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Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 07:48:00 -
[1]
This is a constitutional issue that has been stated in a passing note within the latest CSM devblog, about the sudden 21 year age limit suddenly imposed by CSM for candidates in the next election. As mentioned in the comments thread, this has effectively broadsided LaVista's re-election campaign.
Given that voters were conscious of LV's age, and that he had been publicly tested and vindicated on the forums through running 2 public organisation successfully within Market Discussions, LV having wanted to run for CSM was first effectively elected within MD as the preferred candidate for championing Science, Industry and Economic matters, and won a place on the CSM.
Therefore, this sudden rule change has put a massive spanner in both CSM candidates and voters who are interested in this particular area, and thus is something that requires a little more thought.
This is especially pertinent as the next patch, MIDAS, will be targetted to industry and general improvements across this part of the game, of which LV is the champion delegate of exactly that area.
Now while I generally agree with the age limit, in this particular case the candidate should be omitted from this rule.
I therefore propose a small clause to be added that instead of just 'the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate' that it becomes 'the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate, unless the candidate has held a position on the CSM previously'.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Mr Horizontal
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 07:59:00 -
[2]
Adding the thumbs up.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Typhado3
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.26 08:11:00 -
[3]
can understand in some countries this might make sense but to put it on all eve players is a bit much... 18 I would agree with but 21 is too much.
CCP please look at mining agent mining mission %..... I want better than 60% mining missions from a mining agent =( |
Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.26 08:38:00 -
[4]
I guess its because of the hard spirits and ccp doesn't want to be compromised by pictures showing them with a drunk underaged ^^
tbh, I don't care. Average age of players is well above 21 I can imagine and so I have no problem with that rule. CCP will have their reasons for that
Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face
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SentryRaven
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.09.26 09:07:00 -
[5]
Don't nerf LaVista Vista.... --------
I play nekkid. |
Elhina Novae
Sky's Edge
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Posted - 2008.09.26 09:22:00 -
[6]
LaVista Vista can't go ------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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ian666
Rave Technologies Inc. C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.09.26 09:58:00 -
[7]
limit should be higher and not allowing kids to do important things
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Padanemi
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Posted - 2008.09.26 10:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ian666 limit should be higher and not allowing kids to do important things
You're right. Players of 20 years old and younger are not important and completely irrelevant.
While we're at it, women should be banned as well.
Communists too.
WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING?!?!?!
If there NEEDS to be a limit, it should -in my opinion- be 18. But I also highly doubt there should be a lower age limit at all.
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Finite Solution
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:54:00 -
[9]
The sudden change is odd, and LV should be allowed under this rule. If alcohol consumption is the key here, simply make a rule about underaged drinking and minimum-age in country of citizenship.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Finite Solution The sudden change is odd, and LV should be allowed under this rule. If alcohol consumption is the key here, simply make a rule about underaged drinking and minimum-age in country of citizenship.
Alcohol consumption was not an issue. The CSM was asked to stay sober for the CSM meetings and it could simply be enforced for people who are under the age of majority.
The age of buying alcohol in my country, Denmark, is 16. But people should of course respect Icelandic law.
Originally by: Padanemi
a) there is no "relevant" age restriction on playing the game (other than the 13 years of age), b) if the under-age player has parental consent to play the game, and c) the CSM is the body that represents the players, I find it highly irrational to impose an age restriction. If the CSM is a democratic representation of the player base, let it be a democracy for EVERYONE.
I agree.
The answer Xhagen has given is that it's due to practical reason of the NDA. But this is irrational due to the fact I had to have it signed by a legal guardian as well.
I could understand a limit of 18. But not 21.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:21:00 -
[11]
LaVista Vista is doing a far better job as being a representative for the not-so-pewpew side of EVE than many others who are on the CSM.
He stays until his 2 terms are up. -
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Athre
The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:22:00 -
[12]
I believe LVV should be grandfathered in.
The rule was not in place originally He got specific permission from the GM's last round He's got parental permission (parent signed NDA).
I can see this rule being applied forward but not backward.
I support putting LVV on the ballot.
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Benilopax
Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Benilopax on 26/09/2008 13:31:50 LV stays! Or our wrath shall be furious!
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Elhina Novae
Sky's Edge
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ian666 limit should be higher and not allowing kids to do important things
LaVista Vista is doing a great, job. He replies to numberous topics and are helpful and brings forwards alot of ideas to CCP, which probably wouldn't get there if it wasn't for him. Hell is he possibly one of the most loved members of the CSM? He's had this position now and suddenly it will be denied? ------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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Irida Mershkov
War is Bliss
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:00:00 -
[15]
I voted for Vista! He stays!
