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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.04 05:45:00 -
[1]
Now considering before the CSM; things changed when people whined enough.
This is the same even today.
So what has the CSM actually done? I posit nothing.
What is the CSM actually about? Or around to do?
Before if people whined... but CCP wasnt going to change it... CCP was essentially saying NO to those players. Thusly CCP looks bad.
Now people whine. Some 12 year old people argue with eachother and vote to say Yes or No then pass it on. This essentially filters out loads of the NOs. Then finally when CCP doesnt change it; it's the CSM who said NO and not the CSM.
Thusly CCP looks like they are the neutral or good guys.
Now I would like someone to prove me wrong. What has changed because of the CSM that CCP wouldnt change normally? ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.10.04 07:33:00 -
[2]
The CSM allows for the voice of many to be voiced through few. It's a poll like system that is bring many changes into the next expansion.
It allows for CCP to hear what the players want and to give feedback on all the ideas that have a lot of community support.
it also gives the players a real path of action if a dev is caught cheating again.
Now now I know, everyone has their own way of posting or voting blah blah, but overall this sort of thing is needed as the playerbase inceases.
it worked really well in jumpgate 3 years ago it's not doing too bad now.
However it's very very rusty and needs work to smooth it out, however I hope to see it become a feature of eve that lasts forever.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.10.04 08:53:00 -
[3]
A lot of things are still in the development pipeline (Black ops boosts for example).
What I've personally achieved that is actually in the game now?
* Suicide ganking rebalance * Factional Warfare mission difficulty rebalance
What is in the pipeline?
* Drone implants * Hopefully the return of the 30 day GTC
Things currently in discussion...
* Drone behaviour fixes * Small anchorable structures * More crossfaction ships
What will help out Eve in the long run?
* Contributions to industrialist expansion * Mission review
---
Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.04 09:19:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
What I've personally achieved that is actually in the game now?
You personally? As if you were the CSM all by your glorious self. Proofs to me that this is nothing more but a theater for bloated egos. |
Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.10.04 09:29:00 -
[5]
Just read what you want to read, Abrazzar.
At least I know I'm not spending a lot of time every week polishing my ego. ---
Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
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ellie mayer
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Posted - 2008.10.04 12:25:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
What I've personally achieved that is actually in the game now?
* Suicide ganking rebalance
OMG you don't honestly think that you personally did that did you ? Apart from that insight into you're greatness that did or will not come about because of the CSM, it was being talked about before and a re-balance was on the way weather you like to admit it or not. The other thing in the pipeline you mention are not what the CSM will achieve but other's, they will come up with the idea's that will be acted upon and as always others ( just like you did re the suicide gank thing ) will claim credit.
Sure some idea's will emerge from csm's esp with the industry fix but i bet more stupid idea's will come forward from people who are not really industrialists but think cause they are carebears they got to speak on every subject non pvp around.
I personally feel the jury still out on the CSM and it could be good, just ego's and petty politic's and are getting in the way and not neccessarily from the ones you'd think.
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.10.04 14:07:00 -
[7]
Originally by: ellie mayer Sure some idea's will emerge from csm's esp with the industry fix but i bet more stupid idea's will come forward from people who are not really industrialists but think cause they are carebears they got to speak on every subject non pvp around.
You mean as opposed to the PvP players & pirates who think they have to speak on every carebear subject around?
Everyone has an opinion which they are entitled to share - it may be more, or less informed than other people's, and it may be different to your own, but it's still a valid opinion.
My opinion on those who constantly dis the CSM is that they fail to realise that the CSM can only function if the players get behind it. Anyone purposefully trying to hinder the process or drag it down seems to be failing to understand that the point of the exercise is to improve EVE for everyone. If you look at the voting records, all of the delegates have voted for things that have a personally detrimental effect but which are better for EVE as a whole, or not voted for things that would have had a detrimental effect if they had gone through.
It is clear that others have different opinions, but I say to them that if they don't think that the CSM works, please feel free to propose an alternate method to filter the signal from the noise of thousands of forum posts every day, so that CCP don't accidentally listen to the whinings of a vocal minority and implement something that is great for 5% of the player base but bad for the other 95%.
