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Sundogg
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Posted - 2008.09.30 12:22:00 -
[1]
So,
I've been browsing the forums a good bit lately, collecting scraps of "rumour" info about the midas expansion and it occurs to me that this may well be the only ship released in the upcoming expansion. As a pure miner / industrialist I'm disappointed. For the most part I just don't see this ship as being a major boost to industry.
Is it not time miners got a new / better / solo mining ship? Like a capital mining ship with more strips, more durability, more cargo space, drone space, etc etc.
Any other MINERS our there NOT looking for a mini Rorq, and want something better?
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.09.30 12:38:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 30/09/2008 12:38:31 If they give miners ship that mines say 100% more solo, people will mine 100% more, the price of ore will drop to 50% of the current value, break the economy and miners won't earn any more anyway.
They're not going to make a better solo mining ship again, they finished that one off with the hulk. (and barges / exhumers were only invented because it was silly that the best mining ship in the game was a battleship :p )
It is possible there will be both an Orca and a mini-freighter like vessel in Midas. |
adriaans
Amarr Ankaa.
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Posted - 2008.09.30 14:37:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 30/09/2008 12:38:31 If they give miners ship that mines say 100% more solo, people will mine 100% more, the price of ore will drop to 50% of the current value, break the economy and miners won't earn any more anyway.
this can't happen due to how the economics works in eve (hint: insurance as well as other things) -sig-
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs
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Posted - 2008.09.30 15:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: adriaans
Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 30/09/2008 12:38:31 If they give miners ship that mines say 100% more solo, people will mine 100% more, the price of ore will drop to 50% of the current value, break the economy and miners won't earn any more anyway.
this can't happen due to how the economics works in eve (hint: insurance as well as other things)
It won't happen in PURE numbers, because if the caps/floors you point to. However, the VALUE of the ore will drop, causing just more inflation, so the true value mined/hour will still be about the same. And the devs have stated that they are happy with the solo potential of the Hulk, and don't feel there needs to be any changes in the solo mining rates. They are focusing on more encouragement for team mining operations, so any higher yield comes in the form of teamwork. This will both be suited to the potential two new ships metioned (the Orca, because of the bonus to gang-links, and capital tractor, and the mini-freightor, allowing more miners, and fewer haulers.) |
Alpha Dorn
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Posted - 2008.09.30 15:46:00 -
[5]
I agree.
What is needed is not more strip miners on a single ship, but ore compression and better/more specific command ability over what is already available in high-sec. Ore prices are fine where they are, and just hitting extra rocks per cycle is overkill. CCP has made it known that they're not happy with, or never really envisioned jet can mining, but that's what folks did to help accommodate fleet mining ops. It works, so people did it.
It's time for a ship like this in high-sec since, currently, the easiest way to get command and link bonuses is to fly out in a battlecruiser. But with a BC, other than the bonuses itself, you get nothing. That's where ore compression would come in: To cut down on the amount of haulers needed.
I'd rather work as a team as opposed to just enabling more macromining.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: adriaans
Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 30/09/2008 12:38:31 If they give miners ship that mines say 100% more solo, people will mine 100% more, the price of ore will drop to 50% of the current value, break the economy and miners won't earn any more anyway.
this can't happen due to how the economics works in eve (hint: insurance as well as other things)
True to an extent, but that's what I was talking about breaking the economy. If the price of minerals do drop that low ships start to get destroyed simply for insurance injecting more isk into the economy and driving inflation (of non minerals based items). T1 ships right on insurance cost and with all the extra isk that will get injected other things will become a lot more expensive.
Given the deregulation that has happened as trit approached the previous cap, you may find that insurance gets reduced/removed if the reverse were to happen. More likely, they would simply not introduce such new flows of ore into the system.
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Jonak
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:10:00 -
[7]
I'd like more info on this Midas stuff. This last addition to the game, Empyrean Age, did nothing for me since I'm not into the combat aspect of the game.
I liked the things that where discussed in the last EON concerning new ways and things to mine. I hope that some of those things would be implemented in the next iteration of the game.
And some soilid Orca news is always welcome.
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KAELA MENSHA
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Posted - 2008.09.30 18:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
It is possible there will be both an Orca and a mini-freighter like vessel in Midas.
Don't bet on it Information will be forthcoming in the near future on the Orca, however I will reiterate what we have said publically before which is that one of its primary roles we are set upon is that it will serve to fill the gap between the industrial and the freighter and have cargo capacity geared towards that.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.10.01 03:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA
Originally by: Lord Fitz
It is possible there will be both an Orca and a mini-freighter like vessel in Midas.
Don't bet on it Information will be forthcoming in the near future on the Orca, however I will reiterate what we have said publically before which is that one of its primary roles we are set upon is that it will serve to fill the gap between the industrial and the freighter and have cargo capacity geared towards that.
