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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.30 03:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but i'm going to play devil's advocate here:
A way to actively train skills.
god i love this game, it's so beautiful. Internet spaceships couldn't get better, but a way to actively train skills would seriously be the icing on the cake. The only qualm i have ever had with this game is the fact that i cannot do anything to make a skill train faster. Who loses with this? More active players are better, less active aren't.
Make activities that train a skill, such as a mini-game, a test maybe. Make these cost isk so you still have to go out into the world, and do everything.
Maybe add in whenever you're doing an activity that directly relates to your current skill, it amplifies the training time. This would further implore you to go out into the world.
Thoughts/Criticisms? |
Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
13
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Posted - 2012.03.30 04:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Such a system existed for a very brief time early in the game's history. In-game activities had the effect of modestly accelerating the rate at which certain skills were increased. The feature was removed from the game at least in part because it was being exploited: people used automated means to repeat the various activities that augmented skill growth. Therein lies concern number one. Is it possible to implement a system like this so that it is "bot-proof"?
The second concern that comes to mind has to do with one of the original game design concepts (and perhaps another reason for the original feature's quick removal). One of the goals behind the use of "real-time" training rates was to create an environment in which casual players could keep pace with "power gamers" in accumulating skills. A player with the time and motivation to play hours daily did not have the ability to quickly level up to a significant advantage over a weekend warrior. Interestingly, implementation of a system that avoided that issue in the game's early days ultimately led to the opposite issue in today's mature game: newer players, no matter how hard they play, can not catch up to the skill levels of veteran players.
The second concern could probably be addressed through the mechanics of how skills are augmented through in-game activities. One way would be to limit the amount of time in any given day/week/month that activities augment skill growth, or diminish the effectiveness of the activity on skill growth as the activity continues over an extended time. Another might be to diminish the effectiveness of the activity on sklll growth as the skill approaches higher levels.
A third concern, also coming from original game design, and one that is of popular current debate, is the notion that EVE is intended to be a long-term game, not a game of instant gratification. I have mixed feelings on this one... I buy into the long-term game concept, but I also recognize the value of enhancing the game in ways that help promote continued growth in EVE's subscriber base, as that is crucial to the success and survival of the game.
Regardless, skill system issues pose significant challenge to our Development team.
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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.30 05:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Although i cannot speak for programmers, I think any botting program which requires you to do very specific in-game activities would (pardon my language) a ***** and a half to code, if not impossible depending on the system created.
For your second concern, i think you proved the point by saying that vet players have gotten so good they simply cannot catch up.
Regarding the third concern, even a BIG system. Say something that if done efficiently, it would ramp up training time by 4x or even 5x. I do believe the figure on training every skill is about 23 years. Even with a 5x active multiplier added, the game would still take over 4 years to fully complete. That's not even including the fact that they add more skills per year than you can keep up with! TL;DR even if they enacted a giant system, very few players would ever "complete" the game.
This is a plus to the company as well as the players. Do you even know how many more people would play this game if you could actively train skills? It boggles my mind. Then they could take all that money to make the game better, more content faster, etc. |
Pyrosomniac
VC Academy
12
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Posted - 2012.03.30 09:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
I believe that changing the current system, or adding to it, would be a MASSIVE undertaking and would require hundreds of man hours of thought and consideration before you even hit the drawing boards!
I don't think the idea should go and die though. I'd still like to see a skill category that can only be trained through player action. Connections would be an example that in real life would come through your actions, rather than through a book. Diplomacy as well. |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Exhale.
161
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Posted - 2012.03.30 10:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
dont be an idiot. it's skill system is the main thing that makes eve better than the dregs of online games wike WOW ect. |
Ildryn
X Inc.
30
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Posted - 2012.03.30 10:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
The reason vets have a lead is because they started earlier or stayed with it. It does not take long for a new player to specialize and have some kind of accomplishment.
I maxed out my sub-caps...a new player with the correct mindset could come along and fly a taranis just as well as i can in a couple months.
BTW there was no accelerated learning or lack of learning skills when i started. i got my sp back for the learning skills but would still like to have the double learning time new players get.....for free. |
Greg Valanti
Looney Clones
26
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Posted - 2012.03.30 11:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Azemar wrote:Although i cannot speak for programmers, I think any botting program which requires you to do very specific in-game activities would (pardon my language) be a ***** and a half to code, if not impossible depending on the system created. .
Current bots are incredibly sophisticated and already do very specific in-game activities. That's what makes them a problem. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
382
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Posted - 2012.03.30 15:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Azemar wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned before
......
Thoughts/Criticisms?
Yes. Look up the last several times it's been mentioned and try to address the many, many arguments against if you're going to post an idea. That's my criticism. |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.30 17:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:dont be an idiot. it's skill system is the main thing that makes eve better than the dregs of online games wike WOW ect.
I never doubted that, but as i said in my OP and my second post, a system that would (overall) increase training by up to 5x assuming 24/7 activity would still make the game about 4.3 years to max out skills, not even taking into consideration how many skills would be added over that period.
This wouldn't impact the games stance at all. Most mmo's you can get the best stuff in literally 1-2 months, but 23 years is a little too much.
TL;DR I have a ship that will take a while to train, I am willing to spend time and isk to training it faster. Give that to me CCP. |
Vito Antonio
State War Academy Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2012.03.30 20:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Im for active skill training bonus. Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.
Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem. |
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FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Chained Reactions
13
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Posted - 2012.03.30 20:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
If CCP would get 1 monthly subscription paid for free every time some idiot thinks they discovered the solution to Eve without bothering to search or google it....... CCP would be happy.
This is not new, nor news, nor intellectually new or unique.
Eve is fine the way it is. Any other way and most people like me would leave. I have a semi busy real life and Eve allows me to be a productive worker, citizen, husband, cat owner / herder, friend, and human being. Please do not impose something every other MMO already has and that is the primary reason I do not play any of them. |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.30 21:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
FireT wrote:If CCP would get 1 monthly subscription paid for free every time some idiot thinks they discovered the solution to Eve without bothering to search or google it....... CCP would be happy.
This is not new, nor news, nor intellectually new or unique.
Eve is fine the way it is. Any other way and most people like me would leave. I have a semi busy real life and Eve allows me to be a productive worker, citizen, husband, cat owner / herder, friend, and human being. Please do not impose something every other MMO already has and that is the primary reason I do not play any of them.
I never once claimed it to be new. Please cite me if i did. And as i said about 3 times now, this change would not in any way change the stance CCP has set for the game. Most mmo's take about 1-2 months on even mediocre time to basically beat the game. Even with a giant active system in place, it would still take 4-5 years (playing 24/7, meaning still like 10 years) to train everything. Are you so set in your ways you cannot see the win-win of this?
There is no lose situation. It's an economic "free lunch". Older players are still better and can stay better easily. This just makes the game friendlier to people willing to put in more time. |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.30 21:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vito Antonio wrote:Im for active skill training bonus. Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.
Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.