I for one am glad to have this vehicle, and quite impressed that CCP have tried to give players a voice. I think they could have implemented it better, and supported it better, but it's a lot better than having nothing there at all.
It is difficult to say what the CSM has achieved this early on. Many of the proposed changes require considerable development and testing time and will not come to fruition in this, or even the next, incarnation of the CSM. There is something on the table that when a change is patched that has happened as a direct result of the CSM, that it is highlighted as such, as this will help everyone see that the CSM actually works, and improve public confidence in the mechanism. |
Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
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Posted - 2008.10.04 14:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jason Edwards So what has the CSM actually done? I posit nothing.
What is the CSM actually about? Or around to do?
Trolling is cheap and easy.
Standing up for what you believe in and trying to get things changed takes guts.
Bet you won't be putting yourself forward as a candidate.
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ellie mayer
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Posted - 2008.10.04 14:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lia Gaeren
Originally by: ellie mayer Sure some idea's will emerge from csm's esp with the industry fix but i bet more stupid idea's will come forward from people who are not really industrialists but think cause they are carebears they got to speak on every subject non pvp around.
You mean as opposed to the PvP players & pirates who think they have to speak on every carebear subject around?
While english not native lauguage i thought i said that just cause someone a carebear not mean they got any knowledge of industry and their idea's may not be good ones, , nothing about pvp'ers thinking they industrialists or industrialist saying about pvp aspects. Seen a lot of CSM members just say a idea is silly or stupid etc if disagree with it and seem to think that thier title will be ok and they not need a rational counter to it.
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Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
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Posted - 2008.10.04 15:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: ellie mayer Seen a lot of CSM members just say a idea is silly or stupid etc if disagree with it and seem to think that thier title will be ok and they not need a rational counter to it.
Didn't like their opinions or attitude ... don't vote for them next time or vote for someone who better represents your opinion ... or even better stand for election.
Didn't challenge their stupid opinions when you had a chance .... not their fault, it's yours. Couldn't challenge their stupid opinons, get elected and change things so people can't. |
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.04 17:30:00 -
[11]
Why is it "Slam the CSM" week?
I mean seriously... do you people love to just kick dirt in everyone's face.
It's bad enough all the pirates and gankers yell carebear at there own shadows....
Now we got a ton of whiners and morons who completely throw rationality out the window for the sake of breaking the window.
Did you all forget that the CSM has the unique ability of directly interfacing with CCP?
Think about it... out of 30 thousand some odd gamers who all have there own little pet peeves and a very small number of them get the chance thanks to this CSM system to voice those thoughts and opinion's.
Like I ranted about in a previous topic... there is no such thing as a democracy... there's always some damn bunch of idiots who think they know it all and grind an axe as soon as you make a mistake or ignore them.
And here you are trying to burn that bridge.... you honestly think it would improve the situation even after the fact?
Yes... people make mistakes... people screw up... people are selfish.. welcome to the human race. So in short... stop throwing a fit and get off your lazy @$$ and do something about it.
Like running for the CSM.
I Swear... must you people throw your brains out the door every whim and chance you get?
I support CSM for the fact that the communications pipeline.... granted narrow and not entirely clear.... is the only way to get things done and fixed in the world of EVE without having give into the mass rioting and screaming mob mentality. That's why its there and it makes CCP's job easier.
CCP may not be perfect... but its certainly better than most gaming administrations I've met in the time I've been gaming for... and its been a very very long time since I started playing online.
With all due respect... if your going to throw a fit.... stfu... or gtfo. Because all your doing is wasting our valuable time and looking like an idiot.
Screaming and complaining only slows the process down or makes it worse. And while I feel like im contradicting myself in saying that... at least I'm "complaining" at the complainers.
So how about coming up with a solution as opposed to starting a flamewar.
Oh wow... what a great idea drake...
Well duh!