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Imperius Blackheart
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:01:00 -
[16]
One of the guys I respect the most on the CSM. Let stand again CCP.
KIA Corp Recruitment Director, mail me for more info. |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:02:00 -
[17]
Whether you agree with the age limit or not, it's bad to change the rules after a process has already started.
Get LVV back in Boink! |
Daria Hahn
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:02:00 -
[18]
Age discrimination is NOT cool.
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Uzume Ame
Dark Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:11:00 -
[19]
CCP puts this cause 'they look funny' to press, bad stuff CCP, i though you had mroe personality as a company. Teh failure of a signature. |
Peeh
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:21:00 -
[20]
I`m all for the 18+ rule instead of the 21+.
CCP consideried the CSM meeting to be a success, thus proving that people under 21 can handle the responsbility that has been entrusted them.
Furthermore, CCP wants us to move towards a gaming democracy (even if in this case could be considered metagaming). And the people, the players, have cast their votes.
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Amarr Citizen 155
Alternative Methods Research Group
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:40:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 26/09/2008 14:41:18 Gotta say I'm surpised by this move. I had a nice long post typed up but the forums ate it(probably because it was witty and clever).
So in short, I hereby dismiss any age-related changes to the CSM requirements effective immediatly. Pull your head out CCP and do the right thing.
As Amarr Citizen 155, spokesperson for the Amarrian race and supreme ruler of Vaajaita, I approve this message.
Edit: forgot my thumb
Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
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Gone'Postal
Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:02:00 -
[22]
Support Added,
Boost SISI VOTE NOW! |
SencneS
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:09:00 -
[23]
It's a simple as this, since LaVista Vista has already signed an NDA and is legally bound by an NDA he doesn't need to sign another. So legally CCP and LaVista Vista AND the parent/legal guardian who signed the NDA are covered.
There is no legal reason why LaVista Vista should NOT be able to run again.
Amarr for Life |
Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: ian666 limit should be higher and not allowing kids to do important things
The irony in this post is unbelievable. _
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Conrad Murphy
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Posted - 2008.09.26 16:08:00 -
[25]
Stopping a well-functioning and well-supported CSM member from running for re-election is not gonna increase faith in the CSM as an institution.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Evil Bastards
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Posted - 2008.09.26 16:19:00 -
[26]
This is hilarious. I'll support it as such.
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Angel Lightbringer
Caldari Dark Evolution Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.26 16:24:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Conrad Murphy Stopping a well-functioning and well-supported CSM member from running for re-election is not gonna increase faith in the CSM as an institution.
This!
/signed for added support to LV.
Rule could be applied, but current under-aged CSM members should be allowed for a second term, let voters decides if they did a good job or not. -Angel |
Mukatsuku
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Posted - 2008.09.26 16:41:00 -
[28]
Having an age limit is cool. Preventing a well known, proven CSM from running again.. NOT COOL. Get your act together CCP...
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Tmarte
Explora Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.26 16:49:00 -
[29]
The 21 year old age limit is bullshit. I voted for LVV, and want him back. He's the only person on the CSM that cares about us carebears.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:10:00 -
[30]
I'd at least like to see CCP explain why they've changed the age limit. If there's some obscure insurance or legal issue then I guess they'd have to comply, but tell us so rather than just pull the rug from under an existing CSM. -----------
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:10:00 -
[31]
Echoing the sentiment in this thread, he has done a good job, and is very visible on forums being generally useful, waive the restriction for him, drop the restriction back to 18+, or at least give us a VERY good reason why you have instated it.
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Drake Draconis
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:58:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/09/2008 17:58:02 /me signed
There should be a "brain age" Limit...not an age limit.
Like the yahoo who remarked about kids.... he should be blocked.
Not the other way around.
Most kids these days are not very bright.. but there are a few who are actually smarter and more intelligent than the adults are...most adults are as dumb as bricks.
LVV is great for the CSM.... he has my support.
Don't kick him for his age. Should be an qualification of Maturity...not Age.
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Demetri Slavic
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.26 18:04:00 -
[33]
LV, one of the main reasons that the CSM was at all effective and not a complete joke.
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Mistress Evita
Caldari Booze and Hookers
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Posted - 2008.09.26 18:39:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal I therefore propose a small clause to be added that instead of just 'the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate' that it becomes 'the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate, unless the candidate has held a position on the CSM previously'.
No. I can not support this so I do a thumbs down.
You either let em all in or none of em in.
