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Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
101
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Please explain to me in simple terms why CSM6 was so bad. |
Grumpy Owly
468
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture Bounty Hunting for CSM7
It's just criminal - Smuggling |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
619
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
you should read Ted Kaczynski's description of the "power process" in his manifesto, it explains this whole thing rather well. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
626
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Please explain to me in simple terms why CSM6 was so bad.
Took credit for the incarna revolt after originally backstabbing the players. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
104
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
So Grumpy Owly and Nicolo post off topic responses.
Red, explain to me how CSM6 backstabbed the players? How did CSM6 not help CCP to have a non-frothing focus group to help them get things right? |
Townsend Harris
The Milkmen Test Alliance Please Ignore
110
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think it can be summed up like this: People STILL don't get what the position of the CSM is in relation to the development process. the CSM does not have veto power, cannot demand that x y or z changes be made to the game, and so on. All the CSM candidates who have promised or even talked about making changes to the game are either lying to you or deluded about what the CSM does. Essentially the CSM is a way for CCP to interact with people who play the game. In the past 0.0 was badly represented on the CSM, which resulted in lots of *badthings* happening to nulsec, not out of malice but because no one from nulsec was there to say "HEY CCP THIS IS A BAD IDEA!" When The Mittani came in he made some organizational changes to the CSM (and also used the bloc voting power of the CFC to get elected as well...) that made it much more effective in terms of internal CSM communication and CSM<->CCP communication, things that are semi no brainers like having a 24/7 chat channel so people can discuss things whenever and NOT just at summits in Iceland. However since the level of communication has increased, any change that certain entities don't like gets blamed on the Mittani (not the CSM as a whole, who *sometimes* get to discuss changes with CCP, and not CCP who MAKE the changes). See the Titian Nerf. The most that the CSM had to do with that was saying "Hey CCP, titians are broken. Think you could fix them?" to which CCP replied "Hey we were thinking the same thing. What do you think about this...?" Whats really funny is that when major changes to the game AREN'T discussed with the CSM (see skill changes and racial BC/Destroyer skills) everyone gets all huffy about it. TL:DR - It Wasn't. |
Kai Tel
State War Academy Caldari State
91
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
They represented the interests of a vocal few in the face of a formerly quiet majority that will not take it anymore... |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
104
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kai Tel wrote:They represented the interests of a vocal few in the face of a formerly quiet majority that will not take it anymore...
What does this mean? This seems like an awfully vague and incendiary post. |
Townsend Harris
The Milkmen Test Alliance Please Ignore
110
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Please explain to me in simple terms why CSM6 was so bad. Took credit for the incarna revolt after originally backstabbing the players. I like how they liked incarna at first. Then took credit for CCP changing policy when it was the mass unsubs that did it. They stole the players victory and stamped it with their name. Looking at mitten particular. Things like the micro-transactions, that caused the protests, were NOT discussed with the CSM. Pricing of Aurum store things certainly wasn't discussed with the CSM. I've never actually seen any CSM 6 member take credit fro CCP changing their direction, rather they've said that because of increased communication between CCP and the CSM the game has become better. Maybe *you* should run for the CSM and correct the terrible terrible injustice that's been done? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
619
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:So Grumpy Owly and Nicolo post off topic responses. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it off topic. |
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Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
104
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Townsend Harris wrote:I think it can be summed up like this: People STILL don't get what the position of the CSM is in relation to the development process. the CSM does not have veto power, cannot demand that x y or z changes be made to the game, and so on. All the CSM candidates who have promised or even talked about making changes to the game are either lying to you or deluded about what the CSM does. Essentially the CSM is a way for CCP to interact with people who play the game. In the past 0.0 was badly represented on the CSM, which resulted in lots of *badthings* happening to nulsec, not out of malice but because no one from nulsec was there to say "HEY CCP THIS IS A BAD IDEA!" When The Mittani came in he made some organizational changes to the CSM (and also used the bloc voting power of the CFC to get elected as well...) that made it much more effective in terms of internal CSM communication and CSM<->CCP communication, things that are semi no brainers like having a 24/7 chat channel so people can discuss things whenever and NOT just at summits in Iceland. However since the level of communication has increased, any change that certain entities don't like gets blamed on the Mittani (not the CSM as a whole, who *sometimes* get to discuss changes with CCP, and not CCP who MAKE the changes). See the Titian Nerf. The most that the CSM had to do with that was saying "Hey CCP, titians are broken. Think you could fix them?" to which CCP replied "Hey we were thinking the same thing. What do you think about this...?" Whats really funny is that when major changes to the game AREN'T discussed with the CSM (see skill changes and racial BC/Destroyer skills) everyone gets all huffy about it. TL:DR - It Wasn't.
