for the game, doing some mining, some missions etc. I highly doubt CCP intended war declarations to be a "fee to grief freely" mechanic rather than a "warring corporations ask concord to leave them in peace to slug it out" mechanic.
|
Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:05:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gwendalyne Do you guys hate carebears that much?
Yes
Ok.. ok.. Don't really hate any many of the players.
I think that most people serious about PvP are looking for a good fight more than anything. Honor goes a long way to making it happen. And it does happen, but as in RL, you run into all types in game.
As for your war dec situation. Grab some t1 frigs and bring it to them. You'll die, but you'll learn, and it's a lot more fun than hanging out in a station. Who knows, you may even take some of them down.
---- Train more. Whine less.
|
Redback911
Malevolent Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:07:00 -
[17]
Honour your corpmates
Honour your Blues
Honour your ransoms
Kill and rip off everything else.
|
Aseir Miristar
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:31:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Aseir Miristar on 17/09/2008 00:31:31 I am a CEO alt with nothing to add to this discussion.
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:32:00 -
[19]
Honor exists to the extent that having a reputation for being honorable is profitable in the long run. For example, a pirate with a reputation for dishonoring a ransom will find it difficult to get future ransoms, so it pays to be "honorable".
Beyond that? Worthless, obsolete concept. Those of us without honor will be happy to take advantage of you fools who care about it.
|
Arvald
Caldari Ninjas N Pirates
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:45:00 -
[20]
only if there is isk involved
|
|
Lady Karma
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 01:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Lady Karma on 17/09/2008 01:46:27 When I see OP's like this I am tempted to say, all kinds of rude things.
Instead I will throw the question back, how do you define honour? For me it is not backstabbing people that trust me. And you know what, I earned that trust. So for those guys, I am honourable, to the rest of you...**** off
I don't give a rats ass about some random idiot in a ship.
Edit: Agreeing with redback
|
Darkopteron
DIE WITH HONOUR
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 02:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Redback911 Honour your corpmates
Honour your Blues
Honour your ransoms
Kill and rip off everything else.
Those are pretty much the rules I go by. There's nothing else to it.
However in this sandbox game you can be as honorable or dishonorable as you want, it's just a case of setting your own standards... and some people are lower than others.
|
Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 03:34:00 -
[23]
Honour exists in EvE just as it does in real life: as a personal choice, not an enforced one.
Insofar as you have a problem it is with the players, not the game.
|
Stuckwtf
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 03:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Redback911 Honour your corpmates
Honour your Blues
Honour your ransoms
Kill and rip off everything else.
This, more or less. Most pewers operate by these simple rules. It's not usually in anyone's best interest to violate them.
As for the OP, your wardeccers are just trying to make an honest buck. Pay up and they will go away, for a while. Start killing them and they will definitely not bother you again. Deccing bear corps isn't about epeens or honor, it's just a way to make ISK without engaging in dreaded PVE. If you have a problem with it, learn to fight back, and it will stop happening to you.. maybe you'll even take it up as a career option yourself. Fighting back successfully doesn't require ISK or SP, it just takes a little organization to get you some practical experience.
|
Lavraen
Minmatar Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 09:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gwendalyne , "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.
You shouldn't put it in your mouth then...
Lavraen |
PsychoBones
R.E.C.O.N.
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 10:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lavraen
Originally by: Gwendalyne , "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.
You shouldn't put it in your mouth then...
--------------------------------------------------------------
R.E.C.O.N. - Helping a soon-to-be defunct alliance failurecascade near you. |
ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 10:27:00 -
[27]
There is no honor in PVP in EVE. Even when you are evenly matched in forces and only player skill will decide the outcome, people will not engage you on equal terms, so you have to trick them, or they trick you.
PVP is all about trickery and psychology, making yourself seem weaker than you are, luring the opponent into traps, boxing them in where they can't escape and so on.
The only "honorable" pvp that can happen is 1v1, which is completely uninteresting except as an excercise in mine-is-bigger-than-yours rhetoric.
On the other hand, I prefer it like this, the warm fuzzy feeling you get after a successful psychological trap is unbeatable, and oftentimes you get more even and equal fights this way than if people had agreed to fight 10 ships against 10 ships, period.
|
Kresh Vladir
The Movement
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 11:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lars Lodar Don't listen to the trolls.
I've been a professional pirate for quite some time now and I can tell you that my friends and I take honor very seriously. We never dishonor a ransom or planned fight such as a 1v1. Reputation is very important for most pirates as it's a good way to make isk.
Last night I challenged 2 Myrmidons to fight my drake. I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules. I probably could have escaped but I stuck to my word and let him take the kill. We talked for some time afterward and he even tried to recruit me.
Stuff like that happens all the time at least in small fights in low sec. Just gotta have a good attitude and treat your opponent with respect whether you win or loose.
I used to be a merc in KIA and im now a pirate again but what Lars said kinda sums it up for me aswell, both as a merc and as a pirate. I have never been dishonest in Eve and i never will (maily because i make isk playing poker so i dont need to scam ppl :))
Also another thing you cant forget, EVE is a HARD game, its not for everyone and the average player age is higher than most other games.
And the smacking in local, well that will come in any game just learn to ignore it.
|
eXtas
Atomic Battle Penguins
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 12:08:00 -
[29]
there is no honor in eve, ppl just look for a good way to scam, kill, grief... but its ok after you accept that and dont trust anyone to much and just go out have fun
allso you can easyly block anoying ppl
sorry I didnt care to read your post... -------- Signature too large. Please resize to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator |
Kazang
Gallente Arbitrary Freedom
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 12:52:00 -
[30]
There is some honor but most of the time pvp is an ambush or camp or blob gank. Which are all valid tactics with a high chance of success and are based off the principle that pvp in eve is war. All is fair. You might call real life warfare tactics such as carpet bombing and guerilla warfare not honourable but such is life, you do what you need to do to win.
However you will find certain honour in duels and other kinds of small scale pvp, a lot of people will honour a 1v1, not all certainly but you are always going to have someone people who want an easy kill mail. There us honor in eve, just dont expect it and think of it is a nice surprise when some doesn't try to **** you over.
Kazang
|
|
Paradox H
Caldari Filthy Scum
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:04:00 -
[31]
Op,
If you're entering your 3rd week of being camped I'd suggest having a word with your corp mates who are obviously giving away easy kills. Most griefing corps will stop bothering you if they are getting no kills for their killboard.
In my experience most empire war-decs are done for the pvp - mostly dishonourably. YOU ARE AT WAR SO EXPECT TO BE GANKED. 1 V 1 is for WOW and people flashing their epeens.
Honour is a lovely concept but is ultimately a form of self-imposed restriction... Most pvp'ers are in the game for the killmails no matter how they are acquired, so why would one restrict the ways in which we can obtain them?
|
eddie valvetino
Caldari ECP Rogues
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:11:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ikaa LoveYums Honor is this game? Doesn't exist
post with you main.
Yes there is honour, when I pirate, if the guys pays me, he buys the rest of the day. If 1vs1.. I never bring mates.
My word is my bond
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) |
Abulurd Boniface
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:26:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Gwendalyne First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.
I am a devout carebear, having come from a long line of MMO's with (Optional) PvP in them. I actually used to like PvP until I played those games, at which point the extremely childish attitudes of people made me cringe. Bad typing, overuse of PVP jargon and the general obsessive need to shout at the top of one's lungs, "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.
Here I come upon EVE, and see that it's (within limits) a whole game worth of PVP. I actually did NOT cringe, because I knew that, in the usual case of all-world PVP, there was going to be some sense of honor involved. Unspoken rules, political en'tandre, things like that...