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Leumas Kharzim
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Posted - 2008.09.26 18:57:00 -
[35]
I support the clause. Let LVV be grandfathered in. |
Kalahari Wayrest
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.26 19:09:00 -
[36]
Quote: I therefore propose a small clause to be added that instead of just 'the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate' that it becomes 'the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate, unless the candidate has held a position on the CSM previously'.
I don't actually agree with this per se as I'm against the plan in general - I think LaVista's candidacy alone proves it redundant, and given people can own accounts and play under the ages of 21, then they should also be represented.
Nevertheless, I'll vote thumbs up, as a clause highlights there's a flaw in the proposed plan. __________________________ Indulge Me Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥ Wow immy scored - Xorus
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Lia Gaeren
Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.09.26 19:18:00 -
[37]
LaVista Vista is the best of the CSM delegates and has performed his elected role better than any other two CSMs combined that you could care to name. Should he wish to stand again, he should have the option to do so... as an earlier poster mentioned, LV is why the CSM project has not deteriorated into a complete farce.
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DEATHsyphon
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.09.26 19:21:00 -
[38]
I don't know the guy but all of a sudden changes like that that seem to blatantly out someone is ridicules. SUPPORTED -------------------- I'm not not going to pod you! |
Drolus
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Posted - 2008.09.26 19:26:00 -
[39]
let him run again, he keeps the other mouthbreathers in check
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Kuga Kita
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.26 20:34:00 -
[40]
Way to force someone out of the party.
Exclusionary tactics ftl... CSM isn't American politics.
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Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.26 20:46:00 -
[41]
Fully support this.
Vista has been one of the most levelheaded guys in the CSM so far.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Treelox
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.26 23:52:00 -
[42]
I really really think that LV should be grandfathered in on this change.
While I can understand why CCP wouldn want to put in an age limit, in LV's case the "damage" has already been done.
--
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TimMc
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2008.09.27 01:52:00 -
[43]
Originally by: ian666 limit should be higher and not allowing kids to do important things
If the kid has the right ideas and the people vote him in, who are you to judge?
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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2008.09.27 06:18:00 -
[44]
I can see age restrictions being relevant in some cases. However, 18 and an actionable NDA seem quite sufficient in this case. 21 is overkill, unnecessary and blocks one of the more effective CSM members currently serving from extending his competent work by re-running.
Odd move, CCP.
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John Holt
ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.27 07:16:00 -
[45]
An age limit is okay, but its wrong to blind side LaVista with it. He has served well and should be allowed to continue to serve if he is elected a second time.
John Holt My Personal Eve Site
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Ambo
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.27 09:02:00 -
[46]
LVV is great for the community and has done far more than most. No reason at all not to allow him to stand for re-election. --------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.09.27 09:39:00 -
[47]
Unless there are some very compelling legal reasons under Iceland or international law (possible, something laws have strange quirks), I see no reason to implement a 21 years age limit. Competence is much more important.
18 seem sufficient to avoid legal problems for my limited legal knowledge.
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Redbad
Mean Corp Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.27 12:25:00 -
[48]
huh? Under 21 is banned from being a delegate?
So much for: "the youth has the future".
Age is overrated ... you you get older than 40, you know, trust me.
Thumbs up for this proposal, although I think age limits are stupid.
RB
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fuze
Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.09.27 12:29:00 -
[49]
LVV shouldn't be the victim of CCP's ignorance of his age before the first elections.
Besides hes a darn good CSM delegate. Pherhaps too good? |
Garion Avarr
Zero Zero Traders YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.09.27 14:18:00 -
[50]
At the very least, I think CCP should give an explaination. ________________________________ This is not a signature. |
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soldieroffortune 258
Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.09.27 14:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tmarte The 21 year old age limit is bullshit. I voted for LVV, and want him back. He's the only person on the CSM that cares about us carebears.
which is why he should be nerfed . . .
(just a joke people, kidding)
i think it is rather stupid to impose this, if they simply aare doing it because of the fanfest alcohol or whatever, then, it shouldnt be a problem, they HAVE to respect icelandic law, which means he couldnt drink anyway( if he's under the age, ofcourse), why the hell should they impose another rule about it if one's already there?
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.09.27 15:08:00 -
[52]
I agree with most people that the rule, especially imposed so late in the process, and so shortly before the elections smells of elitism and corruption. Some CSM want prevent other CSM from running, and thus maximize chances of success?
I fully support repelling of the rule in its current form, and giving LvV a chance to run again. Especially since he was the only one who kept us updated on a Dead Horse POS issue, while rest of the CSM was asleep, or ignoring it.
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.09.27 15:17:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jinx Barker I agree with most people that the rule, especially imposed so late in the process, and so shortly before the elections smells of elitism and corruption. Some CSM want prevent other CSM from running, and thus maximize chances of success?
