Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 06:54:00 -
[1]
Some of you might remember the huge haul of a thread I posted when I was elected for CSM. We passed on a some good ideas and we had some interesting responses from CCP.
And I was personally very pleased when I saw this. But it seems like CCP does listen.
If you read the Science and Industry forum, you will see a post with a screenshot of a new feature on SISI, Store fronts! This is one of the things that was requested, and it seems like we might get it just in time for Midas!
So lets call it already. Store fronts is going to be epic win for offering items inside and alliance and it's going to make it viable to actually sell packages of ships.
What do you think?
|
Avalira
Caldari Tau Ceti Green Card Free Trade Zone.
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 07:09:00 -
[2]
What are the current options when making a store? Can you list any kind of service? How does the search work? Can clients leave orders? Is there a store "bio" where you can leave lots of info?
------------- Selling the following:
|
Sugar Jugs
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 07:30:00 -
[3]
Easily the biggest problem will be finding what you actually want. I think CCP has learned a fair bit about filtering with contracts and market filters, so hopefully they go fairly nuts for store filters so we can actually find what we're looking for somewhat easily. I hope that stores will be brosable in space but I've not play tested it on sisi yet. Will go have a play. :)
|
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 08:08:00 -
[4]
Groovy. __________
Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail? |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 08:16:00 -
[5]
Very nice. A question that comes up. Can I link to a store? That is, get a bright orange link that I can paste in messages, chat, and corporate/personal description that will pop up my store when you click on it?
|
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 09:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tasko Pal Very nice. A question that comes up. Can I link to a store? That is, get a bright orange link that I can paste in messages, chat, and corporate/personal description that will pop up my store when you click on it?
I can't seem to drag and drop one as yet from anywhere, although obviously individual contracts can be with ease at the moment. It's also important to note that the system is largely incomplete, and as such it's possible it hasn't been implemented yet
The other slight limitation is that you can only open a storefront where you have a current office, it seems, which will probably add some competitiveness to office placement in major tradehubs
You can add multiple contracts in multiple tabs, and you can right-click a contract to promote it on the frontpage of your store
At the moment, you can search for stores like the in-game corporation recruitment (although I can only find mine :| ), you can add specific stores to favorites, as well as find specific stores you've used in the past or used often. __________
Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail? |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 09:43:00 -
[7]
Some very real concerns have already been raised in this thread.
I suggest we compile these concerns and I will make sure that the CSM passes on these concerns to CCP for our final CSM-CCP meeting in 1-2 months time.
So far the issues being raised are:
1. Filtering options 2. Amount of contracts any amount of people(Characters/corporations) can have
I would love to hear some feedback on the first issue especially. How granular should the filtering be?
|
Ricdic
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 09:44:00 -
[8]
I think storefronts will encourage people to specialise. For example in WTS LadyOfWrath sells mining supplies, everything from crystals to mackinaws/hulks/skiffs etc. I think this kind of store will be perfect for that kind of thing.
It should also open up brand awareness ingame in a big way. Right now I mainly know the people who spam the forums. I don't really know the people spamming Jita with hundreds of battleships per day as the market has always given been anti-social (in that you never know who you are buying from / selling too until after the sale if you take the time to check)
I look forward to seeing people open up cruiser stores, mining stores, etc etc, I think it will be very interesting to see how this goes. |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 09:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ricdic I think storefronts will encourage people to specialise. For example in WTS LadyOfWrath sells mining supplies, everything from crystals to mackinaws/hulks/skiffs etc. I think this kind of store will be perfect for that kind of thing.
It should also open up brand awareness ingame in a big way. Right now I mainly know the people who spam the forums. I don't really know the people spamming Jita with hundreds of battleships per day as the market has always given been anti-social (in that you never know who you are buying from / selling too until after the sale if you take the time to check)
I look forward to seeing people open up cruiser stores, mining stores, etc etc, I think it will be very interesting to see how this goes.
I totally agree with this.
|
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 10:12:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 13/10/2008 10:12:58 I'm not much of a carebear, but:
-At the moment, it seems like you can only get one storefront per corp...I can imagine this being an issue if corps have operations spread around in 0.0 or in empire/lowsec, etc. Considering its largely a customizable interface for contracts, I don't see any need to limit it to one per corp...especially because you can't move a storefront without closing all the contracts, closing the storefront, and readding the contracts
-There's only three contract types allowed at the moment: Item exchange, (private) loans, and (private) freeform. Why no auctions and couriers?
__________
Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail? |
|
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 10:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 13/10/2008 10:12:58 I'm not much of a carebear, but:
-At the moment, it seems like you can only get one storefront per corp...I can imagine this being an issue if corps have operations spread around in 0.0 or in empire/lowsec, etc. Considering its largely a customizable interface for contracts, I don't see any need to limit it to one per corp...especially because you can't move a storefront without closing all the contracts, closing the storefront, and readding the contracts
-There's only three contract types allowed at the moment: Item exchange, (private) loans, and (private) freeform. Why no auctions and couriers?
Fantastic. I will include this in the CSM issue which I will be doing about this
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 11:02:00 -
[12]
I like the shopfront idea primarily because it helps corporations supply their corp mates more directly and at the "now" speed of business. I would totally enjoy putting all of my market orders to the shop front to support my corp mates.
My only wish is that my store limits shoppers to those I "like". Some sort of standings functionality would allow me to give my "clientele" the deals I want them to have without having a casual (or competitor) shopper getting them as well.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Pies
Exanimo Inc
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 11:20:00 -
[13]
Perhaps extra contract skills are not the answer. Imagine you sell mining gear from ships to crystals, when sombody accepts a contract for one hulk it then needs to be relisted in the shop.
Maybe there should be a new contract type that allows you to sell x amount of hulks and people can accept as many as they want. Just like an item exchange except you choose your quantity.
If there is no way to choose quantity then the whole shop idea seems pointless to me. There is no point relisting a hulk every time one sells, you're better off using the market.
___________________ Tasty... |
Ambo
Cash Stack Deals
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 11:21:00 -
[14]
Storefronts is a great idea, I really love the principle. However, I do have some concerns.
1) There is no contracts API. This alone would push me away from using it because my dealings rely so much on out of game utilities to categorise, filter and collate the mass of information that comes from the raw transactions.
2) As someone else already pointed out, the limit on contracts would make it impossible for me to work with. I often hit my limit of 270 somthing orders so the 20 odd contracts a char can create (or 50 if you create a corp) is simply not enough.
3) Would it make business sense? I put my stuff for sale on the market because it will sell faster. If someone is looking for arbalest cruise launchers then they'll look on the market, they probably wont bother to check contracts/stores.
I guess the bigger question is: do storefronts really have a place in the current system? I think they don't have any functional benefit at all, they're simply fun. I want to have my stuff all in my little store... but I won't if I lose money doing it. I'm guessing the market is too ingrained in the game for it to go through any major changes but imo, for store fronts to take off, the market system itself will have to be changed. --------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 11:30:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ambo Storefronts is a great idea, I really love the principle. However, I do have some concerns.
1) There is no contracts API. This alone would push me away from using it because my dealings rely so much on out of game utilities to categorise, filter and collate the mass of information that comes from the raw transactions.
2) As someone else already pointed out, the limit on contracts would make it impossible for me to work with. I often hit my limit of 270 somthing orders so the 20 odd contracts a char can create (or 50 if you create a corp) is simply not enough.
3) Would it make business sense? I put my stuff for sale on the market because it will sell faster. If someone is looking for arbalest cruise launchers then they'll look on the market, they probably wont bother to check contracts/stores.
I guess the bigger question is: do storefronts really have a place in the current system? I think they don't have any functional benefit at all, they're simply fun. I want to have my stuff all in my little store... but I won't if I lose money doing it. I'm guessing the market is too ingrained in the game for it to go through any major changes but imo, for store fronts to take off, the market system itself will have to be changed.
I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the game. Storefronts, as I see them implemented here, look to be aimed at 0.0 corps who supply pre-fitted ships to their members. The only element that's not obviously available is the ability to restrict sales, but I'm guessing that just selecting "my alliance" here would restrict it suitably, right?
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compressionexpansion! WTF? |
Ambo
Cash Stack Deals
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 12:23:00 -
[16]
I guess you could be right... Shame though, I want to play with them too. --------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 12:25:00 -
[17]
Integrate with the Market as well as Contracts I'm not entirely sure that shops should 'just' use the contracts system, but should use the market for example as well, especially with using the market categories and browsing. The integration to the market system should be the same level as the demo has done with the contracts system.
Shops need to sell volume (ie the market) not just specialised stuff, which the contract system is better for. I will also echo the need for a far better search mechanism for contracts.
To give an example, if one of my preferred gun suppliers is Shar, and he and I have a long standing relationship of supplier and customer, me knowing he will bend over backwards to ensure I get the guns I need, and I'm happy my ISK is going to him maintaining this class A service for me. Then I need to buy something I don't use much, say a NOS, and browse the market for a NOS. While there's a cheap one, Shar is also selling at near best buy price, so seeing that, I'd much prefer to buy from him and maintain an existing relationship.
Therefore shops need to have both a contract listing and item-specific listing from the market to work properly.
Search The contract search functionality needs to be significantly boosted, and preferably the market categories introduced in it. I may want a Cap Recharger, but not necessary Selynne's Modifed Cap Recharger.
We will also need to search for shops specifically as well, and add shops to a 'Favourite shops' quickbar.
Advertising A mechanism can be introduced as a wonderful ISK sink to allow us to advertise, and boost the ranking of our shops in the search results. ISK goes to the station corporation, ie Caldari Navy in Jita 4-4, and stations have different rates.
Customisation At the very least allow a text area like the bio, where we can provide special offers, branding and a general customer experience - so an MOTD at least.
Corporation logos Can we also have a far more significant update of icons to the corporation logos as well, as they're a bit long in the tooth and largely irrelevant to the corporations they represent too, this instead of having the ability to customise our own images like alliances have... this will allow the shop front bios to be a little more than just plain old boring text.
Shop requirements To prevent anyone starting a shop and having shopspam, I suggest you need either a skill or some standings to be able to open a shop. Perhaps the capacity of the shop, ie the number of items able to list in it is based on skills/standings too...
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 13:22:00 -
[18]
agreed with pretty much everything horizontal said - maybe the shop skill can come under corp management tree -> Corporate Sales (allows x amount of corp store contracts per lvl)? ----------------------
CSM 08 Blog |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 14:47:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/10/2008 14:47:55 Settle down -- it's just a fancy way of showing off contracts.
So someone at CCP took the general contracts SQL query, narrowed it down with WHERE CORP="X" and stuck the results in a new window.
It's really less than underwhelming. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Ambo
Cash Stack Deals
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 14:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Alz Shado Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/10/2008 14:47:55 Settle down -- it's just a fancy way of showing off contracts.
So someone at CCP took the general contracts SQL query, narrowed it down with WHERE CORP="X" and stuck the results in a new window.
It's really less than underwhelming.
Sush you! We can have our dreams! --------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
|
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 15:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Alz Shado Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/10/2008 14:47:55 Settle down -- it's just a fancy way of showing off contracts.
So someone at CCP took the general contracts SQL query, narrowed it down with WHERE CORP="X" and stuck the results in a new window.
It's really less than underwhelming.