PS: As for what changed? I can see a lot has changed... your just too jaded to even notice. It's called progress.... small yes.... not as grandiose as some would like it.. but it is progress. |
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.04 19:51:00 -
[12]
Having had insight from within on the CSM (serving as an alternate) I can say without hesitation that the CSM has made a difference. CCP listen to player concerns and issues/proposals, and use this information to inform and plan future developments/expansions. There is invariably a lag phase between issues reaching CCP and their implementation, which is to be expected when development/balancing etc is involved.
I'm running for the CSM because I believe players need such a route to have their voices heard, and its imperative that the CSM interact and listen to the player base at large on issues.
Having just finished with a CCP meeting (records posted hopefully next week), I am feeling very positive on the future of the CSM and the importance given to it by CCP!
Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron)
Better to be a live dog than a dead lion... |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.04 20:30:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jason Edwards on 04/10/2008 20:30:41 MotherMoon recites democracy's talking point. Ya thanks for coming by.
Quote: A lot of things are still in the development pipeline (Black ops boosts for example).
The devs admitted before black ops went live that they pre-nerfed it and they plan to boost it in the future. Obviously the CSM has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Quote: What I've personally achieved that is actually in the game now? * Suicide ganking rebalance
So you are part of this CSM? Interesting. Though just glancing at your post it is very respectable of a post. So I give you props.
Suicide ganking whining existed long before the CSM. I'll keep this one neutral.
Quote: * Factional Warfare mission difficulty rebalance
I was on sisi for fail warfare testing. I put in my many cents. Which got many dev responses. Up until I got podkilled a couple times and lost all my sp. Dont think CSM really has much to say for this.
Quote: What is in the pipeline? * Drone implants
chribba and myself; I know have multiple threads which were before the CSM and had devs saying that they are looking into it, but not any time soon. Perhaps it is coming up now... I'd say that one is given to chribba.
Quote: * Hopefully the return of the 30 day GTC
This one would truly be a real CSM victory. Considering how much whining is happening and nothing is being done. CSM would get credit. Then again if you notice... you use the word HOPEfully. Yes well you notice how you have no sway over what CCP is going to do.
Quote: Things currently in discussion... * Drone behaviour fixes
There are some good and funny little flash videos showing this. Honestly though... that recent change really made it good. Yes sometimes drones do what they are told too and instead shoot what their autotarget is; or they split into 2 groups. This is far from what was happening before.
Quote: * Small anchorable structures
I posted this idea which split off into a much larger discussion and eventually got linked into the sticky in features forum. CSM really isnt doing much here.
Quote: * More crossfaction ships
And finally we comment on the whole... Things currently in discussion...
These arent changes.
Now lets discuss how many ideas have been shot down by the CSM and not CCP. I bet there's a load of them.
This kind of proves my point CSM achieves nothing. Good in theory... not practical. CCP is a company who do what they do. They likely even have rough plans of what each expansion will be about in the next couple years.
PS: Where I say I posted the idea. It just is to elaborate how Me and about 20,000 other people have also posted the ideas. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.04 20:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
Originally by: Jason Edwards So what has the CSM actually done? I posit nothing.
What is the CSM actually about? Or around to do?
Trolling is cheap and easy.
Standing up for what you believe in and trying to get things changed takes guts.
Bet you won't be putting yourself forward as a candidate.
How much money are these people making for their time? I suspect it's closer to 0... which last I checked was slavery. Sorry I'm not a slave. I can however post my ideas here and there and CCP will likely read them.
Quote: Why is it "Slam the CSM" week? I mean seriously... do you people love to just kick dirt in everyone's face.
Because I've been bothered to read about how the CSM's term is up and how an age limit is being imposed and such. The CSM is getting attention because of that... the CSM's record is also up and available and a batting record of 0 is pretty bad.
Quote: Did you all forget that the CSM has the unique ability of directly interfacing with CCP?
Isnt there a podcast people who talk with greyscale all the time? That's direct interfacing. Oh and recall... devs post in the forums... they at least read them. Meaning thats direct interfacing as well. CSM has nothing special.
Quote: And here you are trying to burn that bridge.... you honestly think it would improve the situation even after the fact?
Burn what bridge? There clearly is no discourse. They seemingly say nothing to the devs; because nothing changes. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.04 20:44:00 -
[15]
Quote: Having had insight from within on the CSM (serving as an alternate) I can say without hesitation that the CSM has made a difference.
So you admit bias and then make a statement. HAH.
Quote: CCP listen to player concerns and issues/proposals, and use this information to inform and plan future developments/expansions.
Yes well before the CSM existed... people did exactly the same thing... make threads with hundreds of responses and then change happens. That's how it happens still. Then again im still waiting for the nano nerfs take 3. CSM has nothing to do with this.
Quote: There is invariably a lag phase between issues reaching CCP and their implementation, which is to be expected when development/balancing etc is involved.
Yep we propose stuff 2 years ago and it gets implemented now. CSM then pretends to take credit.
Quote: I'm running for the CSM because I believe players need such a route to have their voices heard, and its imperative that the CSM interact and listen to the player base at large on issues.
Here's how it actually works. Either goto Features or Game Development. Make thread... "Nerf Titan DD" get 50 friends to post in there to say how the DD needs to be nerfed and what changes could be to be reasonable. Then because of popularity of thread in there... loads of other people show up to say something also. Then eventually change happens. Then we get 1 hour cooldown.
That's how change happens. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
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Posted - 2008.10.04 20:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jason Edwards Loads of dribble in a couple of posts
Wow! Okay first post, basically your argument is that CSM have gotten nothing done in 6 months, where as 20,000 people whining for a couple of years have achived loads of stuff .....
Except that all the examples of things they have achieved havn't happen yet, and are about to happen. In other words it took over 2 years plus to achieve anything.
Then you have the cheek to say that the CSM are useless cause they have achieved 'nothing' in 6 months.
You need to buy a dictionary and look up the word hypocrit.
Originally by: Jason Edwards Yet more dribble in a next post
Slavery, yep last time i checked the dictionary volunteer is another definition of slave .... oh wait just rechecked and you have completely misunderstood what a volunteer is. Let me help you what it isn't is a Troll
You expect them to have done so much in 6 months and yet you havn't got the guts to try and do 1/10 as much as they have. You are however willing to take the glory for what other people have achieved, just because you replied to a couple of threads on the forums.
One of the main blocks to communication between the player base and the CCP are the forums where people like you, elitist clichy forum warriors, who make the forums so unwelcoming to anyone outside your narrow group of friends or outside your narrow minded point of view.
Remember the old saying ... if your not part of the solution your part of the problem ... guess what.
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Vladina Krematoria
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Posted - 2008.10.04 21:11:00 -
[17]
Actualy Jason what you are refering to used to be called flaming..and with the CSM it is now a much more orderly discusion..things dont just get spammed they get discussed and in a lot of cases acted upon..
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.04 22:46:00 -
[18]
Quote: Wow! Okay first post, basically your argument is that CSM have gotten nothing done in 6 months, where as 20,000 people whining for a couple of years have achived loads of stuff .....
If they supposedly can do so much... they should have at least gotten 1 thing changed.
Whiners get stuff changed more often then the CSM apparently.
Quote: Except that all the examples of things they have achieved havn't happen yet, and are about to happen. In other words it took over 2 years plus to achieve anything.
Actually all my examples are quite live events. A titan cant fire its DD as long as it has enough cap.
Quote: Then you have the cheek to say that the CSM are useless cause they have achieved 'nothing' in 6 months.
erm. I was born with 2 cheeks. So yes I have "cheek". Yes well the record is evident that things change due to whiners within 6months or less. These whiners arent in some CSM deal that speaks directly to the devs.
Quote: You need to buy a dictionary and look up the word hypocrit.
Yes well I would be a hypocrit if things didnt change. But they do because of whiners.
Quote: You expect them to have done so much in 6 months and yet you havn't got the guts to try and do 1/10 as much as they have.
As we established using the points that a CSM member put out. The CSM did nothing. So 1/10 of nothing is still nothing. Infact I've done 10^109574636 times more then them. Which is still nothing. At least according to you. I have on the otherhand been on sisi doing things and bug reporting. Etc etc. That's something. Meaning I really have done more then the CSM. Though I will admit... the CSM members most likely also contribute also.
Quote: You are however willing to take the glory for what other people have achieved, just because you replied to a couple of threads on the forums.
I never took credit. I just put it in that light because it fits. Tons of other whiners with me also get credit.
Quote: One of the main blocks to communication between the player base and the CCP are the forums where people like you, elitist clichy forum warriors, who make the forums so unwelcoming to anyone outside your narrow group of friends or outside your narrow minded point of view.
You only a few sentences were calling me a troll... yet I think I am at least bringing something to the table. Valid examples and arguments. You on the otherhand want to throw around these ad homninems. I do believe I have been rather cordial.
Quote: Remember the old saying ... if your not part of the solution your part of the problem ... guess what.
You are certainly strong with the fallacious arguments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Quote: Actualy Jason what you are refering to used to be called flaming..and with the CSM it is now a much more orderly discusion..things dont just get spammed they get discussed and in a lot of cases acted upon..
To be honest I just read the first few PDFs on their CSM. Though looking at it... they only have 5 posted. So it would seem I posted the majority of their attitude and changes.
Just of note. If you click on Results: it even says Currently there are no results. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.05 01:52:00 -
[19]
I admit bias by being an alternate, which excludes me from trips to Iceland/fanfest and the like...hence I get NOTHING for my time. However, I see what the CSM does behind the scnes and how CCP takes it seriously. Guess you'll have to believe me there, no biggee if you don't ;)
Your point about things being proposed 2 years ago valid...thing is, something is now being done about them due to the CSM raising these issues (on behalf of players that proposed them in Assembly hall etc). Had there not been a CSM, are you so sure they would be looked at?
The Bounty hunter and Merc issues that Dierdra and I looked at and proposed are an example of something that has been formalised and pushed by the CSM entirely...read some minutes that will be posted later this week.
Your arguments against the CSM will make little difference, since the candidacy period is open until the 17th, then voting begins. There is going to be a second term of the CSM, and a third etc. If you don't think it's working, run for a spot!
Take care, Bruce Hansen
Better to be a live dog than a dead lion... |
Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
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Posted - 2008.10.05 03:30:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Pax Ratlin on 05/10/2008 03:48:23 Edited by: Pax Ratlin on 05/10/2008 03:33:06
Originally by: Jason Edwards stuff who did what when?
Again your your deliberatly missing the point. Lets see if i can simplfy it for you?
You expect few CSM dealing not only with their own agenda, but with constant submissions from the playerbase to look over and think about, and with only 6 months to do it in, to do more than, or even the same as what a large group of people focused on a single issue managed to do in 2 years.
Your impossible expectations are no reason to disband the CSM.
So i again ask you to prove that you have DONE 1/10 as much as you EXPECT them to do? I'm not asking if you could have done more than them, i'm not even asking you to do as much as them, i'm asking you to prove you have done one tenth as much as you expect them to have done.
But i seriously doubt you are able to becasue that is the very basis of your agrumentative tactics, you say A has done more than B, and ask B to prove what they have done, knowing full well that B will spend so much time defending themselves they will never ask A to prove what exactly they have done. It's a cheap tactic often used by politicians in public debates.
Your own expectations are your own problem, not a sympton of the failure of the CSM.
As for being cordial, it makes no difference how you say something if what you say is offensive. An insult said with a smile is still an insult. At least i can say i have been honest when expressing my feelings.
On the subject of False Dilemma .... so far you have gone out of your way to paint this 'discussion' as you against the csm, it has not worked how you think it should be working and should be scrapped and thus it is you who is trapped within a False Dilemma.
Again it is you who has attacked the very premise of the CSM, it's operation, it's results and it's supporters. And while the entire enterprise is far from perfect it dosn't warrent the vicious attack by you and others.
Rather than work to make the system better you would rather tear it down completely, why is this? Is it because if it does work, if it does get better dosn't that mean that it will more accuratly reflect the opinions and desires of the whole player base, rather than a select minority who would rather use the bullying tactics to get what they want while trying to suppress what others want.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.05 04:11:00 -
[21]
Quote: I admit bias by being an alternate, which excludes me from trips to Iceland/fanfest and the like...hence I get NOTHING for my time. However, I see what the CSM does behind the scnes and how CCP takes it seriously.
Internet spaceships is serious business.
Quote: Guess you'll have to believe me there, no biggee if you don't ;)
I think imma stay with CCP + Microsoft = evil corporation who doesnt care position.
Quote: Your point about things being proposed 2 years ago valid...thing is, something is now being done about them due to the CSM raising these issues (on behalf of players that proposed them in Assembly hall etc). Had there not been a CSM, are you so sure they would be looked at?
The devs did say something would be done. I cant read all possible futures... I'd love future sight but sadly I dont have it. So lets go with the devs arent liers option.
Quote: The Bounty hunter and Merc issues that Dierdra and I looked at and proposed are an example of something that has been formalised and pushed by the CSM entirely...read some minutes that will be posted later this week.
Not familiar at all with this... but devs have constantly spoken on how the system utterly fails. Honestly is it that much a thing that needs fixing? Should it get priority over the dozens of other bugged systems. Perhaps u did get them to move it's priority up... perhaps they've had some guy in the basement working on it for a few years and he's getting close... so nothing changed. I guess I'll have to look into it.
Quote: Your arguments against the CSM will make little difference, since the candidacy period is open until the 17th, then voting begins. There is going to be a second term of the CSM, and a third etc. If you don't think it's working, run for a spot!
I'm not saying its not working as it should be. I also dont think it should be abolished.
My point is that you guys are puppets and nothing you do will change anything. CCP does what CCP does. They only change that when there are excessive amounts of whiners whining. Because mass whining rage quits hurt their profits. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.05 04:22:00 -
[22]
Quote: Again your your deliberatly missing the point. Lets see if i can simplfy it for you? You expect few CSM dealing not only with their own agenda, but with constant submissions from the playerbase to look over and think about, and with only 6 months to do it in, to do more than, or even the same as what a large group of people focused on a single issue managed to do in 2 years.
Not 2 years. Just 6 months. 2 years was just the length of time some of the changes that the CSM was claiming credit for.
Quote: Your impossible expectations are no reason to disband the CSM.
I'm sorry but I dont recall where I said to disband the CSM. I'm sorry if I said that. I never meant to.
Quote: So i again ask you to prove that you have DONE 1/10 as much as you EXPECT them to do?
What I expected them to do is exactly what they did. I gave them 6 months silence. Their purpose is to take the position of saying NO to bad ideas instead of CCP being the ones saying NO.
Quote: As for being cordial, it makes no difference how you say something if what you say is offensive. An insult said with a smile is still an insult. At least i can say i have been honest when expressing my feelings.
Well I guess it doesnt matter what I say to you. No matter what I say... you are going to take offense and I dont wish to do that. Thusly I will end discourse with you. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.05 10:48:00 -
[23]
Quote: Not familiar at all with this... but devs have constantly spoken on how the system utterly fails. Honestly is it that much a thing that needs fixing? Should it get priority over the dozens of other bugged systems.
So you are saying the CSM are puppets of CCP? Yet, you admit you aren't familiar with issues that the CSM puts forward to CCP? Bugged systems get submitted via the bugs and fixes threads. The CSM has a mandate to suggest changes for the FUTURE direction of Eve, and these ideas and avenues are proposed via players. We see a lot of tweaks and bug issues submitted by the CSM as some are irritating and have remained so for a good chunk of time. CCP have also taken these onboard.
The CSM works independantly from CCP. I view CCP differently than you. I see them as a committed company wanting (and striving) towards bringing a game for players that is rich in environment, opportunities and playability...and keeps players interested over long periods of time. It's in their best interests (financially) to make the game the best they possibly can. Players play the game- it's a good idea to let them have an imput into features and the future direction. The CSM is the conduit that makes this possible. It gives the players a voice.
Take care, Arithron
Better to be a live dog than a dead lion... |
Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
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Posted - 2008.10.05 12:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
I'm sorry but I dont recall where I said to disband the CSM. I'm sorry if I said that. I never meant to.
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Well I guess it doesnt matter what I say to you. No matter what I say... you are going to take offense and I dont wish to do that. Thusly I will end discourse with you.
You are correct you have never said that the CSM should be disbanded, i sincerely apologise.
I have therefore taking offense to a faulty assumption, as the CSM is pretty much the only real route for individual or small groups of players to contribute to the game (no matter how ineffective it is) it's disbanding would pretty much remove my ability to have my say and that i was finding offensive.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.07 01:26:00 -
[25]
Quote: So you are saying the CSM are puppets of CCP?
A nuance I think. Maybe not puppets but certainly the sort of PR buffer zone.
Quote: Yet, you admit you aren't familiar with issues that the CSM puts forward to CCP?
By the looks of things... the information available to me I am about 2/3s familiar. Meaning I am reasonably familiar. Plus my ignorance is only put forth in the case that something the CSM actually did something which created change. My being familiarness has nothing to do with the PR buffer that which is the CSM. It's an undeniable fact.
Quote: Bugged systems get submitted via the bugs and fixes threads. The CSM has a mandate to suggest changes for the FUTURE direction of Eve, and these ideas and avenues are proposed via players. We see a lot of tweaks and bug issues submitted by the CSM as some are irritating and have remained so for a good chunk of time. CCP have also taken these onboard.
Ok? Not that any of that really matters.
Quote: The CSM works independantly from CCP.
Duh?
Quote: I view CCP differently than you.
You can view anything any way you like. Doesnt bother me.
Quote: I see them as a committed company wanting (and striving) towards bringing a game for players that is rich in environment, opportunities and playability...and keeps players interested over long periods of time.
You make the assumption that I dont see them that way also? In reality this is true. But they have limited resources and tons of change ideas. Features forum gets loads of suggests everyday. Someone has to be there to say NO.
Quote: It's in their best interests (financially) to make the game the best they possibly can. Players play the game- it's a good idea to let them have an imput into features and the future direction. The CSM is the conduit that makes this possible. It gives the players a voice.
As we kind of established in this thread. There is no conduit from CSM to CCP. Features forum vs CSM forum is exactly the same thing. CCP does what they do. When ideas dont get into the game... it's kind of the CSM voting NO now. Instead of CCP saying NO.
I propose something to the CSM.
Vote on something absolutely ridiculous. Like allowing supercaps into high sec and allowance to use DD in high sec. Then submit that to CCP. See what happens. You will get told NO. Anything CCP does change that might coincide with CSM is just coincidence. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.07 02:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jason Edwards I propose something to the CSM.
Vote on something absolutely ridiculous. Like allowing supercaps into high sec and allowance to use DD in high sec. Then submit that to CCP. See what happens. You will get told NO. Anything CCP does change that might coincide with CSM is just coincidence.
Your "test" is stupid. The CSM is not a decision-making body, it's an advisory body. If your doctor tells you to walk for an hour every day, you probably do it, but if he tells you to walk for 24 hours every day, you get a new doctor, no matter how much you may trust the advice of doctors in the abstract.
The CSM's role is to shift focus, to raise counterarguments, and to emphasize that the players as a whole really want something instead of just a few vocal forum whiners. It is, of necessity, subtle, because CCP can't give them direct power. That does not mean that they don't have power, it merely means that you don't get to see them exercising it over the short term.
If you want them to be able to stand up and proclaim that they forced CCP to make the game free, or something equally nonsensical, then you're going to be disappointed. If, however, you understand that CCP really does have the best interests of the game at heart, that they really do want to hear the imput of the players, and that they really are (eventually...oh god, so eventually) going to do what they say they're going to do, then you'll understand why the CSM exists, what its role is, and why it matters. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.07 03:06:00 -
[27]
Quote: Your "test" is stupid. The CSM is not a decision-making body, it's an advisory body. If your doctor tells you to walk for an hour every day, you probably do it, but if he tells you to walk for 24 hours every day, you get a new doctor, no matter how much you may trust the advice of doctors in the abstract.
Yes I said the test is stupid/ridiculous. That's the point.
Quote: The CSM's role is to shift focus, to raise counterarguments, and to emphasize that the players as a whole really want something instead of just a few vocal forum whiners. It is, of necessity, subtle, because CCP can't give them direct power. That does not mean that they don't have power, it merely means that you don't get to see them exercising it over the short term.
So they do have power. Could you please post an example of where they were using this power? Oh right that really isnt possible.
Quote: If you want them to be able to stand up and proclaim that they forced CCP to make the game free, or something equally nonsensical, then you're going to be disappointed.
Nope. I want just 1 example of them changing CCP mind as it were.
Quote: If, however, you understand that CCP really does have the best interests of the game at heart, that they really do want to hear the imput of the players, and that they really are (eventually...oh god, so eventually) going to do what they say they're going to do, then you'll understand why the CSM exists, what its role is, and why it matters.
I'd love to link you a video of the privateers(alliance who kept over 50 wardecs constant all the time) were using a nanodomi with nos and ogre2s and a nanophoon. Then compare that to todays stuff.
Every single bit of that has been nerfed. The torps on the phoon no longer fly 75km. The bs nanos arent anything like that anymore. The domi nos is changed.
All these things have been changed because forum whiners got big whine threads going.
Now go look in Assembly Hall. Any threads which only get 2 posts in it wont even get mentioned at the CSM. The big whine threads are the ones which get CSM attention. Then they vote yes or no. CCP reads assembly hall. They can decide to make change without CSM voting. CSM for all I care could vote NO on everything and then see change and oh wait... ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jason Edwards Yes I said the test is stupid/ridiculous. That's the point.
My point was that it doesn't illustrate anything. Testing via ludicrousness(aka reductio ad absurdum) is fine in many cases, but this isn't one of them. Your test would only be meaningful if CCP did it on the CSM's advice - in other words, if they were as powerful as you seem to want them to be.
Originally by: Jason Edwards So they do have power. Could you please post an example of where they were using this power? Oh right that really isnt possible...Nope. I want just 1 example of them changing CCP mind as it were.
Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of responses from CCP just yet, what with the limited time in Iceland and the slow release schedule on the second submission. Thus, I can only point you here, here, here, here, and here for examples of things that the CSM apparently changed CCP's opinion on at least somewhat. One of the changes has even been implemented, being the one that required the least programming work.
Originally by: Jason Edwards I'd love to link you a video of the privateers(alliance who kept over 50 wardecs constant all the time) were using a nanodomi with nos and ogre2s and a nanophoon. Then compare that to todays stuff.
Every single bit of that has been nerfed. The torps on the phoon no longer fly 75km. The bs nanos arent anything like that anymore. The domi nos is changed.
All these things have been changed because forum whiners got big whine threads going.
Now go look in Assembly Hall. Any threads which only get 2 posts in it wont even get mentioned at the CSM. The big whine threads are the ones which get CSM attention. Then they vote yes or no. CCP reads assembly hall. They can decide to make change without CSM voting. CSM for all I care could vote NO on everything and then see change and oh wait...
Yeah, but those torps did 2/3 the DPS of the current ones. Overall, I think that change was for the better. Battleships shouldn't be usefully nano-able, and the old nosses were too strong by far, meaning that those changes were good too.
Nonetheless, you rather illustrate my point here. Prior to the CSM, CCP had no useful quantitative metric for determining what players thought, and so they used forum static as a proxy. Now they have a real broad-based measurement scheme - the CSM elections - and can make information judging by what the representatives of some ten thousand of the players decide, rather than what some ten dozen talk about. Or do you think that Eve General is a better proposal mechanism for game changes than the CSM? ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
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