I actually get how the CSM is supposed to work, but I kinda wanted to get other people's feelings on what was so bad, cause i hear so much bashing of CSM6, when they seemed to have, at the very least, not damaged the game at all. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
104
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:So Grumpy Owly and Nicolo post off topic responses. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it off topic.
Well explain it to me man, that's what this thread is for. I don't want to have to go read some terrorists manifesto because you think it has bearing on a video game focus group. |
Townsend Harris
The Milkmen Test Alliance Please Ignore
110
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:
I actually get how the CSM is supposed to work, but I kinda wanted to get other people's feelings on what was so bad, cause i hear so much bashing of CSM6, when they seemed to have, at the very least, not damaged the game at all.
That was more for the benefit of people who think "Durrr GEWNS nerfed Mah Titian!" |
Grumpy Owly
468
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:So Grumpy Owly and Nicolo post off topic responses.
Red, explain to me how CSM6 backstabbed the players? How did CSM6 not help CCP to have a non-frothing focus group to help them get things right?
Not at all, had you bothered to follow the election campaign you would have seen the question come up and be answered with contencious opinions and claims from several stances. As such my comment was a cynical remark to the fact that this has been discussed several times and it is insulting to some players to see it repeated over and over again. Especially when the CSM forum can provide these viewpoints.
But to answer personally with my own opinion, YET AGAIN, I don't think bad of the CSM6 at all, so therefore I consider your question to be loaded. I did not like some of the unsubstatiated claims made by a now absent chairman regarding his so called influence or the methodology of the applied politics with a derisory selfish focus. As such I wont tarnish the whole of CSM6 at all.
Otherwise go read all the various threads with regards to the CSM7 pre-election material.
btw: Elections have ended. Mittens ****** up. Have to wait till next year, though no certainty he will be allowed to stand, nor that he may be interested as he has decided to just wear one tin foil hat by his own reckoning. Which I suppose is handy seeing as he can't waer the so called crown he wanted.
Hope this answers your need to prattle. Bounty Hunting for CSM7
It's just criminal - Smuggling |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
104
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 06:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:So Grumpy Owly and Nicolo post off topic responses.
Red, explain to me how CSM6 backstabbed the players? How did CSM6 not help CCP to have a non-frothing focus group to help them get things right? Not at all, had you bothered to follow the election campaign you would have seen the question come up and be answered with contencious opinions and claims from several stances. As such my comment was a cynical remark to the fact that this has been discussed several times and it is insulting to some players to see it repeated over and over again. Especially when the CSM forum can provide these viewpoints. But to answer personally with my own opinion, YET AGAIN, I don't think bad of the CSM6 at all, so therefore I consider your question to be loaded. I did not like some of the unsubstatiated claims made by a now absent chairman regarding his so called influence or the methodology of the applied politics with a derisory selfish focus. As such I wont tarnish the whole of CSM6 at all. Otherwise go read all the various threads with regards to the CSM7 pre-election material. btw: Elections have ended. Mittens ****** up. Have to wait till next year, though no certainty he will be allowed to stand, nor that he may be interested as he has decided to just wear one tin foil hat by his own reckoning. Which I suppose is handy seeing as he can't waer the so called crown he wanted. Hope this answers your need to prattle.
I wasn't talking about Mittani, and if you don't think badly of CSM6 then my question wasn't directed at you.
I ask what was so wrong with CSM6 because I see so much hate for them going on on these forums. It's true, I didn't follow the election as closely as I could have. I wanted an opinion from someone who genuinely hates CSM6. I just want to have a better answer from that group than
Townsend Harris wrote:"Durrr GEWNS nerfed Mah Titian!" |
Aiden Andraste
State War Academy Caldari State
196
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lapine, it's my opinion that CSM6 did a great job. Yes, Mittens is ~important~ and whatever, but there are unsung heroes of CSM6 as well. This is why a majority of them are now serving a second (nth?) term.
...Except Mittens because CCP has a marketing image to uphold in front of Sony/Nvidia/::lolgamingmedia:: |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
104
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 06:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Still waiting on Nicolo da'Vicenza to explain what he means. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
619
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 07:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Still waiting on Nicolo da'Vicenza to explain what he means. forum ate first draft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_process
Quote:The power process is a theoretical process necessary to fulfill one's psychological need to exert power to fulfill goals, discussed in Theodore Kaczynski's manifesto, Industrial Society and Its Future. Kaczynski suggested that the need to undergo the power process was biological, and used historical and modern examples to demonstrate the importance of this need.
Kaczynski defined the power process as not necessarily being the need to exert power over others, in fact, most people living in a more natural environment wouldn't have the desire to. He defines the power process in terms of the need of people to autonomously control and dictate the course of their own lives. So, in context of the CSM6 furor, the outrage has nothing to do with the performance of the individuals comprising CSM6 and everything to do with the eve-o activists' psychological need to feel in control of themselves, and to achieve this feeling by exerting control over others (being unable to do so using more direct methods). In Kaczynski's manifesto the 'power process' was the driving force between increasing 'social engineering' and oppressive bureaucracy - countless individuals in pursuit of a psychological self-affirmation in a post-survival world. In EVE it's a pack of diehard anti-CSM moaners and protestors driven by strongly felt yet poorly reasoned justifications.
EVE is a great game in that genuinely felt class divides and virtual psychological disorders can develop in a virtual community. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
106
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 07:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Still waiting on Nicolo da'Vicenza to explain what he means. forum ate first draft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_processQuote:The power process is a theoretical process necessary to fulfill one's psychological need to exert power to fulfill goals, discussed in Theodore Kaczynski's manifesto, Industrial Society and Its Future. Kaczynski suggested that the need to undergo the power process was biological, and used historical and modern examples to demonstrate the importance of this need.
Kaczynski defined the power process as not necessarily being the need to exert power over others, in fact, most people living in a more natural environment wouldn't have the desire to. He defines the power process in terms of the need of people to autonomously control and dictate the course of their own lives. So, in context of the CSM6 furor, the outrage has nothing to do with the performance of the individuals comprising CSM6 and everything to do with the eve-o activists' psychological need to feel in control of themselves, and to achieve this feeling by exerting control over others (being unable to do so directly). In Kaczynski's manifesto the 'power process' was the driving force between increasing 'social engineering' and oppressive bureaucracy - countless individuals in pursuit of a psychological self-affirmation in a post-survival world. In EVE it's a pack of diehard anti-CSM moaners and protestors driven by strongly felt yet poorly reasoned justifications. EVE is a great game in that genuinely felt class divides and virtual psychological disorders can develop in a virtual community. Okay, I think I'm getting it. Could you break it down into simpler terms? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
619
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 07:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: Okay, I think I'm getting it. Could you break it down into simpler terms?