Not betting on anything, just marking it as a crystal ball possibility.
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Typheonic
Gallente Ri'Fainu
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Posted - 2008.10.01 13:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 30/09/2008 12:38:31 They're not going to make a better solo mining ship again, they finished that one off with the hulk. (and barges / exhumers were only invented because it was silly that the best mining ship in the game was a battleship :p )
It is possible there will be both an Orca and a mini-freighter like vessel in Midas.
Interesting. I wonder if you could cite were it was said that the development of mining vessels would end with the Hulk.
I tend to agree with Sundogg in that the current stack of mining ships available are not up to the task. Over the past several patches combat has been refined. New ships and modules added to increase the lethality of combat vessels have been added in almost every instance. During that same period we've been left with the current stack of mining ships that are out classed and outdated.
If a capital sized vessel with more yield is unlikely, then perhaps a class of ships better equipped to deal with the rigors of modern combat situations we see in EVE. Miners need a ship with actual tanking ability. Something that can mount a battlecruiser sized tank and output the yield of say a retriever using strip miners.
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Lubomir Penev
Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.01 14:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Typheonic Miners need a ship with actual tanking ability. Something that can mount a battlecruiser sized tank and output the yield of say a retriever using strip miners.
Or you could learn to fit your Hulk. (hint : better tank than most BCs) -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/ |
IVeige
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Posted - 2008.10.01 15:29:00 -
[12]
Well dont know if we will get something better.
So far seems will only get a orca, and some kind of industrial. Hopefully there is more in that expansion for us...
Because lets face it, those ships will be sold for billions... putting them away for any regular miners who just want to mine in a new ship, something else than the same hulk again and again..
Maybe those changes about asteroids belts will come in that expansion...
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.01 16:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Typheonic
If a capital sized vessel with more yield is unlikely, then perhaps a class of ships better equipped to deal with the rigors of modern combat situations we see in EVE. Miners need a ship with actual tanking ability. Something that can mount a battlecruiser sized tank and output the yield of say a retriever using strip miners.
You can use battleships, if you really need the tank.
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Typheonic
Gallente Ri'Fainu
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Posted - 2008.10.01 18:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Originally by: Typheonic Miners need a ship with actual tanking ability. Something that can mount a battlecruiser sized tank and output the yield of say a retriever using strip miners.
Or you could learn to fit your Hulk. (hint : better tank than most Bcs)
Hmm, care to share a tech II based fit? I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here. I've personally flown several fits, and while effective against specific NPC's those tanks could not survive versus a PvP fit enemy.
Originally by: Tasko Pal You can use battleships, if you really need the tank.
Indeed, but it would be more valuable, and likely more attractive to miners to get a new ship that uses strip miners with a better tank and loadout than the current array of barges. It is also somewhat difficult to mine ice in a battleship.
Again I am not suggesting additional yield or more solo-ability. I am just suggesting a better level of survivability than the current array of barges and exhumers offer.
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vikari
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.10.02 13:30:00 -
[15]
ok serious lets look at what limits mining right now.
Hauling, obviously the 38k or so cargo capacity you can get out of an industrial sucks for mining ops, a mini frieghter or/and orca will be perfect to fill the roll.
Mining bonus, the whole current commandship part of eve is sucking at this point. The cost to performance isn't worth it, it's easier to simply use a BC and do the extra training so you can mount 3 or so gang assist modules. The orca could possibly help in this area, though i think it should be able to mount at least 2 modules by default.
Low sec mining, low sec was designed for the lawless. It is ment to be dangerous, and have the highest rewards. CCP needs to keep it that way, meaning screw the idea of solo mining it. If you want to be suicidal thats on you, but mining isn't ment for PVP. Never was, and never will mix with it. If you want to mine safely in low sec or even null sec then you should be required to have a defense fleet. It makes sense. How can you possibly think we need a miner that can hold up in pvp? If were miners we shouldn't be in combat areas. You don't see some guy trying to mine in the middle of war zone in real life. If eve is going to reflect reality even on a small scale, then mining isn't going to be found in combat zones undefended, or defended by the miners themselves.
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.10.02 14:52:00 -
[16]
Its pretty simple, use the Mack haul, add mids/lows and extra rig slot, and you have nice "retriever" that can maybe tank long to survive a attack... Maybe ;)
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Typheonic
Gallente Ri'Fainu
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Posted - 2008.10.03 12:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: vikari ok serious lets look at what limits mining right now.
Hauling, obviously the 38k or so cargo capacity you can get out of an industrial sucks for mining ops, a mini frieghter or/and orca will be perfect to fill the roll.
Mining bonus, the whole current commandship part of eve is sucking at this point. The cost to performance isn't worth it, it's easier to simply use a BC and do the extra training so you can mount 3 or so gang assist modules. The orca could possibly help in this area, though i think it should be able to mount at least 2 modules by default.
