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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:09:00 - [1] Yes it is starting to ** me off, every day 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there extra downtime after 12:00 GMT. What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? * 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:11:00 - [2] Originally by: Gunner What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? Was there ever any? Not that I can recall seeing anyway. Secure 3rd party service ■ Veldspar

Zenomorphious	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:12:00 - [3] Want a tissue? Maybe a nappy to clear those eyes?
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Gunner What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? Just shut up fool. Go out do something useful. Originally by: CCP Mitnal You put a bear in your tea???
StrykerVenom Caldari DPT Entertainment	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:15:00 - [5] Its annoying, granted that (hey, my time to be online [weekdays] is 2 hours, one of which is downtime) However, its needed, so you have no right to complain.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:15:00 - [6] Originally by: Maria Kalista Just shut up fool. Go out do something useful. Mr T. is that you? Secure 3rd party service ■ Veldspar

Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:16:00 - [7] Very helpful and predictable responses, please refrain from it and stop accepting everything that is thrown on your path please. *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
Reckless Hope Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Gunner Very helpful and predictable responses, please refrain from it and stop accepting everything that is thrown on your path please. with your first crap post you finish it off with this. awesome, take your own advice
Zenomorphious	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Gunner Very helpful and predictable responses, please refrain from it and stop accepting everything that is thrown on your path please. No I think the original post was quite predictable. I knew some cry baby would post something along the lines of what you did. But funny anyway, but what else do people have to do other then wait for the server to come back up 20 late. Build a bridge and get over it. Dry your eyes or something, that might take 20 mins.
Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:23:00 - [10] Edited by: Gunner on 24/09/2008 12:24:41 Originally by: Zenomorphious Originally by: Gunner Very helpful and predictable responses, please refrain from it and stop accepting everything that is thrown on your path please. No I think the original post was quite predictable. I knew some cry baby would post something along the lines of what you did. But funny anyway, but what else do people have to do other then wait for the server to come back up 20 late. Build a bridge and get over it. Dry your eyes or something, that might take 20 mins. You should consider a profession in fortune telling, I'm sure you are very good at it. *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
Zenomorphious	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:24:00 - [11] Originally by: Gunner You should consider a profession in furtune telling, I'm sure you are very good at it. Yes. I am. No your not.
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:27:00 - [12] Dear OP, you're perfectly right. Jita needs to be nerfed, hard. 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001
Lag Hon Minmatar Lag Hon Security	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:27:00 - [13] For one I doubt they will ever eliminate DT as the server needs to be backed up. As for the extended DT its a choice of constant attention to issues and getting them fixed or keep the server running on time issues or not. DT also cuts right in the middle of my evening and the few hours I get to log in but then Eve is a game and I have a life to distract me from it occasionally. Quote: There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power governments, and tyrants, and armies can not stand. G'Kar
Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Lag Hon For one I doubt they will ever eliminate DT as the server needs to be backed up. As for the extended DT its a choice of constant attention to issues and getting them fixed or keep the server running on time issues or not. DT also cuts right in the middle of my evening and the few hours I get to log in but then Eve is a game and I have a life to distract me from it occasionally. Actually, there are databases that can be backed up or altered without taking them offline.... *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
BetterOffDead	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:31:00 - [15] Note to people who jump on anyone who complains about the length of DT - no-one asked for your witty comment that people should get over it or get a life. And should recognise that the fact that they are trolling a games forum makes their comments just drip with irony. Extended DT is a pain for people when it comes smack bang in normal game time. For people with families / jobs and live in the Australian east coast DT comes at 9PM. At 10PM I don't have long to get online before I got to hit the hay for another day in the smile factory so extended DT is a particular pain since you pay for a service. If you don't find extended DT a crimp on your day - fine, but for the people it disrupts get off their case. All troll posts reported.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:31:00 - [16] Suggest CCP start the cluster up on time every day whether it's ready or not, for illustrative purposes. - DesuSigs
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Gunner Originally by: Lag Hon For one I doubt they will ever eliminate DT as the server needs to be backed up. As for the extended DT its a choice of constant attention to issues and getting them fixed or keep the server running on time issues or not. DT also cuts right in the middle of my evening and the few hours I get to log in but then Eve is a game and I have a life to distract me from it occasionally. Actually, there are databases that can be backed up or altered without taking them offline.... can those database support over 50'000 read/write per second while backing up? and if so, how much more time will they take to do that? 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:37:00 - [18] Originally by: BetterOffDead Note to people who jump on anyone who complains about the length of DT - no-one asked for your witty comment that people should get over it or get a life. Actualy, the OP asked for exactly that by bringing it to an open forum where anyone and everyone is allowed to voice their opinion. Quote: All troll posts reported. Reported for wasting the moderators' time.
BetterOffDead	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:42:00 - [19] Originally by: TippiaActualy, the OP asked for exactly that by bringing it to an open forum where anyone and everyone is allowed to voice their opinion.[/quote Actually I cannot agree. People can legitimately argue database theory until the cows come home - personal attacks however are a clear breach of the forum guidelines.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:43:00 - [20] Reported for wasting the moderators' time. Reported for reporting. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:48:00 - [21] WOO OOH REPORT BATTLE!!!!! 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:52:00 - [22] For those that are interested the recent delays are due to us testing architectural changes on the life environment. We need a controllable environment as close to TQ actual as possible. So we use TQ just after startup. I'm sure it's annoying now but I'm also quite sure you'll forgive us once the collected data is used to improve your experience in the future. As a side note, because I like saying this time and again: DTs are not done for the sake of the DB. Any regular DB maintenance can be run with the DB online in this day and age. As to the promise of now DTs, I've heard about it as an internal discussion. I do hope there are no official promises about that as the downtime is now a part of many game mechanics. I'd love to see it happen I wouldn't ever promise it in an official capacity. It's a step in the direction towards a utopian EVE and nothing is truly impossible but it's not on the near-future horizon. P.S. If you need to report something it's your personal choice. There's no real point in telling people you reported them unless you're doing it out of spite. And the reporting system is not for that. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.


Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:00:00 - [23] NO! Keep the DT's. Addicts gotta eat sometime to survive! Secure 3rd party service ■ Veldspar

Gunner The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:00:00 - [24] Thank you for the info. *** 2007.10.06 R.I.P. Hatuk my friend.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:01:00 - [25] Originally by: CCP Prism X As to the promise of now DTs, I've heard about it as an internal discussion. I do hope there are no official promises about that as the downtime is now a part of many game mechanics. I believe it was a reference to a 'promise' from back when EVE was in Beta, when it was (so I hear) thought that daily DTs would not be needed once the game was running properly. - DesuSigs
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Imperial Servants	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:06:00 - [26] Edited by: Jaketh Ivanes on 24/09/2008 13:06:02 Originally by: Chribba NO! Keep the DT's. Addicts gotta eat sometime to survive! But drug barons are evil and prey on they addicts, so if the addicts die then the evil drug barons won't have anything to live on, and they die... I see a win-win situation here . Yes, i'm just joking
Deira Lenia The Chaotic Order Void.	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Gunner Yes it is starting to **** me off, every day 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there extra downtime after 12:00 GMT. What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? I was playing a other MMO recently because a friend told me to try it, (was someone from Eve-O forums). So i did. And in the middle when i was gonna kill this Kobold miner, the server died. So i sat there screaming and whining. And got told from that MMO's forum that the server's weekly down time of 10 hours was beeing extended with another 8. because they found issues during the orginal DT. To be honest, complaining about 10m every day is just unnessesary. Start complaining when CCP adds 2hr+ every day to make sure the servers can field the overmassive blob your alliance is capable of fielding. Tbh, more lag in F4R right now then there is in MSHD. -- Real men corpse tank Void Forums The Chaotic Order Forums
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:31:00 - [28] We need DT otherwise Chribb will run out of veld rocks and will start to eat one of Amarrs moons...