I would like this as well, but not necessarily the entire system. It would tremendously benefit players who are willing to put actual money into the game, and leave those who aren't in the dust. But i agree, a system like that would be definitely doable. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2012.03.30 22:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Azemar wrote:[quote=Jack Miton]TL;DR I have a ship that will take a while to train, I am willing to spend time and isk to training it faster. Give that to me CCP.
Buy a character with the skills you want. See, it's already in the game.
This will never happen anyway. I would much rather be playing EVE than grinding boring activities for skills, which is what you are forcing upon us all by effectively saying you will train at 1/5 speed unless you grind these activities. No thanks, grindquest is ------> way |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.30 23:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Azemar wrote:[quote=Jack Miton]TL;DR I have a ship that will take a while to train, I am willing to spend time and isk to training it faster. Give that to me CCP. Buy a character with the skills you want. See, it's already in the game. This will never happen anyway. I would much rather be playing EVE than grinding boring activities for skills, which is what you are forcing upon us all by effectively saying you will train at 1/5 speed unless you grind these activities. No thanks, grindquest is ------> way
You're the one that develops the "well now everyone is doing 1/5th the speed" mentality. You are still passively training all the skills, but you have the option to do these activities to further benefit you. CCP has to understand that as long as they have this exact setup, they are limiting their player base. As long as it takes 23+ years to train everything (and there's nothing you can do about it) it will stay nearly where it is right now. And these activities, if done properly, would not constitute grinding. You would have multiple different activities, and also the passive multiplier i mentioned while doing those activities. That kind of system would make you go out and do more.
What could possibly be wrong with a system like this? |
Dibblerette
The Phantom Regiment The House Of Cards.
48
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Posted - 2012.03.31 01:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Azemar wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Azemar wrote:[quote=Jack Miton]TL;DR I have a ship that will take a while to train, I am willing to spend time and isk to training it faster. Give that to me CCP. Buy a character with the skills you want. See, it's already in the game. This will never happen anyway. I would much rather be playing EVE than grinding boring activities for skills, which is what you are forcing upon us all by effectively saying you will train at 1/5 speed unless you grind these activities. No thanks, grindquest is ------> way You're the one that develops the "well now everyone is doing 1/5th the speed" mentality. You are still passively training all the skills, but you have the option to do these activities to further benefit you. CCP has to understand that as long as they have this exact setup, they are limiting their player base. As long as it takes 23+ years to train everything (and there's nothing you can do about it) it will stay nearly where it is right now. And these activities, if done properly, would not constitute grinding. You would have multiple different activities, and also the passive multiplier i mentioned while doing those activities. That kind of system would make you go out and do more. What could possibly be wrong with a system like this?
What could people hate about something that basically puts them behind if they don't do a certain activity almost constantly? I don't think the activity thing would ever happen, but the idea of just generally increasing the speed of the skills is interesting. 5x is too much though, as I'm pretty sure a 2 month old pilot could then sit in a mother ship. Also, think what this would do the the existing character market. They'd basically be worth 1/5th of their value. If anything was changed about the skill system, I think a little non-transferable bonus unallocated SP could be given to each character or account on the anniversary of its creation, or birthday. |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.31 02:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
It wouldn't put them behind because everyone is in the same boat. And the character values would not change because the standards would become universal, instead of specific in a given area.
Again i'm just using 5x as a reference point. If i was to really sit down and create a system i would have to look at almost every single statistic in the game. How it would affect isk inflation, player activity, sales, difficulty of the game in PvE, etc etc etc. The list goes on forever. I would never say this is an easy undertaking, i simply believe it's one that is necessary for the longevity of the game. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
382
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Posted - 2012.03.31 02:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Azemar wrote:It wouldn't put them behind because everyone is in the same boat. And the character values would not change because the standards would become universal, instead of specific in a given area.
Again i'm just using 5x as a reference point. If i was to really sit down and create a system i would have to look at almost every single statistic in the game. How it would affect isk inflation, player activity, sales, difficulty of the game in PvE, etc etc etc. The list goes on forever. I would never say this is an easy undertaking, i simply believe it's one that is necessary for the longevity of the game.
You still haven't looked up any of the older threads, have you? |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.31 03:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
I have. The issue is never settled in any of them. The logic still points to the active training and someone has yet to present an objective, clear cut, and well-formed argument besides "well we're oldies and we hate it" against this issue. |
stoicfaux
900
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Posted - 2012.03.31 04:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Azemar wrote:A more active player deserves to be better or have the potential to be. That's the basics of gameplay and gaming marketing. Eh, you're thinking about it the wrong way. In traditional MMOs, raising your skills makes your character tougher, e.g. lower level players have trouble hitting a higher level character. Generally speaking, skills in Eve are a means to an end. They don't actually make your character tougher, they just give you more options or help make you more efficient at something.
In Eve, a more active player doesn't deserve to be better. Instead, an Eve player is "better" by becoming better at doing things. Meaning, tactics, organization, and brains make you a better player. Since there are no levels in Eve, being Level 100 in Eve won't save your hauler from a Level 1 player in a basic frigate.
As for raising your skills by active gameplay, it's redundant. Everyone already trains as if they were online 24 hours a day. How can you improve on that?
Dammit, if CCP hadn't nerfed the Comet's blinking light, I could now be flying around in Jita in my "Whaaaaaambulance!"
Goon Tears: -á25% Alcohol by Volume |
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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.31 04:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Azemar wrote:A more active player deserves to be better or have the potential to be. That's the basics of gameplay and gaming marketing. Eh, you're thinking about it the wrong way. In traditional MMOs, raising your skills makes your character tougher, e.g. lower level players have trouble hitting a higher level character. Generally speaking, skills in Eve are a means to an end. They don't actually make your character tougher, they just give you more options or help make you more efficient at something. In Eve, a more active player doesn't deserve to be better. Instead, an Eve player is "better" by becoming better at doing things. Meaning, tactics, organization, and brains make you a better player. Since there are no levels in Eve, being Level 100 in Eve won't save your hauler from a Level 1 player in a basic frigate. As for raising your skills by active gameplay, it's redundant. Everyone already trains as if they were online 24 hours a day. How can you improve on that?
Expand upon what you mean. Your skills directly make you better at the game. Reduced repair systems duration, increased resistances, armor hp, mining amount, turret damage, etc. And you're thinking about it in the wrong way. We will always be training 24/7, but it is slow. We should have a way to actively train, whether through time dedication or maybe increased passives via isk. Either way, it doesn't hurt anyone. All it hurts is that "Eve is the most prestigious mmorpg and we're better than everyone else" mentality. And it's ignorant to think that applying a system like this makes eve even remotely close to all the other mmos. |
Maximillian Dragonard
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
157
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Posted - 2012.03.31 09:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
My take on this.....