I agree for the most part on these points. We can definitely hope the Orca is shapped into something to fill the niche you outlined.
Originally by: vikari Low sec mining, low sec was designed for the lawless. It is ment to be dangerous, and have the highest rewards. CCP needs to keep it that way, meaning screw the idea of solo mining it. If you want to be suicidal thats on you, but mining isn't ment for PVP. Never was, and never will mix with it. If you want to mine safely in low sec or even null sec then you should be required to have a defense fleet. It makes sense. How can you possibly think we need a miner that can hold up in pvp? If were miners we shouldn't be in combat areas. You don't see some guy trying to mine in the middle of war zone in real life. If eve is going to reflect reality even on a small scale, then mining isn't going to be found in combat zones undefended, or defended by the miners themselves.
I would argue that any new tougher mining vessel(s) would not be intended to solo mine in dangerous areas. Instead the intention is to give the defenders of a mining operation time to deal with aggressors.
As it stands now I know from experience that I can easily kill one if not two Hulks in a low-sec mining operation with any of my combat ships T1 cruiser on up as a solo aggressor. Depending on the situation and the defender composition I may be able to cause even more damage. Those first kills would be before ECM can be applied to me. Before remote repairing of the Hulks could kick in, and before I can be engage and destroyed by defenders. The only reason I can and have done this is because the resilience of a mining ship hovers somewhere between soggy paper bag and wet newspaper.
Another point that could be argued is that partially because of the lack of resilience in the current line of mining ships you need 2+ defenders per miner to somewhat ensure their safety. This becomes an even stronger deterrent from ever mining in low-sec because the mining operation could never be profitable enough to justify the manpower involved. In good 0.0 areas this equation changes somewhat, but not drastically.
Bottom line is that even though miners are not really ment to be involved with front line PvP that does not prevent our exposure to frontline PvP ships and attackers. Since the introduction of the Exhumers PvP ships have gained an expanded arsenal, much better defenses, and additional lethality. It does not seem unreasonable to ask for bit of a buff to the defensive options available to a miner even at the cost of some yield.
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loki gallach
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Posted - 2008.10.03 13:43:00 -
[18]
Edited by: loki gallach on 03/10/2008 13:44:32
Originally by: IVeige Well dont know if we will get something better.
So far seems will only get a orca, and some kind of industrial. Hopefully there is more in that expansion for us...
Because lets face it, those ships will be sold for billions... putting them away for any regular miners who just want to mine in a new ship, something else than the same hulk again and again..
Maybe those changes about asteroids belts will come in that expansion...
At the moment, finding those belts is a logistic pain in the butt. 1 small frigate type vessel to find it. Maybe several jumps before you succeed. Then the long trip back for mining barge/hauler. And you cant put rigged ships in cargo
Wheres that high sec RORQUAL when you need it
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Onastiel Silverwyrm
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Posted - 2008.10.03 14:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: IVeige
Because lets face it, those ships will be sold for billions... putting them away for any regular miners who just want to mine in a new ship,
Well of course it well sell for big bucks... when it is first released. You can now find Rorqies for under 2B without looking too hard. Give it a couple months and I am sure they will be reasonable.
But you are not going to be mining in the orca anyhow... just compressing and giving out skill bonus
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W3370Pi4
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.03 16:55:00 -
[20]
well i don't think CCP will introduce any kind of new mining ship or cap mining ship until the eve population double ; maybe ambulation will double the number of people playing eve i don't know . they need to be very very careful with miners as some players empty belts with 5 hulks .
Some experienced players are asking for Capital mining ships ( never saw the opinion of CCP on that matter ) some say it will be a problem if such a thing is implemented into the game ( i agree with them theres no need for such a ship atm maybe after ambulation ) .
On the other hand CCP doesn't really care about people with a single character since they are making money when people play with multiple characters ( Power of 2 ect ) .
At the moment all my hopes reside in the ambulation impact in this game,if more people play this game i think they will need to consider adding more mining ships into this game .
I have only have one character i would be glad to be able to solo mine in 0.0 how ever i don't know what CCP think about that .
CCP is always bragging about balance but i don't see how multiples characters helps ..... unless the logic is to get everybody to get two account to have a fair fight... but for me this is all very wrong. ********************************************** Vitreous Mercoxit ! What else ***************************************** |
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.03 20:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Onastiel Silverwyrm
Originally by: IVeige
Because lets face it, those ships will be sold for billions... putting them away for any regular miners who just want to mine in a new ship,
Well of course it well sell for big bucks... when it is first released. You can now find Rorqies for under 2B without looking too hard. Give it a couple months and I am sure they will be reasonable.
But you are not going to be mining in the orca anyhow... just compressing and giving out skill bonus
If it carries drones, someone will mine with the orca. |
Bo Kantrel
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Posted - 2008.10.04 03:05:00 -
[22]
That would bring some life back to mining drones.
The mining amount isn't too bad, but the cargo capacity could be enhanced. How about an new skill to add more space to the Mining Barges or Exhumers. Something like Spatial Engineering, adds X percentage increased cargo capacity per level.
How about a enhanced cargohold?? Make it something like a 37% cargo capacity boost.
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs
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Posted - 2008.10.04 07:55:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bo Kantrel That would bring some life back to mining drones.
The mining amount isn't too bad, but the cargo capacity could be enhanced. How about an new skill to add more space to the Mining Barges or Exhumers. Something like Spatial Engineering, adds X percentage increased cargo capacity per level.
How about a enhanced cargohold?? Make it something like a 37% cargo capacity boost.
A rigged hulk can hold quite a bit of cargo, as much as lower tiered haulers, so I'm not sure there needs to be any change here. |
elric gallach
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Posted - 2008.10.04 14:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Clansworth
Originally by: Bo Kantrel That would bring some life back to mining drones.
The mining amount isn't too bad, but the cargo capacity could be enhanced. How about an new skill to add more space to the Mining Barges or Exhumers. Something like Spatial Engineering, adds X percentage increased cargo capacity per level.
How about a enhanced cargohold?? Make it something like a 37% cargo capacity boost.
A rigged hulk can hold quite a bit of cargo, as much as lower tiered haulers, so I'm not sure there needs to be any change here.
correct :- what is needed is mobile docking station, I.E a rorqual |
Coros
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.10.04 20:21:00 -
[25]
If there ever would be high sec rorqual I would right away start mining like with 8 hulks.. But of course everyone else would do that too so the prices would go down faster than russian moonrocket exploded in the sixties...
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elric gallach
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Posted - 2008.10.05 13:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Coros If there ever would be high sec rorqual I would right away start mining like with 8 hulks.. But of course everyone else would do that too so the prices would go down faster than russian moonrocket exploded in the sixties...
Yes for about a day. rofl
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Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.10.16 06:30:00 -
[27]
TBH, Id like to see mining rewards on mining agents other than the ORE agents. When you consider time spent in a mining mission compared to a combat mission your 4 times beter off doing the combat. Ive heard it said the lp and isk is so low in mining missions because there is no danger.... Ive never lost a ship in a mission.. ive come close a few times... but now that im in a Golem, and use a baddon to support it on another account, combat missions arent any more dangerous than a mining mission..
Danger vs Boredom.. A good combat mission, say Angel Extraviganza. I dont even take my support ship along on it anymore. once youve done it a few times you know the routine, its just a matter of killing everything, loot, salvage and move on. takes quite a while, and you get good rewards, in the isk payed out, bountys, loot to sell or melt for mins, and the salvage to make rigs and sell, or even sell the salvage outright... now, mining a gas cloud takes about the same amount of time as doing AE, looting and salvaging it, BUT, it seems like SO much longer, because you do nothing but sit there, occasionally haul the gas to the station. the reward? umm... a small amount of isk and smaller amount of lp... most certainly NOT worth the time spent doing it (IMO) Now.. if you added in some rewards for miners.. "worth" getting the lp for from that specific agent, without increasing the lp or isk, theyd be worth doing. rewards? start small, maybe crystals that last longer. a Mod for a low slot that increases range (meaning you d have to take out a MLU to use it) I can think of many rewards... High end? Faction Hulk.. exactly the same as a regular hulk with a cool paint job. maybe better resists to shield or something similar (gets them into 0.0 where they die more often) None of that would increase yield, but would sure be nice to parade around in, or have the option of using, and would get more people into mining missions. I haven't heard anything about it for this expansion... its supposed to be for industrialists, and I am sure they will add cool new things, like the Orca, but, as stated, I'd sure like to see something to work for from those mining agents.
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Klutte
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Posted - 2008.10.16 12:17:00 -
[28]
will there be any change to t1 loot drop from missions? that would be a huge boost to miners. |
Breaker77
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Posted - 2008.10.16 14:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: W3370Pi4 Some experienced players are asking for Capital mining ships
Chribba beat CCP to it
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steelfist alderon
Caldari Trinity Council Pack of the Forgotten
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Posted - 2008.10.17 01:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kalderion Mar TBH, Id like to see mining rewards on mining agents other than the ORE agents. When you consider time spent in a mining mission compared to a combat mission your 4 times beter off doing the combat.
accually mining agents are now fighting agents thanks to the multi lvl missions i believe they need to change that besides the mining agent should have somehting like 90% mining missions not 10% even if 85% is hualing some players just dont want to fight at all (and yes im a big carebear)
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