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Gunner Yes it is starting to ** me off, every day 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there extra downtime after 12:00 GMT. What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? what are u *ing about? would you like some sort of monetary reimbursement? The calculations have been done, you're losing PENNIES for every hour of DT...shut the hell up already, and get over it. _____________________ Originally by:** Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:52:00 - [30] Wee haf our pretty avatar peechures back on the forums, tho. EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
EVIL SYNNs Minmatar dearg doom	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:59:00 - [31] No Down Time! Don't even joke I have 1 hour a day to do my work!
Neermark JotunHeim Hird X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.24 14:20:00 - [32] Originally by: CCP Prism X For those that are interested the recent delays are due to us testing architectural changes on the live environment. We need a controllable environment as close to TQ actual as possible. So we use TQ just after startup. I'm sure it's annoying now but I'm also quite sure you'll forgive us once the collected data is used to improve your experience in the future. Is this the long awaited Infiniband alpha testing or is it part of the Walking In Station project ? Or something else ?
Hungo Minmatar Dusty Death Enterprise	Posted - 2008.09.24 14:24:00 - [33] Originally by: Gunner Yes it is starting to ** me off, every day 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there extra downtime after 12:00 GMT. What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? untill CCP can clear buffers, reload bug fixes etc without taking the servers down we will always have lag, downtimes extended, patch ** ups. Bottom line is ccp is no where near the league of companys such as Sony and Blizzard. Simply because they don't have what it takes, they do not care about the community, EVE itself has taken a back seat and tbh is a dieing game - they know this. so why would they bother? Ingame is the Same - 0.0 is being Over run by BOB n it's allies (GBC) more flock to its banner every day. Very soon all 0.0 will be held under bob and allies. Why fix the lag? No need, bob are managing fine. Small example but will give you the full answer if you think about it
Zezug Caldari Vice And Valour	Posted - 2008.09.24 14:29:00 - [34] Oh yes, Blizzard has a much better system. Not really. Rather than the server being down for about an hour a day, its down for 6-7 hours on one day during the week. And that gets extended quite often too. So I don't see how CCP is any worse with that. And Blizzard has had plenty of dumb things happen too.
Silam Ryder	Posted - 2008.09.24 14:31:00 - [35] Originally by: Hungo Originally by: Gunner Yes it is starting to ** me off, every day 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there extra downtime after 12:00 GMT. What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? untill CCP can clear buffers, reload bug fixes etc without taking the servers down we will always have lag, downtimes extended, patch ** ups. Bottom line is ccp is no where near the league of companys such as Sony and Blizzard. Simply because they don't have what it takes, they do not care about the community, EVE itself has taken a back seat and tbh is a dieing game - they know this. so why would they bother? Ingame is the Same - 0.0 is being Over run by BOB n it's allies (GBC) more flock to its banner every day. Very soon all 0.0 will be held under bob and allies. Why fix the lag? No need, bob are managing fine. Small example but will give you the full answer if you think about it I like you, youre intel provider is clearly amongst the best. Have you seen the influence map lately? BoB hasnt overrun 0.0, neither has its allies. So please stop talking crap about stuff you dont have a clue about. How did you even manage to bring BoB into a downtime discussion? children :/ so straight forward and simple minded...
Ethidium Bromide Amarr ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.24 16:21:00 - [36] Edited by: Ethidium Bromide on 24/09/2008 16:21:24 Originally by: CCP Prism X As a side note, because I like saying this time and again: DTs are not done for the sake of the DB. Any regular DB maintenance can be run with the DB online in this day and age. so why is it there i always thought that was the reason. as i know close to nothing about anything beyond my keayboard, mouse and monitor i am really interested in some expalnations that transform into half knowledge in my brains Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.24 16:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Hungo Originally by: Gunner Yes it is starting to ** me off, every day 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there extra downtime after 12:00 GMT. What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? untill CCP can clear buffers, reload bug fixes etc without taking the servers down we will always have lag, downtimes extended, patch ** ups. Bottom line is ccp is no where near the league of companys such as Sony and Blizzard. Simply because they don't have what it takes, they do not care about the community, EVE itself has taken a back seat and tbh is a dieing game - they know this. so why would they bother? Ingame is the Same - 0.0 is being Over run by BOB n it's allies (GBC) more flock to its banner every day. Very soon all 0.0 will be held under bob and allies. Why fix the lag? No need, bob are managing fine. Small example but will give you the full answer if you think about it Have you even looked at a Sovereignty map before? the really only have hold in the south west and are starting to gain traction in the north east.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.24 16:48:00 - [38] Bob is over running space? lol? Oh and Sony and Blizzard are much better :P
MailDeadDrop Archon Industries	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:06:00 - [39] Originally by: Chribba NO! Keep the DT's. Addicts gotta eat sometime to survive! If you can't eat while playing, you're doing it wrong. That said, we need to keep the DTs so that the addicts can tend to "personal hygiene". I am slightly surprised that CCP hasn't made the DT schedule more regionally "fair", by having the start times different on different days. But since there are now some game mechanics tangled up in the DTs (e.g. junk in space cleanup), having the DTs start at different times might be unworkable. MDD Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:12:00 - [40] Originally by: Ethidium Bromide so why is it there For the same reason I restart my work- and home-station every now and then when things are getting a little sluggish. I reckon that is the same reason any other MMO server goes down, be it daily, weekly, biweekly, monthly or however far they're willing to push the performance degradation. Although they probably are doing something else as they usually also take more (like we do with our downtime jobs which are a necessary part of current game logic). It's not as alien of a concept as many make it out to be. You wouldn't expect your windows machine to run perfectly ad infinitum. We need our servers as close to perfection as we can so we reboot them frequently. I'm quite certain that in a perfect world we could refactor most of the code so it could withstand constant uptime until the hardware fails but seeing as Microsoft is happy with me having to restart my box every now and then (ok to be fair it's not really MS, it's also all the other applications I run and how they interface with the OS.) I'm certain it's not very practical to attempt. Yes, I'm admitting that MS has larger R&D resources than us. But do not misconstrue me as saying that we're not trying. I'm currently delegated to a Task Force that is investigating CPU per Session increase since the Empyrean Age. We're always fighting lag on all fronts, trying to squeeze out more performance from every layer. Restarting the servers is one of our weapons and it's quite handy. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Ethidium Bromide Amarr ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:18:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Ethidium Bromide so why is it there answer ethi almost understands so there is no OS or whatever you need for servers that is able to 'take its trash out' if i understand that correctly it was about time someone invented one and gave me the money they make from it! Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:32:00 - [42] I'm really just using the OS as an example of a complex application that the average computer user can relate to. In hindsight I realize that I probably just made room for some heated debate as to what OS we should run on our sol servers. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Ethidium Bromide Amarr ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:33:00 - [43] Edited by: Ethidium Bromide on 24/09/2008 17:33:35 Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm really just using the OS as an example of a complex application that the average computer user can relate to. In hindsight I realize that I probably just made room for some heated debate as to what OS we should run on our sol servers. edit it away and i will pretend it never happened Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
Juliette Leblanc Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:36:00 - [44] Before installing (and using) EvE, the only times I had to reboot my Mac was after heavy system updates. And all my servers only reboot when I need to patch the kernel to fix some known exploitable bug in any of the services that I actually run on that specific server. I have one server that restarted only once in almost three years, and the reason is that it's hosted in my apartment, I was on a 3 weeks vacation, there was a problem with the building electrical wiring and they switched off each of the apartment mains forgetting to switch mine back on when the problem was fixed. My UPS did not have sufficient capacity to last until I came back home. Of course I do NOT use Windows on servers.
Henry Loenwind	Posted - 2008.09.24 17:37:00 - [45] Originally by: CCP Prism X For the same reason I restart my work- and home-station every now and then when things are getting a little sluggish. Now let's translate the Aussies' situation to your work day: 09:00 am: You start working 11:30 am: You start rebooting your workstation as per company policy 02:30 pm: Your workstation has finished rebooting, you continue working 05:00 pm: You go home, having to leave your workstation running as per company policy Now, what would you say if you'd have to work this way? And now imagine, some day the reboots start to take an hour longer or so... For someone who has the 1 hour downtime in the middle of his 3 hour evening, it hurts to lose 20 minutes extra. However, according to the forum, those people should start to get a life by quitting their jobs, so they can play when there is no downtime. Sounds reasonable---for a four-year old child. Originally by: Decard Sune on 23/03/2008 12:12:37 Carebear is a derogatory term used by those who feel that every player should be nothing mroe than a target for their pleasure. These individuals usually ha
BetterOffDead	Posted - 2008.09.24 22:41:00 - [46] Originally by: CCP Prism X It's not as alien of a concept as many make it out to be. You wouldn't expect your windows machine to run perfectly ad infinitum. We need our servers as close to perfection as we can so we reboot them frequently. I'm quite certain that in a perfect world we could refactor most of the code so it could withstand constant uptime until the hardware fails but seeing as Microsoft is happy with me having to restart my box every now and then (ok to be fair it's not really MS, it's also all the other applications I run and how they interface with the OS.) I'm certain it's not very practical to attempt. Yes, I'm admitting that MS has larger R&D resources than us. With respect I think you should be shooting for a better target state then saying because MS make crap products yours can be of a state where you to have to bounce servers daily and that's the only effective weapon in the kit to keep gameplay stable. Maybe it's in a different time zone but I'm yet to hit the daily Google DT.
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.09.24 23:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Chribba NO! Keep the DT's. Addicts gotta eat sometime to survive! I thought you ate veldspar.
Elden VanVoiden Caldari Universal Moose Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.29 20:31:00 - [48] TBH I get the downtime thing, I really, I have no problem with it! BUT! Why does it have to be while I am on my lunch break at work, this being pretty much the only time I have in which to play? Seriously what wrong with 10AM GMT or something...? Come on PrismX WHY lunch time? why oh for the love of god, WHY? ;-)
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.29 22:57:00 - [49] The solution to an ever running system these days is of course a very redundant system... The problem with this is however, that it can be quite expensive... Lets say we have one database server right now, on it's own very redundant with data... but the system will go down for a reboot... If you want to make the system redundant while keeping it online and running I think you need at least 3 servers... Of which two are running continually, third can be in a reboot cycle... I don't think I need to mention how this would triple costs related to the server... anyway, I can live with the downtime. And as mentioned, in the end it is not the database that needs the reboot, but the OS running it...
Elden VanVoiden Caldari Universal Moose Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.30 09:23:00 - [50] As I said I can live with the downtime too, just not with the time when it occurs! Come on CCP show you care.... WHY is it at lunch? There are so many casual gamers out there who simply wont play EVE because you turn the servers OFF when they are able to play!
Sleepkevert Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.30 09:44:00 - [51] Originally by: Henry Loenwind Now let's translate the Aussies' situation to your work day: 09:00 am: You start working 11:30 am: You start rebooting your workstation as per company policy 02:30 pm: Your workstation has finished rebooting, you continue working 05:00 pm: You go home, having to leave your workstation running as per company policy Now, what would you say if you'd have to work this way? Oh yes, separate reboots per timezone every night... Wait.. what? The reboot happens at a time that is comfortable for CCP. They still need to do some maintenance to it every day, or test stuff during downtime. It just happens to be you are in a bad spot... _ Add your own line!
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Gunner Yes it is starting to **** me off, every day 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there extra downtime after 12:00 GMT. What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? I'm too lazy to read replies, just gonna state the obvious; One or two days ago servers went up after 35-40min downtime, I'd say the 20-25min time we "won" that time balances out what we lost another day. Not to mention I rather have ~1h every day than losing half a day a week, my addiction would never cope, the stress it'd put me through. :( Plus, a man has to shower sometimes.
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:11:00 - [53] All nonsense. Its the time needed to clean the hamster cages. And then its an extra 10-20 min workout session so they run faster. tl;dr Hamsters having fitness
Naran Darkmood Gallente MC Cubed 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:17:00 - [54] Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Gunner What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? Was there ever any? Not that I can recall seeing anyway. When the world was young and EVE in beta, there were Devs who promised to move to a weekly downtime after the first issues after launch had settled...
Graic	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:39:00 - [55] Originally by: Sleepkevert The reboot happens at a time that is comfortable for CCP. Depends on what you mean by comfort - I think you mean fortunate. I'd be prepared to bet a substantial sum that if the current DT time fell anywhere near prime time US gaming time CCP would be doing this thing at any other time. And you have to take into account the impact here. There's not a whole lot you can substantially do in the hour or so before DT. I can't imagine a quick dash as "World's Collide" would be something you would always want to tackle 45 minutes before DT. It can be frustrating week after week and so much more when DT overruns. So CCP would never risk that market. Which makes this an obvious play of profit over anything else - which is fair enough by some measures. Far flung places, they are only ever going to complain about DT, latency - so why bother. However, by other measures it defies a bit of logic. A quick look at the world map: http://www.tiglion.com/travel/region/timezone.htm If DT were a couple of hours earlier closer to the international dateline the impact on geography (and to a greater extent population density) would be far, far less. Yeah agreed it changes the CCP work day slightly - but I don't exactly feel that it's not aligned to their company statement: http://www.ccpgames.com/company/default.asp Quote: CCP is founded on the principle of pushing the envelope and breaking new grounds on all levels. I'm not asking for the envelope to be pushed here - just some consideration/discussion for moving DT to a more logical place. As has already been stated here DB backups don't require a DT - anyone with a passing knowledge of database technologies can tell you that - and placing the main pain point on dodgy operating systems seems a heck of a cop out to be frank. I can appreciate that the Architecture is complex - there are an amazing amount of balls in the air - missions, markets, systems etc. However, a system I usually visit doesn't load for a few minutes after EVE is up (I can log in with other characters based in other systems) and your regional market does not always load straight away - so there is obviously some concept of multi-streaming in the EVE DT/startup process. It wouldn't take much of a stretch to visualise a "rolling" or "phased" DT - but these fundamental changes don't seem to be on the radar in any significant way despite a creaking architecture. For instance, tonight we're having an update to implement restrictions on the number of people in systems. I'm not seeing us moving closer to epic fleet battles - instead the further hobbling game mechanics to prop up another issue with the EVE architecture. I'm not trying to totally tear down CCP here - I love the concept of EVE, when I've had the time to invest it's been a great experience - but I'm not seeing uptime/performance to match the hype. Cheers.
Tuttomenui II Gallente kungfuhammers	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:50:00 - [56] Originally by: Chribba NO! Keep the DT's. Addicts gotta eat sometime to survive! Yeah we wouldnt be able to live without DT, and if DT was aliminated and we lost Chribba to hunger and starvation, It would be a sad EVE. So Please Gaurantee Chribbas continued existance by keeping DT in place and 1 hour long.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: CCP Prism X As to the promise of now DTs, I've heard about it as an internal discussion. I do hope there are no official promises about that as the downtime is now a part of many game mechanics. I believe it was a reference to a 'promise' from back when EVE was in Beta, when it was (so I hear) thought that daily DTs would not be needed once the game was running properly. Think I could eve-search this or find it somehow? Sounds like an epic quote to find. Is it findable or on some beta forum or something that has been long erased? -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Dmian Gallente Starline Engineering Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:00:00 - [58] I have nothing against DTs. Whatever it takes to keep the game running smoothly is ok and appreciated. But the main difference between me restarting my PC and you restarting Eve serverS is that you have many of them. Can't they be restarted in cascade I mean, restart one, with a transient load asigned to another node, so you can keep the game running? (albeit, with minor lag or inconvenieces.) Just a question that popped in my head, no mean to bother or criticize you in any form. ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Brunnis Jetrel Gallente Shining Horses Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:14:00 - [59] cant CCP just ban anyone from an IP originating in the southern hemisphere, that way you wouldn't have them whining !