"I have more time to play that the other guy and I want that to be even more of an advantage than isk"
Sorry, but if anything remotely similar to what you want were to be added to the game, the cancellation of accounts would make Incarna look like a blip on the radar. I'm almost 50 years old, and be damned if I will play a game that requires me to grind to keep up. Your idea of it being optional is horseshit to be quite frank. Reactivated in response to the change in direction.....-á |
AureoBroker
Natural Inventions Solyaris Chtonium
11
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Posted - 2012.03.31 12:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Can do. No higher than 5%, though. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5845
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Posted - 2012.03.31 14:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
No. That is quite literally the last thing the game needs. It was tried and rejected because of the awful gameplay and idiotic behaviour it generated.
You are already being rewarded for being active, and in a way that makes the whole thing impervious to grinding and botting. Above all, the current system lets you actually play the game rather than worry about some silly (and ultimately irrelevant) GÇ£advancementGÇ¥ or SP accumulation.
Quote:Either way, it doesn't hurt anyone. Yes it does. It hurts everyone since it doesn't solve any kind of problem and provides people with incentives not to play the game, but rather to engage in meaningless repetition and time-sinking. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.31 17:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Maximillian Dragonard wrote:My take on this.....
"I have more time to play that the other guy and I want that to be even more of an advantage than isk"
Sorry, but if anything remotely similar to what you want were to be added to the game, the cancellation of accounts would make Incarna look like a blip on the radar. I'm almost 50 years old, and be damned if I will play a game that requires me to grind to keep up. Your idea of it being optional is horseshit to be quite frank.
I can see where you would derive that from, but i really do not have that much time either. Nonetheless, this is an mmorpg. A unique one yes, but if i am willing to put the time and isk into something, i should be able to train something faster. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
2
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Posted - 2012.03.31 18:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Azemar wrote:And it's ignorant to think that applying a system like this makes eve even remotely close to all the other mmos. No, it is not. And yes, it does.
Patience est m+¿re de la sagesse. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5849
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 18:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
Azemar wrote:Nonetheless, this is an mmorpg. A unique one yes, but if i am willing to put the time and isk into something, i should be able to train something faster. So? One has nothing to do with the other.
This is a non-grinding, no-level, class-less, passive-ability, real-time progression game, so you shouldn't be able to train things faster no matter what you do. If you want to spend time and ISK, you can do so, and it has its own set of rewards (knowledge and experience), but all of that rightly lies with you the player rather than with your character. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Korsiri
Mousetrap Building Inc.
21
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Posted - 2012.03.31 19:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
It all sounds good in theory but in practice it simply leads to botting - afk macroing - repetitive gameplay. I prefer Eve's version because it is balanced, equitable and relaxing! I don't have to constantly worry I'm not "doing something" because I can train my skills in real time, offline or on-line.
increasing the rate skills gain via active use reminds me far too much of UO's power hour, which didn't work either. |
Dirk Culliford
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.03.31 20:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
The reason why it takes decades to train all the skills is....because you're not supposed to get all of them!!!!
Get your hands away from our EVE thx |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Chained Reactions
14
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Posted - 2012.03.31 20:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
OP is an idiot (not just an insult but a fact). You keep ignoring one key issue here and I will write it in blod so you might see it better:
CCP TRIED THIS AND REMOVED IT.
YOU ARE NOT SMARTER THAN THE ENTIRE CCP STAFF AND HALF THE FORUM POINTING OUT YOUR FLAWS.
Have a great weekend. |
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Tazarak theDeceiver
Hooded Underworld Guys
18
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Posted - 2012.04.01 01:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
cool idea... but my one thing would be WASD instead.... probably could get thousands of people to try Eve if they could intuitively fly their damn ship |
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
155
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Posted - 2012.04.01 01:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
So to get max training speed u would have to play 24h /day or bot. If u want ur grinding to = sp just buy characters with isk. |
Clementina
The Scope
61
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Posted - 2012.04.01 04:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
The skill system as constituted is what has made Eve what it is. Basically it has kept the developers honest insomuch as if they needed to add content, they had to add to the game, rather than add extra grinding. The skill system as currently constituted is also a good business proposition, it keeps people subscribed even if they don't have time to play in a given month, because even if they can't grind, they can still log in to change skills. CCP should definitely keep it |
Recknin
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.04.02 04:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Azemar wrote: It's an economic "free lunch". lol. |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
139
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Posted - 2012.04.02 20:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
I've been playing since about 2008. I am glad that I have nowhere near all skills. The thing is that CCP doesn't want ANYONE to ever be able to do everything. That's kind of the whole plan. 4 years is far too soon for skills to be maxed. I can understand the frustration, but I for one like the fact that I can do whatever I choose, and I don't have to worry about it hampering my skill progression. |
Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
37
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Posted - 2012.04.02 21:38:00 -
[36] - Quote
Nothing about this actually enhances gameplay. All this does is add another reason/level of grinding, it doesn't make ANYTHING about eve MORE interesting. Stop with these garbage threads full of terrible ideas because you're too damn stupid to use evemon and create a skill plan.
herp derp im gonna beat eve by training all demz skills.
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Lost Greybeard
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
4
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Posted - 2012.04.03 00:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
Well, they have been trying to get people out into areas with actual combat. They could give you a 5% training speed increase any time you're in a 0.4 system or lower that has had x number of ship deaths in the last hour, with various caveats like you have to actually be in space and uncloaked and so on.
That would actually be nice, since it would cancel out the fact that my combat clones use cheaper training implants. |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.04.03 02:59:00 -
[38] - Quote
Outz Xacto wrote:Nothing about this actually enhances gameplay. All this does is add another reason/level of grinding, it doesn't make ANYTHING about eve MORE interesting. Stop with these garbage threads full of terrible ideas because you're too damn stupid to use evemon and create a skill plan.
herp derp im gonna beat eve by training all demz skills.
You've in fact added to your own idiocy but completely misunderstanding the thread. It has nothing to do with creating a skill plan. It's this simple: I want to use this ship, and i'm willing to donate time and isk to do it so i don't have to wait an excess of 2 months. Give me that ability.
It's that cut and dry.
Lost Greybeard wrote:Well, they have been trying to get people out into areas with actual combat. They could give you a 5% training speed increase any time you're in a 0.4 system or lower that has had x number of ship deaths in the last hour, with various caveats like you have to actually be in space and uncloaked and so on. That would actually be nice, since it would cancel out the fact that my combat clones use cheaper training implants.
Exactly. Create a system that favors action, but also the active player. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3223
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Posted - 2012.04.03 08:42:00 -
[39] - Quote
Azemar wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but i'm going to play devil's advocate here:
A way to actively train skills.
god i love this game, it's so beautiful. Internet spaceships couldn't get better, but a way to actively train skills would seriously be the icing on the cake. The only qualm i have ever had with this game is the fact that i cannot do anything to make a skill train faster. Who loses with this? More active players are better, less active aren't.
Make activities that train a skill, such as a mini-game, a test maybe. Make these cost isk so you still have to go out into the world, and do everything.
Maybe add in whenever you're doing an activity that directly relates to your current skill, it amplifies the training time. This would further implore you to go out into the world.
Thoughts/Criticisms?
You've found one of the only MMOs in existence that doesn't mandate level grinding, and you want to add level grinding to it?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Chained Reactions
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 13:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Azemar wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but i'm going to play devil's advocate here:
A way to actively train skills.
god i love this game, it's so beautiful. Internet spaceships couldn't get better, but a way to actively train skills would seriously be the icing on the cake. The only qualm i have ever had with this game is the fact that i cannot do anything to make a skill train faster. Who loses with this? More active players are better, less active aren't.
Make activities that train a skill, such as a mini-game, a test maybe. Make these cost isk so you still have to go out into the world, and do everything.
Maybe add in whenever you're doing an activity that directly relates to your current skill, it amplifies the training time. This would further implore you to go out into the world.
Thoughts/Criticisms? You've found one of the only MMOs in existence that doesn't mandate level grinding, and you want to add level grinding to it?
No it is worse. And this is why I am questioning his intelligence. He wishes to retain the automatic skill training BUT wants it to switch to active skill training when he uses certain modules / skills. It is what I call the instant gratification ****.
Then again this is only marginally better than the idiot that had requested to remove skills all together.
I am just curious why he wants the skill training here when other MMO's have the grind he so desperately needs. He could always leave. |
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Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy Against ALL Authorities
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 13:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ah... the good 'ol days of sitting in a 1.0 system afk-shooting veldspar, fun times! |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
382
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Azemar wrote:It's this simple: I want to use this ship, and i'm willing to donate time and isk to do it so i don't have to wait an excess of 2 months. Give me that ability.
It's that cut and dry.
Good to know we've reached the crux.
Two answers.
1) If you really want to fly that ship, just buy a damn character. That's a great way to use your time/isk to reach your goal (perhaps while your main trains?).
2) No. Why should you get any more instant gratification than is already available? A big part of why I love EVE is that I don't have to grind. Once you introduce an "optional" grind, it instantly becomes mandatory just to remain competitive. You've already been told this, but here it is again: not grinding is part of what makes EVE great to so many of us. There's no reason to break it. And no, your whims don't count. |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Azemar wrote:It's this simple: I want to use this ship, and i'm willing to donate time and isk to do it so i don't have to wait an excess of 2 months. Give me that ability.
It's that cut and dry. Good to know we've reached the crux. Two answers. 1) If you really want to fly that ship, just buy a damn character. That's a great way to use your time/isk to reach your goal (perhaps while your main trains?). 2) No. Why should you get any more instant gratification than is already available? A big part of why I love EVE is that I don't have to grind. Once you introduce an "optional" grind, it instantly becomes mandatory just to remain competitive. You've already been told this, but here it is again: not grinding is part of what makes EVE great to so many of us. There's no reason to break it. And no, your whims don't count.
I will admit. Now that i've seen the evidence and had the experience to know that would happen, it's a bad idea. It's 100% true that optional grinding turns into mandatory grinding. But okay, there goes ONE idea to enact this system. We can't enact it by increasing training times by grinding. So let's enact a system that simply costs ISK. Much like one mentioned on this forum post:
Vito Antonio wrote:Im for active skill training bonus. Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.
Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.
The figures would need a lot of tuning, but I think the premise is sound. |
Malaxy
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
You keep saying that the reason it's bad is that it takes too long to train everything. I take issue with your assertion that you should be able to train everything. From the few different MMOs I've played while they died when you can "max out" the world becomes stale and the game less interesting.
There is nothing saying you can't max out the parts of the game you enjoy but doing everything just sounds like trying to satisfy a compulsion. If having fun means being done, why bother playing? |
Edhelbrien
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:58:00 -
[45] - Quote
Malaxy wrote:You keep saying that the reason it's bad is that it takes too long to train everything. I take issue with your assertion that you should be able to train everything. From the few different MMOs I've played while they died when you can "max out" the world becomes stale and the game less interesting.
There is nothing saying you can't max out the parts of the game you enjoy but doing everything just sounds like trying to satisfy a compulsion. If having fun means being done, why bother playing?
Have to say I agree with this. I play Eve very casually but one of the reasons I do enjoy it is that this game is so unlike that of the archetypal "wow-clone". I play quite a few other MMOs like that and most have the concept of the "rush to end game". I have the suspicion the OP is falling into that trap. I'm no expert when it comes to Eve but to me, skills are a means to an end, not the end in itself.
That's what I love about this is that there is no end game - unless achieving one's own personal or corporate goals could be considered that.
|
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
Malaxy wrote:You keep saying that the reason it's bad is that it takes too long to train everything. I take issue with your assertion that you should be able to train everything. From the few different MMOs I've played while they died when you can "max out" the world becomes stale and the game less interesting.
There is nothing saying you can't max out the parts of the game you enjoy but doing everything just sounds like trying to satisfy a compulsion. If having fun means being done, why bother playing?
Again i'll reiterate that I don't have a system down to a science. This is simply an idea. I am not vouching (nor have i in this thread) for the ability to max everything in a certain time period. I agree you should never be able to max everything out, maybe in a lifetime i guess?
All I am saying is that there should be a way for me to actively train a skill using isk or time (or both) without meta like buying a character.
I'll give an example: Say someone lives in null sec and wants to begin mining without depending on others (solo). This isn't possible (without extreme inconvenience) unless you have a hulk. That person (assuming no prior skill) is forced to wait a minimum of about a month and a half. They should be able to make that go faster.
|
Hakaimono
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 03:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
Being an effective frig pilot doesn't require that much time in training. Getting under their guns makes the years of work rendered useless. Also make friends with vets and get advice from them and find a area of expertise rather than raising some omni-character that can do everything.. That alone will expedite skill training. |
Reina DeLaMuerte
Forgotten Gold
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
Daddy I want a goose who lays golden eggs and I WANT IT NOW!
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Bodessia
Saiph Industries SRS.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:29:00 -
[49] - Quote
What he is saying is; I want to spend rl money so i can fly a pwn boat instantly and not be stuck flying T1 ships for X amount of time.
Also, noone is going to want to train ALL the skills in eve. We have multiple characters that train for specific goals at the same time.
if you want active skill training, go play a different mmo. Just the fact that hardly anyone will like this, is enough reason to never implement this, no logical argument required. |
Neus
Mine ALL the Ore Wonder Kids
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
Azemar wrote:[quote=Malaxy] Say someone lives in null sec and wants to begin mining without depending on others (solo). This isn't possible (without extreme inconvenience) unless you have a hulk. That person (assuming no prior skill) is forced to wait a minimum of about a month and a half. They should be able to make that go faster.
The problem isn't the game; the problem lies inside your mind...have you ever thought that patience for some and making long term goals is apart of the very dynamic of the game? A complete opposite in your game style, which I don't fault you for, but if you truly don't understand that having patience can be equally enjoyable to some as it can be for others who choose to play a game which has a final conquest or the "I have achieved the best I can until the next expansion."
I am very curious why your so weirdly passionate about this one aspect of the game your willing to spend days as an individual arguing with others who have selected this game for a very specific reason; which so happens to be the very reason you despise the game. Is the real problem Eve and a simply whiny attitude about a portion of the game or something far larger your not willing to deal with in real life?
Take a minute and absorbed what has been fairly shared with you. It isn't about you not making sense as much as it is about you arguing to a wall of people who enjoy the game as it is...And I would have to agree with them! |
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Drevlon Rashon
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:03:00 -
[51] - Quote
I don't really agree with having an activity based skill point bonus myself. I also don't agree with a flat isk cost for increasing SP gain.
If anything whatever system could be used I don't think it should give more than a 10% total bonus to skill point gain.
I actually have thought about this many times and while I would like to not have to train for months to get into a ship I want to fly and fly it just as bonused as anyone else. I'd hate to see someone come along, play 24/7 for a month and he surpass me in bonuses either. So I understand both side of the coin.
What would be interesting to see is a slot 6-10 learning implant 1% 2% 3% 4% 5% boost to skill points earned. I don't think that would be hard to implement at all and it would level the playing field. Perhaps make it a reward for a not so easy epic arc to limit the flow of them into the world. Better yet how about making the "slave" implant sets and all the other bonus sets of implants actually give +5 bonuses. Or you could release better implants. +6 - +10 or something like that. Stat's themselves don't give a player an unfair advantage as they don't affect damage or other game play mechanics. You also don't get an unfair advantage as long as they are "available" to everyone. It would just make training skills easier with higher stats.
For that matter I would rather see remaps available just a tad bit more often. This could be your "active" activity. An epic arc to unlock a skill remap that is available every 60 days after full completion of the arc? Then you could min max a little more often. |
beor oranes
Nex Exercitus Raiden.
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:03:00 -
[52] - Quote
You want to be able to train every skill in the game really fast right so you can 'finish' Eve?
I'll come back to that in a second.
One of the reasons that drew me to Eve was that it wasn't just a matter of playing 24/7 and leveling up and getting to the end-game content. My character progressed just as fast as anyone else (depending on attributes) regardless of whether I could put in an hour a week or fifty hours a week. I travel a lot for work and I have periods of up to six months where I can't log in for more than a few minutes at a time, yet I am keeping up with my friends who started at the same time in terms of SP which means I can fly the same stuff as them when I can play (they are better PvP'ers due to more practice, damn them). If there was a system like you suggest where they could skill faster than me because they play more then I probably wouldn't have stuck around for as long as I have, because I would be so far behind so many of my friends.
I figured out early on that one character was never going to be able to train for all the skills I want in a reasonable time so I started alts and trained them in area's that my main doesn't have any SP in. So I can do and use other things and ships in the game which with just one character would have taken me years to get into. So across the characters I can fly every races ships, do mining, industy, etc.
The idea of SP being linked to activity and/or isk in whatever way its suggested to implement will benefit two types of player; the one with no life (activity) and the veteran (having lots of isk). It would almost punish those who pay the same sub but only get to play a few hours a week. Someone would figure out a way to Power Level characters for either in-game or out of game isk, most likely in the form of a bot. This would mess up the character market for one.
Back to my original question: You want to be able to train every skill in the game really fast right so you can 'finish' Eve? Lets take a moment to ask what would happen if you actually managed to get every skill in Eve trained up, what would you do then? Quit? Make another character and do it again? RMT the character and make a few grand? SP and getting every skill to 5 isn't Eve's end-game, its a sandbox (so in theory it could be the end-game for you if that's what you want to make it, but you get my point), you don't get a credit roll when you have every skill trained up (well I don't know this for sure but its safe to assume you don't).
On one level I agree, there are times when I don't have work on and I have nothing else to do during the day when my friends are at work and I play Eve a lot. It would be nice to be able to 'boost' my SP when I have the time to play but on every other level I know it would be bad for Eve.
I would liken this idea to the idea of introducing arena's for PvP in highsec. One level it would be good but on every other level it would be bad.
Keep Eve unique, lets not try and make it into every other MMO out there. |
beor oranes
Nex Exercitus Raiden.
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
I forgot to add this from my friend Malcanis:
Quote:Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
I think this is appropriate in terms of this discussion. |
Flakey Foont
Republic University Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:54:00 -
[54] - Quote
We need Home Runs in football!
Oh wait it is a different game. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3279
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:54:00 -
[55] - Quote
beor oranes wrote:I forgot to add this from my friend Malcanis: Quote:Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. I think this is appropriate in terms of this discussion.
Get your ass back in corp Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Doctor Grugon
GRUMPS RESEARCH TEAM Army of Dark Shadows
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 22:24:00 -
[56] - Quote
As it is hinted at above, there is already a method to increase the skill training rate. Using implants and also Neural Remaps. Using them together can be very effective in reducing training time for a skill by increasing the SP/hour rate. I recently did a Neural Remap on an alt and shortened the training time for a skill by 3 days. If you want MAX SP/hour rate get a set of +5 implants. Use a JC for dangerous places. and or long term skills.
Eve's skill system IMHO is far superior to an skill grinding methods. EVE already has a few grinding mini-games. One is called Ratting and the other is Mission running. Both grind sec status and that is the ONLY way to increase your sec status.
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Immortis Vexx
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 23:52:00 -
[57] - Quote
OP I feel that you are partially missing the point of the skill queue. By my perception, the idea is not that "you can complete the EVE game in 23 years." The idea was to create a system that you SHOULDN'T POSSIBLY be able to complete. Ever. Its to force you to specialize in a given area to master a specific ship or set of skills. Its the same reason that once you board a ship 30%+ of your skill points immediately lose purpose. I hop in an Amarr ship and all my shield skills pretty much are worthless along with all those Caldari ships I can fly. Yes, it would be lovely to have an active way to train skills (in fact, it was one of the reasons I LOVED Ultima Online) but keeping a static skill queue levels the playing field for everyone.
It is easy for newer players to fall into the trap of, "I will never catch up to a vet." While this is true it is almost irrelevant for reasons mentioned previously by other posters. If you specialize in one type of ship
Just my two cents
Vexx |
General Disarray Soikutsu
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 04:12:00 -
[58] - Quote
Azemar wrote:Although i cannot speak for programmers, I think any botting program which requires you to do very specific in-game activities would (pardon my language) be a ***** and a half to code, if not impossible depending on the system created.
It's easier than you think. Damn exploiters... |
Erdren Merat
Alpha Arms and Manufacturing BROTHERHOOD OF DESTRUCTION
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.17 02:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
The issue is that it takes too long to train EVERY skill in the game. This is true yes, it dose take a very long time to train EVERY skill in the game.
However why do you need every skill in the game? You should be in a corp. that supports what you are trying to do.
If you want to pvp you should join a pvp corp. that has the support of indy characters supplying the ships and ammo and other supplies you and the other pvpers need. So now you do not need any of the indy skills.