EVE is a social game, possibly the most socially complex MMO in existence due to its single-sharded nature, and much like real society people are attempting to exert social power/"metagame" over others not out of any genuine attempt to improve society but instead to address a deep psychological need to affirm their self-worth.
In fact if you think about it, EVE's entire thing is about hooking in customers with the promise of crapping all over some other scrub for no other reason then it feels good. \
Actually, The Mittani himself wrote an interesting TTH bloc on his observations on this phenomena: http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/spymaster/65 |
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Revolution Rising
Gentlemen of Better Ilk
292
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 07:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture
Strangely enough, that's not too far from the truth.
CSM7 Skype Leak
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HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
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Posted - 2012.04.01 10:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
CSM6 demonstrated the shortcomings of CSM 1-5's "add 200 items to a backlog, but don't do anything about getting those items implemented in game" approach, that's why all the bitter babbies hated it so much. |
Blake Zacary
Nobilium Coalition Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
12
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Posted - 2012.04.01 12:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think the way the CSM presented itself is both a plus and a minus for them.A united front was a great thing when dealing with CCP but not so great when dealing with the player base.In one way this made the CSM appear to have real influence but in another it made them look like Ali G did everything and the rest were just yes men.This was mainly due to the fact that the player base was kept out of the loop as to which CSM rep supported certain ideas or were against certain ideas and what points they put forward themselves.A couple of CSM's actually posted blogs about this issue.
For example due to the lack of proper information for the player base,it's really hard to judge what the CSM reps are actually doing,as we don't really know what each individual is contributing to the CSM.I know personally I would like to see a more open,honest and clear CSM.As a voter I want to know if the individual I voted for is doing a good job or not !
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Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
82
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Posted - 2012.04.01 20:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kai Tel wrote:They represented the interests of a vocal few in the face of a formerly quiet majority that will not take it anymore...
How so?
I don't remember a massive revolt in the polls, the chairman got a humongous mandate even more than last time (including even more non-goons), and most well known candidates who ran were re-elected.
In fantasy alternate world, yea whatever delusional ideas you have are reality. To bad the rest of us are in the real world.
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MEPH1ST0
DOUBLE IDENTITY BLACK-MARK
7
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Posted - 2012.04.01 22:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Please explain to me in simple terms why CSM6 was so bad. Took credit for the incarna revolt after originally backstabbing the players. I like how they liked incarna at first. Then took credit for CCP changing policy when it was the mass unsubs that did it. They stole the players victory and stamped it with their name. Looking at mitten particular.
This, basically
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Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
146
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Posted - 2012.04.02 04:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
MEPH1ST0 wrote:RougeOperator wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Please explain to me in simple terms why CSM6 was so bad. Took credit for the incarna revolt after originally backstabbing the players. I like how they liked incarna at first. Then took credit for CCP changing policy when it was the mass unsubs that did it. They stole the players victory and stamped it with their name. Looking at mitten particular. This, basically
I'm going to C&P this here, because I remember this happening.
Quote:Things like the micro-transactions, that caused the protests, were NOT discussed with the CSM. Pricing of Aurum store things certainly wasn't discussed with the CSM. I've never actually seen any CSM 6 member take credit fro CCP changing their direction, rather they've said that because of increased communication between CCP and the CSM the game has become better. Maybe *you* should run for the CSM and correct the terrible terrible injustice that's been done? |
knobber Jobbler
148
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 08:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
I guess people still don't understand what the CSM; they represent us, the player at the stakeholders table.
You might have noticed last year CCP wasted time on side projects, walking in stations, world of emogoth.
People then got mad and FiS got worked on and all the top things that players wanted got fixed got looked at, oddly enough in line with the short list the CSM wanted looked at.
They also took the massive backlog of player requests and prioritised them for CCP, so it could fit in with there development process.
Anyway, if CSM 6 was so bad, why do so many people, both players and CCP speak so positively? Right now the only negatives are from highsec publords who can't actually name any negatives specifically. |
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