After reading this forum a while (mostly for the lulz) I have yet to see this honor, yet I know it exists here SOMEWHERE. I can see the PVP community is more mature here (though you still need to work on the phallus wielding part) so I am pleased. However, in the two months I have been in my corp, I am now sitting in station twiddling my thumbs during our THIRD grief-week. Do you guys hate carebears that much?
So basically, I am confused as to how this game's PVP seems the same as the rest, even though I KNOW it's different.
Please be kind when you post -- if you feel you must flame, at least be objective when you do it.
There certainly is honor in PvP in this game.
The sum total of it is displayed in a side corridor of one of the trade centers in Jita system [we don't know where exactly it is, it gets moved a lot as the janitor is doing his rounds - go see the shift supervisor, I'm sure she's seen a picture of it during her training initiation, it's a small wooden cupboard with a Veldspar ornament on top, shaped like an e-peen].
Honor is used as a marketing ploy in this game. The pirates insist they have it [they go to Jita too, maybe they've even seen the ornament] so people will hand over ransom money after which they get blown up anyway, for although the pirate claims he has honor, he's not the one who actually has it -this specific week-. Some people here have no problem with the cognitive disconnect that they should be trusted even though they just tried to blow up your ship without prior aggression. In fact, not trusting them despite that expedient only serves as a clear indication of your mental deficiency. It's all "how they play the game" you see.
It has to be acknowledged that aggression in this game is lawful and that you should prepare for it even if you were not the one who engaged in it. I can see legitimate grounds for aggression outside of piracy.
But that is not where honor comes in [in its most vocal form]. What galls me is that it is invoked by the people who insist they have the right to harm you and that you should accept and celebrate that because it's part of how they want to play the game [and they want to be rewarded for it on top of that!].
EVE -is- an awesome game and it offers great PvP opportunity [a lot more fight than you think you're up for, especially when you're a carebear] if that is what you are looking for.
What you should abandon is the notion of honor. Some people genuinely have it, but it would be asking entirely too much to scan the breadth of the universe to map it out exactly, as I'm sure you'll agree.
Do not count on honor. Assume that this is a concentrated form of real life, where trust is a quintessentially fragile commodity. Trust no one if you can help it.
There is a way out of twiddling your thumbs for 3 weeks in station. If you're interested to find out how, talk to me in the game universe.
Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO
|
Zedrik Cayne
Gallente Session9 Malum Exuro
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Redback911 Honour your corpmates
Honour your Blues
Honour your ransoms
Kill and rip off everything else.
This...
And other than an R.. There is no HONOR in PVP here. --
Remember: Carebears aren't people. They are giant flying pi±atas.
|
H Lecter
Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 14:08:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface Some people here have no problem with the cognitive disconnect that they should be trusted even though they just tried to blow up your ship without prior aggression.
Yes, I'm allowed to kill you and will do so repeatedly if there is an opportunity (in game)! And definitely yes, you can trust me that I will honor this statement.
|
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 14:22:00 -
[36]
To be honest with you, OP...
While we do have our contingent of WoWtards and CounterStrikers Anonymous, a good section of the combat pilots out there are mature adults.
But most of us don't see the point in e-honor. At the end of the day, this is a sandbox (or close to it these days...) where you define what is acceptable and unacceptable at a personal level. I personally don't have any problems lying to you if I have a reason to, nor do I have any problem with stealing or sabotaging another a target.
Its part of the game in my book. But concepts like honor are subjective and should not be expected from everyone, or else you're going to be bit in the ass a lot.
Football? Hell yes. |
Kyle Klanen
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 14:41:00 -
[37]
I don't think the OP is talking about honouring ransoms or doing right by people who do you right i think hes on about pvp in a queensbury rules sense, for an example "we wont bring ECM and we will only bring 4 people in cruisers" and both sides agree and stick to it.
OP should try pen and paper RPGs he might have more luck.
|
Gwendalyne
Caldari Angelic Industries
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 16:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Lady Karma Edited by: Lady Karma on 17/09/2008 01:46:27 When I see OP's like this I am tempted to say, all kinds of rude things.
Instead I will throw the question back, how do you define honour? For me it is not backstabbing people that trust me. And you know what, I earned that trust. So for those guys, I am honourable, to the rest of you...**** off
I don't give a rats ass about some random idiot in a ship.
Edit: Agreeing with redback
Hmmm... Well, you have a point, in that the definition of honor is subjective.
I suppose to me, honor is less about doing something to **** people off, and more about being honest when someone asks you about it. By that definition, nothing in itself is worth any honor, but is made such by your attitude on the subject.
In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me. What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible. Griefers do this well, but Pirates don't seem to, and they both PvP, soooo......
I apologize to the REAL pirates I may have offended, and refine my statement to be: I don't mind PvP'ers, I just abhor griefing for sport.
"Videogames don't make People into RL Killers, but the People who make Videogames Killing into RL." |
Paradox H
Caldari Filthy Scum
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 17:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gwendalyne In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me. What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible. Griefers do this well, but Pirates don't seem to, and they both PvP, soooo.......[/quote
Griefing brings it's own rewards such as an amusingly full killboard. Slapstick humour in the way you might point and laugh "Why did he undock?"...."Why would he fly a mining Ferox while at war?" I'm afraid other peoples misfortune / stupidity (sometimes one causes the other) will always be a source of fun for some people. I include myself in this even though I consider myself a mature adult. There is obviously a line... but I'm not sure it's crossable (is that a word?) in an internet spaceship game!
|
DeltaPhalanx
Caldari Hordes Of Belial The Nexus Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 19:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: eddie valvetino
Originally by: Ikaa LoveYums Honor is this game? Doesn't exist
post with you main.
He posted with his PvP main; what more can you ask for?
|
|
Jonny 101
Art of War Exalted.
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 20:14:00 -
[41]
Honor is an idiotic term choked to death in its infancy by its subjective nature.
To put that in c and p speak.
Honor is just the grown up version of "i'm right you're wrong neeeener!".
-------------------------------- Forsooth brave knight, for I am not the Kublai alt thy art looking for |
Neo Rainhart
Caldari Leela's Lamas
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 21:25:00 -
[42]
MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ...
(and no there is no honor )
|
Landrassa
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company R.E.P.O.
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 21:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Neo Rainhart MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ...
(and no there is no honor )
My Phallus-shaped ship has 7 phallus-shaped weapons on it. Your turn
|
FoulBeast
Gallente Malum Crusis IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 21:40:00 -
[44]
My double ended Phallus shaped weapon has 16 small phallus shaped blasters on it (hype with electrons)
|
Daitetsu Minase
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 22:00:00 -
[45]
Honor is a lie.
Trust is something else.
But a man's word is all he has in Eve. So a lot of people will choose to accede to a request for a 1 v 1, or to give a ransom.
But in a world with corp-spies, corpthiefs, blatant metagaming encouraged by the devs (Thank you so much, power of two.) :-(, Goons, and BoBBers, honor is naught but a lie.
But a man's word is something else. I may gank you from behind with a sniper-fit ship, but if I have time to ransom you, and you pay, I let you go. That way I don't provoke you any further, and you don't pay a merc corp to come and pod me repeatedly.
But that's not honor. It's good business sense.
|
Feilamya
Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 22:31:00 -
[46]
I have read all of the op.
His point is that he has no problem with PVP, unless it happens to him.
|
Kailiao
Ghosts of the Revolution The Red Skull
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 03:18:00 -
[47]
Originally by: ApaKaka There is no honor in PVP in EVE. Even when you are evenly matched in forces and only player skill will decide the outcome, people will not engage you on equal terms, so you have to trick them, or they trick you.
PVP is all about trickery and psychology, making yourself seem weaker than you are, luring the opponent into traps, boxing them in where they can't escape and so on.
The only "honorable" pvp that can happen is 1v1, which is completely uninteresting except as an excercise in mine-is-bigger-than-yours rhetoric.
On the other hand, I prefer it like this, the warm fuzzy feeling you get after a successful psychological trap is unbeatable, and oftentimes you get more even and equal fights this way than if people had agreed to fight 10 ships against 10 ships, period.
Lol, how many times have you failed at pvp, before you came up with this lame excuse
(Cowards run and hide, use trickery, and a overwelming force to win battles, nothing wrong with this tactic, but the fact that you will never be rememberd is something to think about)
4 vs 13 is the way i like it mate, and i do well at it, it's not that hard to fit a ship right.
|
Antman159
Caldari Super Awesome Villains Forever
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 03:19:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Redback911 Honour your corpmates
Honour your Blues
Honour your ransoms
Kill and rip off everything else.
This guy knows what he's talking about.
|
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 03:31:00 -
[49]
What is this "honor" you speak of? It sounds remarkably like "honour", the concept of judging a person's trustworthiness or social status based on his or her past actions and their treatment of others, but I could be wrong. -----
CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander |
Karrade Krise
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 05:15:00 -
[50]
Honor is rare, and common all at the same time in EVE. It's really hard to tell who is honorable or not. *depends on your view of what's honorable*
I've played the pirate for most of my eve career. The best examples of honor I can find in EVE is Eve Online Poker, and certain pirate corps/individuals that honor ransoms.
Pirates whom dishonor ransoms are dispisable by more experienced pirates because by killing the ransomee you're making him not want to pay the next time he gets caught, which means the rest of us honorable 'rats don't make money when we catch the same guys
|
|
Tasuk
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 07:13:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Gwendalyne In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me. What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible. Griefers do this well, but Pirates don't seem to, and they both PvP, soooo......
I apologize to the REAL pirates I may have offended, and refine my statement to be: I don't mind PvP'ers, I just abhor griefing for sport.
It is griefing only in your eyes. In their eyes it is winning the game as each time they score a victory over your corp they feel good about themselves for winning at internet spaceships. And there is nothing wrong in feeling good about winning games, it is only natural. Each player vs player conflict will have a winner and loser. To label the winner "griefer" when you are losing just because your gaming experience was ruined is a form of covered up smacktalk and is just childish imho.
If your corp was smart they would have prepared for this. You do this by either keeping members pvp-ready or a much easier option for carebear corps that do not enjoy pvp is to have a wardec savings account which you can use to hire someone to protect you. If you are in a noobcorp, soz, that's just the risk you take when joining noobcorps. But if people in your corp have been playing 3+ months they should have seen this coming and got prepared.
|
Scagga Laebetrovo
Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 08:42:00 -
[52]
Originally by: eddie valvetino
Originally by: Ikaa LoveYums Honor is this game? Doesn't exist
post with you main.
Yes there is honour, when I pirate, if the guys pays me, he buys the rest of the day. If 1vs1.. I never bring mates.
My word is my bond
Honour means nothing in an online game.
|
Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests Pure.
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 10:20:00 -
[53]
Correction, it means nothing to some people. Honour is a very personal concept which is not necessarily applicable to any mmo in general though. Eve is full of good people, but piracy is role-play and really, mugging people isn't a very honourable occupation is it .
Unless you're involved in role play war decks, you're odds of finding an honourable assailant are quite low around here m8. -------------------------
|
Commoner
Caldari Empire Harassment
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 10:23:00 -
[54]
Honor, lovers your profit. Best to fight on your own terms.
|
Aesheera
Amarr Malum Crusis IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 10:59:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Aesheera on 18/09/2008 11:04:04
Originally by: Paradox H Most pvp'ers are in the game for the killmails no matter how they are acquired, so why would one restrict the ways in which we can obtain them?
I doubt this. Killmail w***es are out there and everybody participates in it at some point. But if EVE would lose the killmails completely, I wouldnt really be bothered.
Its the fights you want, not so much the text you can get afterwards. Besides, a ransom pleases me quite a good bit more too.
As far as honor goes: Honor ransoms, 1v1s and every other gentleman's agreement you make. Outside of that: if it bleeds, kill it. Combat pilots, industrialists - its all good. No remorse, no care for w/e life's work that hauler might have in its cargo or how much work that guy put in to afford his Rattlesnake.
Lock, Point, blow up, move on.
|
Thamuzz
Minmatar Nexus Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 11:48:00 -
[56]
There is honour.
(In my awesome honour tank)
|
Diehard Si
UK1 Zero G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 12:14:00 -
[57]
YOu enter Eve, you think ...'Oh this seems nice and relaxed'. You get chatty to people, it seems a nice place.
WRONG
Eve is PVP. If you're not fighting, your mining, your trading etc. By its very nature its you against everyone.
While honour exists between blues, when it comes to PVP... generally the most ruthless win. Its not cheating, it doesn't make you a bad person, its a computer game and you're playing a 'bad guy' in it. You can't pause and go back, its winner takes all. People that don't adopt this philosophy generally lose a lot. To become a winner in the game you need to be ruthless!
People will be honourable until they learn this. They'll honour the 1on1 and get ganked, they'll help on the mission and get ganked. So they are down on isk, and the di-honourable guy got a kill and your stuff....hmmm, so where do you go from here?
|
ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 12:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Diehard Si YOu enter Eve, you think ...'Oh this seems nice and relaxed'. You get chatty to people, it seems a nice place.
WRONG
Eve is PVP. If you're not fighting, your mining, your trading etc. By its very nature its you against everyone.
While honour exists between blues, when it comes to PVP... generally the most ruthless win. Its not cheating, it doesn't make you a bad person, its a computer game and you're playing a 'bad guy' in it. You can't pause and go back, its winner takes all. People that don't adopt this philosophy generally lose a lot. To become a winner in the game you need to be ruthless!
People will be honourable until they learn this. They'll honour the 1on1 and get ganked, they'll help on the mission and get ganked. So they are down on isk, and the di-honourable guy got a kill and your stuff....hmmm, so where do you go from here?
QFT as far the game play goes really. When it comes to interpersonal relationships, I believe there can be honor in the way you behave yourself.
* Don't smack when you win or bash your GIANT PHALLOS in their head indiscriminately * Honor ransoms * Honor deals that you make, if you don't want to fight on equal terms (1v1 or whatever) don't, but don't lie about it. * Don't be a tard.
PVP is about fun and breaking other people's assets, not about making your victims feel hateful or sad.
|
Ishamel 1
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 13:20:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Lars Lodar I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules.
Guns? on a drake? no wonder they overheated.
As for the op, well greifers aren't pvpers, they are greifers. Its more like failed pvpers.
|
Calypso's Wrath
Caldari Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 14:08:00 -
[60]
Before you go too far into this game, here is a bit of advise:
In Eve, there is no honor but there is respect. If you can show yourself to be a good combat pilot, your enemies will respect your skill. Prove yourself to you, because in Eve, your the only one with honor.
-CW
|
|
Syringe
Morphine Inc
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 14:51:00 -
[61]
The honor here is that you have just as much opportunity to defend yourself as they have of attacking you. Either you hire a mercenary corp to get rid of them, or you fight. If you can't do either, I would suggest reconsidering how your corp is structured. In fact, I would start considering how some other corps are structured (i.e. quit yours) --------- War isn't the answer. However, the objective isn't to provide answers rather than eliminate the question. |
Round House
Destry's Lounge
|
Posted - 2008.09.18 16:38:00 -
[62]
I like how people want honor on a video game
|
Torrstar
Stormfront B.O.A. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 12:27:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Torrstar on 19/09/2008 12:27:35 Best answer to this I can give is this quote I read,
"In EVE no one gives a damn about a fair fight."
Now me, there's things I won't do, like can-flip miners, or bait noobs with cargo containers, but that's a personal choice, and I don't expect anyone else to live by my code.
And I'm not that noble, when out in a roaming gang, I have no problems chasing down a hapless solo victim and blowing them out of the sky, none of this one on one, mano a mano stuff, I want to win with overwhelming odds at my back.
Because, in the end, winning is all that matters.
You can bring honor to your combat in EVE, just don't expect anyone else to and you'll never be disappointed.
|
Lateraal
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 13:24:00 -
[64]
honestly i beleave that you will find more honest players in lowsec then in highsec. the pirates in lowsec only want to pvp and care less about grief play. they lose ships and consider it normal, nobody will cry over a loss. how can you grief over something that is not a loss.
tho the carebears of empire are the ones that are corrupt. they are greedy and disrespectufull. not knowing how to play the game of pvp they try to make up for it by hurassing there own carebear kind.
|
AltBier
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 15:53:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Jimer Lins The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.
Heh heh, thank you for my new sig.
Quote: The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.
|
Plim
Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 16:16:00 -
[66]
I've actually seen plenty of honor in EVE over the years.
Be it from corp mates willing to back you up against unlikely odds, to people honouring 1v1s, and so on.
I see nothing odd about 'honor' in a video game, because this is an MMO, it's big part of the game, much of it wouldn't function without some degree of community and fraternity. Even amongst pirates honor (honesty) is important if they want to make sure people will pay ransoms and their corporations to continue to exist.
I was -10 on another character for a long time. And I would still keep my word. I would gank randoms all day, but I couldn't lie in an agreed 1v1, or not honor a ransom, that wouldn't sit well with me at all.
This all depends on what you mean by 'honor', it's a very subjective idea. I don't think it's 'dishonorable', when you get ganked by people you don't even know, or scammed. Because that's part of the game mechanics. I do not not find it 'dishonorable' when someone puts me in check in a game of chess, because I had to create the pre-conditions to get there within a shared set of rules, the same is often true in EVE. The EVE mechanics usually don't let someone get hurt, unless they put themselves in a position where they can be attacked in some way.
The term 'griefing' is used way too often. Though I can understand people being frustrated if they come underattack when they are complete noobs. However, that is often how people learn pvp in this game.
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
Zaragram Sarikusa
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 16:37:00 -
[67]
Everyone has their own rules of engagement, but there's no real overarching code of conduct other than the game rules. You can be as honourable as you want, but it's obviously going to place you at a disadvantage to people who aren't following your personal rules. You will find forms of honour within various communities of the game, in this forum there is certainly a stigma associated with people who break ransom and 1v1 agreements, but the people who do can still find likeminded players to enjoy the game with even if it may stop them from joining some of the better known and respected pirate corps. |
ellie mayer
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:36:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Ikaa LoveYums Honor is this game? Doesn't exist
nor does pvp, just gank or run tbh
|
Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:37:00 -
[69]
Originally by: AltBier
Originally by: Jimer Lins The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.
Heh heh, thank you for my new sig.
Hah, no worries.
|
Dire Radiant
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:41:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Gwendalyne
Hmmm... Well, you have a point, in that the definition of honor is subjective.
I suppose to me, honor is less about doing something to **** people off, and more about being honest when someone asks you about it. By that definition, nothing in itself is worth any honor, but is made such by your attitude on the subject.
You hit the nail on the head right here. Being honorable is sticking to your word.
Originally by: Gwendalyne
In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me.
Wait... Betrayal is breaking your word and is dishonorable. Now you are saying that its fine by you?
Originally by: Gwendalyne What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible.
This has nothing to do with honor. You find all of the mixes. Dishonorable Carebears. Honorable Griefers.
Gwendalyne, I think you are confused and do not really know what you are complaining about here. For one part you say being dishonorable is bad, then you say its fine, then you say griefing is bad which really has nothing to do with honor.
|
|
jimmyjam
Gallente Wise Guys Exquisite Malevolence
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 21:06:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Gwendalyne First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.
I am a devout carebear, having come from a long line of MMO's with (Optional) PvP in them. I actually used to like PvP until I played those games, at which point the extremely childish attitudes of people made me cringe. Bad typing, overuse of PVP jargon and the general obsessive need to shout at the top of one's lungs, "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.
Here I come upon EVE, and see that it's (within limits) a whole game worth of PVP. I actually did NOT cringe, because I knew that, in the usual case of all-world PVP, there was going to be some sense of honor involved. Unspoken rules, political en'tandre, things like that...
After reading this forum a while (mostly for the lulz) I have yet to see this honor, yet I know it exists here SOMEWHERE. I can see the PVP community is more mature here (though you still need to work on the phallus wielding part) so I am pleased. However, in the two months I have been in my corp, I am now sitting in station twiddling my thumbs during our THIRD grief-week. Do you guys hate carebears that much?
So basically, I am confused as to how this game's PVP seems the same as the rest, even though I KNOW it's different.
Please be kind when you post -- if you feel you must flame, at least be objective when you do it.
Honor is in the eye of the beholder.Some see it some dont some use it and some dont.
|
Ambrosious Martin
Son of Man
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 21:19:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Lars Lodar
Last night I challenged 2 Myrmidons to fight my drake. I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules. Quote:
WTB a drake with turret hardpoints!!!
|
Grandis Fustis
Destry's Lounge
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 21:23:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Lateraal honestly i beleave that you will find more honest players in lowsec then in highsec. the pirates in lowsec only want to pvp and care less about grief play. they lose ships and consider it normal, nobody will cry over a loss. how can you grief over something that is not a loss.
tho the carebears of empire are the ones that are corrupt. they are greedy and disrespectufull. not knowing how to play the game of pvp they try to make up for it by hurassing there own carebear kind.
I could'nt agree more
|
Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv Pirate Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.09.19 23:00:00 -
[74]
Your pretty gay or stupid to accept a 1vs1. Your either going to setup your ship for duels aka no pvp mods or have someone else do the same on your ship. It takes a redock and ship fittings screen to win most duels.
|
Terra Mikael
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 04:43:00 -
[75]
/poasting in fail e-honor thread
|
Keeves
Minmatar the evil ones Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 08:15:00 -
[76]
Ive done every type of piracy. Highsec, lowsec, and just lately nullsec and I'll have to admit highsec piracy has by far the most character to it. Elitists like to build themselves up by saying nosec or even lowsec is where real pvp is done, and i agree that an opponent is usually more compitent in those theatre's, the process of pvp is alot more entertaining in highsec since there is alot more social manipulation and playing with your target, like a cat plays with a mouse, then in lowsec or nullsec.
That being said, don't expect any honor from highsec pirates cause you won't get it. They are literally there to screw with people and no other reason. If you expect any different you are just letting yourself down. heh... i miss highsec haha much more of a hunt then anywhere else...
|
Nubswarm001
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 08:43:00 -
[77]
ha! Honour. In eve...
Damned Yanks...polluting the English language... Honour!
|
Gwendalyne
Caldari Angelic Industries
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 09:25:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:29:54 Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:28:57 Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:28:13 Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:27:37 Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:26:32 Okay guys, I have a few things to clear up here...
First off--
Originally by: Feilamya I have read all of the op.
His point is that he has no problem with PVP, unless it happens to him.
Uhhhh, self-contradictory post fails? If you HAD read the post you would find I have no problem with being blown up. Or ganked, or owned, or whatever you want to call it. Read on please...
Second--
Originally by: Tasuk It is griefing only in your eyes. In their eyes it is winning the game as each time they score a victory over your corp they feel good about themselves for winning at internet spaceships. And there is nothing wrong in feeling good about winning games, it is only natural. Each player vs player conflict will have a winner and loser. To label the winner "griefer" when you are losing just because your gaming experience was ruined is a form of covered up smacktalk and is just childish imho.
When two ships fight, with somewhat equal skill levels, OR somehwt equal tactics, and one loses, the other is the winner.
Now, if the loser has no weapons to fight with, the winner becomes an opportunist.
And if the loser's gaming experience is ruined by this, that's unfortunate, but the winner is still only an opportunist.
BUT... When the winner KNOWS ALL OF THIS, and HAS IT IN HIS MIND, to kill someone, NOT for a killmail, NOT for their ship's contents, NOT for an easy kill, and ONLY to make his victim hurt, THAT makes him a greifer.
=============== Now, Ted Thompson may be quite an idiot, but to a much lesser degree, he is right. The Internet (TM) allows us to express, in the EXTREME and UNPUNISHED SENSE, the kind of desires we have in our hearts. That does NOT mean all people who kill others in video games have any compunction to do it in real life, but KILLING someone in a game is the extreme and un-punished version of... perhaps simply insulting them?
So as much as you people would like to say you wouldn't steal from people in RL like you do in EVE, ask yourself what feelings theft in EVE brings you, and I would BET something you do in RL gives you the same feeling. ===============
Originally by: Dire Radiant Gwendalyne, I think you are confused and do not really know what you are complaining about here. For one part you say being dishonorable is bad, then you say its fine, then you say griefing is bad which really has nothing to do with honor.
Let me try to make it simple... I hope. Anything goes as long as the reason for it isn't "HAHA how miserable did I make you feel!!" and nothing else.
Originally by: Keeves Ive done every type of piracy. Highsec, lowsec, and just lately nullsec and I'll have to admit highsec piracy has by far the most character to it. Elitists like to build themselves up by saying nosec or even lowsec is where real pvp is done, and i agree that an opponent is usually more compitent in those theatre's, the process of pvp is alot more entertaining in highsec since there is alot more social manipulation and playing with your target, like a cat plays with a mouse, then in lowsec or nullsec.
That being said, don't expect any honor from highsec pirates cause you won't get it. They are literally there to screw with people and no other reason. If you expect any different you are just letting yourself down. heh... i miss highsec haha much more of a hunt then anywhere else...
I think this is the kind of people warring with us... If they were lowsec types they would much rather get better things from people WITH them, right?
================= Could someone tell me WTF is up with those last two quotes not working? --Never mind, fixed--
"Videogames don't make People into RL Killers, but the People who make Videogames Killing into RL." |
weedmasta
Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 11:13:00 -
[79]
Edited by: weedmasta on 20/09/2008 11:14:42 There is no honor in killing people whether on a virtual environment or in real life. Who ever thinks there is honor in destroying something is a fool who is fooling himself. You won't have honor if you kill a guy yourself or with 5-10 people, in the end you are killing/destroying something. Some people choose a more discrete more challenging approach whereas many others choose the easy streak (like wardeccing a highsec industrial corp.)PVP is not about honor, it is about how much ballz you got which determines the targets you choose to shoot at.
edit: errors ___________________________________
Shuuuun, shuuuun the smacktalkers.
|
Drunk Driver
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 14:58:00 -
[80]
Honor....
Video game....
Honor.....
Video game.....
Honor.....
Video game......
Well crap. That ain't working.
I'm going back to mixing oil and water.
Oil.....
Water.....
Oil.......
Water...................
. |
|
Demitria Fernir
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 15:02:00 -
[81]
Honor in PVP is just like a mix of salt and sugar.
It sucks.
10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 |
Reptar Dragon
THE FINAL STAND
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:29:00 -
[82]
Why do you need honour in PVP, just need a keyboard with F1-F8 keys. After that it isn't PVP, it's just communicaiton.
|
Garok Nor
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2008.09.21 00:09:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Gwendalyne
Hmmm... Well, you have a point, in that the definition of honor is subjective.
I suppose to me, honor is less about doing something to **** people off, and more about being honest when someone asks you about it. By that definition, nothing in itself is worth any honor, but is made such by your attitude on the subject.
In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me. What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible. Griefers do this well, but Pirates don't seem to, and they both PvP, soooo......
I apologize to the REAL pirates I may have offended, and refine my statement to be: I don't mind PvP'ers, I just abhor griefing for sport.
Quote: I ended up cussing the other one out, causing him to re-engage. I will know now to keep my mouth shut.
That'll get you griefed every time IMHO. I woulda popped you too, and would have had some strong words with my buddy (privately) if he suddenly turned ******ed and compensated you after you got popped for smacking. Generally speaking, verbally abusing someone who could cause you serious harm removes any high ground (real or imaginary) you might have. It's also not much of a deterrent either, usually makes them want to kill you more. Well that and whining. I think pvp ships are actually fueled by it.
just MHO YMMV ------------------------------------------------- Items posted by me are in no way a reflection of the policies and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance. {though they maybe really ought to be} |
Monkey Saturday
Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.
|
Posted - 2008.09.21 00:42:00 -
[84]
If you try to win a fight by fighting honourably, not only in Eve, but in real life too, you're doing it very wrong.
Thanks for the Maulus BPO nerf! :D |
Sin Fae
Income Redistribution Service
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 05:27:00 -
[85]
There is plenty of honor, you have plenty of options, and Eve is different in that you are experiencing non-consensual PvP and are forced to interact with other people in this online game.
As many have said, fight back, pay someone to do it, or sit in a station and twiddle your thumb, or pay whatever ransom the pirate corp is telling you to pay, make friends (actually use social skills and rally other corps to join with your fight), etc etc.
Quote: "Justice..is in the hands of those who wish to take it"
|
V1123
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 05:39:00 -
[86]
I am assuming by honor you mean desire to be fair, like having fair fights when it comes to e-combat in video games. No, majority of people do not experience such a desire. They do not want to be fair to you. They want to win. There is a small percentage that wants to have fair fights but not because of you, but because of them, they don't get a kick out of it if the fight isn't challenging. The rest could not care more about being fair.
It is same in video game as it is in real life, only in video game you also have an option of remaining forever anonymous and your actions have no real consequences (because hey, it is just pixels) so whatever inhibitions people had in real life to acting unfair get really lax in video games. So remember this and never expect anyone to act "honorably" so that later it doesn't come as any surprise to you.
|
Yuki Valentine
Basement Innovations
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 06:08:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Jimer Lins The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.
Sad but true
|
Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 06:26:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Gwendalyne Here I come upon EVE, and see that it's (within limits) a whole game worth of PVP. I actually did NOT cringe, because I knew that, in the usual case of all-world PVP, there was going to be some sense of honor involved. Unspoken rules, political en'tandre, things like that...
After reading this forum a while (mostly for the lulz) I have yet to see this honor, yet I know it exists here SOMEWHERE. I can see the PVP community is more mature here (though you still need to work on the phallus wielding part) so I am pleased.
Yes, there is honor in EVE--however you define it. There's just no guarantee that Pilot X shares a Sense of Honor Y.
Your Money or Your Life: the journal of a space pirate
|
The Mag
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 11:52:00 -
[89]
Honor does exist in EVE:
Im mining away in my brand new shiny hulk with cargo rigs, with less than 100AU on its gauges. Almost full, my eyes widen in amazement of how much velds I will be able to pack in her every trip to station.
A small crusier warps in to the belt, I notice a yellow streak across the pilots name and a dreaded skull and cross bones imprinted on the icon. No worries me thinks, I'm not mining into a can anymore this flipper will go away.
He ABs to my position in the belt, I think he might want to bump me out of my lasers range so I tighten my seat belt and wait for the G-force to begin. I sense hes targeting me WTF, I hit warp drive only to realize im not aligned to station, a haze immediately appears around ship I'm not warping I recieve massive damage to shields and armour, and seconds later Im instant warping in my egg.
I get to station, look at my selection of ships and grab my hauler warp to the scene of the crime and grab whats left of my stuff. Back in station, I place my newest arch enemy on my hate list and log....upset kicking dirt smoking...
2 hours later logon,I cant believe it my newest enemy is in station with me, pulse rate taching, look up at my selection of ships, dam no PVP capables, search ah hah DOMI same system, undock in shuttle, full speed ahead, dock wait for scotty, board the DOMI, check setup eeh best I can do for now.
Rush back to original station, to my amazement he still there,yes, undock, position 15k, convo...
"Hey you cost me dearly and Im outside waiting for payback."
Answer "LOL"
"Come out you afraid to fight a armed ship"
Answer "LOL I'm in a shuttle you can blow that up if you like or I can go get a PVP ship 6 jumps"
"I'll be at the scene of the crime"
Pilot returns to system and then returns to the scene of the crime. I ask How is this going to go down"
Answer "take my can" Out pops a can.
Realizing that if I take the can hes corp will gank me I check system for corpies, wow none, I take the can. Battle begins, heart racing, watching my shields go and then his, my armour disappears and so does his, down to hull Im pounding away and so is he, just as I think I have my revenge.
Im back in my POD warping to station.
In station recieve convo " good close fight"
My answer " yep"
Granted this is probably rare
|
pippan
Gallente Synthetic Frontiers
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 11:52:00 -
[90]
Heh if you mean honour as in not sending in your falcon alt to save you from that 1v1 that went bad your gonna be looking a long time =]
The players that can actually take a loss and not whine and ***** and seek revenge via metagaming are usually far less vocal than the ppl who scam/extort/metagame/grief ect. ect. (especially in this forum ^_-)
I for one try not to dishonour 1v1's and stuff. But if they start remote repping with corpmates or theyr being a whiny f*ucker i have no moral doubts about logging on a scmitar or a snipy corp tempest =] ----
|
|
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 13:22:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Redback911 Honour your corpmates
Honour your Blues
Honour your ransoms
Kill and rip off everything else.
truth of EVE right here.
the concept of "honor" in EVE is as utopic as the concept of fair fight.
if it happens, it must be for a reason and not because people are such a nice bunch of people. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 22:09:00 -
[92]
*cough*shameless plug*cough*
and this thread was so interesting, that I made an article about it ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Brother Welcome
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2008.09.24 08:56:00 -
[93]
Interesting thread.
My view is that Eve cuts through the honour myth that our cultures use to... well, I guess to make killing other people seem okay.
Because Eve PvP is lossy, people don't want to lose. So they get to the truth of real warfare fast, and that is it's all about advantages. Two simple truths that many will repudiate:
No one in Eve seeks to fight 1:1. Everyone in Eve likes to pretend they do.
-vk
|
H Lecter
Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2008.09.24 09:20:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Brother Welcome No one in Eve seeks to fight 1:1. Everyone in Eve likes to pretend they do.
1:1 is great - as long as I have the better chances or so much ISK that I don't need to worry about losing the ship I fly
|
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
|
Posted - 2008.09.24 11:16:00 -
[95]
Honor is such a big word, just be nice. But always smack back.
|
LOLOLOLOL XDDD
|
Posted - 2008.09.24 11:19:00 -
[96]
1:1, you vs me and my falcon alt.
|
KeLLaX
HUNLAR the Almighty Scalar Federation
|
Posted - 2008.09.24 15:08:00 -
[97]
I don't think it's honour that you seek but rather matureness, which technically, age-wise, exists in the game but a mature person doesn't have to be mature in character :) This is just one server and you get to see a more diverse crowd. Some people may treat you bad because they like it that way, some people are stressed IRL and just wanna relieve stress that way. In the end of the day, this is just a game and I don't think it's right to bring the issues of honour and maturity here, where they tend to fly away when "having fun" punches in :)
|
Nightsail
|
Posted - 2008.09.24 19:20:00 -
[98]
Actually, there are a few PvPers in EVE who fight with honor. Check out the roleplay alliances and corps, e.g. Electus Matari. They only fight and kill the opposing faction for a reason, to free their people from slavery under the Amarr. In addition, they patrol their space for pirates. They do not, however, randomly kill without reason.
|
Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
|
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:41:00 -
[99]
I've now published my take on honor in EVE.
Your Money or Your Life: the journal of a space pirate
|
Dickens Cider
|
Posted - 2009.01.09 20:23:00 -
[100]
Since there is nothing better in C&P today, I bring you this.... |
|
Chomin H'ak
Integrated Takeovers
|
Posted - 2009.01.09 20:33:00 -
[101]
imo, EvE isn't about honor.
It's about being the guy who walks away from a dogfight, the hauler who narrowly misses the cloaked camp, the trader who just owned yourmomma, the rats who popped several hundred mil in implants SB'ing a gate.
EvE is about the game. All of our trials and tribulations combined make it what it is. From the guy who won to the guy who didn't to the guy who had nothing to do with it but making the mods/ships.
Go look for 'honor' somewhere else.
Honor is for those who cry, "it's not fair".
Oh yeah, and:
MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ
Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
|
jimmyjam
Gallente Sinner Among Saints Exquisite Malevolence
|
Posted - 2009.01.09 21:31:00 -
[102]
Most of eve,s honor left with castor.Allthough someone haveing personal honor with there own pvp is up to the person themself.
|
Sol'Kanar
Minmatar SRIUS BISNIS
|
Posted - 2009.01.09 21:47:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Demitria Fernir Honor in PVP is just like a mix of salt and sugar.
It sucks.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Salt and sugar are, in fact, very complimentary flavors. But you're right about honor and PvP. Fight to win. |
Myxx Deux
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 01:02:00 -
[104]
Hacked Of Newbs Orating Rapaciously? Theres PLENTY of that in Eve, I dont see the OP's point?
|
Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 01:08:00 -
[105]
Necro-Philliac-Adop-Ili-Cous-Poli-Many-Goobly-Gobbly-Windu-Grepp-Winny-Bong!!
Voluntold, New Webcomic
|
Viqer Fell
Minmatar When Hippo Attacks Go Wrong
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 02:07:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Viqer Fell on 10/01/2009 02:12:50 Eve has morphed over the years and mostly the change has picked up momentum as the player base grows.
There is still honour in combat and fun fights to be had. But now these instances and occasions are small islands on a sea of ****e.
The majority of EvE players involved in pvp are all about the e-peen and the win at all costs mentality. Why bring 1 ship to engage 3 and win but risk losing when you can bring 50 and win with no risk and also call the victims idiots in local for dying?
I have played solidly since release. I have run 2 very well established and long term pvp corps both from scratch. TPFM and TNT. Most people in the game now wouldn't even know TPFM but for 2 years it kicked ass all over empire terrorizing amarrians and TNT was a 3 year Merc corp and lately Alliance. I have never once dishonoured a fight, and I have never once walked away thinking that I did something underhand.
I have no problem taking on larger groups of pilots fielding bigger ships against me as long as I know that I have a vague chance of living whilst I enjoy the glory of the fight.
In response to the OP, there is honour in PVP but it's the honour you carry within yourself. Occasionally you will meet a like minded pilot and win or lose you will enjoy the fight and usually the chat afterwards. You just have to trawl through the morass of god awful meta gaming pillocks to glimpse those occasional moments of fun. Reputation is important and people who act like ****s get known for it. Personally if someone feels they can get their jollies by being lame then thats their issue and I'll just pity them that. Worst that can happen is I lose some pretty internet spaceship and go jump in my next one
It's difficult in EvE to learn pvp from the perspective of a PVE corp. Mostly because you'll struggle to form even rudimentary small gangs to any effect and the guys dec'cing you will likely kick your ass so hard you'll be wiping your ass via your mouth.
If you are interested in PVP join a pvp corp. At two months old stick wioth small ships even if thats just T1 frigs. Don't waste your time flying big ships as at that point you simply dont have the support skills to be effective. Become a scout / tackler and learn the ropes. PvP in eve is a mix of boredom and heart racing adrenaline. It's kept me playing now for over 5 years and will do so for many to come.
|
Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 02:22:00 -
[107]
Did someone call for a Troll? I'm here to do some "Raiding."
Bow chicka bow wow.
|
Dickens Cider
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 04:38:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Karrade Krise Necro-Philliac-Adop-Ili-Cous-Poli-Many-Goobly-Gobbly-Windu-Grepp-Winny-Bong!!
You sir, are a king among men!
|
K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 05:01:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Gwendalyne First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.
I am a devout carebear
wrong section... you need to go here IIRC
|
Jack Light
Umbrella Biohazard Counter-Measure Squad
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 05:02:00 -
[110]
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N
Originally by: Gwendalyne First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.
I am a devout carebear
wrong section... you need to go here
FFS Damnit not again
|
|
Dickens Cider
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 05:02:00 -
[111]
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N
Originally by: Gwendalyne First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.
I am a devout carebear
wrong section... you need to go here
Dont think he'll see it - check date of OP
|
Jack Light
Umbrella Biohazard Counter-Measure Squad
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 05:05:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Jack Light on 10/01/2009 05:05:31
Originally by: ****ens Cider
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N
Originally by: Gwendalyne First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.
I am a devout carebear
wrong section... you need to go here
Dont think he'll see it - check date of OP
wtf if the Author doesnt see this work of art, it is wasting my time.
|
Dickens Cider
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 05:07:00 -
[113]
Is time all that is being wasted here?
|
Jack Light
Umbrella Biohazard Counter-Measure Squad
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 05:08:00 -
[114]
Originally by: ****ens Cider Is time all that is being wasted here?
I'm wasting my money as this thread is clearly wasting my electricity.
|
Dickens Cider
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 05:09:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Jack Light
Originally by: ****ens Cider Is time all that is being wasted here?
I'm wasting my money as this thread is clearly wasting my electricity.
Don't forget bandwidth and storage |
Jack Light
Umbrella Biohazard Counter-Measure Squad
|
Posted - 2009.01.10 05:13:00 -
[116]
Originally by: ****ens Cider
Originally by: Jack Light
Originally by: ****ens Cider Is time all that is being wasted here?
I'm wasting my money as this thread is clearly wasting my electricity.
Don't forget bandwidth and storage
yeah. i live to waste ccp's money. |
Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 11:27:00 -
[117]
In the context of Eve, honor is a stupid thing to discuss. If you want to talk about honor go to CHOAD, I hear it comes up a lot over there. |
Lechert
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 11:40:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Malcanis Honour exists in EvE just as it does in real life: as a personal choice, not an enforced one.
Insofar as you have a problem it is with the players, not the game.
THIS
|
Raul Watanabe
Gallente NQX Innovations
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 11:40:00 -
[119]
sometimes yes, mostly no.
Depends who you get, spend some time out in low sec and you will see that there is plenty of both
|
Bob Clive
Union Jack Purists Cult
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 11:47:00 -
[120]
Since were wasting time in a necro thread.
|
|
Dun Bynar
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 13:21:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Dun Bynar on 11/01/2009 13:21:48 For the most part you have heard from the hi sec low sec crowd, as for those that live in 0.0 which by the way makes up the vast MAJORITY of space in EVE, your word, or you lack of it defines YOU, your corp and your alliance. Lotz of people live, play, and quite EVE before ever really experiancing what is quinticentially EVE, many more try to make it and fail, moving back up hi sec, and usually migrate into low sec as the empire just doesnt cut it for them anymore, but they fail to cut it in 0.0. usually for the very reason you inquire about...a lack of personal ethics, and an immature personality. not 100% mind you, but the majority. get out of hi sec, it was never intended to be anyones permanant home, and those that have experianced unfettered living... long for the ability to attack you, but lack the ability to exist where they dont need a war dec to do it. It shall never be lowered, the black flag we bear; If the sea be denied us, we sweep through the air. |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr The Drekla Consortium
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 15:28:00 -
[122]
Honor is nothing more than a social construct used by those in power.
EVE is not based on the construct of honor, it is based on money (power and money can be used interchangeably here) and the players ability in attaining that money. Everything you do in EVE revolves around taking or losing isk, except for those moments when people do stuff for "fun" (which may or may not be true, since the attainment or loss of isk will most likely be occurring).
If you study the concepts and uses of social constructs throughout history you will see certain trends. Honor in particular is used by people in power to keep their subordinates under their control. It is typically "dishonorable" to do anything that would harm your lord. In fact, it is "honorable" to "serve" someone (for free, because if you charge something then there is nothing honorable or noble about that). When it comes to historical fact my knowledge is limited to examples similar to those I have put above. But in modern times you can see this being thrown around a lot. Honor differs from group to group but it is typically used to maintain the status quoe in a group of people.
Just another way THE MAN holds you down!
This coming from someone who tries to be "honorable" in real life even to this day. Of course I put my own twist on it... ---
Put in space whales!
|
Dun Bynar
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 15:55:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Dun Bynar on 11/01/2009 15:55:36
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Honor is nothing more than a social construct used by those in power.
EVE is not based on the construct of honor, it is based on money (power and money can be used interchangeably here)..blah blah blah... .
first off in any sociaty one needs iskies or money to do and abtain........but it is never about the $....the $ is the avenue.....and if he were to look a bit deeper he would find that honor and keeping ones word has always been important...especially between those NOT in power....criminals throughout history have argued there was no reason to do so...only because they want to FEEL they are normal. eve is no different...you have the WoW crowd who just dont get it, and the kids....but for the most part those that inhabit the vast majority of eve space are adults who honor themselves and their word..if you can get them to give it. The Wow crowd and the kids live in low sec and hi sec.....and a few 0.0 corps for brief periods of time till they realize they have to be able to follow and keep their word...then back to hi sec / low sec they go in search of those that expect nothing from them. It shall never be lowered, the black flag we bear; If the sea be denied us, we sweep through the air. |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr The Drekla Consortium
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 16:06:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Dun Bynar Edited by: Dun Bynar on 11/01/2009 15:55:36
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Honor is nothing more than a social construct used by those in power.
EVE is not based on the construct of honor, it is based on money (power and money can be used interchangeably here)..blah blah blah... .
first off in any sociaty one needs iskies or money to do and abtain........but it is never about the $....the $ is the avenue.....and if he were to look a bit deeper he would find that honor and keeping ones word has always been important...especially between those NOT in power....criminals throughout history have argued there was no reason to do so...only because they want to FEEL they are normal. eve is no different...you have the WoW crowd who just dont get it, and the kids....but for the most part those that inhabit the vast majority of eve space are adults who honor themselves and their word..if you can get them to give it. The Wow crowd and the kids live in low sec and hi sec.....and a few 0.0 corps for brief periods of time till they realize they have to be able to follow and keep their word...then back to hi sec / low sec they go in search of those that expect nothing from them.
You haven't exactly said anything that counters the point I was trying to make in my post. You also over-generalize and assume things very bluntly (WoW crowd and "kids" live in low-sec and hi-sec").
This isn't about keeping ones word, as in some groups there is nothing honorable about weakening or limiting yourself to the things you say you'll do.
Please re-read my post. Honor is used to maintain groups and the status quoe, typically by those in power. What is so honorable about keeping your word to a horrible person for example? As long as you never find out he's actually a horrible person or that the things he's telling you to do (aka protect your homeland/corp assets/POS's he's using to line his own pockets on the side) are actually twisted facts of reality, while you are acting under this notion of "honor". |
Dun Bynar
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 21:44:00 -
[125]
lis, heres the deal on your position, and the very same position that many over the mellenia have attempted to support....YOU are not responsible for what other people do....only for what you do. So... does one honor their word to someone of questionable or terrible personal ethics...but of course, if your own ethics are to have any meaning. You see,.. typically those in power rarely have the ability to demonstrate ethics, organizations, governments do not have ethics. They have rules, policy, and procedures, each seperate from the other and having nothing to do with silly things like honor, or honesty. As for my GENERALIZATIONS, they are based on behavior,activity, and the trend in the last year in those types of corps....also based on viewing those individuals over the past few years who have failed at 0.0 living and where they migrate to, and what types of corps they end up in. The young are convinced they are unique, there behaviors,and opinions fresh and new...and therefore unclassifiable...nothing could be further from the truth...they are as easily definable as they are common. |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr The Drekla Consortium
|
Posted - 2009.01.11 23:19:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Dun Bynar lis, heres the deal on your position, and the very same position that many over the mellenia have attempted to support....YOU are not responsible for what other people do....only for what you do. So... does one honor their word to someone of questionable or terrible personal ethics...but of course, if your own ethics are to have any meaning. You see,.. typically those in power rarely have the ability to demonstrate ethics, organizations, governments do not have ethics. They have rules, policy, and procedures, each seperate from the other and having nothing to do with silly things like honor, or honesty. As for my GENERALIZATIONS, they are based on behavior,activity, and the trend in the last year in those types of corps....also based on viewing those individuals over the past few years who have failed at 0.0 living and where they migrate to, and what types of corps they end up in. The young are convinced they are unique, there behaviors,and opinions fresh and new...and therefore unclassifiable...nothing could be further from the truth...they are as easily definable as they are common.
Honor to one group of people is not honor to another group of people. Certain acts are honorable based on the society and their rules.
Across all groups of people honor is usually an extension of maintaining control over the group of people.
If you look at society's where honor is imposed by the government (feudal systems such as the ever so popular Samurai bushido etc. stuff in Japan or the idea of chivalry and feudal serf systems) then it's not a matter of the government demonstrating their own ability to be "honorable" by whatever definition they set down. It's their ability to control people and get them to do things.
I'm not sure if we're arguing the same thing anymore =) |
Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
|
Posted - 2009.01.12 00:13:00 -
[127]
The honor in EVE is in losing well. Whine and cry and smack talk when defeated is childish. .............
|
Dun Bynar
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.01.12 00:21:00 -
[128]
I suppose the point which you wish to defend and support is that honor is a social construct.... and that it is a meer tool used to control the mass. your tool of support is the Bushido social stucture of japan, as well as the draconian feudal lord system of the middle ages. To be honest you are failing to grasp abuse of human nature, as apposed to constructed design for such abuse. Humans in the vast majority while selfish in nature, long for social interaction, and even before any of thse examples, even before written history, man kind developed social standards of behavior in order for the MASS to interact with each other....and since that time there have been those who both abused such, and did not honor such....These were cast out of early social structures
It shall never be lowered, the black flag we bear; If the sea be denied us, we sweep through the air. |
Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
|
Posted - 2009.01.12 03:44:00 -
[129]
Got Flamed?
Here is the thing...
Why do pilots sit outside of stations while other pilots pitch a tent, start a fire and get ready for a long week?
Is this fun? Is this profitable? Perhaps it is good practice for PVP?
Unless they are mercs making some very tediously earned ISK, they are doing this cause its all they can accomplish presently. They cant survive in low sec, they sure cannot claim territory in 0.0. And apparently they cant mobilize any real tactics VS another corp of equal strength and willingness to fight. This is the art of griefing.
Carebears in empire make the very ships they are flying. But they however also offer easy jollies and glimmers on their kill boards. As a pilot breaking into PVP, I have been striving for AF killmails and faction ships from the onset. A steady list of ore ships and haulers is far from impressive.
Best killmail of all time was a friends... Navy Omen beats Armageddon \0/ WooT!! Now thats impressive.
Whats not is how my last Ibis kill (who was an irritating can flipper) was flagged as a solo kill and made me "the most dangerous of us all" on my corps killboard LOL. Amusing considering roams in 0.0 with my corp mates (group HAC and recon kills mind you) yielded less favorable results then a single, soloed, popped Ibis.
I am steadily at number 1 and no one can seem to remove me of my crown as "most dangerous" I think Eve needs a better point and rating system.
|
Navtiqes
Noob Mercs
|
Posted - 2009.01.12 08:02:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The honor in EVE is in losing well. Whine and cry and smack talk when defeated is childish.
End of discussion. Joe nailed.
|
|
Gwendalyne
Caldari Angelic Industries
|
Posted - 2009.01.13 08:24:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Gwendalyne on 13/01/2009 08:25:37 <<<================EDIT: CURSE YOU, EVIL EXCLAMATION MARK !!!
...Wow.
I usually don't ever see any thread I make reach longer than 1 or 2 pages... To be honest, I wouldn't have if someone had not Eve-mailed me about it.
The entire thread seems to be centered on "Honor is self-imposed", etc. While I agree, I would like to know this: Why, if it's only self-imposed, do people take advantage of it?
If honor is only about what you feel, then lack of it would be nothing more than someone who disagrees with your view. So why then, do people go about the disagreeing so flagrantly and obnoxiously (i.e. e-peen waggling) when it technically wouldn't illicit a response (being self-imposed, it wouldn't bring about any) ?
This goes to further my definition of 'griefing' to include: Those who provoke arguments, for their sole sake, and aside from anything else that happens, especially bad things to them. (As long as they get their victim to whine, they win)
This would seem to fit with your agreed-on definition of PvP, which is to gain ISK at the expense of someone else, right? So then, griefers are the ones who don't care about losing ISK, or even about their targets losing any, as long as they make other people hurt.
"Videogames don't make People into RL Killers, but the People who make Videogames Killing into RL." |
Kazami Kozura
|
Posted - 2009.01.13 09:11:00 -
[132]
There IS honour ingame
- let enemy pods leave the system after a good fight - no smack in local - go into a 20vs20 fight and not waiting for backup
Problem is, that only counts for 0.0 as soon as you are in lowsec or highsec, there is nothing called honour. Theres only smack and scam
|
Vampasha
|
Posted - 2009.01.13 12:27:00 -
[133]
What does war dec have to do with honour?
(I honour every fight I win)
Originally by: Gwendalyne However, in the two months I have been in my corp, I am now sitting in station twiddling my thumbs during our THIRD grief-week. Do you guys hate carebears that much?
|
blackmambasnake
|
Posted - 2009.01.13 12:44:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Lars Lodar Don't listen to the trolls.
I've been a professional pirate for quite some time now and I can tell you that my friends and I take honor very seriously. We never dishonor a ransom or planned fight such as a 1v1. Reputation is very important for most pirates as it's a good way to make isk.
Last night I challenged 2 Myrmidons to fight my drake. I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules. I probably could have escaped but I stuck to my word and let him take the kill. We talked for some time afterward and he even tried to recruit me.
Stuff like that happens all the time at least in small fights in low sec. Just gotta have a good attitude and treat your opponent with respect whether you win or loose.
u use guns on a drake? |
Vampasha
|
Posted - 2009.01.13 12:51:00 -
[135]
The mind boggles
Originally by: blackmambasnake
Originally by: Lars Lodar
u use guns on a drake?
|
Dickens Cider
|
Posted - 2009.01.13 18:21:00 -
[136]
When I necro'd this thread last weekend, I didn't mean for you all to keep posting.
I know, I did it on purpose, but now I just feel sorry for you all.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |