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Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
86
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Posted - 2012.03.30 06:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Any of you who have lived in nullsec much have probably heard a titan or supercarrier pilot tell fleet members to be extremely careful not to bump the titan out of the safety of the POS bubble. Those of you who haven't witnessed that have still probably had some experience with bumping ships around in some capacity. As you may have noticed, a tiny, lightweight frigate can bump a battleship around pretty good. Not as well as another battleship perhaps, but far better than a tiny frigate ought to be able to.
I believe that a ships bumping ability should be a direct computation of its mass x its velocity at impact. If it were that way, a frigate (about 1,500,000kg with prop mod running) slamming into a battleship (about 100,000,000kg) at 3000m/s would push the battleship a whole 4.5m/s before the frigate was completely stopped. In fact, if you want to get really realistic, the frigate bouncing off the battleship would keep some of the impact momentum inside the frigate. The battleship might be pushed 2.25m/s, while the frigate might be bounced off at 1500m/s.
Not only does that make sense, but it would make the game a bit more "fair" if you will. Too often, players take advantage of this magic bumping effect and use a lot of small, cheap ships to bump a very large and expensive ship (many times the combined worth of the ships bumping it) and move it into a tactically critical position or for other offense reasons. Making ships mass and velocity directly affecting bumping power would force ship bumpers to put something more expensive at risk in order to get the job done. It would also decrease a lot of supercapital pilots' risk of heart attack.
After all, isn't that what EVE is about? Killing expensive targets with expensive targets? I'm all in favor of waking up the sleeping masses and showing them that EVE is a dark and cruel universe that will show no mercy for complacency. Therefore, just as I like to see vapid carebears lose their ridiculously expensive ships that they don't know how to defend, I also like to see certain complacent pirates learn the hard way that cheap tricks do not make you an expert at PVP.
Thank you, that is all. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
90
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Posted - 2012.03.30 09:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: After all, isn't that what EVE is about? [Killing expensive targets with expensive targets?
I certainly hope not!
But yes, bumping could use some attention. Though I think it has never been addressed before because EVE's physics are a fickle *****. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Zverofaust
Ascetic Virtues
45
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Posted - 2012.03.30 09:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote: In fact, if you want to get really realistic
Then the frigate would in fact explode on impact and there would be no silly magnet bounce crap going on. Titans would have probably even have their own gravitational pull affecting nearby objects. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2939
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Posted - 2012.03.30 09:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Those pesky frigs bump my dread - and they bump it good too!
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Cpt Greagor
Liquid Relief
283
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Posted - 2012.03.30 09:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Now why would you want to use an extremely simple, fundamental equation from physics like that?
Wouldn't it be soooo much easier to come up with a probably extremely complex and easily breakable equation like CCP uses? |
WisdomLikeSilence
The Cursed Navy Tactical Narcotics Team
89
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Posted - 2012.03.30 10:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
It would be great if when they bring in tesselation, if bumping took some of your cpu off, as it struggles to boost shields against impact.
The faster the impacter the more cpu is taken. |
Raiz Nhell
DEEP CORPS
54
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Posted - 2012.03.30 10:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maybe our ships have avoidance mechanisms...
Thats why we gain velocity, but take no damage at all...
The ship itself has self preservation mechanisms to avoid impact...
Not that far fetched really I'm so carebear my Pod bleeds rainbow...
Beers + nullsec + dodgy fit = Loss mail |
Nataliya Barre
Euro Core Mining Corporation
17
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Posted - 2012.03.30 10:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bump!
Couldnt resist |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
471
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Posted - 2012.03.30 10:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
I dint read the OP (sorry, it looked long and, well, long) but bumping is stupid. I mean, whats that all about? Being able to bump a huge freighter out of alignment by ramming it. That would mean death and destruction to the small ship and a little damage to the freighter.
I know, I know, the undock carnage at jita, the wrecks strewn all over pretty much everywhere etc etc. But teh answer shoudl never have been a ridiculous thing like bumping. Bumping is stupid. May as well just let ships fly through each other and ignore the reality aspect, since bumping is actually just as dumb anyway and would no longer be a usable (ridicluous) tactic in pvp.
And before the mandatory "Who bumped and killed you, you mad bro, you seem angry" Dont bother, bumping is also a tactic I actually use against people becasue it is there. I just think its dumb. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
512
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Posted - 2012.03.30 10:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
I always wanted a highslot 'ramming' module. Its damage should be affected by your own ships mass and speed, vs targets mass an angular (or similar).
As for calling bumping 'stupid' and wanting logic, there's alot of more stupid things going on in this game, and many have to from a game design perspective, simply put. You can only compromise so much. Bumping has always been a tactic where you can tell the good from the bad, how many motherships got killed before we had HICs? The tactic wasn't that hard, but not many could pull it off anyway.. you can still see when people are asked to "bump x", how people bump it the wrong way or just don't know what the hell they are doing.
Personally I find this is adding an element of the game, that makes PvP a bit more attractive. Always brings a smile to see PvP vids with properly executed bumps. I wouldn't want to see it gone. shiptoastin' liek a baws |
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Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
571
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Posted - 2012.03.30 11:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
perhaps with the idea of a new graphics update that introduced some addition phyics (asteroids bumping and shattering) and *fingers crossed* no more "bound boxes" we can hope for a bit more realism and yes, less bumping.
Although bumping people can be extremely funny, until somebody loses an eye :(. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Eternum Praetorian
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
521
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Posted - 2012.03.30 11:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Raiz Nhell wrote:Maybe our ships have avoidance mechanisms...
Thats why we gain velocity, but take no damage at all...
The ship itself has self preservation mechanisms to avoid impact...
Not that far fetched really
Avoidance would be angular/sideways vs the direction of the impacting object, not in the same direction of motion thus mimicking a "bump". Why? Because that is the easiest way to avoid an impact. So, no not really.
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Memrox
Memrox Corp
27
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Posted - 2012.03.30 12:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
I love me some shield on shield action. |
Factor Fett
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.03.30 12:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Raiz Nhell wrote:Maybe our ships have avoidance mechanisms... Thats why we gain velocity, but take no damage at all... The ship itself has self preservation mechanisms to avoid impact... Not that far fetched really Yes, in EVE, the anti-collision systems in the ships make the BUMP effect. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
88
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Posted - 2012.03.30 12:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
I agree with the OP. Massive ships should be only be effected slightly by tiny ships bumping them. The ships with massive mass should move only slightly, and the small ship should be thrown much further. I think this is one of the most unrealistic things about eve, right up there with the whole "warping through planets and stuff".
Bumping is pretty standard tactic against massive ships now, to the point of abuse imo. Though i wouldn't hold my breath that it would be changed, i would sure welcome it, and i'm sure physics would too. |
Im Super Gay
Hedion University Amarr Empire
33
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Posted - 2012.03.30 12:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
WisdomLikeSilence wrote:It would be great if when they bring in tesselation, if bumping took some of your cpu off, as it struggles to boost shields against impact.
The faster the impacter the more cpu is taken. Fool, you divert more POWER to the shields, not CPU. |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
1057
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Posted - 2012.03.30 14:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I believe that a ships bumping ability should be a direct computation of its mass x its velocity at impact.
An actual physics formula used correctly in my EVE!? Impossible! Unimaginable! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
457
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Posted - 2012.03.30 14:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eve Bumping is pretty silly. Also, if a ship can't be docked, much less some poor sap living in WH space, the least that could be allowed is have the ability to anchor a ship at a POS and lock it with a password for boarding. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
715
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Posted - 2012.03.30 14:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
While it would be nice to have more physics realism in Eve, there are some sacrifices made for having working game mechanics. That's why bumping isn't crashing (and taking damage). Bumping also works the way it is because it is currently the only really reliable way to counter station docking games (ram them off of the station) or gate games. Until the "unrealism" of a ship being able to suddenly dock into a station as it has tens of guns shooting it gets replaced by a realistic mechanic, bumping shouldn't be made more realistic.
I say this as a lowsec resident who deals with bumping as a tactic very often. It's annoying and not how things should work, but without it a lot of stuff would be broken. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
96
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Posted - 2012.03.30 18:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have an idea. Howabout when you get an aggression timer, it activates a docking countdown based on your ship's size, and if you undock with an aggression timer, you can't re-dock for the same amount of time.
Frigates: 10s Cruisers and Subcapital Industrials: 20s Battleships: 40s Capital Ships: 120s -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1107
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
If you try to bump a Titan with your Thorax, the Thorax explodes.
That is all.
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Nedes Betternaem
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
87
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:While it would be nice to have more physics realism in Eve, there are some sacrifices made for having working game mechanics. That's why bumping isn't crashing (and taking damage). Bumping also works the way it is because it is currently the only really reliable way to counter station docking games (ram them off of the station) or gate games. Until the "unrealism" of a ship being able to suddenly dock into a station as it has tens of guns shooting it gets replaced by a realistic mechanic, bumping shouldn't be made more realistic.
I say this as a lowsec resident who deals with bumping as a tactic very often. It's annoying and not how things should work, but without it a lot of stuff would be broken. Its pretty broken as is IMO. Honestly the station games thing would be pretty easily fixed. If something on grid has used an aggressive module against you in the last 5 mins, you cannot dock. You can however warp off grid and the timer will be removed.
Other than that, I honestly do not think bumping should be so easy or so risk free as it is now. Preferably it should take large ships to bump other large ships. But maybe introducing an amount of damage to the smaller ship would be interesting. (As now using capital ships as giant battering rams would be a valid tactic.) |
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
175
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Factor Fett wrote:Raiz Nhell wrote:Maybe our ships have avoidance mechanisms... Thats why we gain velocity, but take no damage at all... The ship itself has self preservation mechanisms to avoid impact... Not that far fetched really Yes, in EVE, the anti-collision systems on the ships make the BUMP effect. I think more of it as being caused by the warp field generators reaching too close a proximity and repelling each other like magnets. Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
96
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nedes Betternaem wrote:If something on grid has used an aggressive module against you in the last 5 mins, you cannot dock. You can however warp off grid and the timer will be removed. I think the timer should really be based on ship size, since it's carriers that take a long time to destroy. 5 minutes is too long for other ships. That's enough time for the station to clear out and then for a completely new group of hostiles to stumble upon you and pop you because you couldn't dock. Also, warping shouldn't clear the timer. Besides, people don't always want to warp anywhere when there are hostiles in system. Sure, you could warp to a friendly POS, but then you might get stuck there for a while. Some people would rather be stuck in the hangar.
Nedes Betternaem wrote:But maybe introducing an amount of damage to the smaller ship would be interesting. (As now using capital ships as giant battering rams would be a valid tactic.) Sounds shady, but I can't say I'd feel for the guy who lost a frigate because he couldn't move out of the way of a titan. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
719
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nedes Betternaem wrote:Honestly the station games thing would be pretty easily fixed. If something on grid has used an aggressive module against you in the last 5 mins, you cannot dock.
Do you know how many kills (and losses) I'd have by now if that were the case?! Damn!
That would be fine, but only if you could see what was outside station without undocking -- which is not now, nor has ever been a thing.
Windows are structural weaknesses. Capsuleers don't use them.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
719
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Sounds shady, but I can't say I'd feel for the guy who lost a frigate because he couldn't move out of the way of a titan.
I once bumped a titan about 15 km into a massive battleship blob, scattering all the battleships and throwing the titan out of alignment.
... Using a Thrasher. I warped directly into the titan, and got launched 100 km away myself.
It was hilarious, but I think it would have been equally hilarious if I splatted on the titan's hull and died spectacularly. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Reaver Glitterstim
Resurrected Darkness
96
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Windows are structural weaknesses. Capsuleers don't use them. Camera Drones aren't a structural weakness.
I don't think that perfect viewing outside the station should ever be doable--that job should be left up to teamwork efforts of corps and alliances. But it would be nice (and reasonable!) to have a scanner (I was gonna call it a radar!) or something with blips on it to show an approximate (though very crude) idea of what lies out there. In fact a somewhat useless but still realistic tweak to that would be to allow the scanner viewer to toggle between the four racial scanner types and each blip would show up brightest in its sensor type. I'm sure people would find hilarious uses for that too. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3605
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
This was done for a short while on the test server the QA managed to send a star based flying or was it a station?
I dont exactly remember but neither POS or Station should be clocking 45AU/s so the fix was removed until that could be resolved unfoutrunetly that will require a phsics engine rewrite which I serioulsy hope ccp considers for 2012 winter expansion.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3605
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Nedes Betternaem wrote:Honestly the station games thing would be pretty easily fixed. If something on grid has used an aggressive module against you in the last 5 mins, you cannot dock. Do you know how many kills (and losses) I'd have by now if that were the case?! Damn! That would be fine, but only if you could see what was outside station without undocking -- which is not now, nor has ever been a thing. Windows are structural weaknesses. Capsuleers don't use them.
Most of those windows are sensors panels with armor behind it. and somehwere inside correlating is a nice television screen for those who can afford it to look outisde and not get pandamonium.
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Nedes Betternaem
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
87
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Posted - 2012.03.30 19:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:I think the timer should really be based on ship size, since it's carriers that take a long time to destroy. 5 minutes is too long for other ships. That's enough time for the station to clear out and then for a completely new group of hostiles to stumble upon you and pop you because you couldn't dock. Also, warping shouldn't clear the timer. Besides, people don't always want to warp anywhere when there are hostiles in system. Sure, you could warp to a friendly POS, but then you might get stuck there for a while. Some people would rather be stuck in the hangar. The timer only starts when someone attacks you... so just having hostiles in system is not going to prevent you from docking. Yea sure a bunch of frigates can now lock you down if you refuse to warp, but how is that any different from those same frigates bumping you 10 KM from the dock? You do have a good idea though, the timer should be based on ship size... so a capital ship should be maybe 1-3 mins and a frigate should only be 10 seconds or so. However every time someone attacks you the timer should still reset to the full duration for the ship.
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Nedes Betternaem wrote:But maybe introducing an amount of damage to the smaller ship would be interesting. (As now using capital ships as giant battering rams would be a valid tactic.) Sounds shady, but I can't say I'd feel for the guy who lost a frigate because he couldn't move out of the way of a titan. Exactly, the more nimble your ship is the easier it should be to avoid it a capital ship. However I do kind of think that adding another weapon to the arsenal of the titan probably is not the best idea after further thought. Dreadnoughts in siege mode would be easy targets to ram. Also if you warp in to something you really have no control where you land... so maybe it would be better if bumping effectiveness would depend just on mass, and there should be no damage involved |
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