Agreed; not that it's a terrible idea, but it adds no new functionality. It's a good start if there are plans to add standings-based contracts or other stuff like that on top of all this, but there are several good reasons for most people not to use one:
1. It requires an office, which can be a significant expense if you set one up at or near a major trade hub. Also, offices are in very short supply in 0.0 space. 2. Volume will be lower, compared to using the market, especially for stuff that lots of people buy in small quantities. 3. You can compare prices much more easily on the market, whether buying or selling, with immediate access to trending information. 4. On the market, you always buy from the lowest-price seller and sell to the highest-bidding buyer. This is is not guaranteed when using contracts. --- DIY copying in Liekuri 20:1 mineral compression Eve Online folding@home team |
Alz Shado
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 15:37:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/10/2008 15:39:08 I would much prefer a system similar to the regional Market interface, except that "Show only in stock" is always selected.
All that would be needed is some easy to use interface that lists what corporations/alliances currently run storefronts in a given region. It could be as simple as a dropdown menu, or as complex as a multi-regional order comparison tool with customizable queries. Search "Friendly corporations who sell Meta 1+ items within 2 jumps of my current station"
Some benefits of the Market UI over the contracts system:
-The categories would already be listed. -Prices would be clear to reduce scamming. -Orders for an entire region can be seen at once. -Buy orders AND sell orders are available. -More than one trader in a corporation/alliance can operate in a station,
Some other features I'd like to see:
-With the proper rights given, traders would have the ability to modify any corporate order even ones they haven't personally listed -Private AI brokers who can add Modifiers to customize price lists, that exclude non-blues or to add "Service Charges" for neutral or unfriendly parties. -Delivery options that would automatically create corporate-limited Courier contracts.
//// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 15:38:00 -
[23]
I am absolutely shocked people are so happy about this.
I personally think storefronts are the biggest mistake CCP could possibly make. And no, I'm not exaggerating that. I truly believe storefronts are a HORRIBLE idea.
I've played way too many MMORPG's to simply sit quietly and let people prop this idea up as if it were good. Every single MMO I've played in the past that had storefronts ended up having a craptastic economy or upgraded the storefronts into a Market/Contracts like interface.
Storefronts are the old out of date way of handling trading in MMO's. The EVE Market/Contract system is the most advanced system in any MMORPG. Why would anyone want to go backwards?
Look at that screenshot! It isn't even letting you search by items, it's letting you search by the name of the store! That's worthless! The only use of this will be for alliances or for people who already know exactly what store you want. Otherwise you're just going to have to click on one store at a time, browse the random items in it, then click on the next one and randomly browse it, etc. How is that even remotely a good thing? Just let us search by the items we want, like we can on contracts now, and be done with it.
If you want to be able to search for types of items then modify the search ability on contracts to allow for more robust searches. If you want to be able to sell "packages" then modify contracts to allow it. Can't we just make contracts better, rather than adding in yet another place people have to go to search for crap?
|
Alz Shado
Ever Flow Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 15:47:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/10/2008 15:52:22
Originally by: Shadarle Storefronts are the old out of date way of handling trading in MMO's. The EVE Market/Contract system is the most advanced system in any MMORPG. Why would anyone want to go backwards?
To be fair, EVE's contract system might be the most advanced in any MMORPG, but it's still crap. Parasite-infested disease-riddled crap on top of a steaming dung heap in the middle of a festering swamp. In the rain
Your biggest concerns (and mine too) about marketplaces stem from the ability to do anything useful with them. The interface -- which looks based on contracts -- does more to hinder the experience then it does to promote trade. There are already five different contract types, two of which are 100% scams: Freeform and Auction, with Item Exchange at only 75%. Intra-regional searches without intra-regional purchasing options is a complete waste. The item browser can take 30 seconds or longer to tell you what you don't want, and even then with only a small chance of actually finding it. Was it named in the description? Was it just a module fit to a ship?
I would almost rather we went back to the old Escrow system. Scamming that was easy, but so was avoiding the obvious ones. It was simple to use, it was generously stocked, and it added the ebayesque experience of browsing the market without looking for anything specific.
In short, anything that replaces Contracts is a good thing in my book. Even if it's a terrible system, it can't get much worse than what we have now. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 15:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shadarle Can't we just make contracts better, rather than adding in yet another place people have to go to search for crap?
I like having the option of dealing exclusively with someone's orders at my convenience instead of dealing with the open market at large. The open market "at large" leaves a lot to be desired as proven by the number of trade alts people regularly use. From scamming to unknowingly funding your most hated enemy, the open market system is not perfect. If I go to a specific storefront it is because I know the person/people involved and prefer the extra step (and potentially extra isk) going to them. A storefront makes it so that I don't have to necessarily wait for them to be online or respond to an eve mail. Also if I get ripped off, I generally know who and how to get my fair share of flesh in return. (Did you notice that NPC corp people can't do storefronts?) I understand how you might dislike this idea though. No one likes you well enough to actually shop at your storefront so the open market is your only feeding ground. ( ) That being said: I don't think this new system is going to be successful in satisfying the business 2 business desires, in the community, that is the primary push for storefronts. Not as it currently stands.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 16:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
but there are several good reasons for most people not to use one:
1. It requires an office, which can be a significant expense if you set one up at or near a major trade hub. Also, offices are in very short supply in 0.0 space. 2. Volume will be lower, compared to using the market, especially for stuff that lots of people buy in small quantities. 3. You can compare prices much more easily on the market, whether buying or selling, with immediate access to trending information. 4. On the market, you always buy from the lowest-price seller and sell to the highest-bidding buyer. This is is not guaranteed when using contracts.
1. I want this system to require offices, it forces those of us that are in it to stake a claim.
2. I see the shop system more for rigged ships and special items not the run of the mill stuff.
3. If we use the office as a limiting number of shops then I'm not too worried about tring to compare rigged ships to other rigged ships.
4. Why are you using contracts to sell normal run of the mill items that can go up on the market?
Originally by: Shadarle I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 16:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Shadarle Can't we just make contracts better, rather than adding in yet another place people have to go to search for crap?
I like having the option of dealing exclusively with someone's orders at my convenience instead of dealing with the open market at large.
The open market "at large" leaves a lot to be desired as proven by the number of trade alts people regularly use. From scamming to unknowingly funding your most hated enemy, the open market system is not perfect.
These are exactly why the open market and contracts are so impressive. They allow for a completely open and free market for goods. A system which didn't allow for scams would be a horrible one and would remove one of the greatest aspects of the EVE economy. Without scams reputation is worth nothing. The ability to scam, or more precisely, the ability to get the less informed to pay more than they should is essential to a fully functional market. Without risk there is no reward.
Originally by: Shar Tegral
That being said: I don't think this new system is going to be successful in satisfying the business 2 business desires, in the community, that is the primary push for storefronts. Not as it currently stands.
We both agree here. This will basically end up being almost un-used... and will be a total waste of dev time. In fact it already seems like they've wasted the time.
|
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 16:28:00 -
[28]
There are very few 'special items' in eve, and the existing contract system already allows us to search for them across the whole universe. Rigged ships are an interesting example, but why would anyone choose to produce and sell them? A rig that isn't already attached to a ship can be sold for a lot more than one that's stuck on one particular ship until it gets destroyed. --- DIY copying in Liekuri 20:1 mineral compression Eve Online folding@home team |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 16:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro There are very few 'special items' in eve, and the existing contract system already allows us to search for them across the whole universe. Rigged ships are an interesting example, but why would anyone choose to produce and sell them? A rig that isn't already attached to a ship can be sold for a lot more than one that's stuck on one particular ship until it gets destroyed.
And if rigged ships are the goal it would seem there would be a way to modify contracts to allow them... seems a lot better than developing an entirely new place to have to browse one by one.
|
|
CCP Lingorm
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 16:44:00 -
[30]
I have replied to this thread.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=895966
We are aware of the Contract limit and are looking at ways to solve the problem.
CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader
Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |