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Tuncan Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.10.03 08:32:00 - [31] hmm maybe anti-fighter's =) :P actually i think they should have a "assault" role. They can have some bonuses related with "penetration(ignoring armor or shield ), thus giving them the opportunity to assault Starbases and big ships. + They can be the only ships that can pass thru enemy POS shields,Assaulting inside, even shutting down the POS shields. OR Each Assault ship can have a different EW option which assaults and LOCKS down an ability. For example, we can give Wolf to shut down the webbing and accelerating modules,we can give caldari AF's to shut down all missile systems. All in close range of course. I think it would be fun,i really love to see LOADS of AF's in space =)
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.10.03 09:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Tuncan hmm maybe anti-fighter's =) :P actually i think they should have a "assault" role. They can have some bonuses related with "penetration(ignoring armor or shield ), thus giving them the opportunity to assault Starbases and big ships. + They can be the only ships that can pass thru enemy POS shields,Assaulting inside, even shutting down the POS shields. OR Each Assault ship can have a different EW option which assaults and LOCKS down an ability. For example, we can give Wolf to shut down the webbing and accelerating modules,we can give caldari AF's to shut down all missile systems. All in close range of course. I think it would be fun,i really love to see LOADS of AF's in space =) No assault means MOAR DPS!!!111oneone i feel that Assault ships mean that they should be able to assault ... ships, and for that they need more DPS and i whould like to see better damage bonuses on em (drone damage bonus for Ishkur).
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.03 10:11:00 - [33] Originally by: Burn Mac No assault means MOAR DPS!!!111oneone i feel that Assault ships mean that they should be able to assault ... ships, and for that they need more DPS and i whould like to see better damage bonuses on em (drone damage bonus for Ishkur). Never going to happen. The absolute minimum for a dps ship is a BC or HAC. Anything with less damage output simply isn't worth using in that role, and even then, in larger fleets the BCs/HACs are shooting at hostile support, while only the battleships have enough dps to be worth shooting at the primary. So give up and look for a new role, BC/HAC level damage on a frigate hull just isn't going to happen.
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.10.03 11:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Burn Mac No assault means MOAR DPS!!!111oneone i feel that Assault ships mean that they should be able to assault ... ships, and for that they need more DPS and i whould like to see better damage bonuses on em (drone damage bonus for Ishkur). Never going to happen. The absolute minimum for a dps ship is a BC or HAC. Anything with less damage output simply isn't worth using in that role, and even then, in larger fleets the BCs/HACs are shooting at hostile support, while only the battleships have enough dps to be worth shooting at the primary. So give up and look for a new role, BC/HAC level damage on a frigate hull just isn't going to happen. It doesnt need BC/HAC level damage just around 3-400 dps.
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.03 11:21:00 - [35] Originally by: Burn Mac It doesnt need BC/HAC level damage just around 3-400 dps. Enyo breaks 300 DPS right now (given all to 5, but still) It still sucks. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.10.03 11:35:00 - [36] There fun ships with a small niche roles. At 10mil a pop there not to extreme either for T2 prices. After they fix there core ship stats these ships will be alot better.
Fafnir Drake Gallente Boob Heads Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:04:00 - [37] Edited by: Fafnir Drake on 03/10/2008 15:05:10 Merin Ryskin, take a step back. Not trying to insult you personally or anything. Relax a bit. First off, I'm not asking for BC/HAC DPS. I'm asking for for heavy cruiser DPS. (Not HAC, heavy cruiser. Important difference) The goal here isn't unrealisitic. It's not to make it some uber-ship that is outdamaging every other ship in a fleet fight. It's to make it a tougher ship for small gangs/solo. An half-arsed role I can think of is "warp stabilization". AKA, AFs get a special targeted module that disrupts warp disruption spheres. Be it warp disrupt probed, anchor'd bubbles, or a HIC. People can think of plenty of roles for an AF, the question is finding a useful one. So, please: Rather then get bent of a shape over this, come up with some ideas. Can't be worse then mine, can they? ------ "Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure."
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:23:00 - [38] Originally by: Fafnir Drake Edited by: Fafnir Drake on 03/10/2008 15:05:10 Merin Ryskin, take a step back. Not trying to insult you personally or anything. Relax a bit. First off, I'm not asking for BC/HAC DPS. I'm asking for for heavy cruiser DPS. (Not HAC, heavy cruiser. Important difference) The goal here isn't unrealisitic. It's not to make it some uber-ship that is outdamaging every other ship in a fleet fight. It's to make it a tougher ship for small gangs/solo. An half-arsed role I can think of is "warp stabilization". AKA, AFs get a special targeted module that disrupts warp disruption spheres. Be it warp disrupt probed, anchor'd bubbles, or a HIC. People can think of plenty of roles for an AF, the question is finding a useful one. So, please: Rather then get bent of a shape over this, come up with some ideas. Can't be worse then mine, can they? how about giving them the tank and nearly the firepower of somehting along the lines of thorax/rupture and then reduce their mass and boost their speed to more normal frig levels. this is quite similar to how HACs fit in with battlecruisers, and that seems to work out well, though many HACs are faster than their T1 counterparts, i see this as broken for AFs. maybe the same speed or a slight reduction. Even with these changes, they would still die horribly to any cruiser wise enuff to fit a neut, but would be far more useful than they are now. --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!
Taco Raptorian The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:34:00 - [39] It becomes hard if you just balance around tank and gank because then you don't have alot of parameters to play with. This often results in one ship type being better in most cases so the only reason to fly the others are cosmetic ones. More defined roles or unique module bonuses could at least stir things up a little bit when choosing ships. AF's are fun to fly but I agree they need the mass reduction that probably will come with the future patch. ____________________________ A smile reflected in endless space.
Psym0n Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Fafnir Drake Harpy: Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range, and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and 7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Tracking Speed per level At current it is this. Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Thermal Resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic Resistance per level Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level Change the built in bonus for an additional damage bonus and its workable, wouldnt add tracking tbh, thats gallente territory.
Shinta Kobi Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:02:00 - [41] It seems that Hawks are also kind of worthless as well. My alt, maxed on almost every missile skill, seems to do little against most.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:55:00 - [42] Originally by: Kadoes Khan Originally by: Grimpak actually, it's only important in solo situations, where you need to bring your warpscram or other stuff. I would prefer to keep the slot layout, give it a 5th turret and more grid and cpu. people have success with the retri, just not in solo situations. I don't disagree it can be effective when someone else has a point on your target but the problem is why do you have this assault frigate there in your fleet? Although honestly if you give it a 5th turret with cpu/grid to fit properly I think that would be some pretty serious DPS from an AF(250+ DPS @_@). that's the point I always imagined the retri as a mini-geddon: lots of highs and lows, and the absolute need of other ships to do any kind of support due to the lack of medslots. sure it doesn't have the dronebay of one, but it has 5 lows in where you can slap either a 3 HS gank setup or a nifty tank for a frigate. I would also add a 10% tracking bonus instead of a 7.5% btw, but that would make a scorch pulse setup (or even beam setup) a bit overkill for anything smaller than a cruiser. and to answer to your question, I just say that there are people that like raw dps --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Nikea Tiber Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.04 01:13:00 - [43] C'mon Grim, the retri is the micro-geddonÖ A fifth turret on the retribution would be sick, I can already get 250 dps out of a four turret retri, I'd love the extra 60ish dps. AF's need some love. A great first step would be moving the frigate -> AF mass to be more in line with cruiser -> HAC mass and maybe tweaking the inertia modifier a bit. Changing the resists to T2 assault resists to free up the 4th bonus would be a nice step. In terms of a role dps makes sense. Sure, it is a frigate, but what is your point? You don't fly frigates in fleet warfare, you fly them in small gang combat. The "you might as well not bring them because they aren't enough dps" argument is weak. Why would you bring a HAC over a tier 2 BC in any case? The tier 2 BC can gank harder (unless it is a myrm, but that is a seprate argument). People could fly AF's for the same reason they fly HAC's over BC's or BS's. The AF doesn't have any mobility advantage over a cruiser like a HAC does over a BC or BS, and it has one extra bonus rather than two. Correcting the mobility issue goes further than changing mass. In order to fit for a dps role an AF is going to be unable to effectively engage outside of web range (and retain gank capacity). Any webbed frigate is toast. The proposed changes to webbers help survivability within web range, though AF's will still be hard pressed to evade medium gun tracking. To aid in survivability adding a web resistance bonus (as has been proposed many times) would be very helpful. In addition, boosting afterburners in general would also help. in closing: change mass add T2 assault resists as base boost afterburners I may edit this for clarity later as my girlfriend just arrived and I'd rather pay attention to her. ___________________ Eventually, we all get outgunned or outnumbered.