I fully support repelling of the rule in its current form, and giving LvV a chance to run again. Especially since he was the only one who kept us updated on a Dead Horse POS issue, while rest of the CSM was asleep, or ignoring it.
or Generally ****ing around, like always. _
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Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.09.27 16:31:00 -
[54]
Supported
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Aloriana Jacques
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.27 17:31:00 -
[55]
I support an age of 18 at maximum unless CCP gives an acceptable and credible reason as to why it should be 21 instead. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Efrim Black
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Posted - 2008.09.27 19:38:00 -
[56]
Viva LaVista!
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SysFin
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Posted - 2008.09.27 19:39:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Efrim Black Viva LaVista!
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.09.27 19:45:00 -
[58]
Edited by: NanDe YaNen on 27/09/2008 19:45:06 If he can get elected, let it happen. |
Blade Kinnerson
Flying Fox Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.27 20:46:00 -
[59]
I do not see that age means anything in this subject; clearly understands the game, the economics and the math, so let him keep working on it
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Athre
Minmatar The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.09.27 21:30:00 -
[60]
Originally by: fuze LVV shouldn't be the victim of CCP's ignorance of his age before the first elections.
Besides hes a darn good CSM delegate. Pherhaps too good?
They were not ignorant, he asked prior to the 1st election. They gave a nod at that time. I am disappointed they are giving the no now.
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Dagrin RDM
The Leather Knights Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.09.27 22:29:00 -
[61]
Barring some legal reasoning (that you think they would have known about before the first election), I'd say 18 could be considered a reasonable limit, but 21 is stupid.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.28 00:50:00 -
[62]
I like LVV as a CSM, but even if I didn't I'd be quite confused by this. It is, of course, possible that this is just something forced upon CCP by law somehow, and I'm hardly in a position to dispute the interpretation of Icelandic law they've gotten from their lawyers(though according to Wikipedia, the age of majority is 18 in Iceland, and only 21 in 13 small countries and Mississippi).
But assuming it wasn't a lawyerly mandate, I can't understand what they're trying to avoid here. They know first-hand that younger people can be effective, intelligent, and mature representatives, and I'm sure I'm sure that Icelandic politics isn't so foreign that there's never been a childish buffoon well over the age of 21 elected. This doesn't make sense as a "We want CSMers to be people worth consulting with" move, and unless they feel a need to follow the age of consent in Chad or Singapore, it also doesn't make sense as a legal move, especially given that they've shown a willingness to accept parents cosigning NDAs. And even if they weren't willing to accept that, they should say "Must have achieved the age of majority in both your home country and Iceland", not a flat 21. It still wouldn't help LVV for this cycle, to my understanding of his age, but it'd be better for all involved going forward. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
shuckstar
Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2008.09.28 03:44:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Verone Fully support this.
Vista has been one of the most levelheaded guys in the CSM so far.
This, and supported.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.09.28 06:25:00 -
[64]
The age limit should be the lowest of the age one is considered an adult in the candidates home country and Iceland. As much as younger people can contribute, there are very good legal reasons to have this set.
It really is a question for the lawyers.
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Protheroe
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Posted - 2008.09.28 07:13:00 -
[65]
I've yet to hear a sensible justification for this move. |
B'wana
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.28 08:47:00 -
[66]
I understand there is a CSM meeting today, how much you want to bet they take the easy way to eliminate one of competition in the upcoming election and do not even discuss this.
^^^sig zone indicator^^^
PR troll of Treelox |
Shikari Sween
Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.28 11:58:00 -
[67]
Thumbs up, really needs a looking into
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Banni Vinda
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.09.28 12:55:00 -
[68]
Originally by: SencneS It's a simple as this, since LaVista Vista has already signed an NDA and is legally bound by an NDA he doesn't need to sign another. So legally CCP and LaVista Vista AND the parent/legal guardian who signed the NDA are covered.
There is no legal reason why LaVista Vista should NOT be able to run again.
My thoughts exactly. LaVista Vista has shown himself to be as mature as the rest of the CSM (possibly even more so in some cases). Changing the rules like this after the fact, when it was brought up and accepted prior to the first CSM seems mighty unfair to me. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.28 15:13:00 -
[69]
Originally by: B'wana I understand there is a CSM meeting today, how much you want to bet they take the easy way to eliminate one of competition in the upcoming election and do not even discuss this.
First off, such an obviously undemocratic move would get them hammered in the vote. Secondly, a bunch of them won't be running again, and thus have no reason to block LVV even if they were inclined towards such behaviour. Thirdly, they're not all complete *******s. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2008.09.28 15:22:00 -
[70]
fourthly the issue came up after the deadline for submission to discuss at the meeting - no doubt it will be on the agenda for the next meeting tho or possibly the meeting with the devs. ----------------------
CSM 08 Blog |
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Ranamar
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Posted - 2008.09.28 17:45:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Mukatsuku Having an age limit is cool. Preventing a well known, proven CSM from running again.. NOT COOL. Get your act together CCP...
My sentiments exactly... (also in favor of suggestions to reduce it to 18...)
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Dierdra Vaal
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:10:00 -
[72]
Changing the rules under the current circumstances is just odd. Normally this wouldnt matter, but since we have a CSM member under 21 its a bit of an exception. The rule itself is ok, but an exception should be made for LVV.
Training Director :: EVE University
CSM Representative |
Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:57:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 28/09/2008 20:57:25 Yes for the exception no for removing the new rule.
If you were elected as a CSM in the previous election or an alternate in the previous election you should be allowed to run again dispite the age limit. New applicants should be required to be 21 years of age. --
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steejans nix
0beron Construct Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2008.09.28 21:52:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Protheroe I've yet to hear a sensible justification for this move.
And whats the odds we ever will hear a creditable reason ?
Supported not only to allow vista the chance to run but all players over 18 or so as we the voters should decide who gets in.
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Gerard Deneth
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2008.09.29 02:46:00 -
[75]
I support LV's re-election.
Additionally, if a parent signs for the minor, wouldn't that take care of concerns regarding liability?
---------------------------- The Game's always changing under your feet; don't start moaning when you get a toe caught in the gears. |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.09.29 04:52:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Gerard Deneth I support LV's re-election.
Additionally, if a parent signs for the minor, wouldn't that take care of concerns regarding liability?
That is correct. And this was also the case with my NDA, thus making it valid. This invalidates Xhagen's claim that it's due to legal reasons.
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.09.29 06:01:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 29/09/2008 06:01:41
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Gerard Deneth I support LV's re-election.
Additionally, if a parent signs for the minor, wouldn't that take care of concerns regarding liability?
That is correct. And this was also the case with my NDA, thus making it valid. This invalidates Xhagen's claim that it's due to legal reasons.
Exactly, any nay-sayers are full of fail and po0pey.
and like to take it in the p0oper.
****. _
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Astria Tiphareth
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:01:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 29/09/2008 12:04:00 Bizarre - especially considering I've held mature debates with 15 year olds and heard thoroughly immature rubbish from 30 year olds... Blanket generalisations never go anywhere good.
Edit: Besides, at the age of 18, in a lot of countries, you're old enough to drink, drive, vote, and have sex (preferably not at the same time) - I dare say those are vastly more important issues than whether or not you participate in a CSM about an Internet game, so 21 seems a very odd choice. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Smertrios
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.29 15:38:00 -
[79]
Its not fair on LV and he has been doing arguably the best job on the CSM.
Either give him an exception to the rule or better yet lower the age to something more sensible like 18. |
Tecam Hund
The Buggers
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Posted - 2008.09.29 19:08:00 -
[80]
If there is a limit it should be 18.
Any 21 year old limits are ridiculous anyway, including underage drinking related laws.
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Nypon
Unseen University
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Posted - 2008.09.29 19:56:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Nypon on 29/09/2008 19:56:34 Not only does the iclandic eqvivalent to Systembolaget only have two sorts of ale and trappist beer, this is even more backwards.
Drop it to 18.
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Urban Mongral
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Posted - 2008.09.29 20:27:00 -
[82]
Viva LaVista!! |
Fraszoid
Condottieri Industries The Economy
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Posted - 2008.09.29 20:35:00 -
[83]
LeVista Vista should get grandfathered in because he has already signed all the legal documents from last time, and has proven him self a valuable member of the CSM. Also 18 is more reasonable for democracy, and that is age of majority in most countries. -------------------------------------------------- Everyone is born right handed, only the great over come it.
Check out my players guide at: http://www.eve-miners.info/guide/minersguide.html |
olyyy
V I R I I
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Posted - 2008.09.29 21:03:00 -
[84]
Agreed. Another solution must be found.
I am also very disappointed to see that such a thread is necessary...
Men never lie more than before elections, during war and after hunting. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.30 10:27:00 -
[85]
In England, at eighteen you're considered mature enough to:
*Vote in elections *Join the army and die for your country *Get married without parental consent *Become a local councillor *Purchase alcohol
But according to CCP, you're not mature enough to discuss internet spaceships. |
Sylthi
Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.09.30 10:47:00 -
[86]
To mostly steal from the above author:
In the United States, at eighteen you're considered mature enough to:
*Vote in elections *Join the army and kill/die for your country *Get married without parental consent *Run for local office *Purchase cigaretts
But according to CCP, you're not mature enough to discuss rulings about a game that accepts 13-year-olds as players.
