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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.10.15 09:15:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Shadarle
Second, a few people seem to continue to perpetuate the idea that it is BAD to sell your enemies items. We've discussed this here before. The entire reason you put stuff on the market is to make money, thus selling anything benefits you. Also think of it this way. If your enemy is buying from you he is transferring money out of his wallet and sending it to your wallet. It also means he is not producing that item himself. So lets think about this.
You could either
A) let him buy it from someone else, meaning you don't make your 5-10-20%+ markup and instead some random person gets it but at least your enemy is still paying that markup. B) sell it to him yourself and get that markup you're charging and you're forcing your enemy to pay that markup too. C) force your enemy to build these items himself, meaning he no longer has to pay anyone that markup and you no longer get that sale.
D) Your enemy has to do without.
While I get the impression that a lot of the people in favor of this are just going to cost their enemies a couple of isk on a raven buy, the strategy can be effective. A common example follows capture of a 0.0 outpost. The former occupants are denied access and any goods contained therein must be sold to the victors (or to other allowed residents of the station from which the owner of the station gets a cut).
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Mythen
Middleton and Mercer LLP Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.15 18:34:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Mythen on 15/10/2008 18:34:23 Store fronts are an interesting idea, but I have a question:
Can I only see storefronts from within a station, or can I search for them in a system or constellation? A search feature would be very useful in low supply areas, particularly if it can be filtered by item types, etc. It would also add more utility to separate storefronts from contracts.
Thank you, LaVista, for letting us know about this and for opening it up for discussion.
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Mythen
Middleton and Mercer LLP Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.15 18:34:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Mythen on 15/10/2008 18:34:23 Store fronts are an interesting idea, but I have a question:
Can I only see storefronts from within a station, or can I search for them in a system or constellation? A search feature would be very useful in low supply areas, particularly if it can be filtered by item types, etc. It would also add more utility to separate storefronts from contracts.
Thank you, LaVista, for letting us know about this and for opening it up for discussion.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.10.15 23:50:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Tasko Pal
Originally by: Shadarle
Second, a few people seem to continue to perpetuate the idea that it is BAD to sell your enemies items. We've discussed this here before. The entire reason you put stuff on the market is to make money, thus selling anything benefits you. Also think of it this way. If your enemy is buying from you he is transferring money out of his wallet and sending it to your wallet. It also means he is not producing that item himself. So lets think about this.
You could either
A) let him buy it from someone else, meaning you don't make your 5-10-20%+ markup and instead some random person gets it but at least your enemy is still paying that markup. B) sell it to him yourself and get that markup you're charging and you're forcing your enemy to pay that markup too. C) force your enemy to build these items himself, meaning he no longer has to pay anyone that markup and you no longer get that sale.
D) Your enemy has to do without.
While I get the impression that a lot of the people in favor of this are just going to cost their enemies a couple of isk on a raven buy, the strategy can be effective. A common example follows capture of a 0.0 outpost. The former occupants are denied access and any goods contained therein must be sold to the victors (or to other allowed residents of the station from which the owner of the station gets a cut).
Player owned structures and NPC stations are totally different beasts. I would always agree that any player run structure should grant that player full control over who uses it and who it shoots at, etc. On the other hand, I think NPC stations should have 100% open markets in them.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.10.16 01:44:00 -
[65]
Storefronts as an extension of the contract system pretty much sucks balls. I'd rather have in corp/alliance contracts be able to persist longer than some hackneyed contract overlay.
Heck, I'd love to see longer contract times (make it skill based) where creation fee is duration dependent. Shorter contracts cost less to set up. More effort on the part of the player to get a savings...
But I'm totally bearish on storefronts.
(Just realized that if storefronts allowed for longer persistance and modification of untouched contracts/offers it might be worth while, perhaps.)
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Lo Lightshard
Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.16 04:38:00 -
[66]
I'm interested in this. My corp has tried to sell to our alliance via contracts but it is too unorganised and generally under stocked -- people just don't tend to go to contracts to buy lower value, market listable items.
Specialised stores might help focus these kind of sales in systems where there is no market. If, as alliance member, I knew there was a T2 PVP module store close by that was always stocked then they would pay a premium for a quick fit.
Does anyone who has played with this know if you can put up a contract for 100 modules and have them sell in single units or do you need to create 100 contracts? If the latter then ...
[IMA6E REMOVED] |
Demtalin le'Mercennaire
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.16 10:39:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Demtalin le''Mercennaire on 16/10/2008 10:41:52
Originally by: Shar Tegral ...unknowingly funding your most hated enemy, the open market system is not perfect.
If I go to a specific storefront it is because I know the person/people involved and prefer the extra step (and potentially extra isk) going to them.
This is the only real improvement I can personally see in shop fronts. But that could be changed by adding the ability to see the name of the person you're about to buy from before you do it, and for the market to not always force you to take the cheapest order if you're buying from a more expensive order in the same station.
They would be fun though.
[EDIT] After reading some more posts, I want to make it clear that the bit about trading with your enemy, I have a problem when he gets my money, not the other way around. -------- Billy Jean is not my lover |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.10.16 12:02:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Shar Tegral ...unknowingly funding your most hated enemy, the open market system is not perfect.
If I go to a specific storefront it is because I know the person/people involved and prefer the extra step (and potentially extra isk) going to them.
Originally by: Demtalin le'Mercennaire But that could be changed by adding the ability to see the name of the person you're about to buy from before you do it, and for the market to not always force you to take the cheapest order if you're buying from a more expensive order in the same station.
Firstly let me state that the only reason I am for this kind of thing is because I believe that the marketplace, as it is right now, divides and squanders consumer power. Consumer power was a very strong tool we used during our Civil Rights era. With such a big and complex game like Eve, especially with such a powerful economic focus, consumer power being denigrated like it is just boggles my mind. Now, that being said, having the market tell you who you are buying from before you buy used to actually be in the game. It was taken out because the market came to a stand still. While anonymity and LPFO ( lowest price first out) practice leads to some interesting games for people to play it does grease the marketplace. (And yes, I noticed you asked for the removal of LPFO but I don't think that is wise at all for the aforementioned reason.) If there were individuated marketplaces, as I've always said I wanted, where people could selectively trade (like going to a friend's store instead of the local megamart) in addition to the normal megamart-like marketplace that exists we'd have the best of both worlds indeed. I do not doubt that the majority of players would still use the public marketplace. Lazy ass factor is a powerful one and will never be overcome no matter what game mechanics are changed. However there will be enough people who will look at what region they are in; say to themselves, "Hmmmm, I've got a friend in Domain"; and proceed to their store hoping to satisfy their shopping needs as much as they can before going to the public markets.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
SencneS
Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2008.10.16 23:14:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Shar Tegral If there were individuated marketplaces, as I've always said I wanted, where people could selectively trade (like going to a friend's store instead of the local megamart) in addition to the normal megamart-like marketplace that exists we'd have the best of both worlds indeed.
This is actually the best thing the Storefront could hope to offer. That and a few key concepts that have yet to be mentioned in this thread like...
The fact a storefront is more difficult to navigate then the megamart, you could potentually sell items cheaper then the megamart. Word of mouth spreads about a slightly cheaper price at Storefront-R-us and people stop going to the megamart.
For the traders who want to undercut on the megamart now need to check the storefronts to make sure they are still the cheapest. Even though lazyness is powerful, cheapest is it's bestfriend. This will slow down 0.01 traders as they have more areas to check.
Amarr for Life |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.16 23:40:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Shadarle
Player owned structures and NPC stations are totally different beasts. I would always agree that any player run structure should grant that player full control over who uses it and who it shoots at, etc. On the other hand, I think NPC stations should have 100% open markets in them.
This is why I believe the storefronts are opening up. Currently in 0.0 there are traders who can push and pull the markets because there are so few suppliers. So a great deal of the items are put up in alliance and corp contracts but it is too hard to find what it is that you are looking for.
If I understand the system, then it will require that the corp has an office in the station so that won't be too much of a problem for the 0.0 players and from my time in the drone regions, something like this is really needed.
Originally by: Shadarle I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu |
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Sophie Daigneau
Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.17 03:10:00 -
[71]
Let me tell you guys what its like out in 0.0, and then maybe you can see where there is potential for Storefronts.
In my particular alliance we have standardized battleship fittings. These fittings are extremely specific, and generally require fairly high skills to fly properly. Assuming you do fly a ship with the proper fittings and have the skills, you get rewarded with a reimbursement subsidy if you die.
Now from a producers standpoint, this policy has led to a large number of customers who all want the same thing. In this case the "same thing" means as many as 30 individual items grouped together in a single contract. From a customers standpoint, such a contract is ideal since they won't have to open their market window and search through dozens of items, buying one of each. A contract means one click shopping. From my perspective, filling these contracts means a lot of clicking to get them setup.
This is why I say what we really need from storefronts is an ability to create a single master contract, and then have an ability to keep recreating that contract over and over again without needing to go through all the button clicks of adding all the items again.
From a customers view, they should log into a storefront and see someone has a Scorpion package, a Megathron package, and a Dominix package for sale and be able to buy any with a single click. From a producers view, when a customer buys a Scorpion package, the storefront should have an ability to automatically recreate a new contract with the exact same items and price as the one that was just filled. This is the type of functionality that would actually make storefronts useful to use instead of being just an annoying way of organizing contracts.
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CCP Lingorm
C C P
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Posted - 2008.10.17 08:49:00 -
[72]
CCP Fendahl is going to do a Blog and then a Live Blog question and answer session on store fronts.
So read the blog when it comes out and then prep your questions for the live blog.
CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader
Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.
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Demtalin le'Mercennaire
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.17 12:08:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Shar Tegral [justify] Originally by: Shar Tegral ...unknowingly funding your most hated enemy, the open market system is not perfect.
If I go to a specific storefront it is because I know the person/people involved and prefer the extra step (and potentially extra isk) going to them.
Originally by: Demtalin le'Mercennaire But that could be changed by adding the ability to see the name of the person you're about to buy from before you do it, and for the market to not always force you to take the cheapest order if you're buying from a more expensive order in the same station.
Now, that being said, having the market tell you who you are buying from before you buy used to actually be in the game. It was taken out because the market came to a stand still. While anonymity and LPFO (lowest price first out) practice leads to some interesting games for people to play it does grease the marketplace. (And yes, I noticed you asked for the removal of LPFO but I don't think that is wise at all for the aforementioned reason.)
I wasn't around when these options were in the game (joined Nov-2006), so thanks for the info. How did showing names bring the market to a stand still? I have a few theories on this but I don't think any of them are right. And if LPFO works much better than the previous system then it should stay in :)
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau In my particular alliance we have standardized battleship fittings. These fittings are extremely specific, and generally require fairly high skills to fly properly. Assuming you do fly a ship with the proper fittings and have the skills, you get rewarded with a reimbursement subsidy if you die.
We have a similar system, except ours are more of a strongly encouraged guideline, we can have our own fit as long as certain criteria are met, and we don't have the subsidy. The point I'm getting to is I agree that pre assembled alliance certified BS setups are useful and would benefit from shopfronts. -------- Billy Jean is not my lover |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.10.17 12:20:00 -
[74]
Originally by: CCP Lingorm CCP Fendahl is going to do a Blog and then a Live Blog question and answer session on store fronts.
So read the blog when it comes out and then prep your questions for the live blog.
Thanks for the note Lingorm! |
Manalapan
Dynasty Banking
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Posted - 2008.10.17 20:58:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Let me tell you guys what its like out in 0.0, and then maybe you can see where there is potential for Storefronts.
In my particular alliance we have standardized battleship fittings. These fittings are extremely specific, and generally require fairly high skills to fly properly. Assuming you do fly a ship with the proper fittings and have the skills, you get rewarded with a reimbursement subsidy if you die.
Now from a producers standpoint, this policy has led to a large number of customers who all want the same thing. In this case the "same thing" means as many as 30 individual items grouped together in a single contract. From a customers standpoint, such a contract is ideal since they won't have to open their market window and search through dozens of items, buying one of each. A contract means one click shopping. From my perspective, filling these contracts means a lot of clicking to get them setup.
This is why I say what we really need from storefronts is an ability to create a single master contract, and then have an ability to keep recreating that contract over and over again without needing to go through all the button clicks of adding all the items again.
From a customers view, they should log into a storefront and see someone has a Scorpion package, a Megathron package, and a Dominix package for sale and be able to buy any with a single click. From a producers view, when a customer buys a Scorpion package, the storefront should have an ability to automatically recreate a new contract with the exact same items and price as the one that was just filled. This is the type of functionality that would actually make storefronts useful to use instead of being just an annoying way of organizing contracts.
Quick question on this...how does the current contract system fail at this? It is really easy to make a contract with all the items packaged together (hell the ship is even fitted when you buy it) and if you have this standardization it would not be a big deal to search for a scorpion and find the package that costs how much the package should and check it out.
Consumer Power that Shar was talking about gives an excellent reason why this should be implemented but the issue with this reason is that how does that essentially conflict with the current market. It allows friends to help friends when they need things but the contract system does this quite well enough.
The pro with store fronts is that it could very well be the foundation for a lot of industrial and market place growth in EVE. We have seen many ideas come through like 'Used Ships' 'Custom Modules' 'Custom Rigs' to just name a few. Most of these ideas had the issue of how could that work with the current market system. If you have storefronts there is your solution it provides a foundation for the development of these features that could inevitably create a much larger economy with more specialization. Having store fronts can create the current real world consumer system of raw materials (mining) -> production -> distribution -> retail -> consumer. This provides firstly a ton of jobs in eve that can be utilized. All of a sudden distribution becomes more vital that it currently is in eve (everything is in one place) and more specialization which leads to more market growth. Now I know this is kind of a big slippery slope but think of the potential that this concept has if implemented correct....CCP please do it right...please?
Dynasty Banking |
Sophie Daigneau
Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.18 00:04:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Manalapan
Quick question on this...how does the current contract system fail at this? It is really easy to make a contract with all the items packaged together (hell the ship is even fitted when you buy it) and if you have this standardization it would not be a big deal to search for a scorpion and find the package that costs how much the package should and check it out.
From a consumer standpoint, the current system works great. From a producers standpoint, it fails miserably. Imagine I have a corp hangar filled with hundreds of T2 modules, ammo, ships, drones, and scripts. In order to make the proper contract, I need to go through my hangar, and split each one of those stacks into the proper quantity for an individual ship, then drag each split stack to a new window to create the contract. When I'm done, I get to do all that clicking all over again for another ship.
Remember in 0.0 its not unusual for a hardcore pvper to go through several battleships in a week. In that instance, saving them extra clicks to get their ships fitted can really add up to a lot of time.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.10.18 00:27:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Imagine I have a corp hangar filled with hundreds of T2 modules, ammo, ships, drones, and scripts. In order to make the proper contract, I need to go through my hangar, and split each one of those stacks into the proper quantity for an individual ship, then drag each split stack to a new window to create the contract. When I'm done, I get to do all that clicking all over again for another ship.
Well I don't have to remember 0.0 as I tend to be in it regularly. That's beside the point. From the above and your previous statements you are not doing market trading m'dear. You are doing logistics. You are supplying, with a nominal fee, made to order configurations. And it sounds like you are doing it from very remote. I can see your desire for an improved interface but let us be honest, improvement in your less than average activities is not for the benefit of everyone. Just those few in your particular circumstance. The idea here is to make changes that assist on a wide basis. For instance, in your case, you would no longer have to package anything up at all. You'd just put the supplies on the market and only those who you do business with would be able to purchase from you. Of course that means you'd have to be in that region to do it, no more of those safe in high sec make 0.0 contract bundles, but it would be an improvement for the many. Not just a select, even though needy, few.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Sophie Daigneau
Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.18 02:02:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Well I don't have to remember 0.0 as I tend to be in it regularly. That's beside the point.
From the above and your previous statements you are not doing market trading m'dear. You are doing logistics. You are supplying, with a nominal fee, made to order configurations. And it sounds like you are doing it from very remote. I can see your desire for an improved interface but let us be honest, improvement in your less than average activities is not for the benefit of everyone. Just those few in your particular circumstance. The idea here is to make changes that assist on a wide basis.
For instance, in your case, you would no longer have to package anything up at all. You'd just put the supplies on the market and only those who you do business with would be able to purchase from you. Of course that means you'd have to be in that region to do it, no more of those safe in high sec make 0.0 contract bundles, but it would be an improvement for the many.
Not just a select, even though needy, few.
Selling via the market opens up as many problems as it solves. The biggest is that if you *want* to sell your product to your alliance at a discount, you can't do that without risking hostiles buying and relisting your product at a large markup. For a 0.0 industrialist, profit isn't necessarily the #1 motive like it would be in an empire based operation. Contracts solve most of the problems that the market presents, the only drawback to them is the tediousness in setting them up.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.10.19 01:27:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Alz Shado Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/10/2008 14:47:55 Settle down -- it's just a fancy way of showing off contracts.
So someone at CCP took the general contracts SQL query, narrowed it down with WHERE CORP="X" and stuck the results in a new window.
It's really less than underwhelming.
Agreed; not that it's a terrible idea, but it adds no new functionality.
As I understood, it added a way for corporations to show that they have a continuous supply of a given item. So people can go to the storefront and make as many orders for something as they want, whereas before they were limited to what's in the contracts page.
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Sophie Daigneau
Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.22 15:30:00 -
[80]
There are now these things called "offers" on sisi that are connected to storefronts. Its not yet clear exactly what they do because as best I can tell they are broken. I'm still holding a little bit of hope that something good comes out of them.
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Faraelle Brightman
Gallente Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.10.24 05:51:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
My only wish is that my store limits shoppers to those I "like". Some sort of standings functionality would allow me to give my "clientele" the deals I want them to have without having a casual (or competitor) shopper getting them as well.
This, please. And because I'm involved in a militia, I'd want the ability to do contracts avalible to a militia like there currently are for corps and alliances.
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