Next you need to fill a role in the fleet of that pvp corp. Lets say you are going to be their electronic warfare pilot. You only need to train up to that ship and the skills to make that ship the best. On average this takes about a week to two weeks to get into the T1 version and then about a month to get into the T2 version and about three or four months to get into the T3
Yes there are the few options ship wise that take well over 100 days to train not including the fit, but most of the stuff needed for that you will have gotten while flying lesser ships over time, and those ships cost a lot of ISK too. You work your way up to those ships while playing the game. Or you buy a character some one trained for you. (I frown on this
If you are so willing to spend time and ISK/Money rather consider having multiple accounts; one that dose indy one that is trained for pvp/pve combat, and one that dose what ever else there is to do. Then when each one reaches a point you like them to be at, (ie. Indy in a Hulk for mining and Orca for ore hauling and freighter for trucking, ect.), you merge it to one of the other accounts. In the end you have one account with three characters; two of which are specialized in a role that you may only use once or twice a week and then your main you continue to train and play most of the time.
Rather a better option than making training faster or active is to give the option to remap your skill points. Not on a 24 hour CD or one week CD but on a one or two time a year base and charge 1 PLEX. True this dose not speed up how fast you train but it helps new players that may not have had any idea what they were doing or how long it would actually take to train things and went off on a tangent trying to train everything. (Me) It would also allow a player that has been doing indy for the last two years not have to basically start almost from scratch if they want to go into combat
This dose not break the game in any way and can not be exploited because of the long CD on being able to do it and the fact that you still had to train all those SP in the first place. The only thing this may effect would be the value of a character being sold. The value would no longer be what was trained rather how many skill points it had, but what was trained would still be valid. |
Death Toll007
Fleet of Doom Psychotic Tendencies.
38
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 05:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
-1 and disagree with OP.
The passive skill training is unique to the game, and even attracts players without a lot of time to play.
They sort of covered this when the spoke briefly of allowing PLEX to buy SP. That would be exactly what you are looking for, but the isk lies in the hands of the vets, or those who spend time at the game.
What seperates one player from another in this game is not their SP, but their ability to make isk. All well and good to be able to fly any ship in the game, but only the skills relevant to the active ship are being used. Thus your ability to acquire/replace ships and modules is more important than SP.
To take it a step further... what good is it to have a toon spec'ed out for super caps if you cannot afford one?
CCP's approach rewards active players, no doubt about it.
-DT |
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7403
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 06:47:00 -
[61] - Quote
No.
Hell no.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Alice Saki
Analog Folk SRS.
86
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 08:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
No to Grinding! http://tinyurl.com/RifterDeath My Rifter Adventure in Null |
Josef Djugashvilis
82
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 10:06:00 -
[63] - Quote
Vito Antonio wrote:Im for active skill training bonus. Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.
Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.
So I buy/sell plex to train more quickly.
Hmm wouldn't that be 'Pay To Win'? You want fries with that? |
Lord Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:Such a system existed for a very brief time early in the game's history. In-game activities had the effect of modestly accelerating the rate at which certain skills were increased. The feature was removed from the game at least in part because it was being exploited: people used automated means to repeat the various activities that augmented skill growth. Therein lies concern number one. Is it possible to implement a system like this so that it is "bot-proof"?
That's a stupid reason to remove something. By that logic you'd have to remove 90% of the game. Ratting can be botted and so can mining etc. I'm still against the removal just like I was when it originally happened. The chances of CCP changing their minds at this point are pretty much nonexistent though. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7403
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 13:23:00 -
[65] - Quote
Lord Dravius wrote:Dr Caymus wrote:Such a system existed for a very brief time early in the game's history. In-game activities had the effect of modestly accelerating the rate at which certain skills were increased. The feature was removed from the game at least in part because it was being exploited: people used automated means to repeat the various activities that augmented skill growth. Therein lies concern number one. Is it possible to implement a system like this so that it is "bot-proof"?
That's a stupid reason to remove something. By that logic you'd have to remove 90% of the game. Ratting can be botted and so can mining etc. I'm still against the removal just like I was when it originally happened. The chances of CCP changing their minds at this point are pretty much nonexistent though. It was part of the reason for removal, the other reasons you'll find dotted throughout this thread.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Golden Duck
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 21:06:00 -
[66] - Quote
There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game.. BUT, paying for increase SP is a very very bad idea, so is increase training time of skills you use (to easy to abuse). The only good solution to "active" skill training that i see is with some kind of missions / daily activity / weekly activity. Example :something that takes like 1h max to do, and you gain xx amount of hours on your current training. How much and what you need to do needs to be balanced by ccp. This can also only apply to players with less than lets say 10 mil SP. after u reach 10 mil SP you cant get any bonus to your skill training. This will give new players better motivation to play the game. and as they play they learn more and more. Bigger chance they stay in the game after they have tried it. Which also give better income for ccp.
For the older players that are against this because they dont have "time" to do these things, "grind" as they call it. Is it fair that veteran players can get more ISK and get same amount of training without even playing the game?? Veteran players can make 1 billion or more every day. how long do you think it will take for a new player to make "good" ISK?? New players need some love to keep them in the game, and give them something to do. Doing missions all day long sucks, and dont get much money from it. so even if they got the skill for certain ships and items they cant always afford it. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
441
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 22:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
Golden Duck wrote:There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game..
Why?
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Golden Duck
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 05:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Golden Duck wrote:There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game.. Why? Read my post, i explain why...!! |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
441
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 06:05:00 -
[69] - Quote
Golden Duck wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Golden Duck wrote:There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game.. Why? Read my post, i explain why...!!
No, you actually don't. You make some allusion to the idea that forcing new players to grind is somehow good for retention, but I sure as hell don't see the logic in that. So again: why exactly does EVE need active skill training? Lay it out, step by step. If you can make a solid case and answer any critiques, I'll cede the point. Until then, well, it's a missing premise to the rest of your argument. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 07:03:00 -
[70] - Quote
Vito Antonio wrote:Im for active skill training bonus. Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.
Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.
Speaking as someone who buys PLEX, I wish I could slap you through the internet. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
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Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 07:19:00 -
[71] - Quote
Eve doesn't have grinding?
Running missions is grinding.
Ratting in belts/anomolies is grinding.
Mining is grinding.
Eve has a serious amount of grinding already in it. Without it people would be soon flying reapers as the isk runs out. Why are so many people in this topic posting like it doesn't exist in this game? Do they even know the game being discussed? |
Golden Duck
Backwater Redux Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 08:32:00 -
[72] - Quote
Yeah, there are tons of grinding already. But older Veteran players dont see it as grinding since they can do it all so easy. And even IF there was some kind of active skill training implemented that gives u a few hours less skill training time each week by doing ..something.. doesn't force anyone to actually do it. But there should be something that rewards active players..
Veteran players like Zhilia Mann needs to open their eyes just a little bit, and think of the greater good of the game. In ALL other MMO'S new patches comes out, and older players that played since release might think its unfair since they worked hard to get the gear and items they got, because suddenly max level is raised and their current gear isn't worth much at all. But they do have a easier way to get the better gear since they already have some of the best gear.
So implementing a system that might increase some training time in the beginning of this game doesn't really affect older players at all. BUT it helps ALL new players to progress faster, and also will get more players to the game.
Why don't the veteran players come with a good explanation to why there shouldn't be a system that rewards activity and new players?? Because i haven't seen a single good argument from all the veteran players yet.
IF you are traveling around or work a lot and don't have much time to play, is it really fair that u get more ISK, and more skills than new players that play every day for many hours??? Shouldn't punish new players just because you cant play as much, its a stupid reason. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:01:00 -
[73] - Quote
Golden Duck wrote:Blanket statement about Veteran players.
As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:11:00 -
[74] - Quote
Halete wrote:Golden Duck wrote:Blanket statement about Veteran players. As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no.
Lying about the time spent in eve to justify a short two-worded opinion doesn't give any credibility whatsoever. Giving a rational reason might, but in that respect I think you've already shot your bolt. So: who's your main character? |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 09:17:00 -
[75] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote:Halete wrote:Golden Duck wrote:Blanket statement about Veteran players. As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no. Lying about the time spent in eve to justify a short two-worded opinion doesn't give any credibility whatsoever. Giving a rational reason might, but in that respect I think you've already shot your bolt. So: who's your main character?
Lying? Okay, that's grand.
I've previous posts in this thread and I also echo what other people are saying (that I do not wish to waste space by reposting), so it's hardly a two word opinion. You could at least put that much effort into looking before posting a response. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1452
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 10:07:00 -
[76] - Quote
Azemar wrote:
Again i'll reiterate that I don't have a system down to a science. This is simply an idea. I am not vouching (nor have i in this thread) for the ability to max everything in a certain time period. I agree you should never be able to max everything out, maybe in a lifetime i guess?
All I am saying is that there should be a way for me to actively train a skill using isk or time (or both) without meta like buying a character.
I'll give an example: Say someone lives in null sec and wants to begin mining without depending on others (solo). This isn't possible (without extreme inconvenience) unless you have a hulk. That person (assuming no prior skill) is forced to wait a minimum of about a month and a half. They should be able to make that go faster.
You want a way to spend Isk to train skills faster?
YOU GOT IT!
Ladies and Gentlemen, step right up, and BE AMAZED! Right here in your local Jita-Mart, we have exactly what you need!
Learning implants of all attributes and bonuses, ready for implantation through a simple do-it-yourself brain surgery kit. Prices are low, and your speed learning starts as soon as you pay. Get in that carrier faster with Jita-Mart brand Implants! Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 10:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
Orlacc
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 15:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
Elf game that way --------------------------------> |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
443
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:33:00 -
[79] - Quote
Golden Duck wrote:Veteran players like Zhilia Mann needs to open their eyes just a little bit, and think of the greater good of the game. In ALL other MMO'S new patches comes out, and older players that played since release might think its unfair since they worked hard to get the gear and items they got, because suddenly max level is raised and their current gear isn't worth much at all. But they do have a easier way to get the better gear since they already have some of the best gear.
So implementing a system that might increase some training time in the beginning of this game doesn't really affect older players at all. BUT it helps ALL new players to progress faster, and also will get more players to the game.
Why don't the veteran players come with a good explanation to why there shouldn't be a system that rewards activity and new players?? Because i haven't seen a single good argument from all the veteran players yet.
There's a lot in here: an ad hominem attack, a comparison to other games that in no way parallel EVE, and an attempt to shift the burden of proof. Oh, there's also an unfounded claim that faster new player progression is a way (or maybe the best way, or maybe the only way, it's unclear) to help EVE grow and thrive. It's not a very good showing. But I'm going to rise to the bait anyhow and at least address -- again -- why this is based on unsound premises. And I'll just go ahead and use this as a jumping off point:
Golden Duck wrote:IF you are traveling around or work a lot and don't have much time to play, is it really fair that u get more ISK, and more skills than new players that play every day for many hours??? Shouldn't punish new players just because you cant play as much, its a stupid reason.
As a new player, I had a pretty patchy play schedule. I worked -- a lot. I had to travel -- a lot. It's almost a relief to "only" be in law school now and have to time run my mouth on the forums and, you know, occasionally even play.
And do you know what kept me in the game? The fact that I didn't have to grind to keep up. EVE was the one and only game where I could set a skill and walk away for days at a time -- time after time -- without any major consequence. It didn't really matter that I couldn't play as much as I would have liked because my character was still training (albeit at a **** rate because I didn't exactly understand the consequences of starting attributes). I kept with EVE because training didn't involve grinding.
And does that mean I never had to grind anything? No, I never said that. When low sec mining/ratting is your major source of income, you're often short of ISK. And getting it was a grind. But skill training wasn't.
The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points. It has absolutely nothing to do with keeping new players down. If new players don't want to spend the time developing their own characters, there are plenty on market to do any job they might want. Grind the ISK (or buy it with PLEX for all I care). But if you do want to train up your own character, you can, and you can do it without feeling obligated to do activity x on a schedule of y per time period z.
That's why it's a bad idea. Ball's in your court. Make an actual argument for me, ok? |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1452
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:03:00 -
[80] - Quote
Halete wrote:Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado.
And I would respond with the fact that you can, fairly quickly catch up to the old players.
Just not all on one character.
Make a frigate specialist, and you can fly ALL frigates exactly as well as old players in 6 months or so. Make a separate cruiser specialist, and you'll be able to fly each race's cruisers perfectly with maybe 9 months training for the first race, then ~2 for each one after that. Battleships will take a little while, but only around a year for the first race and ~4 months for each after that. A perfect carrier pilot is doable in 18 months, with a perfect super pilot taking less than 2 months longer. A perfect miner or trader is dead easy by comparison at maybe 6 months and 6 weeks, respectively.
Now to me, this all sounds expensive and looks like it requires a fair amount of effort, so I'd say that it fits the bill for an active skill gain schema.
So, you can assemble, like Voltron, a collection of characters that makes you exactly as powerful as the oldest of characters, just not as versatile in some ways, but more versatile in other ways, since maybe you leave one character making money when the rest go off and do cool (read: expensive) things.
But then, specialization always comes up in these "debates" and even if I pointed out that this toon can fly a few ships significantly better than nonamium who recently finished training L5 spaceship command (the category, not the skill), I would likely be ignored by those zealots who have decided that your SP total actually limits what you can do in the game.
NB: All of the times above are 1st order estimates, based on my recollection of the training times of relevant l5 skills. Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
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Elsbeth Taron
Elsbeth Taron Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:00:00 -
[81] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote: The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points.
How does it eliminate the skill queue? I thought the topic was about speeding it up through active playing, not replacing it. Or have I lost track of this discussion? |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
445
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:50:00 -
[82] - Quote
Elsbeth Taron wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote: The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points.
How does it eliminate the skill queue? I thought the topic was about speeding it up through active playing, not replacing it. Or have I lost track of this discussion?
I never said anything about eliminating the skill queue. How did you manage to get that out of what I wrote? The aforementioned "unique selling point" is that you don't have to grind to keep up with your peers skill-wise. What did you think I was referring to? |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 05:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Halete wrote:Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado. And I would respond with the fact that you can, fairly quickly catch up to the old players...
Oh, I appreciate that whole-heartedly but obviously the active training supporters don't.
Halete is a frigate specialist. She has Frigate skills that stack up pretty well to characters many years her senior, despite only having around half a year of skill training, so I'm quite content.
In another I want to say five months, she'll able to fly every Frigate and T2 Frigate with no glaring skill holes.
I'm happy with the system. Currently undergoing a... change of look, just for the Vanquish the Devourer event. Say a word and your intestines will get acquainted with my teeth.-á |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1452
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 08:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
Halete wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Halete wrote:Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado. And I would respond with the fact that you can, fairly quickly catch up to the old players... Oh, I appreciate that whole-heartedly but obviously the active training supporters don't. Halete is a frigate specialist. She has Frigate skills that stack up pretty well to characters many years her senior, despite only having around half a year of skill training, so I'm quite content. In another I want to say five months, she'll able to fly every Frigate and T2 Frigate with no glaring skill holes. I'm happy with the system.
And I got that. I was trying to respond to your hypothetical active training zealot, not saying you were one.
But it is nice to know that my estimates (at least for the frigates) were within an order of magnitude of reality, depending on how focused your training on that toon is. Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 10:28:00 -
[85] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: But it is nice to know that my estimates (at least for the frigates) were within an order of magnitude of reality, depending on how focused your training on that toon is.
Aye! Sorry, I thought that was what you were doing, but I wanted to address the possibility that I was wrong.
Halete's training is focused mostly with about I want to say maybe 100,000> of skills in odd places.
That said, my implants aren't optimized, neither are my neural specs.
Currently undergoing a... change of look, just for the Vanquish the Devourer event. Say a word and your intestines will get acquainted with my teeth.-á |
Xuixien
Stoic Assembly Lines Trade Federation Alliance
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 21:11:00 -
[86] - Quote
A thousand times no. The day I have to log in constantly to "train my skills" in order to keep up is the day my sub does not get renewned. Rabble Rabble!! |
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 06:06:00 -
[87] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Elsbeth Taron wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote: The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points.
How does it eliminate the skill queue? I thought the topic was about speeding it up through active playing, not replacing it. Or have I lost track of this discussion? I never said anything about eliminating the skill queue. How did you manage to get that out of what I wrote? The aforementioned "unique selling point" is that you don't have to grind to keep up with your peers skill-wise. What did you think I was referring to? You didn't make clear to what you were referring. Now you have. |
Mark Munoz
5 Star Research University of Thoth
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 06:33:00 -
[88] - Quote
I have just started playing about two months ago now and I really dig the system. Granted there are times that I get frustrated and wish I could just drop $30 bucks and buy the crap I want and move one but then where's the fun? I suffer from always wanting to max things out and "beat" a game too but hey I attribute that to my playing games in an era where that was the point. You beat a game and moved on to the next one. There is something that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside when all the boxes are checked off. :)
That said I appreciate the approach of this game. I instead of thinking of it as a game, I attribute it more to real life. Just like real life I will NEVER know EVERYTHING. I will however get pretty specialized in a few areas. Just like in real life you need help directly or indirectly to get through life, you need the same support in this game. But just like in real life there are always things you wish you could do, luckily with this game you have alts.
Now I will say this because the game takes so long to really get doing effectively what you want to do I found myself just checking in long enough to change out skills and maybe running a few missions here and there. Now that I am 2 months old and have a fairly strong skill set I find myself playing more. I attribute most of that though to just the fear of dying and having to pay for ships. Just like in real life I don't take many risks with my in game character and like to play the safer side of things. That said I am really tempted to start an alt and have the personality be completely unlike my real life one. |
Hans Momaki
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 20:23:00 -
[89] - Quote
It's the same bullshit every freakin time someone mentions a " Active SP - Gain" on forums.
All this yada yada ppl arguing against for no reasonable reason at all besides that this would take their candy away.
A player with more SP is more powerful, just because he offers more versatility (which is an important factor),. There is no catch up mechanism. Period
The " Grindfest " Argument is based on the same. Older ppl would have to grind because they would risk losing their power (versatility) if they refuse to grind SP.
SO PLEASE CCP, DON'T TAKE MA CANDY AWAY!!!!!!!!!
Nuff said |
Tarrick Merdev
Mernaya Holdings
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 21:17:00 -
[90] - Quote
Hans Momaki wrote:It's the same bullshit every freakin time someone mentions a " Active SP - Gain" on forums.
All this yada yada ppl arguing against for no reasonable reason at all besides that this would take their candy away.
A player with more SP is more powerful, just because he offers more versatility (which is an important factor),. There is no catch up mechanism. Period
The " Grindfest " Argument is based on the same. Older ppl would have to grind because they would risk losing their power (versatility) if they refuse to grind SP.
SO PLEASE CCP, DON'T TAKE MA CANDY AWAY!!!!!!!!!
Nuff said
I only have 9 million SP and I don't want to see this added either. What do you have to say to that? I enjoy being able to progress at the normal rate without having to logon every day to run daily quests. I play when I want to play and I do other things when I don't want to play and I can always come back and enjoy the benefits of having trained over that time. No, I wouldn't actually be forced to logon under the system that is proposed, but I would feel compelled to do so in order to progress.
I enjoy and prefer that EVE is much more laid-back and I don't feel compelled to do anything that I don't want to do. |
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Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 22:53:00 -
[91] - Quote
Guild Wars had/has a system where EXP boosters would drop. The boost would affect the group (or in EvE, the fleet) for X amount of time and Y amount of boost. People would advertise all the time: "LFG, Have nnn Booster". Then groups of people would gather together and intensely play and utilize the EXP booster. The affect on the markets was excellent. People could sell spots in a boosted group, sell the booster itself, or buy their way into a group of more advanced players by offering up their booster. I would disagree that such boosters should be available in the Aurum store. Bu as valid drops, they'd be cool. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:47:00 -
[92] - Quote
Azemar wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but i'm going to play devil's advocate here:
A way to actively train skills.
god i love this game, it's so beautiful. Internet spaceships couldn't get better, but a way to actively train skills would seriously be the icing on the cake. The only qualm i have ever had with this game is the fact that i cannot do anything to make a skill train faster. Who loses with this? More active players are better, less active aren't.
Make activities that train a skill, such as a mini-game, a test maybe. Make these cost isk so you still have to go out into the world, and do everything.
Maybe add in whenever you're doing an activity that directly relates to your current skill, it amplifies the training time. This would further implore you to go out into the world.
Thoughts/Criticisms?
it was tried.. failed due to exploitvie activity. for example.. players wanting to train their gunnery would train their ships on an asteroid for hours firing mindlessly at it in order to skill up.
not satying minigames don't have their place (coming in walking in stations eventually) but not for important skilling please. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
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