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Dmian I have nothing against DTs. Whatever it takes to keep the game running smoothly is ok and appreciated. But the main difference between me restarting my PC and you restarting Eve serverS is that you have many of them. Can't they be restarted in cascade I mean, restart one, with a transient load asigned to another node, so you can keep the game running? (albeit, with minor lag or inconvenieces.) Just a question that popped in my head, no mean to bother or criticize you in any form. Freezing a node and transfering the gamestate to another one will most probably take too long with the current network deployed on TQ.
Susie Krikkit	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:51:00 - [61] It's called the Eve Cluster. Why can't you restart nodes one by one?
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.30 12:41:00 - [62] Edited by: sg3s on 30/09/2008 12:43:33 Originally by: Dmian I have nothing against DTs. Whatever it takes to keep the game running smoothly is ok and appreciated. But the main difference between me restarting my PC and you restarting Eve serverS is that you have many of them. Can't they be restarted in cascade I mean, restart one, with a transient load asigned to another node, so you can keep the game running? (albeit, with minor lag or inconvenieces.) Just a question that popped in my head, no mean to bother or criticize you in any form. As said it is not possible to move a whole node onto an other server within a feasible amount of time. Meaning the time it takes should not delay players from doing anything that could give them a big disadvantage nor advantage... which is hard because you need to freeze everything in the system while it is being transfered or 'installed' on an other server... not to mention the incredible network load it would create... Edit: Originally by: Susie Krikkit It's called the Eve Cluster. Why can't you restart nodes one by one? Because all the nodes are considered to be constantly used.. especially the busy ones, you cannot just take out Jita for a reboot while the rest goes on working. It has already been explained that a single node can harbor multiple systems so even when a system is empty you should not asume the node it is on is empty as well.
Robdon	Posted - 2008.09.30 12:50:00 - [63] Hmm, if you are having to reboot every day to fix performance, be it windows or whatever server, then there is something seriosuly wrong with your setup & or software design. I reboot my home XP machine about once a week, at the most, normaly cause I'm forced to be MS (grrr), and I'm doing lots on my PC, including heavy development and running a DB on it. At work, I work for a major telecoms company, with huge databases and transaction through puts with millions and millions of calls processed, and our Unix servers get rebooted about once a year, when we do hardware updates.
Sleepkevert Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.30 12:53:00 - [64] Originally by: Graic I'm not asking for the envelope to be pushed here - just some consideration/discussion for moving DT to a more logical place. Like what? Any time you will move it to you will hit prime time of some timezone. Though it might be nice to move it a bit more to China prime time, it won't solve your problem since it will only be moved an hour or so from where you live. And yes, offcourse they don't put downtime on the time when the most users are on. It would make it just as annoying as it is for you now but for about four times the amount of users if not more. I'm not saying it's perfect, but considering the rest of the world, and CCP's daylight times, I think they have chosen a reasonable time.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.30 13:07:00 - [65] Originally by: Robdon Hmm, if you are having to reboot every day to fix performance, be it windows or whatever server, then there is something seriosuly wrong with your setup & or software design. I reboot my home XP machine about once a week, at the most, normaly cause I'm forced to be MS (grrr), and I'm doing lots on my PC, including heavy development and running a DB on it. At work, I work for a major telecoms company, with huge databases and transaction through puts with millions and millions of calls processed, and our Unix servers get rebooted about once a year, when we do hardware updates. Your home computer is not a high performance server which uses over say 60% of it's resources 99% of the time. The nodes need to be reliable and fast... I'm betting that one of the reasons for the reboot is normal memory fragmentation, this happens on ANY system and because of it it gets slower, just that you wouldn't notice it on a home desktop because those rarely use over 80% of it's power... unless ofcourse when gaming a lot and a lot of different games, I guarantee you that you will notice the performance loss in that case. Yes there are programs that can manage fragmentation but currently they are not advanced enough to justify the extra load that it will bring. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Tramp Oline	Posted - 2008.09.30 13:11:00 - [66] Funny how I never see you complain about the other 70% of the days when the server comes up well before the hour is over. Apply all that extra time that you saved when the server came up early to the days when it comes up late.
midge Mo'yb Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.30 13:12:00 - [67] Originally by: sg3s Originally by: Robdon Hmm, if you are having to reboot every day to fix performance, be it windows or whatever server, then there is something seriosuly wrong with your setup & or software design. I reboot my home XP machine about once a week, at the most, normaly cause I'm forced to be MS (grrr), and I'm doing lots on my PC, including heavy development and running a DB on it. At work, I work for a major telecoms company, with huge databases and transaction through puts with millions and millions of calls processed, and our Unix servers get rebooted about once a year, when we do hardware updates. didnt they state once that it is a limitation with python which memory leaks overtime so they restart to clear that? and reseed belts and whatnot while it is down Your home computer is not a high performance server which uses over say 60% of it's resources 99% of the time. The nodes need to be reliable and fast... I'm betting that one of the reasons for the reboot is normal memory fragmentation, this happens on ANY system and because of it it gets slower, just that you wouldn't notice it on a home desktop because those rarely use over 80% of it's power... unless ofcourse when gaming a lot and a lot of different games, I guarantee you that you will notice the performance loss in that case. Yes there are programs that can manage fragmentation but currently they are not advanced enough to justify the extra load that it will bring. -----------------------------------------------
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.09.30 13:31:00 - [68] Originally by: Juliette Leblanc I have one server that restarted only once in almost three years,.. Of course I do NOT use Windows on servers. I had a windows server that ran for 4 years, when they turned the power off it just borrowed some from next door and pretended it owned it all along. No seriously, I've had windows servers run for that long, the thing is they weren't DOING anything special. Running as a proxy, downloading things, running databases, any MS software isn't a problem and they can do it infinitely if their hardware doesn't fail. It's when you put software on it that is complex that ALL machines eventually run slower (and no, they probably don't 'need' to be rebooted but in a situation like CCP have any tiny bit is magnified, so it helps to keep things clean. Even if rebooting only brings them from 99.999998% efficiency to 99.999999% it helps. Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: CCP Prism X As to the promise of now DTs, I've heard about it as an internal discussion. I do hope there are no official promises about that as the downtime is now a part of many game mechanics. I believe it was a reference to a 'promise' from back when EVE was in Beta, when it was (so I hear) thought that daily DTs would not be needed once the game was running properly. If you've been playing since beta, CCP has already tried everything to get you to stop, so what's one more thing :p Like they're going to scare you away. (and yes I was in the final beta). Quote: With respect I think you should be shooting for a better target state then saying because MS make crap products yours can be of a state where you to have to bounce servers daily and that's the only effective weapon in the kit to keep gameplay stable. Maybe it's in a different time zone but I'm yet to hit the daily Google DT. MS have nothing to do with CCP's requirement for a daily downtime, you can keep a database or website running with MS software with no downtime either. It's the code (asteroid reseeding, outpost construction, testing of patches etc). The thing about google is, that no one complains when they get a slightly different search result list to the last person that searched for that term. In eve that can't happen, you're not supposed to kill someone on your screen and have them kill you on theirs, it's the one universe. Google is infinitely simpler to present a front end for in comparison. They can essentially just show you yesterdays repeats while making today's show, Eve is live. Quote: It's called the Eve Cluster. Why can't you restart nodes one by one? Actually they do. But there's only so much they can do with a world so tightly woven. Systems don't start up until people enter them etc, but certain parts have to be started up in the right order, what good is being able to login if the market doesn't work and you can't undock etc. Quote: At work, I work for a major telecoms company, with huge databases and transaction through puts with millions and millions of calls processed, and our Unix servers get rebooted about once a year, when we do hardware updates. Again, transactions are easy, plenty of large companies run MS SQL or Oracle or whatever databases and never have to reboot, some never have to reboot even if hardware fails. Transactions are easy to do, this software is generic and has been designed to perform this task very well. Eve is more complex and unique. Quote: Funny how I never see you complain about the other 70% of the days when the server comes up well before the hour is over. While I'm not complaining (and yes, DT is in the middle of my prime time). It used to be much more typical that DT would be only 30mins. (a year or so ago). Now at most it's 10 minutes early, and just as often at least 10 minutes late. It certainly isn't up earlier enough these days to balance out the extra long days.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.09.30 13:34:00 - [69] Originally by: midge Mo'yb didnt they state once that it is a limitation with python which memory leaks overtime so they restart to clear that? and reseed belts and whatnot while it is down That's basically it, reasons for downtime: - Game technical things (reseeding, outposts etc) - Game code. - Testing of patches / content (no other cluster this complex to test it on, also has to be working for sure before deployment. I've never seen an Eve rollback, but plenty of other systems have had them. - Python and stuff (though I think it's gotten a lot better since release)
Zenomorphious	Posted - 2008.09.30 13:41:00 - [70] Originally by: Gunner Yes it is starting to **** me off, every day 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there extra downtime after 12:00 GMT. What ever happened to the promise we would not need any DT at all?????? HAHA I know how to fix your whinging woes..! Build a really shiit hot expensive ship and fly it into somewhere like rancer...get ganked...initiate self destruct and fly away laughing..then they can laugh at you for being a dill like you make you are...