Yeah. Right. Come'on CCP! Get your collective heads out of your butts and re-think this! |
Achuni
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Posted - 2008.09.30 11:40:00 -
[87]
Signed |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.09.30 12:00:00 -
[88]
but isn't the drinking age in iceland 20?
just saying
oh and support
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.09.30 12:22:00 -
[89]
This is not part of my sig. |
Selisity
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Posted - 2008.09.30 15:03:00 -
[90]
Supporting a grandfather clause. |
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Elena Morin'staal
Tau Online Explorator Corp
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Posted - 2008.09.30 15:23:00 -
[91]
Signing this for good measure. |
Ivena Amethyst
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:24:00 -
[92]
I iz giv moar support
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Sir SmellyFart
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Posted - 2008.09.30 17:26:00 -
[93]
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winthrowe
Node Alpha Defense Research
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Posted - 2008.10.01 01:37:00 -
[94]
I found LVV to be an excellent delegate and was very much hoping to vote for him again this term, especially with the midas expansion being next on the agenda.
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Ghost 3374923
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Posted - 2008.10.01 12:26:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Ghost 3374923 on 01/10/2008 12:29:06 Irrespective of who, I or anyone else is going to vote for, this is an outrage. No age limits can be made, any citizen of EVE who gets enough votes has the right to be elected and anything else would be a scandal!
/signed
Makes you wonder...if there are elements in CCP, who want to acheive something that has nothing to do with this age limit...
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Arimus Darkhart
Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.10.01 17:48:00 -
[96]
Assuming the NDA is the issue and it has been signed by LV's parent(s)/guardian(s) and they're fine with him carrying out his CSM duties then I fail to see what the problem is.
If CCP want to introduce this rule then just wait till LV is 21, or make the rule something along the lines of: "all new candidates for the CSM must be a minimum age of 21, this rule does not apply to existing CSM members who have already been elected to their position"
-- Users are like a virus - each causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally dies. |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.01 20:42:00 -
[97]
Originally by: SencneS It's a simple as this, since LaVista Vista has already signed an NDA and is legally bound by an NDA he doesn't need to sign another. So legally CCP and LaVista Vista AND the parent/legal guardian who signed the NDA are covered.
There is no legal reason why LaVista Vista should NOT be able to run again.
BIG Lottery |
Aiden Bismuth
Die Boeremag
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Posted - 2008.10.02 07:12:00 -
[98]
I think that they should make an exception for LV.
They can enforce the age limit on subsequent candidates, but I think it would be a good idea to reduce it to 18, unless Icelandic law requires them to make the age limit 21.
B
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Ghost 3374923
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Posted - 2008.10.02 12:30:00 -
[99]
support
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Maria Kalista
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Posted - 2008.10.02 13:15:00 -
[100]
All for it --> "a small clause to be added that instead of just 'the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate' that it becomes 'the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate, unless the candidate has held a position on the CSM previously'."
Originally by: CCP Mitnal You put a bear in your tea???
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Nyza Lobot
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Posted - 2008.10.02 14:13:00 -
[101]
/signed
I regret my vote (for other unnamed candidate) but I have been impressed with LaVista. Let him run!
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Kim Wilde
Gallente Covenant
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Posted - 2008.10.02 14:46:00 -
[102]
its also about maturity so id say 21 is also ok as some countrys have limited rights from 18 to 21
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WishBlade
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2008.10.02 16:29:00 -
[103]
18 over 21 Aweseomenessness |
Mynxee
Hellcats Doom Armada
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Posted - 2008.10.02 16:35:00 -
[104]
Grandfather LaVista in...his maturity and professional demeanor exceed his actual age by a long shot. If a limit for FUTURE candidates must be set, 18 seems to make more sense than 21.
Life in Low Sec | Hellcats
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Duck Andcover
Evil ALT Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.02 22:19:00 -
[105]
Yarrr. Thumbs up. |
Trist Ian
Free Galactic Enterprises Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.10.02 23:02:00 -
[106]
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.03 16:25:00 -
[107]
The implementation of this rule has been postponed. So it seems like we made CCP change their mind.
Hurray!
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.10.03 17:31:00 -
[108]
Originally by: LaVista Vista The implementation of this rule has been postponed. So it seems like we made CCP change their mind.
Hurray!
The rule has been postponed or you have been grandfathered in? Cause if it has been postponed my 13yr old cousin wants to try and run for CSM.
:P --
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Criswell White
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.10.03 18:21:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Athre I believe LVV should be grandfathered in.
How do we grandfather him when he's under 21? Wouldn't that be physically impossible?
Seriously, LaVistaVista has complied with every CCP requirement, and has proven to be a strong advocate for industrial improvements. We should be free to elect who we feel is best qualified, and I support LaVistaVista.
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Athre
Minmatar The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.10.03 19:27:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Criswell White
Originally by: Athre I believe LVV should be grandfathered in.
How do we grandfather him when he's under 21? Wouldn't that be physically impossible?
Seriously, LaVistaVista has complied with every CCP requirement, and has proven to be a strong advocate for industrial improvements. We should be free to elect who we feel is best qualified, and I support LaVistaVista.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause
A grandfather clause is a term used in U.S. English for an exception that allows an old rule to continue to apply to some existing situations, when a new rule will apply to all future situations. It is often used as a verb: to grandfather means to grant such an exemption. For example, a "grandfathered power plant" might be exempt from newer and tougher pollution laws. Often, such a provision is used as a compromise, to effect new rules without upsetting a well-established logistical or political situation. This extends the idea of a rule not being retroactively applied. A portion of a statute that provides that the law is not applicable in certain circumstances due to preexisting facts.
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Ethaet
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.10.03 19:53:00 -
[111]
Supported. -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard |
Ackaroth
Plundering Penguins
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Posted - 2008.10.03 23:42:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki I guess its because of the hard spirits and ccp doesn't want to be compromised by pictures showing them with a drunk underaged ^^
tbh, I don't care. Average age of players is well above 21 I can imagine and so I have no problem with that rule. CCP will have their reasons for that
Outside of America, you can legally drink without being 21, so that shouldn't be an issue. Its not something you will get a ticket for when you get back to the border :p
Supported. Never heard of him, and not an industry person, but if he is good at what he does and has the general player vote, I say allow him to run for office again.
/me hopes ccp doesnt say ok just to quiet the crowd and then rig vote so he loses >.<
Plundering Penguins is recruiting PVP pilots. See Recruitment Thread for details. |
McFly
C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.04 00:06:00 -
[113]
LaVista for Reelection
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2008.10.04 03:17:00 -
[114]
Originally by: LaVista Vista The implementation of this rule has been postponed. So it seems like we made CCP change their mind.
Hurray!
Good!
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P Lansdale
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Posted - 2008.10.04 10:25:00 -
[115]
Supported.
It doesn't matter that CCP changed their minds...what matters is that somehow they thought that this wasn't going to be a problem.
This is why the CSM is often seen as a joke outfit that has little sway, continual poor decisions from CCP management made without proper thought of the concequencies. |
TimGascoigne
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.04 11:54:00 -
[116]
21 is way to old as a lot of eve players are not 21 and LaVista has demonstrated that younger candidates can do a good job as CSM.
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Myryaminda
Caldari Stellar Research Incorporated DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.10.04 14:03:00 -
[117]
Anyone who shone in the past will most probably shine in the future.
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Myryaminda
Stellar Research Incorporated DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.10.04 14:05:00 -
[118]
Anyone who shone in the past will most probably shine in the future.
P.S. stupid check _________________________________________________________________________
In case you ever run out of gift ideas, here's a little tip: give me your laugh. Whether it's mischievous, tender, loud, or quiet, simply give me a laugh from your heart. Your laughter brings me never-ending joy.
- Helmut Walch
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Criswell White
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.10.04 23:20:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Athre
Originally by: Criswell White
Originally by: Athre I believe LVV should be grandfathered in.
How do we grandfather him when he's under 21? Wouldn't that be physically impossible?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause
Twas a joke. As far as mininum age goes, the President of the United States is constitutionally required to be at least 40 years old, and look what that rule has given us.
Re-elect LaVistaVista.
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stadshage
Monkey Universe Corporation Monkey Religion
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Posted - 2008.10.04 23:45:00 -
[120]
18 age limet is fine 21 is insaine i mean legal to drink 16 drug 18 and run for office 21 lolz
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Brock Nelson
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.05 03:26:00 -
[121]
Got my vote
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Kahega Amielden
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.05 04:22:00 -
[122]
An age limit of 18 is necessary because it's probably not feasible to have minors travelling abroad alone for CSM meetings and such...too many potential issues that could crop up with laws, etc.
An age limit of 21 is just stupid, unnecessary, and based only in the stereotype that people who aren't 21 are dipshits. LVV proves that false pretty well.
Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.05 09:58:00 -
[123]
21 is the legal drinking age in some of the most drinking stringent countries, which means we will have more drunk CSMS.
I would support 18+ but 21+ is a little much, I mean I am 18 and I like to believe I am capable of some coherent thought.
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Dihania
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.06 09:32:00 -
[124]
21 why? why not 18 ?
in support of LV future candidacy. [hrhr]
Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
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Llohe Davison
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:37:00 -
[125]
The hell...
LV's the last guy they should be keeping out of CSM, esp with the upcoming Midas patch.
Supported.
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Mirielle Davison
Minmatar Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:40:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Mirielle Davison on 07/10/2008 18:40:05 edit |
Ice Baby
Ice Cream Express
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Posted - 2008.10.08 03:23:00 -
[127]
I so wanted to troll this, but Lavista is probably the best CSM, so bah... ------------------------------ Adding bounty will not make it easier to kill me. |
Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:55:00 -
[128]
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:18:00 -
[129]
Originally by: stadshage i mean legal to drink 16 drug 18
Just curious - where on earth do you live where it's legal to do drugs at 18??!
Unless you mean like Paracetamol and Ibuprofen.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:20:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Lia Gaeren
Originally by: stadshage i mean legal to drink 16 drug 18
Just curious - where on earth do you live where it's legal to do drugs at 18??!
Unless you mean like Paracetamol and Ibuprofen.
My guess would be the Netherlands. Does anyone else actually legalize drugs? ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:14:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
My guess would be the Netherlands. Does anyone else actually legalize drugs?
California!
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:44:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
My guess would be the Netherlands. Does anyone else actually legalize drugs?
California!
I thought California law just decriminalized them, and even then, the DEA still exists there. Californians routinely go to jail under federal drug laws that the federal government has no right to make, because they decided back in the 1930s that following the Constitution wasn't cool anymore. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
manasi
Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:16:00 -
[133]
Come on CCP let 18 and Up participate! LaVista Vista is a great CSM members ( and the one of 2 supported) come on folks!
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:59:00 -
[134]
Originally by: manasi Come on CCP let 18 and Up participate! LaVista Vista is a great CSM members ( and the one of 2 supported) come on folks!
They've changed their minds, there's no age limit for round 2, it'll be coming in with round 3. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
FOEHAMMER006
Damage Unlimited Inc INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.10.09 06:55:00 -
[135]
Good luck LV
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:28:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: manasi Come on CCP let 18 and Up participate! LaVista Vista is a great CSM members ( and the one of 2 supported) come on folks!
They've changed their minds, there's no age limit for round 2, it'll be coming in with round 3.
It will still be a bad move in round 3.
Maybe we need to elect an extra 18 year old in round 2 who will be able to stand again in round 3 so that we can have this debate all over again.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Mika Katon
The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.09 22:07:00 -
[137]
Supported.
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Phoenix493
Orion Expeditions
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Posted - 2008.10.11 00:32:00 -
[138]
Supported.
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RiseofFilth
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Posted - 2008.11.22 00:21:00 -
[139]
it is insane if CCP actually thinks that they do not have a large under-21 player base. I agree with a 18 year old limit just because that is when most countries legitimize adulthood, but what really matter when it comes to trying to better the game is ideas one puts forth and their maturity and seriousness when handling issues in the CSM
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Simokon
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:51:00 -
[140]
18 would have been a far better number then 21.
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Zey Nadar
Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.22 15:42:00 -
[141]
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Mikhale Romanov
Black Hats Delta
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Posted - 2008.11.22 23:30:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Padanemi Edited by: Padanemi on 26/09/2008 11:22:40
Originally by: ian666 limit should be higher and not allowing kids to do important things
You're right. Players of 20 years old and younger are not important and completely irrelevant.
While we're at it, women should be banned as well.
Communists too.
WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING?!?!?!
If there NEEDS to be a limit, it should -in my opinion- be 18. But I also highly doubt there should be a lowest permitted age limit at all.
Edit 1: Isn't this restriction a bit TOO photographic...?
Edit 2: Since a) there is no "relevant" age restriction on playing the game (other than the 13 years of age), b) if the under-age player has parental consent to play the game, and c) the CSM is the body that represents the players, I find it highly irrational to impose an age restriction. If the CSM is a democratic representation of the player base, let it be a democracy for EVERYONE.
Omg.. dont ban me because of communism!
ZOMG Communism! |
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.23 02:34:00 -
[143]
I'll be recording the names of everyone that thinks there should be an age limit.
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Psychotic Penguin
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.23 04:22:00 -
[144]
____________________________________________________ Reality is for those who have no imagination. |
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