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.10.04 03:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Taco Raptorian It becomes hard if you just balance around tank and gank because then you don't have alot of parameters to play with. This often results in one ship type being better in most cases so the only reason to fly the others are cosmetic ones. More defined roles or unique module bonuses could at least stir things up a little bit when choosing ships. AF's are fun to fly but I agree they need the mass reduction that probably will come with the future patch. last i checked the fact they they are ASSAULT ships would mean that they should field lots of tank and gank, with little else that they can do... thats kinda the idea... hard to do or not, you have to completely change them, as well as the name to give them a different role...
Vanthropy	Posted - 2008.10.04 05:10:00 - [45] no, they don't need hella tonna tank and gank to make cruisers ghay to fly.. they just need to be what they are, cruisers in frigate hulls just like hacs are battlecruisers in cruiser hulls.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.04 07:25:00 - [46] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 04/10/2008 07:27:04 Ok, here's the problem with giving AFs cruiser-level dps and the dps role: Cruisers are not dps ships. T1 cruisers are simply not a valid choice in the current PvP metagame, unless you don't have the skills/ISK to fly a ship that doesn't suck. They have the fatal combination of paper-thin tank, mediocre dps, and direct competition from a class that is better in every way (BCs). AFs with cruiser DPS would just be another failed ship concept, while they would be better than they currently are, they still wouldn't be worth flying. To get them to be valid choices for the dps role, you'd have to give them at least HAC-level dps, and that would instantly make HACs and BCs obsolete. The fundamental problem is CCP decided to make two ship classes that are essentially "bigger, nastier frigate". Interceptors improve on the things that frigates are good at (speed and tackle), while assault frigates improve on the things frigates suck at (damage and tank). This is just a competition the assault frigate can not win, the interceptor will always be the better choice for anything you would want a frigate for. So until CCP decides to give assault frigates a unique role besides "generally better frigate", they will continue to be useless comedy ships.
Vanthropy	Posted - 2008.10.04 08:10:00 - [47] Edited by: Vanthropy on 04/10/2008 08:10:41 I think we all agree it's gonna be a hard hard fix, not to mention, as Merin says all the time the game in inherently flawed in that the pvp metagame will always be based purely around gank/tank. speed/mobility is an after thought when it comes to getting real shit accomplished nothing that can be done about that though is there
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.04 08:13:00 - [48] Edited by: Strill on 04/10/2008 08:13:47 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Cruisers are not dps ships. What do you mean? A Vexor can do 527 DPS with drones, neutron IIs, faction antimatter, and no magstabs. That kind of DPS would certainly make assault frigates more than useful.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.04 08:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 04/10/2008 08:13:47 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Cruisers are not dps ships. What do you mean? A Vexor can do 527 DPS with drones, neutron IIs, faction antimatter, and no magstabs. That kind of DPS would certainly make assault frigates more than useful. No, it wouldn't. A Vexor can only do that dps at point-blank range, while a Brutix will do *850 dps* at the same range. This is why the Brutix is a moderately useful dps ship (though it suffers from lack of range), while the Vexor is newbie trash.
White Ronin Gallente NeuralCore LLP	Posted - 2008.10.04 13:49:00 - [50] Make them immune to webs.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.10.04 14:08:00 - [51] I fly these ships and most of you only EFT them. They have core stat problems like high mass and missing orginal ship bonus like a Jag doesn't have the rifter tracking bonus. Its a T2 frig so it shouldn't "pawn" cruisers and should be T2 model of its T1 variant.
Fafnir Drake Gallente Boob Heads Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.04 20:28:00 - [52] Originally by: Corstaad I fly these ships and most of you only EFT them. They have core stat problems like high mass and missing orginal ship bonus like a Jag doesn't have the rifter tracking bonus. Its a T2 frig so it shouldn't "pawn" cruisers and should be T2 model of its T1 variant. I've flown the ship. :) Not just EFT'd it. For a while it was my main low-sec PvP ship. I'd gotten a few nice kills with it too. Hehe, once got an Arazu (pilot was a complete muppet). Still, in the end, I found cruisers tend to be more effective. : / And cheaper. ------ "Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure."
Rudy Metallo The Bastards	Posted - 2008.10.04 20:43:00 - [53] Posting in a post which has been said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and... And still the changes haven't been made. Hopefully speed nerf will help. --
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:14:00 - [54] Originally by: Rudy Metallo Hopefully speed nerf will help. It won't. Read my earlier posts in this thread. Until CCP finds a role for AFs besides "bigger, nastier frigate", they will continue to be useless ships. Originally by: White Ronin Make them immune to webs. Won't change anything, because it doesn't give them a role. Interceptors already have 100% immunity to webs, thanks to tackling outside 15km, so they will continue to be the useful ship, while AFs continue to be trash.
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.10.05 05:01:00 - [55] actually, fixing the core stats as well as giving them cruiser level gank and tank would make them very good in my eyes. despite cruisers not being amazing, imagine that rupture packed into a rifter? would you want to fly THAT? add in the web nerf and you have a ship that, while not being the best, would be at least usable outside of comedy. cruiser bron, frigate agility. maybe give them a range bonus innate to the class or something.... other than that, i cant think of ANY role they could possibly fill... so those of you that claim this, why not suggest a role? --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!
Vanthropy	Posted - 2008.10.05 06:45:00 - [56] several roles have been suggested within this very thread.. however crappy they may be.. also many many other threads exist with many other pointless role suggestions.. to me however 300ish dps in a frig hull with inherent resists is the best option
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.05 07:58:00 - [57] Originally by: Vanthropy several roles have been suggested within this very thread.. however crappy they may be.. also many many other threads exist with many other pointless role suggestions.. to me however 300ish dps in a frig hull with inherent resists is the best option tbh, the only role that seems to be available for AF's is anti-Ewar. however, I also agree that 300dps in a frig hull is also a very good option. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.05 08:02:00 - [58] Originally by: Vanthropy several roles have been suggested within this very thread.. however crappy they may be.. also many many other threads exist with many other pointless role suggestions.. to me however 300ish dps in a frig hull with inherent resists is the best option But that's what they already do.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.05 08:04:00 - [59] Originally by: Strill Originally by: Vanthropy several roles have been suggested within this very thread.. however crappy they may be.. also many many other threads exist with many other pointless role suggestions.. to me however 300ish dps in a frig hull with inherent resists is the best option But that's what they already do. only a very few (2, 3?) do that. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.10.05 08:09:00 - [60] Marauder-esq bonus? Maybe the 100% one would be a bit OTT, but that's an easy way of making them into small DPS ships... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'

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