Dmian Gallente Starline Engineering Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.30 15:30:00 - [71] Edited by: Dmian on 30/09/2008 15:33:38 Thanks Mioelnir and sg3s! I don't have any knowledge about system magement, but I have a slight idea about how load balancing works. What a pitty. Somehow I though that it could have worked like this: Have a special server (node) with more RAM than the rest and a large SSD. Give a warning to players on a node. Freeze and transfer the regular node. Restart the regular node. Warn players on backup node. Freeze and transfer data from backup node to regular node. Keep playing... I even thought that you could roleplay it by saying that a solar wind or magnetic cloud was approaching the system and all pilots should leave that system(s) or dock immediatly (in order to freeze and transfer the node). When you transfer the node again to the regular node cast a notice saying that the "danger" has ended. As I said, a pitty. But since DT has practically no effect on my gameplay, I just really don't care. I'm sorry for the players whose time zone coincide with the DT. Edit: Thinking about it... what happens if a node fails? I mean, say that one node, for whatever reason fails, does it take the whole system down, or does it affect just the node in question? Can CCP have "spare" nodes just in case? ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Elden VanVoiden Caldari Universal Moose Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.30 16:42:00 - [72] All I want is someone from CCP to explain to me why they turn off the service I am paying for precisely when I want to use it.... Why can it not be done earlier in the day, 10AM GMT is neither US nor europe prime time..... Come on how hard can it be either, there is a very good reason, in which case they will tell us. Or there is not, in which case they will not tell us and by such an omission admit that we their customers do not matter to them... Come on CCP.... please
Elden VanVoiden Caldari Universal Moose Foundation	Posted - 2008.10.01 12:00:00 - [73] Come on CCP, would love an answer.....
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.01 12:00:00 - [74] Originally by: Elden VanVoiden All I want is someone from CCP to explain to me why they turn off the service I am paying for precisely when I want to use it.... Why can it not be done earlier in the day, 10AM GMT is neither US nor europe prime time..... Come on how hard can it be either, there is a very good reason, in which case they will tell us. Or there is not, in which case they will not tell us and by such an omission admit that we their customers do not matter to them... Come on CCP.... please Because CCP, like the rest of the world, like teasing the aussies.
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2008.10.01 12:29:00 - [75] Edited by: Maria Kalista on 01/10/2008 12:30:11 Originally by: Elden VanVoiden All I want is someone from CCP to explain to me why they turn off the service I am paying for precisely when I want to use it.... This has been said before, but you DO realize that if CCP would (they won't but for arguments sake) change the downtime schedule, someone else would start complaining that the downtime is in the middle of their only hour they can play EVE and why not does CCP change the downtime so he is not bugged by the DT? And DT is at Icelandic 11 GMT, neat choice, just before CCP can go en-mass to lunch. Originally by: CCP Mitnal You put a bear in your tea???
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.10.01 13:03:00 - [76] Originally by: Elden VanVoiden All I want is someone from CCP to explain to me why they turn off the service I am paying for precisely when I want to use it.... The account which you pay for on the server is still on the server. - DesuSigs
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.01 13:19:00 - [77] Originally by: Tramp Oline Funny how I never see you complain about the other 70% of the days when the server comes up well before the hour is over. Apply all that extra time that you saved when the server came up early to the days when it comes up late. This tbh.
Jobby Minmatar UNITED STAR SYNDICATE R-I-P	Posted - 2008.10.01 14:39:00 - [78] omfg
Kirra Liu Perkone	Posted - 2008.10.01 17:36:00 - [79] Originally by: BetterOffDead Note to people who jump on anyone who complains about the length of DT - no-one asked for your witty comment that people should get over it or get a life. And should recognise that the fact that they are trolling a games forum makes their comments just drip with irony. Extended DT is a pain for people when it comes smack bang in normal game time. For people with families / jobs and live in the Australian east coast DT comes at 9PM. At 10PM I don't have long to get online before I got to hit the hay for another day in the smile factory so extended DT is a particular pain since you pay for a service. If you don't find extended DT a crimp on your day - fine, but for the people it disrupts get off their case. All troll posts reported. After much thought and deliberation, STFU! Yeah Eve has downtime during Australian prime-time, and sure thats going to be a complete pain in the ass for all those effected. But there has allways been downtime and at the same time each day, so if you don't like it, make a stand and go give some other game's company your money, and gimme your stuff. Extended DT is even worse as youre just sat waitin and waitin for the server o come back online, but if you want this game to keep improving then it's a small sacrifice to pay. As for the dude who said about databases that backup while online, go and make one of these databases yourself and be sure that it let's 30k + players online while it does it, then sell it and profit, until then be realistic.
Elden VanVoiden Caldari Universal Moose Foundation	Posted - 2008.10.02 07:29:00 - [80] OK firstly I am not in australia. Secondly I believe the data centre is in London, although I could be wrong..... Thirdly I accept the need for DT, I accept that sometimes it goes over sometimes under I DONT accept that turning the server off during what is lunch time for europe is anything but a stupid idea and a barrier for this game to grow more. recently I showed a work colleague the game, they said cool I'll play it during lunch........ oh well ccp there is some revenue lost right there!
robbyx	Posted - 2008.10.02 07:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Elden VanVoiden OK firstly I am not in australia. Secondly I believe the data centre is in London, although I could be wrong..... Thirdly I accept the need for DT, I accept that sometimes it goes over sometimes under I DONT accept that turning the server off during what is lunch time for europe is anything but a stupid idea and a barrier for this game to grow more. recently I showed a work colleague the game, they said cool I'll play it during lunch........ oh well ccp there is some revenue lost right there! Listen up you selfish moron..we in the pacific have it worse than anybody, DT is right in the middle/end of our prime time...wah wah wah you cant play EVE for one hour during the day, bringing DT forward one hour would pretty much kill EVE for everyone in our part of the world....so why dont you pull your selfish, self obsessed head out of your ass and learn to live with it like everyone else.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.02 08:27:00 - [82] Well... I think it is clear that DT is a needed evil, for now at least. You cannot change a lot to it as it will certainly put the DT in the prime times of other people... However I did read some good arguments in this thread why it should be moved to one hour earlier. As said, 11AM seems to be in the middle of Australian prime time being in the early evening. I am not sure moving it to an hour earlier will solve a lot. For some people this might be exactly when they get off their daily chores and have some free time, but for others that same time might be when they need to go to bed because they happen to have a job where you need to get up at 4am. The other argument is that DT is in the European lunch break time... Now seriously, what can you do in say, and hour, that is if you have an hour to spend on your lunch break, and isn't it normal to have LUNCH on your lunch break? I am a student so I have a lot of free time, and on mondays/tuesdays I'm free from classes at 11:45, 13:00, the start of the DT for me atm, is right at the time where I have gotten home and had some lunch. So I do realise how irritating it can be. Even though it's not nearly as irritating for me as it is for the Australians. In the end it is just a minority of people that are affected by the DT and there are even less actually complaining about it. The reasons for the DT are stated and explained in this thread. The simple reason for why not to move it is because it is convenient for the most of eve and CCP has probably gotten used to it by now. Lets hope CCP can cut down on the DT with the new developments they are making daily, and maybe eliminate it somewhere in the future. For now, just live with it. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Tiger313 313th Squadron	Posted - 2008.10.02 09:39:00 - [83] Originally by: Chribba NO! Keep the DT's. Addicts gotta eat sometime to survive! I wholeheartedly agree with above quote!
Ingatius Grulgor	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:23:00 - [84] Originally by: Demitria Fernir can those database support over 50'000 read/write per second while backing up? and if so, how much more time will they take to do that? Uhm, yes they can easily because it doesn't work the way you imagine it, and no it wouldn't take more time. :)
Graic	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:53:00 - [85] Originally by: Kirra Liu As for the dude who said about databases that backup while online, go and make one of these databases yourself and be sure that it let's 30k + players online while it does it, then sell it and profit, until then be realistic. Actually, that dude was a CCP dev. Originally by: sg3s Well... I think it is clear that DT is a needed evil, for now at least. You cannot change a lot to it as it will certainly put the DT in the prime times of other people... However I did read some good arguments in this thread why it should be moved to one hour earlier. As said, 11AM seems to be in the middle of Australian prime time being in the early evening. I am not sure moving it to an hour earlier will solve a lot. For some people this might be exactly when they get off their daily chores and have some free time, but for others that same time might be when they need to go to bed because they happen to have a job where you need to get up at 4am. The other argument is that DT is in the European lunch break time... Now seriously, what can you do in say, and hour, that is if you have an hour to spend on your lunch break, and isn't it normal to have LUNCH on your lunch break? I am a student so I have a lot of free time, and on mondays/tuesdays I'm free from classes at 11:45, 13:00, the start of the DT for me atm, is right at the time where I have gotten home and had some lunch. So I do realise how irritating it can be. Even though it's not nearly as irritating for me as it is for the Australians. In the end it is just a minority of people that are affected by the DT and there are even less actually complaining about it. The reasons for the DT are stated and explained in this thread. The simple reason for why not to move it is because it is convenient for the most of eve and CCP has probably gotten used to it by now. Lets hope CCP can cut down on the DT with the new developments they are making daily, and maybe eliminate it somewhere in the future. For now, just live with it. Thanks for a response that supports the status quo that also manages not to be abusive. I still argue that moving DT a couple of hours back closer to the international date line would impact less people. And it's a pointless argument tonight as again there's an extended DT. Scratch two nights this week for any gaming. Heck of a DT to do this: http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=173
Luminous Venomous	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:14:00 - [86] No any other mmo has so much downtime then EvE. I'm paying for a month including -1 hour dt everyday....I'm not paying for almost every day extended downtime and several patches in 1 week. CCP give us back some gametime. For example; add 1 day... Stories about 'we're improving the game' or 'technical maintenance' is not a safeguarding to gain so much gametime from the players. Like in any other games...i want value for my money. And gametime is included in that value...
Zana McLizzy	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:40:00 - [87] They need all the extra ficking DT's to fix their incompetent work of the other path rounds... I wonder how many hours will be added to todays extended dt.. and what do they do: make 2 insignificant changes.. And they need 5 hours dt for that.. yeah right... Compensate me for the frickin time lost on my 4 accounts, soon to be melted in 1.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.02 11:46:00 - [88] Originally by: Luminous Venomous No any other mmo has so much downtime then EvE. I'm paying for a month including -1 hour dt everyday....I'm not paying for almost every day extended downtime and several patches in 1 week. CCP give us back some gametime. For example; add 1 day... Stories about 'we're improving the game' or 'technical maintenance' is not a safeguarding to gain so much gametime from the players. Like in any other games...i want value for my money. And gametime is included in that value... Like other MMO's ? So every 6 months they will just charge for expansions on top of the subscription? Like other MMOs ? That's the difference, CCP has never in the last 4 years at least given any reimbursed gametime, or done a rollback. Or charged for an expansion. If you want it to be 'like other MMO's' then frankly, go play them instead. Quote: As said, 11AM seems to be in the middle of Australian prime time being in the early evening. I am not sure moving it to an hour earlier will solve a lot. For some people this might be exactly when they get off their daily chores and have some free time, but for others that same time might be when they need to go to bed because they happen to have a job where you need to get up at 4am. 1 hour earlier would be worse for most of Australia. I think we have to accept it is when it is, it has been for a very long time now, so we all started playing the game with it at that time, we learn to deal with it or have stopped playing. What really DOES bite, is getting home after work to find the server is down for 4 hours instead of 1 hour, and the extended downtime was announced only 11 hours earlier[b/], while you were at work. Not exactly a lot you can do to plan for that if CCP don't plan all that far ahead. It would be good for CCP to have said last weekend, look, most days next week will be extended downtimes, deal with it. It's not the extended downtimes that shit me, hell I have plenty to do outside the game, it's the lack of real warning which doesn't allow us to plan ahead. I know it mustn't be fun for CCP's staff either, but then neither are most of our [b]jobs.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.10.02 12:46:00 - [89] It's really annoying when we have extended DT for completely minor and nearly pointless patches again and again... But I am glad at least that the database doesn't crash during weekend primetime every week like it used to. That was even more annoying. Restarts and restarts upon more restarts and downtime, downtime and more downtime upon even more downtime. That seems to be behind us.
Nerrollus Nyx Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:05:00 - [90] So I take it this much downtime isn't normal? I just resubbed three days ago. So far 2 of those days I haven't been able to play because their down time is during my normal play time ... No I'm not an aussie, I just work nights.
Luminous Venomous	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:11:00 - [91] Originally by: Lord Fitz Like other MMO's ? So every 6 months they will just charge for expansions on top of the subscription? Like other MMOs ? That's the difference, CCP has never in the last 4 years at least given any reimbursed gametime, or done a rollback. Or charged for an expansion. If you want it to be 'like other MMO's' then frankly, go play them instead. Something says to me a CCP-puppet is talking. They already removed 1 month gamecards to get more money imo. If i want to criticize i will do it here and you have to deal with that. And i have a good reason imo. I also play other mmo's during the year. So i have a fine comparison. If an mmo-compagny is reducing the time i already payed for then they should compensate that. I payed for 30 days and -1 hour dt every day. Not for 29 days and -1 hour dt every day. For example: if I buy a prepayed card for my mobilephone then I get the time on that card and nothing goes off because there's an maintance on the network. Then its ALWAYS so that CCP's dt's are in Europe's maintime. Would be fair to switch once and a while to Asian and North-American timetables. And about upgrading the game with expansions is an other matter. They could let us choose to have an expansion or not. In other mmo's people have the choise to buy add's...and if they don't buy they're still be able to play the game. So this is no reason to reducing our playtime.
sasf	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:19:00 - [92] I am Australian and i have every right to *****, moan, complain, and whinge about these DT's. Over a 48 hr period i would have played a total of 2 hours because my prime time is now. So to all the people that share the same views as KIRRA LIU, STFU until you walk in my shoes.
Taarna Locnar	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:20:00 - [93] could give a less about the DT discussion, but think they should offer more than a day notice for a extended DT.
Mickey Simon Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:20:00 - [94] Eh, I understand it's a neccessary evil. When you're running between 20k to 40k players on the one game world at any time it's understandable that you'll have memory fragmentation and system slowdown. Yes, WoW downtime is less frequent. WoW's also a steaming pile of shit and uses nowhere near the amount of resources EVE does. If it matters that much, go back to WoW. I for one certainly wont miss you. Having said that, it's still annoying given that it's during the time most of the people I would usually fly with are available but if it was moved anywhere else you'd have a heap of other people chucking a ******sad and most likely they'd complain a hell of a lot more.
Nerrollus Nyx Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:21:00 - [95] Originally by: sasf I am Australian and i have every right to *****, moan, complain, and whinge about these DT's. Over a 48 hr period i would have played a total of 2 hours because my prime time is now. So to all the people that share the same views as KIRRA LIU, STFU until you walk in my shoes. I'm with you ..... I reactivated my account three days ago and have only been able to play once because of all the extended DT.
Mickey Simon Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:27:00 - [96] What would you have them do though Nerrollus? Shift it to something else to appease the perhaps 20k players from AU? That would leave you angering someone else. As much as I hate to admit it, we're the best choice for downtime because we've likely to got a much lower EVE playing population than than North/South America and Europe. Can you imagine how many yanks would be on the forums whinging if DT was shifted to their main play time? Their tears would be enough to raise the sea level -_-
Nerrollus Nyx Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:33:00 - [97] Originally by: Mickey Simon What would you have them do though Nerrollus? Shift it to something else to appease the perhaps 20k players from AU? That would leave you angering someone else. As much as I hate to admit it, we're the best choice for downtime because we've likely to got a much lower EVE playing population than than North/South America and Europe. Can you imagine how many yanks would be on the forums whinging if DT was shifted to their main play time? Their tears would be enough to raise the sea level -_- No, I understand their need for maint and the time window. That's just something I've had to accept being on this schedule. My prime time is when EVERY MMO does maint. My complaint is that they're doing extended maint all the freaking time. Twice in the past three days? Ugh...
sasf	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:33:00 - [98] You have a very valid point Mickey, a hard one to argue with. BUT, the most important thing to remember is MY happiness, and watching americans cry would make me happy.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:36:00 - [99] Has it ever occured to anyone on these forums, that the timing has nothing to due with ****ing the least people off, but is timed so the guys maintaining the cluster can come to work, prepare and execute DT, and are still around to fix issues during normal business hours? And yes, 24 hours warning for an extended DT is a bit short, but I'd rather have 12 hours announcements then to live with the gate problems 1.1.1 introduced for a week just for announcement times' sake. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Nerrollus Nyx Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:38:00 - [100] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Has it ever occured to anyone on these forums, that the timing has nothing to due with ****ing the least people off, but is timed so the guys maintaining the cluster can come to work, prepare and execute DT, and are still around to fix issues during normal business hours? And yes, 24 hours warning for an extended DT is a bit short, but I'd rather have 12 hours announcements then to live with the gate problems 1.1.1 introduced for a week just for announcement times' sake. Makes great business sence. Screw the customer, we're doing things on our time. Makes perfect sense to me to put out 20k customers instead of making a hand full of employees come in a little early one day.
sasf	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:39:00 - [101] What, this DT's 4hrs? Isn't a working day 9hrs? Its too hard for them to do overtime? You get my point? plenty of other oportunities for these DT's im sure
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:39:00 - [102] Originally by: Luminous Venomous If an mmo-compagny is reducing the time i already payed for then they should compensate that. I payed for 30 days and -1 hour dt every day. Not for 29 days and -1 hour dt every day. For example: if I buy a prepayed card for my mobilephone then I get the time on that card and nothing goes off because there's an maintance on the network. All subscription fees are in U.S. Dollars or Euros and are non-refundable unless expressly stated otherwise in the EULA. When you establish your Account, you authorize CCP to automatically charge your credit card the subscription fees in accordance with the payment terms (as may be amended by CCP from time to time), plus any applicable taxes that CCP is required to collect. If CCP is unable to process your credit card at any time, your Account may be immediately suspended or terminated at CCP's discretion. You are responsible for reviewing CCP's website for changes in the subscription fee or payment terms. If a change is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in the termination section below. You are responsible for paying all applicable taxes (including those CCP is not required to collect) and for all hardware, software, Internet service and other costs you incur to access the System. Originally by: Luminous Venomous Then its ALWAYS so that CCP's dt's are in Europe's maintime. Would be fair to switch once and a while to Asian and North-American timetables. Not their problem, they do server maintenance whenever they want. Originally by: Luminous Venomous And about upgrading the game with expansions is an other matter. They could let us choose to have an expansion or not. In other mmo's people have the choise to buy add's...and if they don't buy they're still be able to play the game. So this is no reason to reducing our playtime. E. New Releases of the Software You are not entitled to receive any new releases of the Software, or any expansion packs, updates, upgrades or similar products under the EULA, but CCP may, in its sole discretion, offer any or all of the foregoing to you. CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you. Periodically, CCP will require all users to migrate to new releases of the Software in order to continue accessing the System and playing EVE. You will be informed when a new release is available and will have a period of time in which to procure and install the new release. You must install and use the new release before the period of time has lapsed to continue accessing the System and playing EVE. If you fail to install the new release when required, CCP shall not be responsible in any way for your inability to access the System or play EVE, and you shall not be entitled to receive a refund of any prepaid subscription fees or any other form of compensation. New releases could be offered to you at a discounted price. 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001
Mickey Simon Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:53:00 - [103] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Has it ever occured to anyone on these forums, that the timing has nothing to due with ****ing the least people off, but is timed so the guys maintaining the cluster can come to work, prepare and execute DT, and are still around to fix issues during normal business hours? Do you honestly think that if 30%+ of the subscriber base had their prime time during the current DT that CCP would continue to do so? I understand what you're saying, but it's not impossible for CCP to change when it does its maintenance or have people work different hours.
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:58:00 - [104] Originally by: Mickey Simon Do you honestly think that if 30%+ of the subscriber base had their prime time during the current DT that CCP would continue to do so? yes 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001
Luminous Venomous	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:17:00 - [105] Demitria Fernir are u telling me that because im paying CCP for the game that i should keep my mouth shut? I think we already passed the dark medival times If customers are complaining...the compagny should listen...we are the reason that this game exist. Lets us focus at the point please...dont bother us with unnecessary facts! Again: A lot of people here are bored and CCP can change that by some changes in their way managing of their schedules and some compensation in OUR LOST PLAYTIME...
Nerrollus Nyx Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:17:00 - [106] Originally by: Demitria Fernir Originally by: Mickey Simon Do you honestly think that if 30%+ of the subscriber base had their prime time during the current DT that CCP would continue to do so? yes Man I wish my boss thought like that .... I'm always having to work Saturdays or strange hours when we're going to take our system down, and it only impacts maybe 300 people.
Lothris Andastar	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:34:00 - [107] Originally by: Luminous Venomous Again: A lot of people here are bored and CCP can change that by some changes in their way managing of their schedules and some compensation in OUR LOST PLAYTIME... Or how about you leave and never come back? If you are so angry with CCP at "stealing" your game time then quit and dont give them any more money?
Luminous Venomous	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:42:00 - [108] Originally by: Lothris Andastar Originally by: Luminous Venomous Again: A lot of people here are bored and CCP can change that by some changes in their way managing of their schedules and some compensation in OUR LOST PLAYTIME... Or how about you leave and never come back? If you are so angry with CCP at "stealing" your game time then quit and dont give them any more money? The game itself is great. For usefull comments i like you to direct to department n00bs
Lothris Andastar	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:47:00 - [109] Originally by: Luminous Venomous The game itself is great. For usefull comments i like you to direct to department n00bs Well you cant have it both ways. SO STFU maybe?
Tyson Gallane Caldari Political Warfare Executive	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:39:00 - [110] I find that even the regular downtime totally ruins my DPS. T.
Lance Hawke Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:09:00 - [111] "While CCP attempts to have the System available at most times, CCP does not guarantee that the System will always be available, or that the System will not become unavailable during Game play. The System may become unavailable for a number of reasons, including without limitation during the performance of maintenance to the System, for the implementation of new software, for emergency situations and due to equipment or telecommunications failures." Did you not read the EULA that you accepted? Also I believe you pay for an account on the server, which is still there during DT. Not game time.
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:16:00 - [112] Originally by: Luminous Venomous Demitria Fernir are u telling me that because im paying CCP for the game that i should keep my mouth shut? no, i'm just telling you all your arguments can be easily ignored by CCP. since you keep asking something that is neither practical for devs nor actually useful, i bet they are. Originally by: Luminous Venomous I think we already passed the dark medival times where did i put "EVE is a dark, harsh universe" mega-banner? damn i was sure i left it under the bed... Originally by: Luminous Venomous If customers are complaining...the compagny should listen...we are the reason that this game exist. if you were proposing something that could improve gameplay without making CCP get **ed off, yep. making a midnight downtime would probably 'em off Originally by:** Luminous Venomous Lets us focus at the point please...dont bother us with unnecessary facts! NO U! Originally by: Luminous Venomous Again: A lot of people here are bored and CCP can change that by some changes in their way managing of their schedules and some compensation in OUR LOST PLAYTIME... bolded the funny part. and no, CCP couldn't care less about DT time, since it has been like this for 5 years while many complained in those 5 years. enjoy your pointless forum threads 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001
Luminous Venomous	Posted - 2008.10.02 21:40:00 - [113] CCP drones...if i may gues what ur breakfast is then i should say sandwiches with EULA toppings... U guys are realy sad...the only thing u can do is listing up technical facts and rules we already zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz know
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.03 02:37:00 - [114] Originally by: Nerrollus Nyx Man I wish my boss thought like that .... I'm always having to work Saturdays or strange hours when we're going to take our system down, and it only impacts maybe 300 people. Scheduling downtimes to strange hours and/or weekends is great if you have timezone dependant usage patterns or the client's employees do not work on weekends etc. A system that is only used from 8am to 5pm is of course updated between 6pm and 7am. But if you run a 23/7 service that has continuous access over all timezones, like Tranquility, DT will always be inconvenient for some users. There is no timeframe during which regularly below 1000 chars are logged in. So, there is no gain in making it inconvenient for the operating team too as you can not take it down during non-production hours. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Graic	Posted - 2008.10.03 08:39:00 - [115] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh But if you run a 23/7 service that has continuous access over all timezones, like Tranquility, DT will always be inconvenient for some users. There is no timeframe during which regularly below 1000 chars are logged in. So, there is no gain in making it inconvenient for the operating team too as you can not take it down during non-production hours. I'll agree with you to a point. DT will always be at an inconvenient time for someone - but based on server stats DT is not done at the quietest time - the quietest time is earlier and it would still far within a reasonable work day timeframe (which I argue is also still a crock that a company like CCP can't support DT any hours besides current). Extended DT is also not done at the least utilised server time. If CCP want to do a extended DT they should start it earlier and shoot for a normal start up time and give players impacted by DT at least a chance at playing the game.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.03 08:40:00 - [116] Originally by: Luminous Venomous I payed for 30 days and -1 hour dt every day No, you didn't. You paid for access to the server for whatever time it is online and available. CCP made no promises about how often the server would be available. If that is insufficient to your requirements, then find another product that does meet them. Originally by: Luminous Venomous And about upgrading the game with expansions is an other matter. They could let us choose to have an expansion or not. In other mmo's people have the choise to buy add's...and if they don't buy they're still be able to play the game. So this is no reason to reducing our playtime. Other MMO's charge you extra for expansions. Eve doesn't. Other MMO's segment their world (either by having different shards or just areas of the game world you can't access without the expansion). Eve doesn't. Other MMO's still make you take technical patches, even if you don't buy the extra content in the expansion. Both patches this week would fall into the technical category. Other MMO's still have server DT to apply expansions, even if you do not choose to buy that expansion. Their advantage is that beacuse they are sharded, they have locale-specific servers, and thus can time out-of-hours DT's effectively. Originally by: Luminous Venomous If customers are complaining...the compagny should listen...we are the reason that this game exist. Yes, the company should listen. But they also have to be pragmatic about what they can do. "The customer is always right" falls apart as soon as you have customers with mutually exclusive needs. Realistically, the best they can hope for is to minimize the number of people annoyed. Yes, technically they could move DT to a different time. But what are the advantages and disadvantages of doing that? + Improvement in potential customer numbers from Australian timezones - Reduction in potential customer numbers from whichever timezone is now hit - Devaluation of exisitng marketing investment in the newly-hit timezone and additional costs in ramping up Australian marketing instead - Extra staffing costs to fully staff running a DT in unsociable hours, server local time One timezone is always going to be hit. Yes, it sucks if that's your timezone, but it's always going to be someone's timezone. Moving DT only makes business sense if the newly hit timezone has less market potential compared to the current one, and the expected gain in customer revenue outweighs the additional cost of running the DT at a different time. Of course, you could always have a rolling DT to avoid total annoyance of one timezone. But that risks annoying a far larger proportion of the playerbase, not only with the effect of DT itself, but because of the extra hassle of keeping track of when DT is each day. Then there's the staffing costs of maintaining rolling shift-work to achieve rolling DT. It's very unlikely to be a good business decision. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Graic	Posted - 2008.10.03 08:48:00 - [117] Edited by: Graic on 03/10/2008 08:53:23 Edited by: Graic on 03/10/2008 08:49:49 Originally by: Matthew Yes, technically they could move DT to a different time. But what are the advantages and disadvantages of doing that? + Improvement in potential customer numbers from Australian timezones - Reduction in potential customer numbers from whichever timezone is now hit - Devaluation of exisitng marketing investment in the newly-hit timezone and additional costs in ramping up Australian marketing instead - Extra staffing costs to fully staff running a DT in unsociable hours, server local time One timezone is always going to be hit. Yes, it sucks if that's your timezone, but it's always going to be someone's timezone. Moving DT only makes business sense if the newly hit timezone has less market potential compared to the current one, and the expected gain in customer revenue outweighs the additional cost of running the DT at a different time. As you point out rolling DT is a VERY bad idea - and I'm the most impacted by the current. It would be confusing and horrible to resource plan for. However, to your previous points: http://www.tiglion.com/travel/region/timezone.htm A few hours earlier is heck of a lower geographic / population dense impact. A much greater opportunity to attract customers from better serviced areas. A move back a few hours is STILL in the CCP workday. Server stats show that a few hours back is the most quiet time - i.e. least customers.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.03 09:08:00 - [118] Originally by: Graic A few hours earlier is heck of a lower geographic / population dense impact. A much greater opportunity to attract customers from better serviced areas. A move back a few hours is STILL in the CCP workday. Server stats show that a few hours back is the most quiet time - i.e. least customers. So you'd be looking to have a DT around 9-10am GMT? Putting Australia DT 5-8pm depending on which bit of Australia you're talking about. I can see your point geographically, though I doubt your New Zealand neighbours would thank you My only reservation about this is that while this would put DT inside normal working hours, it leaves pretty much no in-hours preparation time that day before the DT. While this could be worked around to an extent by prepping the afternoon before, it means there won't be much chance of addressing any specific issues that arose during peak-time the previous evening beyond restarting the server and hoping that clears it. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Elden VanVoiden Caldari Universal Moose Foundation	Posted - 2008.10.03 13:10:00 - [119] So.. move it the other way... what about 2pm gmt start? The reason I posted my reply in this thread was because a cpp employee had already responded in this thread. I there fore hoped that someone would continue to monitor it..... Come on CCP its simple, if anyone in your company has a modi****of customer relations experience they should shouting at you to make a statement, surely...... Otherwise you really do appear not to care about your customers!!!! Stop treating us like addicts and start treating us like customers!
Pteranodon	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:53:00 - [120] How inconvenient would it be to roll the downtime say every couple of months by say 1 hour or 2 hours. I'm sure that would work as instead of a fixed downtime hour everybody gets get a crack at playing uninterupted for a couple of months. Who says the downtime has to be fixed at the same time forever or is CCP support not a 24 hour operation?

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